"Sorcs now gets a unique source of penetration buff to their group instead of Minor Prophecy"

hoangdz

I hope ZOS understands that Critical Surge requires dealing crit damage to proc, while Power Surge requires critically healing to proc. This new passive better give 5k pen or something then because losing a 6% crit chance while your class depends on it just sounds off to me, especially when penetration is easily accessible via so many sources.

AScarlato

As a templar I get armor. Thanks I guess.

SneaK

hoangdz wrote: »

I hope ZOS understands that Critical Surge requires dealing crit damage to proc, while Power Surge requires critically healing to proc. This new passive better give 5k pen or something then because losing a 6% crit chance while your class depends on it just sounds off to me, especially when penetration is easily accessible via so many sources.

Maybe they plan on moving crit focuses out of the Sorc kit?

Pen would make sense to me from a thematic perspective, then again, DK moving into Crit made no sense at all.

Maybe they’re just throwing darts at the wall, I dunno.

ItsNotLiving

SneaK wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

I hope ZOS understands that Critical Surge requires dealing crit damage to proc, while Power Surge requires critically healing to proc. This new passive better give 5k pen or something then because losing a 6% crit chance while your class depends on it just sounds off to me, especially when penetration is easily accessible via so many sources.

Maybe they plan on moving crit focuses out of the Sorc kit?

Pen would make sense to me from a thematic perspective, then again, DK moving into Crit made no sense at all.

Maybe they’re just throwing darts at the wall, I dunno.

They have been throwing darts at the wall since 2020

Wuuffyy

AScarlato wrote: »

As a templar I get armor. Thanks I guess.

This, I didn’t like this. Damage buffs are far more likely to generally cause inclusivity over defense ones.

There are 8 roles in a trial typically that are not support- reworked Templar will have to be pretty darn special for most minmax groups to feel incentivized/obligated to bring a pure class and damage focused Templar only capable of supplying THAT buff.

SneaK

Wuuffyy wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

As a templar I get armor. Thanks I guess.

This, I didn’t like this. Damage buffs are far more likely to generally cause inclusivity over defense ones.

There are 8 roles in a trial typically that are not support- reworked Templar will have to be pretty darn special for most minmax groups to feel incentivized/obligated to bring a pure class and damage focused Templar only capable supplying THAT buff.

Temp also got mostly defensive masteries, really going all into that pigeon hole I guess.

Firstmep

AScarlato wrote: »

As a templar I get armor. Thanks I guess.

The only one of the 4 original classes that doesn't get an offensive group buff.
I'm sure raid leads will be bending over backwards trying to get a templar in the group to provide a tiny amount of extra armor that will surely protect against the myriad of 1 shot mechanics.

SkaiFaith

SneaK wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

As a templar I get armor. Thanks I guess.

This, I didn’t like this. Damage buffs are far more likely to generally cause inclusivity over defense ones.

There are 8 roles in a trial typically that are not support- reworked Templar will have to be pretty darn special for most minmax groups to feel incentivized/obligated to bring a pure class and damage focused Templar only capable supplying THAT buff.

Temp also got mostly defensive masteries, really going all into that pigeon hole I guess.

A pigeon hole some praise as "identity".

I just hope Penetration added to Sorc doesn't mean my Warden is going to lose Deep Fissure...

Dojohoda

Sorcs apply that deadly snap, crackle, pop combo and makes a big hole with the pop, so that sounds thematically legit.

SneaK

SkaiFaith wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

As a templar I get armor. Thanks I guess.

This, I didn’t like this. Damage buffs are far more likely to generally cause inclusivity over defense ones.

There are 8 roles in a trial typically that are not support- reworked Templar will have to be pretty darn special for most minmax groups to feel incentivized/obligated to bring a pure class and damage focused Templar only capable supplying THAT buff.

Temp also got mostly defensive masteries, really going all into that pigeon hole I guess.

A pigeon hole some praise as "identity".

I just hope Penetration added to Sorc doesn't mean my Warden is going to lose Deep Fissure...

I don’t know many folks praising the Templar masteries if I’m being honest.

VinnyGambini

AScarlato wrote: »

As a templar I get armor. Thanks I guess.

Yea, templars lose damage and gain armor. Fantastic idea.

Seriously why templar gets armor and dk gets damage? Isn't DK tanky oriented class? Doing this the opposite direction makes more sense don't you think?

ceruulean

Templar has a spear line, shouldn't they be getting more penetration? Lol

To be fair Aedric spear is overloaded with minor protection and berserk on cast.

Some people in discord are suggesting a magical dmg done debuff. That would be cool.

ZhuJiuyin

The changes to Sorc in U51 highlight the developers' ignorance of Sorc!

Sorc's Surge meant it needed more Critical attributes than other classes to effectively utilize its class skills. If U51 removed Sorc's passive Critical attribute, Sorc would be forced to use subclasses to acquire Critical attributes from other sources, or to use specific sets to obtain them.

Not to mention, U50's Sorc Class Mastery already forced Sorc to stack maximum resources to gain sufficient bonuses, which many had already argued was unnecessary for Sorc.

4th Place: Maximum Resources, Critical Damage (after reaching the cap), Penetration (after reaching the cap)
3rd Place: Weapon Damage
2nd Place: Critical Damage (before reaching the cap), Penetration (before reaching the cap)
1st Place: Critical

Therefore, Sorc Class Mastery essentially encourages players to stack the least important stat to obtain the third most important stat. So much so that most of the time, Sorc players won't even consider using sets like Grace of the Ancients, Death Dealer's Fete, Crafty Alfiq, etc., to gain the Font of Power bonus. Because Sorc lacks Critical, Critical Damage, and Penetration, these three stats are more important to Sorc than Weapon Damage.

Now the developers are actually taking away the most important attribute (Critical) from Sorc and replacing it with a secondary attribute—Penetration (and even the least important attribute in some situations)? This will not only weaken PvE but also PvP. Even without Cassandra, one could predict the catastrophic consequences of removing Sorc's Critical passive.

VinnyGambini

Simple solution:
Templar unchanged
Sorc unchanged
Dk gets armor
Nb gets crit dmg buff as crit dmg oriented class.

Ecgberht_confused

Looks like zos is doubling down on sorc being a pvp only class. But honestly even for pvp this isn't great, since we need crit for surge. This was the only thing in sorc's kit that gave crit.

Umbracat449

If they cant make a good sorc through all the changes coming, I won't be coming back to this game.

Tomes was one nail in the coffin, continuing to stuff up sorc will be the final nails.

Turtle_Bot

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Simple solution:
Templar unchanged
Sorc unchanged
Dk gets armor
Nb gets crit dmg buff as crit dmg oriented class.

It's not often we agree on things, but this right here is exactly how I thought ZOS would divide the "unique" class buffs if they were to ever unify weapon/spell damage and weapon/spell crit. It just makes sense and fits the classes design wise to do it this way.

NB's entire design wants to force through a single massive crit (guaranteed crit on cloak + merciless being the hardest hitting ability in the game + plenty of crit damage synergies and bonuses) so it would make sense to have NB grant a unique crit damage buff as it's unique group contribution since that's now NB typically plays already.

Sorcs design wants to either hit as many times as possible (armaments, static reverb mastery, class flourish for non-pets, heavy attack ticks from lightning staff) or have as high of a crit chance as possible to ensure the classes "HoT" in Surge procs as often as possible since the class doesn't have a regular set and forget HoT like other classes have, so it would make sense to have Sorcerers grant the crit chance buff as it's unique group contribution since that's how Sorcerer already wants to play.

---

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_NickG @ZOS_Gilliam What ZOS has proposed for the "unique class bonuses" (removing crit chance from sorc) is just completely backwards and goes against how this class typically operates. Some clarification on whether ZOS will be reworking Sorcerer entirely to no longer be so tied down to crit chance or multi-hits for healing over time or if this was a misunderstanding of the class itself and will be corrected before PTS for U51 goes live would be appreciated.

Vaqual

No, please, not more crit damage interactions for NB, I can't anymore with this nonsense.

I'd rather see these group buffs dumpstered.

Umbracat449

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Simple solution:
Templar unchanged
Sorc unchanged
Dk gets armor
Nb gets crit dmg buff as crit dmg oriented class.

It's not often we agree on things, but this right here is exactly how I thought ZOS would divide the "unique" class buffs if they were to ever unify weapon/spell damage and weapon/spell crit. It just makes sense and fits the classes design wise to do it this way.

NB's entire design wants to force through a single massive crit (guaranteed crit on cloak + merciless being the hardest hitting ability in the game + plenty of crit damage synergies and bonuses) so it would make sense to have NB grant a unique crit damage buff as it's unique group contribution since that's now NB typically plays already.

Sorcs design wants to either hit as many times as possible (armaments, static reverb mastery, class flourish for non-pets, heavy attack ticks from lightning staff) or have as high of a crit chance as possible to ensure the classes "HoT" in Surge procs as often as possible since the class doesn't have a regular set and forget HoT like other classes have, so it would make sense to have Sorcerers grant the crit chance buff as it's unique group contribution since that's how Sorcerer already wants to play.

---

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_NickG @ZOS_Gilliam What ZOS has proposed for the "unique class bonuses" (removing crit chance from sorc) is just completely backwards and goes against how this class typically operates. Some clarification on whether ZOS will be reworking Sorcerer entirely to no longer be so tied down to crit chance or multi-hits for healing over time or if this was a misunderstanding of the class itself and will be corrected before PTS for U51 goes live would be appreciated.

Argh, I was wondering what you'd think of this sorc proposal, as a font of good sense and understanding of sorc, and I'm sorry to see it isn't winning your approval.

I wonder why it is they've just struggled so badly for so many years now to make a good sorcerer class.

Major_Mangle

Got to love how ZOS keeps giving templar more survivability/tankiness (it doesn´t need it) and sorc more damage (it doens´t need more damage). So out of touch it´s insane.

Pinktraining

As a Nightblade player, I also believe that the u51 changes were an excessive nerf to Sorc/Templar. Frankly, I didn't even anticipate that ZOS would consider removing the critical buff from Sorc, because any experienced player can clearly point out that this is tantamount to cutting off a hand from Sorc and completely destroying the Dark Magic line.
Even from the Nightblade player's perspective, I worry that if the u51 changes aren't retracted or adequately compensated, it will give the developers the illusion that they are on the right track, which will seriously affect the refresh direction of other classes later on.

Turtle_Bot

Umbracat449 wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_NickG @ZOS_Gilliam What ZOS has proposed for the "unique class bonuses" (removing crit chance from sorc) is just completely backwards and goes against how this class typically operates. Some clarification on whether ZOS will be reworking Sorcerer entirely to no longer be so tied down to crit chance or multi-hits for healing over time or if this was a misunderstanding of the class itself and will be corrected before PTS for U51 goes live would be appreciated.

Argh, I was wondering what you'd think of this sorc proposal, as a font of good sense and understanding of sorc, and I'm sorry to see it isn't winning your approval.

I wonder why it is they've just struggled so badly for so many years now to make a good sorcerer class.

I can only guess, but the main reason I can think of goes back to when ZOS removed Overloads "third skill bar".

The original design of Sorcerer was balanced entirely around having 3 skill bars of bar space to make up for the fact that the pets required being slotted on all bars and that the majority of Sorcs abilities are very one dimensional in design with very few buffs, debuffs or secondary effects like the other classes had. It also made up for the fact that Sorcerer needed to slot abilities like Magelight, Bound Armor, etc. on all bars just like the pets to ensure those abilities passive buffs were maintained since they did not carry over to bars that did not have those abilities slotted.

With the third skill bar on overload, it was possible for pet sorcs to slot the basic buffs on that bar and toggle it every 30 seconds to rebuff without losing out too much on staple basic abilities (such as DoTs, spammable, etc.) despite the pets taking up effectively 6 bar slots total across 3 bars. Toggling the overload bar was also not a DPS loss when rebuffing since the damage buff to the light attacks made up for the 2-3 casts of the buff abilities.

It was also possible for non-pet sorcs to do the same thing, but trade the pets passive and consistent damage for extra abilities/utility/effects that had higher potential, but was much harder to play than pet builds.

Ever since the removal overloads third bar, Sorcs have effectively been trying to play the game with only 66% of the bar space that the other classes have access to, as such, the pets being double barred and the one dimensional nature of Sorcerers class abilities have really been left on show and since the majority of changes made in the past were just numbers adjustments instead of the needed reworks/redesigns to account for the removal of that third skill bar, it took extreme numbers changes to try and make up for this issue, but that just creates other issues when such changes allow for leaning entirely into whatever gets buffed.

A prime example of this issue in action was U41, when ZOS massively buffed Hardened Ward and also buffed the max mag passives at the same time. A regular Sorcerer build that didn't stack max magicka like crazy (30-40k mag) was now operating on par with the other classes, so it was essentially goal achieved in that aspect, but a Sorcerer that stacked entirely into max mag (60k+) was a nightmare to fight in PvP with shields that essentially gave that build 45k+ health and with enough mag stacked to actually allow that inefficient DPS stat to reach DPS numbers equal to the meta weapon damage builds of other classes.
It was also exacerbated by the fact that Sorcs upfront tooltips are actually fine numerically, just let down by the one dimensional nature of the abilities themselves and the many non-numbers issues the abilities have such as clunky cast times, long winded animations that act as cast times when trying to weave them, and other issues that cannot be fixed by numbers adjustments. But allowing stats to be stacked that high alongside the extreme numbers adjustments to Hardened Ward, just pushed the already fine numerical values of the other abilities to values that were no longer balanced for that time.

It's frustrating because we are seeing something similar to U41 with Conservation of Energy this patch. On a regular Sorc this class mastery is strong, but not broken, but on a health stacking build (and especially a health stacking werewolf with it's own health based healing), the numbers become too much and very unbalanced. But then if ZOS nerfs this passive (like they did with reverb in response to the now infamous 220k parse from week 1 of the U50 PTS) to account for these stat stacking builds, then it completely ruins this passive for every other fair build that Sorcerer players want to try and make/play.

While Penetration is a stat that Sorcerer is lacking in it's kit, crit chance is just so much more important than pen (not just in terms of how it buffs DPS and healing, but also how Sorcerer functions at a design level), so while gaining pen is technically a nice numerical "buff" it comes at the cost of an extreme reduction of synergy across Sorcerers kit at the design level.

I "don't approve" of this Sorc proposal because it essentially repeats the mistakes of the past: "Random numbers adjustments without any understanding of the design or function of the class kit".

I really hope the refresh team can understand this issue when it comes to the Sorc class refresh. I had some concerns initially (back when the first teaser image was released) because it looked like a lot of the lightning theme was potentially disappearing from the class since the written descriptions on that image completely excluded Shock damage, focusing entirely on pets and dark magics. This proposed change just further shows that there is a key lack of understanding of the class from a design standpoint that has only re-surfaced those initial concerns I had. So I really do hope ZOS can give us some clarification on this (especially since with Warden likely already moving to the finishing/polishing stages of it's refresh with it's PTS release only a month or 2 away now and Sorcerer likely now starting the early concepts/designs for it's refresh).

Umbracat449

Reading this ^^ confirms what I've been thinking since that bizarre image of sorc with lightning but then no mention of lightning skills in the description...... zos needs to go aaallll the way back to the drawing board for sorc, and start from high level concepts of what it is to be a sorc in this elder scrolls world.

This may annoy the whole player base but if they're not that radical, they'll do some weird frankenstein effort of a patchwork monster of all the previous layers of decisions.

illuminousflux

I'm not opposed to more penetration, though I think the only place it's going to benefit is in PvP, especially in group PvP. However, I do think losing a source of critical chance is going to be bad for PvE sorcerer, especially since it's so easy to hit the penetration cap in group play.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Umbracat449 wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I really hope the refresh team can understand this issue when it comes to the Sorc class refresh. I had some concerns initially (back when the first teaser image was released) because it looked like a lot of the lightning theme was potentially disappearing from the class since the written descriptions on that image completely excluded Shock damage, focusing entirely on pets and dark magics. This proposed change just further shows that there is a key lack of understanding of the class from a design standpoint that has only re-surfaced those initial concerns I had. So I really do hope ZOS can give us some clarification on this (especially since with Warden likely already moving to the finishing/polishing stages of it's refresh with it's PTS release only a month or 2 away now and Sorcerer likely now starting the early concepts/designs for it's refresh).

I didn't even consider they'd get rid of the lightning theme entirely, but it is concerning there isn't a mention of it on the rework poster. Sorcerer is my favorite class to play, and the lightning theme is the main part of that. I was really hoping they'd lean into the storm calling aspect more with the rework. A lightning spammable on par with DKs whip would be nice. However, If they got rid of storm calling completely, I don't think I'd want to play this game anymore.

Quethrosar

stop trying to make classes special for a raid setup. just focus on the 3 roles, tank healer dps. stop trying to force micro management of raid groups. stop introducing classism ( racism for classes ). if you insist on buffs and debuffs coming from something, make them skills not class based.

VinnyGambini

Quethrosar wrote: »

stop trying to make classes special for a raid setup. just focus on the 3 roles, tank healer dps. stop trying to force micro management of raid groups. stop introducing classism ( racism for classes ). if you insist on buffs and debuffs coming from something, make them skills not class based.

IMO stop balance classes around PvE. Whats the difference if you defeat boss 10 seconds sooner or later? Seriously I dont get it.

PvP is obvious, balance of power is mandatory to be playable. But PvE? What is the difference if I make 150k or 180k dps if I kill boss anyway?

Silaf

It's a good direction all classes should have a unique buff.

Turtle_Bot

Silaf wrote: »

It's a good direction all classes should have a unique buff.

It's the wrong direction when the class has limited mandatory abilities (class heal over time) that are completely designed around high crit rate and not high pen.

Dracane

Seems I was the only one who was so happy to hear about this, at least from a PvP standpoint. For PvE, my group will have a lot less damage from me.

It depends how high the value will be.

Firstmep

Just came here to show my support to the idea of Templar: unchanged, Sorc: Unchanged, Dk:Armor, nb: unique crit dmg buff
Heck they could give dk an offensive one too like dot dmg for example

Turtle_Bot

Dracane wrote: »

Seems I was the only one who was so happy to hear about this, at least from a PvP standpoint. For PvE, my group will have a lot less damage from me.

It depends how high the value will be.

It's not the worst buff to have, the issue with it is, as I said above, it goes against Sorcs design, especially crit surge (which is supposed to be Sorcs class heal over time ability since Sorc doesn't have a regular HoT in it's kit) and this change just further erodes the already severely strained and limited synergy between Sorcs class skills/lines (which is completely counter to what the class refreshes are supposed to be all about).