Sheogorath as a one-dimensional character

eashi

The concept of Sheogorath is really interesting, the daedric price of order corrupted and drive mad to become the prince of chaos. That part of the lore, and I will save you all the details here, is super interesting. There are so many opportunities in his various ESO and other TES quest lines for that chaos to play out in interesting ways. Some of these quests are good mind you but my question is why does he always mention cheese? Like it was amusing at first but over time he has become just "lol cheese" on repeat. Personally I see it as a problem because any time cheese comes up in the game people just think about Sheo and he is and should be a much more complex and interesting character than that. What do people think about this?

metheglyn

I've never liked the representation of Sheogorath in the Elder Scrolls games. Too often 'madness' gets represented as 'just some quirky behavior' and I don't care for that. I do think, however, it's very hard to accurately represent the actual chaos that would surround him, so we're left with contained silliness.

There have been some exceptions. The quest in Northern Elsweyr, with the Two Moons Temple, did manage to show what the chaos of Sheogorath might actually look like, and it was quite terrifying.

eashi

I do agree one of the better quests was the Elsweyr one but there was still that lol cheese moment with the bait cheese.

metheglyn

Yeah, I could do without the cheese references. It's never struck me as funny or interesting.

eashi

I'm paraphrasing the original cheese bit here but the first appearance of cheese in a sheo quest was in Oblivion: Shivering Isles. The quote goes something to the effect of

"Wonderful! Time for a celebration... Cheese for everyone! Wait, scratch that. Cheese for no one. I suppose that can be just as much of a celebration, if you don't like cheese, true? You've run a maze like a good little rat. But no cheese for you yet. Well, maybe a little.""

Which is the right level of chaos and the quote is more about him saying you are a rat trapped in a maze than it is about cheese but somehow that morphed into him constantly bringing up cheese whenever he appears.

metheglyn

Yes, if he was written more to that level instead of just zany, I might not grit my teeth every time I have to interact with him.

colossalvoids

Probably that's the price we're paying for the popularity of the certain Oblivion DLC which is now stripped down to basic "cheese for everyone" and any sinister undertones aren't that much desirable in modern mainstream media as a bonus. So here we are. Luckily old games can not change retroactively so earlier portrayal is still here, just with zero chances for a more nuanced and deep continuation in the future, at the very least in ESO.

Soarora

Finally! Someone gets it!!! I was suspicious reading the title here thinking “what, no, he has plenty of depth”, but you’re right. So many people reduce him to cooky “I love cheese and say random things!” and for this reason I dread the Sheogorath questline. I don’t like ESO Sheo, he’s laughed at like he’s a child instead of the incredibly powerful and terrifying god he is. Oblivion Sheogorath hits so hard because of how he swings between manic and demented. One second he’s shouting nonsense, the next he’s staring deep into your soul and threatening you, just to return to shouting joyfully. Enough with the cheese! It was funny the ONE TIME! And it was referring to the actual cheese that is included in the quest… which isn’t even the punchline of the quest. Raining dogs on Khajiit is the joke!

Emeratis

I agree with pretty much everything said so far. I love Sheogorath when he's depicted well but he has been progressively more flanderized over time. There are other fictional universes I enjoy who have similar beings (mad/trickster god) and have a far better time balancing their fun, random and freespirited side with their darker, more sinister and destructive side.

When the Sheogorath questline was announced, I was apprehensive but hopeful. Some of my other friends would rather them not touch Sheogorath at all due to how easy it is to mishandle him, but I think a good storyline with him that is compelling and captures all his multifaceted nature can be done again. Both Shiviering Isles from Oblivion and Isle of Madness from Legends are more what I'm hoping to see and less...cheese memes and constant silliness. I admit I'm even more nervous as post-u49 there are several areas full of cheese scattered throughout the world and that means we likely at least get some continuation of the cheese jokes during that questline (hopefully they are limited/not a major plot point...)

It would be refreshing to see Sheogorath storylines return to being more dark and compelling and not just light and jovial quests that aim at being funny but miss the mark.

eashi

I really am concerned that the whole "lol cheese" bit is slowly eating his character to the point that is all he will be to people rather than the terrifying daedric prince he actually is. He is not a haha funny character he is chaotic and can get dark quickly is a really random way.

On another not the only other time I feel the cheese bit worked was in his cyro voice line. I mean stealing another daedra's artifact is very sheo and unleashing it upon cyrodill during the three banners war even more so. Honestly this works really well right down to the "but you have to feed it kills" mechanic and the fact that half the people who pick it up dont actually know what to do with it. But I digress, the "Maces, swords, axes...what ever happened to bludgeoning someone with a wheel of cheese!" voice line does work on some level even if it is a bit "lol cheese" curious as to how other people feel about that one.

Soarora

eashi wrote: »

[…]But I digress, the "Maces, swords, axes...what ever happened to bludgeoning someone with a wheel of cheese!" voice line does work on some level even if it is a bit "lol cheese" curious as to how other people feel about that one.

To be honest, I think it’s just another “lol cheese” joke. But I’m also so frustrated about the cheese thing that I’m probably oversensitive to Sheogorath cheese mentions. Or even food in general, like the Fishstick.

metheglyn

eashi wrote: »

But I digress, the "Maces, swords, axes...what ever happened to bludgeoning someone with a wheel of cheese!" voice line does work on some level even if it is a bit "lol cheese" curious as to how other people feel about that one.

When I heard him say that line in Cyrodiil, I thought, "Enough with the cheese already!" So to me it definitely sounded like a "lol cheese" line.

I wonder if this cheese situation is similar to the Darien Gautier bread situation. Darien mentioned bread a couple times in the base game--that he really likes it--and it didn't stand out much because it was just part of his character. Then some players/fans of Darien made a bigger deal of the bread. ZOS picked up on that, and now we don't get Darien without some mention of bread. Was there a similar fan fascination with Sheogorath and cheese that led to this "lol cheese" repetition?

Eporem

I see him as being Cheesy too.. or what a definition of cheesy might mean...so I hope as well that a more indepth or less cheesy side of him will be shown with the new lore of him that comes..
.....
and after reading more of this lore of him https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Sheogorath I no longer think of him as being cheesy though I did see him as being a bit this way through the quests of eso.

eashi

metheglyn wrote: »

eashi wrote: »

But I digress, the "Maces, swords, axes...what ever happened to bludgeoning someone with a wheel of cheese!" voice line does work on some level even if it is a bit "lol cheese" curious as to how other people feel about that one.

When I heard him say that line in Cyrodiil, I thought, "Enough with the cheese already!" So to me it definitely sounded like a "lol cheese" line.

I wonder if this cheese situation is similar to the Darien Gautier bread situation. Darien mentioned bread a couple times in the base game--that he really likes it--and it didn't stand out much because it was just part of his character. Then some players/fans of Darien made a bigger deal of the bread. ZOS picked up on that, and now we don't get Darien without some mention of bread. Was there a similar fan fascination with Sheogorath and cheese that led to this "lol cheese" repetition?

Good analogy here. I guess the cyrodill voice line is one of the few I do find amusing but yeah it is a "lol cheese" bit

Syldras

The typical meme-ification and trivialization we often see in game writing nowadays, sadly. As @colossalvoids said: "Negative" feelings don't seem to be allowed anymore - there's always some "light-hearted" joke thrown in in dire situations, or things are generally made some quirky joke anyway.

Emeratis wrote: »

I admit I'm even more nervous as post-u49 there are several areas full of cheese scattered throughout the world and that means we likely at least get some continuation of the cheese jokes during that questline (hopefully they are limited/not a major plot point...)

I'm curious: Where are those locations?

Emeratis

Syldras wrote: »

The typical meme-ification and trivialization we often see in game writing nowadays, sadly. As @colossalvoids said: "Negative" feelings don't seem to be allowed anymore - there's always some "light-hearted" joke thrown in in dire situations, or things are generally made some quirky joke anyway.

Emeratis wrote: »

I admit I'm even more nervous as post-u49 there are several areas full of cheese scattered throughout the world and that means we likely at least get some continuation of the cheese jokes during that questline (hopefully they are limited/not a major plot point...)

I'm curious: Where are those locations?

Vvardenfell east of Dubdil Alar Tower

Windhelm Cheese Stall

There may be more. These are just the only two found so far.

Syldras

Thanks for the pictures! That seems very... obvious. I'd like it more if it wasn't Sheogorath-related (though that would lead to the question where Vvardenfell even got that amount of cheese from), but that's rather unlikely, I'm afraid.

Eporem

I begin to wonder if Jyggalag will appear in this lore of Sheogorath after reading that time in the Shivering Isles is not the same as time on Tamriel...

prof-dracko

I've always seen the cheese thing as a compulsive obsession. That's a form of madness, in a way. Overall Shep in any of his canon appearances does a pretty good job of managing silliness with menace. It's mostly the fan works that overuse the memes. Remember that his quest in South point and the mages guild story are both him driving people to insane despair.

eashi

prof-dracko wrote: »

I've always seen the cheese thing as a compulsive obsession. That's a form of madness, in a way. Overall Shep in any of his canon appearances does a pretty good job of managing silliness with menace. It's mostly the fan works that overuse the memes. Remember that his quest in South point and the mages guild story are both him driving people to insane despair.

Yes but why are the cheese references needed at all?

Soarora

eashi wrote: »

prof-dracko wrote: »

I've always seen the cheese thing as a compulsive obsession. That's a form of madness, in a way. Overall Shep in any of his canon appearances does a pretty good job of managing silliness with menace. It's mostly the fan works that overuse the memes. Remember that his quest in South point and the mages guild story are both him driving people to insane despair.

Yes but why are the cheese references needed at all?

Maybe it’s a breaking-the-fourth-wall moment and all the cheese references are to drive US insane…

It’s working.

Eporem

Soarora wrote: »

eashi wrote: »

prof-dracko wrote: »

I've always seen the cheese thing as a compulsive obsession. That's a form of madness, in a way. Overall Shep in any of his canon appearances does a pretty good job of managing silliness with menace. It's mostly the fan works that overuse the memes. Remember that his quest in South point and the mages guild story are both him driving people to insane despair.

Yes but why are the cheese references needed at all?

Maybe it’s a breaking-the-fourth-wall moment and all the cheese references are to drive US insane…

It’s working.

This is so funny

metheglyn

The new quest line involving Sheogorath seemingly does use those locations and there was mention of a 'cheese festival'. However, the cheese part aside, I think the quest could actually be interesting. I really wasn't expecting to look forward to a Sheogorath quest, but now I am.

Eporem

The first character played to have met Sheogorath in ESO was an Altmer – a mage - so she did not think to highly of him, this time I think to take a Dunmer played through these quests to see more of the why he is within a corner of the House of Troubles – maybe or maybe not she will gain insight of this, as I have read also he returns as a Mortal.

Lugaldu

A dream come true!

prof-dracko

prof-dracko wrote: »

I've always seen the cheese thing as a compulsive obsession. That's a form of madness, in a way. Overall Shep in any of his canon appearances does a pretty good job of managing silliness with menace. It's mostly the fan works that overuse the memes. Remember that his quest in South point and the mages guild story are both him driving people to insane despair.

I take it back. It's more cheese. It's always the cheese.

metheglyn

prof-dracko wrote: »

prof-dracko wrote: »

I've always seen the cheese thing as a compulsive obsession. That's a form of madness, in a way. Overall Shep in any of his canon appearances does a pretty good job of managing silliness with menace. It's mostly the fan works that overuse the memes. Remember that his quest in South point and the mages guild story are both him driving people to insane despair.

I take it back. It's more cheese. It's always the cheese.

I'm hoping the cheese festival is just a framing device, and that once Sheogorath is on Tamriel the quest isn't about cheese, as it were. I find it an interesting idea that a Daedric Prince would divest themself of their powers and I'm wondering how they do that. When Chodala stole Vivec's power, he had to make use of a tool crafted specifically for that, a tool originally created by Sotha Sil. So I'm curious to find out who knows Sheogorath's power is there for the stealing, and how they intend to steal it.

It could be quite an interesting quest, especially if we get to leave the cheese festival behind.

Syldras

metheglyn wrote: »

I find it an interesting idea that a Daedric Prince would divest themself of their powers and I'm wondering how they do that.

The question I have about that is if it's even possible for a daedric prince to just mortalize oneself at will, and if that suddenly makes it possible to travel Nirn without going against the Coldharbor Compact. What I see might function would be possessing some mortal and perhaps magically changing their appearance, or sending an aspect of themselves, but in the announcement it didn't sound like that.

metheglyn

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I find it an interesting idea that a Daedric Prince would divest themself of their powers and I'm wondering how they do that.

The question I have about that is if it's even possible for a daedric prince to just mortalize oneself at will, and if that suddenly makes it possible to travel Nirn without going against the Coldharbor Compact. What I see might function would be possessing some mortal and perhaps magically changing their appearance, or sending an aspect of themselves, but in the announcement it didn't sound like that.

Somehow, I doubt Sheogorath would pay much heed to the Coldharbour Compact if it ran up against something he really wanted. Besides, hasn't he already been on Nirn a couple times: in Grahtwood in Southport and Elsweyr at Two Moons Temple?

I'm also wondering if his power has a madness signature to it, for lack of a better term. So whoever steals it doesn't just get power to wield, they get Sheogorath's madness power.

Syldras

metheglyn wrote: »

Somehow, I doubt Sheogorath would pay much heed to the Coldharbour Compact if it ran up against something he really wanted. Besides, hasn't he already been on Nirn a couple times: in Grahtwood in Southport and Elsweyr at Two Moons Temple?

Skooma Cat is considered an aspect of Sheogorath, so only a split fraction of him. And wasn't what happened in Southpoint with the mayor a case of possession?

What's the Compact worth if it could be just ignored and nothing happens?

metheglyn

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Somehow, I doubt Sheogorath would pay much heed to the Coldharbour Compact if it ran up against something he really wanted. Besides, hasn't he already been on Nirn a couple times: in Grahtwood in Southport and Elsweyr at Two Moons Temple?

Skooma Cat is considered an aspect of Sheogorath, so only a split fraction of him. And wasn't what happened in Southpoint with the mayor a case of possession?

There was possession (not of the mayor but the wood elf who helped us in that quest), but Sheogorath does show up in the end. Well, unless I'm completely misremembering, but I thought there was a point where we were standing there talking to him. If we'd done the Mages Guild quest (or were just on it, I think) he even calls us his favorite mortal.

I do still think he would disregard the Coldharbour Compact if he felt like it.

When you say Skooma Cat is considered an aspect of Sheogorath, what does that mean? Who considers it so? I was under the impression that Daedric Princes could assume whatever form they wished, so Sheogorath could be a cat if he wanted. If Skooma Cat is just an aspect of him, that wasn't clear to me when I did that quest.

Also, I feel like I should edit my post to say 'Southpoint' instead of 'Southport' but that probably borders on the fastidious a little too much.

You know, one a semi-related note, I wouldn't mind seeing one of the Princes bound by the Coldharbour Compact actively break it, just so I could see what consequence Sil put in place. Assuming there is a consequence, that is.

Edit to add: If the Coldharbour Compact doesn't keep an aspect of a Prince from manifesting on Nirn and causing trouble, then what good is it, really? Because sending an aspect of oneself seems like a tricky run-around of the rules.