Class Masteries, Sorcerer perspective

Elendildur

The Sorc class masteries are just bad right now, and really need to be buffed

Conservation of Energy
This is alright, but Dark Exchange already gives a lot of sustain, and as a pure Sorc, you'll likely run Crystal Shard as a DD, which is the main role to use the increased max resources

Font of Power
At 30k max resources, this is around 17% increased WSD, which at 7k WSD, is an extra 1.2k. Not awful, but not good enough to draw people back to pure Sorc

Static Reverberation
On a no-pet Sorc, this could be alright, but the lower chance based on the number of permanent pets just doesn't work. I can see the idea here, that the pets are always active, and hitting something with 3 different attacks at once (you, Familiar, Twilight) could be OP, but is it? The pets attack around once per second, so they'll only ever trigger one hit of Static out of 5 per pet, but they tank your chance of applying it based on simply existing. Pets aren't that powerful, but they represent such a massive cost, since they need to be slotted on both bars

Calculated Defense
The 3% WSD to the group is nice, but a 30% shield for 0.5 secs doesn't really do much. At 40k health, which is the average health for a tank, this is a 12k shield, but Conjured Ward is around 14k. I can see the appeal of applying the shield when casting any ability, so you don't need to spend the Magicka cost for Conjured Ward, but it's not that appealing

Sphere of Influence
The only ability in their class kit that gives allies shields is Daedric Refuge, which is awful to try to actually use to shield anyone, since healers tend to be behind the group, but Refuge would need them to be in the middle of the group, and for a DD, with 20k Max Health, it's capped at 3k shields anyway. Fragmented Shield from Earthern Heart has around 6k shields when around 30k Max Magicka, and caps at 31% of the targets Max Health, but the entire skill line is better for support

Lead From the Front (Dragonknight)
While this isn't a Sorc Class Mastery, it's still worth discussing here, since the Major Berserk on this could kill Sorcerer as a support class. Sorcerer has very little in the way of group utility.
In Dark Magic: Absorption Field (heal), Crystal Weapon (1k armour shred for 5 secs), Encase (Major Maim), Vibrant Shroud (same as Encase, plus heal), Daedic Refuge (shields), and Exploitation (Minor Prophecy)
In Daedric Summoning: Summon Storm Atronach (Major Berserk and synergy to 1 ally), Summon Twilight Matriarch (heal), and Regenerative Ward (Minor Intellect and Endurance)
In Storm Calling: Lightning Splash (synergy to 1 ally), and Power Surge (heal)
That's all the group utility Sorcs have in class skills, but basically everything has better options elsewhere. The only one that can't easily be replaced, and the main reason right now to run any Sorc skill line on a support, is the Major Berserk. If DKs can give everyone Major Berserk for 13 secs when they cast Standard of Might, it would remove any reason to use Daedric Summoning on a support, which would leave Sorcs as DDs only

Dracane

Does any endgame pve build have 7k unbuffed weapon and spell damage or even near it?

Elendildur

Dracane wrote: »

Does any endgame pve build have 7k unbuffed weapon and spell damage or even near it?

Maybe not unbuffed, but Skinnycheeks Aedric Tome and Beam Machine builds both hit over 8k WSD when fully buffed, which further highlights how useless Font of Power is, since it can only maybe match them, but they have much higher crit damage and crit chance, plus extra pen

Dracane

So in game, the Sorcerer masteries sound much stronger. Font of Power is closer to the original version.
I wonder what is true now?

Dracane

This has 12% base spell damage, while the patchnotes mention none at all.

Elendildur

Dracane wrote: »

This has 12% base spell damage, while the patchnotes mention none at all.

That would buff Font of Power to about 29% at 30k. A lot better than 17%, but not sure it's enough (2040 extra WSD at 7k)

Dracane

But what is the truth? Should we trust the patchnotes or in game? The passives generally sound quite different.

Sphere of Influence lasts 4 seconds instead of 3 and seems a bit stronger.

Elendildur

Dracane wrote: »

But what is the truth? Should we trust the patchnotes or in game? The passives generally sound quite different.

I would guess the values in game are the correct ones, although it's weird that they're so different

Dracane

Sphere of Influence is a disappointment. I already feared as much based on the wording, but you can only have one of these active. I hoped each ward would create a separate one. Ice staff heavy attacks and enchantment wards also do not create one.

And hahaha, Daedric Refuge does not work either. It does seem like the ward from this talent is cast on top of your main ward, so it seems (hard to tell because the effects are bugged and stay active even if the ward is destroyed) to take the damage first (good) I expected ZoS to mess up and have it apply below your main ward, which would make no sense.

MashmalloMan

Dracane wrote: »

This has 12% base spell damage, while the patchnotes mention none at all.

There is no longer a base at all.

The original had 9% base +1% for every 1500, the new version is just +1% for every 1750.

The 12% you're seeing is 18% for my character which has 32k Stamina. So presumably, you have around 21k max resources to get the 12% you've screenshotted.

Dracane

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

This has 12% base spell damage, while the patchnotes mention none at all.

There is no longer a base at all.

The original had 9% base +1% for every 1500, the new version is just +1% for every 1750.

The 12% you're seeing is 18% for my character which has 32k Stamina. So presumably, you have around 21k max resources to get the 12% you've screenshotted.

Oh! This is so crushing. Unbelievable.

Elendildur

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

This has 12% base spell damage, while the patchnotes mention none at all.

There is no longer a base at all.

The original had 9% base +1% for every 1500, the new version is just +1% for every 1750.

The 12% you're seeing is 18% for my character which has 32k Stamina. So presumably, you have around 21k max resources to get the 12% you've screenshotted.

I'm now wondering if it ever had a base. Default tooltips tend to be based on 12k mag/stam, 16k health, and 1k WSD. At 1% per 1500 max resource, 12k would become 8%, so maybe it had a 1% base

Dracane

That is likely it. Yet still, 1750 magicka per stack is a considerable nerf. I expected to see at 1250 or even 1000.

Malyore

Can someone make a list of what they suspect each mastery is supposed to help with that specific class, in comparison to what multiclassed abilities?

I wonder if that would help folks better understand why these masteries are not meeting the goalpost.

For example, I can guess Calculated Defense is supposed to function similar to the Arcanist which gets shields on activation of at least two abilities. And that the scaling with Magicka for Sphere of Influence is supposed to bring sorcerer back to when Magicka was used for the highest damage shields.

albertberku

I believe Font of Power is ok. Almost no one plays Max Magicka sorcerer right now. You have to make the calculation for 60k Max Magicka, but you are doing it for 30k. 30k Max Stat builds are close to current meta, there is no need to consider that kind of build when adding more power. You can already stack damage quite good when you go for damage and not max stats. Max magicka builds have to be competitive with that.

About the shields, it is very problematic right now. 15 - 16k PvP shields are melting in milliseconds. I dont know how it will be achieved but Max Magicka shield skill should be minimum around 22k+ to stay competitive with crazy block healing and damage numbers out there right now. Or maybe increase the damage mitigation of that one CP perk which gives you 10% Mitigation when blocking while shielding to around 30% +.

And shields should only scale with Max Magicka. 0.5 sec 30% Health shields on every ability will surely overperform with a Stamsorc. They already have very good continuos healing. They will just recover to full health whole time during fights with that change. It will be like adding 5-6k per sec healing passively to a Stamsorc, or lets say around 10k Health Recovery. If anything there should be a distinction that gives more healing to weapon damage builds and shields to Max Magicka builds.

MashmalloMan

Dracane wrote: »

That is likely it. Yet still, 1750 magicka per stack is a considerable nerf. I expected to see at 1250 or even 1000.

It's a nerf, but still powerful.

For PVE, every build has at minimum 32k resources or so, sometimes higher, especially with a group, so you just get a free, no nonsense, +20% w/s damage.

In PVP, if you built for Max Mag stacking for Hardened Ward like before subclassing, you're sitting at 22~28% w/s damage.

An average w/s damage/crit/proc build with 30k HP has around 22~25k resources, so 12~14% w/s damage. They should effectively have more raw w/s damage to scale in comparison to the Max Mag stacker, so it could be quite close in the end.

If you compare to the other class Masteries:

• Warden = 15% - great baseline, simple, no hoops, matches normal non Max Mag stacking Sorc multiplier
• Templar = 600 w/s damage - Sorc with +15% would need 4000 raw w/s damage to achieve the same result
• NB = 1~1250 w/s damage - x2 of Templar, but based on 1~100% HP
• Necro = 2-20% - Slightly higher than Warden, but requires build up
• Arcanist = 666 (based on ult) or 300 w/s damage (perma) - Weaker than Templar, same Sorc logic

So all things considered, Sorc's Mastery is equal, if not better to what I'm seeing on other classes, but it has no secondary effect like Max HP or crux, etc. I have no doubt the passive is still strong, I just wonder if it's enough in conjunction with Implosion to compete with some of the other 2x DPS Masteries available out there.

Dracane

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

That is likely it. Yet still, 1750 magicka per stack is a considerable nerf. I expected to see at 1250 or even 1000.

It's a nerf, but still powerful.

For PVE, every build has at minimum 32k resources or so, sometimes higher, especially with a group, so you just get a free, no nonsense, +20% w/s damage.

In PVP, if you built for Max Mag stacking for Hardened Ward like before subclassing, you're sitting at 22~28% w/s damage.

An average w/s damage/crit/proc build with 30k HP has around 22~25k resources, so 12~14% w/s damage. They should effectively have more raw w/s damage to scale in comparison to the Max Mag stacker, so it could be quite close in the end.

If you compare to the other class Masteries:

• Warden = 15% - great baseline, simple, no hoops, matches normal non Max Mag stacking Sorc multiplier
• Templar = 600 w/s damage - Sorc with +15% would need 4000 raw w/s damage to achieve the same result
• NB = 1~1250 w/s damage - x2 of Templar, but based on 1~100% HP
• Necro = 2-20% - Slightly higher than Warden, but requires build up
• Arcanist = 666 (based on ult) or 300 w/s damage (perma) - Weaker than Templar, same Sorc logic

So all things considered, Sorc's Mastery is equal, if not better to what I'm seeing on other classes, but it has no secondary effect like Max HP or crux, etc. I have no doubt the passive is still strong, I just wonder if it's enough in conjunction with Implosion to compete with some of the other 2x DPS Masteries available out there.

I spoke only on Sorcerer here since this thread is for Sorcerer. All of these passives mentioned are underpowered compared to the stats you get from subclassing.

Warden's 1650 spell damage for 6 status effects is powerful. (You did not mention it) This I consider truly potent and competitive, but like you said; this is not a no non-sense passive like Font of Power.

YandereGirlfriend

Dracane wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

That is likely it. Yet still, 1750 magicka per stack is a considerable nerf. I expected to see at 1250 or even 1000.

It's a nerf, but still powerful.

For PVE, every build has at minimum 32k resources or so, sometimes higher, especially with a group, so you just get a free, no nonsense, +20% w/s damage.

In PVP, if you built for Max Mag stacking for Hardened Ward like before subclassing, you're sitting at 22~28% w/s damage.

An average w/s damage/crit/proc build with 30k HP has around 22~25k resources, so 12~14% w/s damage. They should effectively have more raw w/s damage to scale in comparison to the Max Mag stacker, so it could be quite close in the end.

If you compare to the other class Masteries:

• Warden = 15% - great baseline, simple, no hoops, matches normal non Max Mag stacking Sorc multiplier
• Templar = 600 w/s damage - Sorc with +15% would need 4000 raw w/s damage to achieve the same result
• NB = 1~1250 w/s damage - x2 of Templar, but based on 1~100% HP
• Necro = 2-20% - Slightly higher than Warden, but requires build up
• Arcanist = 666 (based on ult) or 300 w/s damage (perma) - Weaker than Templar, same Sorc logic

So all things considered, Sorc's Mastery is equal, if not better to what I'm seeing on other classes, but it has no secondary effect like Max HP or crux, etc. I have no doubt the passive is still strong, I just wonder if it's enough in conjunction with Implosion to compete with some of the other 2x DPS Masteries available out there.

I spoke only on Sorcerer here since this thread is for Sorcerer. All of these passives mentioned are underpowered compared to the stats you get from subclassing.

Warden's 1650 spell damage for 6 status effects is powerful. (You did not mention it) This I consider truly potent and competitive, but like you said; this is not a no non-sense passive like Font of Power.

IMO, it isn't even about equalizing the stats acquired from subclassing but about the abilities. As there is basically no way to out-stat a class simply having bad abilities. And Sorcerer has mostly bad abilities.

No realistic amount of stats will ever overcome that, and, even if they could, would we really want Crystal Frags providing 10k Weapon Damage because that's what it takes to compete with subclassed DKs?

The roll-out of these passives drives home the point that classes without a decent backbone of abilities will never be competitive until their respective refresh fixes that issue with complete skill reworks a la the DK refresh.

Dracane

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

That is likely it. Yet still, 1750 magicka per stack is a considerable nerf. I expected to see at 1250 or even 1000.

It's a nerf, but still powerful.

For PVE, every build has at minimum 32k resources or so, sometimes higher, especially with a group, so you just get a free, no nonsense, +20% w/s damage.

In PVP, if you built for Max Mag stacking for Hardened Ward like before subclassing, you're sitting at 22~28% w/s damage.

An average w/s damage/crit/proc build with 30k HP has around 22~25k resources, so 12~14% w/s damage. They should effectively have more raw w/s damage to scale in comparison to the Max Mag stacker, so it could be quite close in the end.

If you compare to the other class Masteries:

• Warden = 15% - great baseline, simple, no hoops, matches normal non Max Mag stacking Sorc multiplier
• Templar = 600 w/s damage - Sorc with +15% would need 4000 raw w/s damage to achieve the same result
• NB = 1~1250 w/s damage - x2 of Templar, but based on 1~100% HP
• Necro = 2-20% - Slightly higher than Warden, but requires build up
• Arcanist = 666 (based on ult) or 300 w/s damage (perma) - Weaker than Templar, same Sorc logic

So all things considered, Sorc's Mastery is equal, if not better to what I'm seeing on other classes, but it has no secondary effect like Max HP or crux, etc. I have no doubt the passive is still strong, I just wonder if it's enough in conjunction with Implosion to compete with some of the other 2x DPS Masteries available out there.

I spoke only on Sorcerer here since this thread is for Sorcerer. All of these passives mentioned are underpowered compared to the stats you get from subclassing.

Warden's 1650 spell damage for 6 status effects is powerful. (You did not mention it) This I consider truly potent and competitive, but like you said; this is not a no non-sense passive like Font of Power.

IMO, it isn't even about equalizing the stats acquired from subclassing but about the abilities. As there is basically no way to out-stat a class simply having bad abilities. And Sorcerer has mostly bad abilities.

No realistic amount of stats will ever overcome that, and, even if they could, would we really want Crystal Frags providing 10k Weapon Damage because that's what it takes to compete with subclassed DKs?

The roll-out of these passives drives home the point that classes without a decent backbone of abilities will never be competitive until their respective refresh fixes that issue with complete skill reworks a la the DK refresh.

This is indeed what it boils down to.
That's why I say that these passives needed to be truly immense to not only compete with the raw passives you can combine through subclassing (looks like they won't even do that as things stand) and then also somehow nicen your kit enough to compete with those amazing combinations.

T3vvy

Just so yall know, sorc is hitting 10k weapon and spell damage, and 178k parses atm. So definitely not as doom and gloom as it might seem

Dracane

T3vvy wrote: »

Just so yall know, sorc is hitting 10k weapon and spell damage, and 178k parses atm. So definitely not as doom and gloom as it might seem

Stamsorc always had good single target DPS. I am not so worried for that.
Might this be with the new Monolith of Storms? Looks good now.

Tannus15

Yeah, not gonna lie, no pet is looking really good




However things are looking less rosy for pet builds




I mean, 165k is still really good, don't get me wrong.
Sorc is doing just fine.

hoangdz

Conservation of Energy is arguably the best class mastery passive on PTS, and Font of Power provides 1k-1.5k weapon/spell damage when built correctly. With decent theory crafting, Sorc will be one of the best classes in the game in this update.

Umbracat449

Argh

'Sorc is doing just fine'

'Sorc will be one of the best classes'

Sorc is a MESS and the devs need to go back to the drawing board, and being all optimistic isn't going to encourage that! Crack the whip!

I want first principles, blue skies, what should this class really be, in pve and in pvp (- which in my book cannot be the same) thinking!

Seraphayel

Sorc is and was never a mess in the 12 years this game is live, Sorc players are just overtly dramatic lmao.

Compared to several other classes the Sorc class masteries are actually good to great, I really have no idea where these complaints come from.

ZhuJiuyin

Seraphayel wrote: »

Sorc is and was never a mess in the 12 years this game is live, Sorc players are just overtly dramatic lmao.

Compared to several other classes the Sorc class masteries are actually good to great, I really have no idea where these complaints come from.

Look at the usage rate of sorc on the esolog. Can a class with the lowest usage rate really be considered problem-free? Or do you think that as long as there are few people using it, there won't be any problems?

hoangdz

Umbracat449 wrote: »

Argh

'Sorc is doing just fine'

'Sorc will be one of the best classes'

Sorc is a MESS and the devs need to go back to the drawing board, and being all optimistic isn't going to encourage that! Crack the whip!

I want first principles, blue skies, what should this class really be, in pve and in pvp (- which in my book cannot be the same) thinking!

In PvP Sorc is one of the best classes with the new class masteries, on par with pure DK and their class masteries.

Major_Toughness

Sorc was already the best non-DK pure class and it's class masteries and perfectly fine. They're one of the stronger set of mastery passives.

I do not understand this brigade to make Sorc the most overpowered, easy to play class that ever existed.

It's not a class issue.

Dracane

hoangdz wrote: »

Umbracat449 wrote: »

Argh

'Sorc is doing just fine'

'Sorc will be one of the best classes'

Sorc is a MESS and the devs need to go back to the drawing board, and being all optimistic isn't going to encourage that! Crack the whip!

I want first principles, blue skies, what should this class really be, in pve and in pvp (- which in my book cannot be the same) thinking!

In PvP Sorc is one of the best classes with the new class masteries, on par with pure DK and their class masteries.

Slow down a bit now. That last statement is rather adventurous.

Dracane

Tannus15 wrote: »

Yeah, not gonna lie, no pet is looking really good




However things are looking less rosy for pet builds




I mean, 165k is still really good, don't get me wrong.
Sorc is doing just fine.

Destruction Staff, MagSorc, Overload, High Elf, and now even Monolith of Storms and a good outcome: am I adream?
That is gleaming with class identity. I absolutely hate playing Sorc as a DPS in pve, but this build would make me do it.

Alas, how much will subclasses abuse these newly buffed sets, and this new Mythical? Will probably make this parse look like warm up. *'

EDIT: But still this horrible Medium Armour I see... I want Light Armour back.

Zeeejay

I did some testing yesterday as well (hi Tannus!), hit 178k on the dummy with Perfected Slivers of the Null Arca, Monolith of Storms, Huntsman's Warmask, and a no pet skill setup matching Tannus', but with rapid strikes and dual wield instead of force pulse and lightning staff (and points into stamina).







(No there is no reason to wear an extra light piece with magicka enchant unless you're just a little dumb, like me sometimes...



With regards to the class masteries and balance update for Sorcerer, here is my feedback:

I think Sorcerer dummy parses are currently being inflated due to a couple of main factors that will not be nearly as relevant when playing actual content:

1. Monolith of Storms -- this set is straight up best in slot for Sorcerer dummy parsing. However, in content, some of the monolith spawns can be problematic, which takes away some of the power of the set. BUT, this is not as penalizing nor does it feel as bad as before now that there is the bonus weapon/spell damage per monolith to fall back on. This is such a great set design, I really hope it makes it to live in this current state. It feeds Sorcerer's lightning mage identity and provides an exceptionally solid shock item set, of which there are exceptionally few in game (basically one other - storm-cursed's revenge).

2. Static Reverberation -- this gets inflated on dummy parses where rapid strikes and bound armaments are used. While rapid strikes is great in pure single target scenarios, such as a dummy parse, in reality you would be much more likely to see a setup similar to what Tannus15 posted above in content, or possibly one utilizing traveling knife with multi-target and class mastery scripts.

(Speaking of class masteries, can we please get the permanent pet change added to Sorcerer's so we can use storm atronach? Thanks!)


In my opinion, I think Sorcerer is overall in a pretty good spot as a pure DD if the "push to live" button were hit today. It feels like it's pretty balanced when you take into account the two main factors above. Ideally, I think there would be some cleave added to the kit to help boost Sorcerer performance in boss fights to be more competitive with Dragonknight, Arcanist, and Templar and their subclassed setups, but if the single target focus is to remain, then I think this is good enough to hold us Sorcerer mains over until Update 52.

I would like to see the Sphere of Influence passive adjusted to something else, ideally something more group buff oriented. As it stands, this simply does not move the needle for supports who would play the Sorcerer pure class compared to a subclassing setup. Even as a tank, which I think is in a better spot compared to healer, this doesn't really provide any compelling evidence to say "Yeah, I'd like to bring my Sorcerer tank to group instead of my subclassed setup."