Class refresh order should change

nightbringer1993

I was dissapointed to see that the latest patch 49 did not offer any true balance changes and just DK got refreshed. In my opinion the class refresh order should have been different, especialy since subclassing and the many nerfs we had over the years

1:Nightblade
Nightblade should have been the first class to be remastered due to how overtuned the assassination skill line is and how the cloak feels uneeded nowadays. The crit damage buff should go along the cloak to have more class identity. And have two ro three charges of grim focus is just crazy. I play nightblade nowadays in PvP because my main class got nerfed so much and I can tell you how strong the assassination skill line and the other two skill line should get more love.

2:Necromancer
This class was my main class and the one that brought me into the game in 2019 and to see how many nerfs and unnecessary changes were made in the class made me change class against my will. The corpse limitation nuked the class script and corpseburster set due to corpse constantly dissappearing and the removal of stalking blastbone was a huge hit on the damage of the class, I rarely see anyone using grave lord sacrifice, and people just use the other blastbone, blastbone that is missing from the vengeance skills. Set like turning also gave access to the Maj vul debuff to other classes which also was a nerf on the class, as necros were not needed anymore for this debuff to happen. The summong are just too weak and not worth sloting especialy since scibbing and subclassing, and skill like totem and graps are just useless and we lack a proper stun skill in PvP. So many things could be done to this class, and people on forums made many threads concerning this. Putting necromancer last place for class refresh without counting arca was another insult to players who bought this class or the Elsweyr DLC. Last fall I was kicked out of a trial group right before we went in the trial just for being a necro.

3:Sorcerer
The pets of this class are not strong enought in my opinion as we have to slot them in both bars and other skills could go to these spots to buff up the damage. A pure class bonus could be created to have such thing in the game. Streak is also exemely powerful in PvP, so much that it is also the most used skill line in pvp because of it's mobility and stuns. I bet many sorc mains would find other reason to remaster the class.

4:Warden
The class also needs to be change as I feel other pets than the bear could be added to its tool kits and some skill and trait are just too strong. Deep fissure provide burst and both Maj and Min breach which is very strong, The free to cast netch is also very strong as it helps in sustain and provide the maj brut and sorc that most people require in DD builds. The class script also really needs a change because getting people stuck in walls with that mass charm is simply not acceptable, especialy in BGs or in IC in the next patch where we will not be able to port out of IC with 100+ tel var.

5:Dragonknight
This is where I would have placed DK and honestly the changes in the PTS will not make people run away from current meta such as arca beam DD or the warden OP builds in PvP

6. Templar
Ever since the jab change I have seen people unhappy with this, but once more just like NB, aedric and dawnwrath skill line are used mostly for their passive mixed with the arca beam meta.

7:Arcanist
The arcanist is the latest class added to the game so it's visual is particularly fine, but the beam build is simply too strong and trial groups just want to have them for it's DD

Conclusion
The current scheme of patchs we are seeing lately suggest that classes won't be balanced before 2028. For each class refresh there should be changes to other underpowered or overpowered classes. After that I understand that we all have our point of views concerning the subject, and I bet people will have different class order than mine, but honestly I don't feel like the one we are having right now is the right one.

richo262

As the DBH and TG DLC's are going free to play, I have no objection to ZOS decommissioning the Nightblade in favor of providing proper skill trees in the DBH and TG skill trees. They could even add an interesting mechanic where the use of too many skills from the DBH / TG trees prohibits other trees such as anything provided by Meridia (Fighters Guild). A bit like the Dawnguard / Vampire dynamic found in Skyrim.

tomofhyrule

I don't think the reason that they're doing the order they're doing is because of what's overtuned and what's not. I think the reason is because some are easier than others, so they work as proofs-of-concept while they get more time to think about the ones that need more help.

DK, for all of its issues, wasn't really in a bad place originally. The goal is to not centralize power in any one line and instead keep themes, which DK kind of had already. Sure, one of the DK lines was pretty good for DPS (even though it had some support skills in it) and one was pretty centralized for tanking (but it underperformed against every comparative tanking line from other classes, so it was used by nobody), while the third line was a general 'support' line that had a lot of useful stuff making it pretty meta for tanks. However, that also meant it was easy to muddle everything around.

As a basegame class, that meant they could do it quickly to gauge how the rework would land and then have a standard to balance the rest against. They did start the DK rework before the surveys and everything were finished, after all.

Warden makes sense as a second class because it was the first DLC class, and therefore the first that has distinct lines by role. However, there's been a lot done already to muddle the tank line into a DPS line, so part of the job is already done. That therefore can server as their proof-of-concept on how the DLC classes will change, since they will need to end up doing things like adding damage skills to the healing line and shuffling the passives.

Classes like Necromancer are just in a bad state overall, so I'm sure that's why it's taking the longest to get to it because it needs the most work. Nightblade as well needs a fair amount of work to devalue Assassination and make Shadow useful. That's probably why these are so late in the game, since they're thinking more about how much work it will be instead of how much it needs balance. Arcanist also doesn't need an animation or effect redo, but it's extremely regimented by line, so that means it'll be harder to get that muddled together (also the fact that that will come with a nerfing of the individual lines if the power is moved into other lines, and people will riot if they lose too much power at once).

Yes, the balance being in the can is a bad thing, but we've been saying that (rightly so) since Subclassing dropped, and even before that. They really should have started by trying to rebalance obviously overtuned things like Assassination or Herald's super mega crit passives back in U47 and U48 instead of just doing nothing to combat. But they instead chose to do the balance and the reworks in one sweep, so they're starting with the easier ones to rework and then moving up the the ones that need more work, which makes sense in a way.

But absolutely, we will see this will make each class more devalued as we go until mid 2027, when more things are finally finished.

nightbringer1993

Change class refresh order

I have been away from my main class for two years now because of all those nerfs, I was forced to change class. I just want to have my necro playable again in high end gamelplay without the fear of being kicked out of trial groups or being outmatched by OP meta in PVP. Telling me to wait two more years is insulting Many things can happen in two years and I might never see the day where this balance will ocure.

salander7

Just for reference, since you don't mention it, for any others reading, current order is: Dragonknight, Warden, Sorcerer, Templar, Nightblade, Necromancer and Arcanist, but they said it's subject to change.

Now, my wall of text:

To be fair, I'm waiting for week 2 or 3 for changes on dk based on the feedback. I still think mixing all 3 roles in all 3 lines is a big mistake, since we have subclassing (which was also a big mistake, but it would feel awful to roll it back).
If the changes are good, the new transparency-feedback philosophy is truthful and the game starts to be balanced by people who understand it, I'd really want them to tackle certain classes first.
However, even if they listen, I'm not so sure they can carry out all the changes they want on DK without killing the DK playstyle we know (and being one of the few that feels distinct), and coming up with a whole new class, but sacrificing DK for it, is not something I'm looking forward too.
The chance they don't listen to feedback, because it could be perceived as a 180º turn, is also there, and it's what I would've expected from the previous team. Maybe they could give the same weight to all feedback, regardless of it being an "amazing idea" post in reddit w 2 upvotes or extensive data-backed feedback rom ppl like SkinnyCheeks. In any of these cases, I'd rather have classes that currently feel good to play/subclass for later.

In my opinion, work worse to better, as they are right now, are: Sorcerer, Necro, Dk, Plar, Nightblade, Warden, Arc, with PvE in mind.
Sorc has 1 bad line, and it's not great on anything but tank; Dds can use it situationally, healers don't gain much out of it. Cro is only good for some dds (or h/t sacrificing a line for colo). DK is great for dd and tank, but one kind of dead line, and it's dead for healers. Fixing that line could've been simpler than their whole rework, but oh well. Plar has 2 good lines for dd, one for healer, that is also usable as tanks, but lacking role balance. NB has one terrible line, but both assassination and siphoning feel great for dds, and tanks and healers respectively, flexible and giving nice micromanaging minigames. Warden is mediocre for dds, but absolutely great for both tanks and healers. Arc is simply better than Nb for dds, due to ease of use and how dominant it is, has a great toolset for tanks, and it's situational for healers. I feel many players have improved their chances of achieving things since arc dd became a thing, therefore I don't see the dominant aspect of herald as an intrinsically negative thing, however I'd rather not have one beam option per class, which seems to be the plan, looking at pts engulfing flames.

However, all my point of view is influenced by the fact that I'm completely misaligned with their "mixing up roles in all lines" idea, I think subclassing is a tool that lets people specialise their chars to a certain role. While a class should be able to carry out all 3 roles, and a pureclassed char should be able to have tools to tackle different aspects of the game, it only makes sense for a group oriented dd to get rid of the dead weight some lines represent, since they are not getting anything out of those.
Splitting the useful features for a particular role among 3 class lines just makes me feel I have to cope with a lot of dead weight to be able to have the DK dd feeling. If this ends up being the case for all classes, why would anybody want subclassing? Imagine runeblades and scholarship in one line, flail/dread in another, and fatecarver in another one. As things stand, it'll almost pointless to pick any of the pts dk lines in subclassing. Can't say how it'll be if they butcher all 7 classes, but I'm not looking forward to it. I feel the only point of subclassing then would be to aesthetically roleplay a char idea, rather than to be able to optimise, and even so, that char idea would be inherently weaker.

DenverRalphy

While I somewhat disagree with the order ZOS has chosen, I also disagree with the order in the OP. Nightblade should be at the bottom second only to Arcanist. Warden should have been first, with Necro being a close second.

The reason for the refresh is to bring pure classing back on par with subclassing. Assassin being overtuned means NB should be a lower priority (and if overtuning were a factor, why would Arcanist be last?).

[edit] Caveat: I'm speaking entirely from a PvE perspective.

icefyer_ESO

Change class refresh order

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I don't think the reason that they're doing the order they're doing is because of what's overtuned and what's not. I think the reason is because some are easier than others, so they work as proofs-of-concept while they get more time to think about the ones that need more help.

DK, for all of its issues, wasn't really in a bad place originally. The goal is to not centralize power in any one line and instead keep themes, which DK kind of had already. Sure, one of the DK lines was pretty good for DPS (even though it had some support skills in it) and one was pretty centralized for tanking (but it underperformed against every comparative tanking line from other classes, so it was used by nobody), while the third line was a general 'support' line that had a lot of useful stuff making it pretty meta for tanks. However, that also meant it was easy to muddle everything around.

As a basegame class, that meant they could do it quickly to gauge how the rework would land and then have a standard to balance the rest against. They did start the DK rework before the surveys and everything were finished, after all.

Warden makes sense as a second class because it was the first DLC class, and therefore the first that has distinct lines by role. However, there's been a lot done already to muddle the tank line into a DPS line, so part of the job is already done. That therefore can server as their proof-of-concept on how the DLC classes will change, since they will need to end up doing things like adding damage skills to the healing line and shuffling the passives.

Classes like Necromancer are just in a bad state overall, so I'm sure that's why it's taking the longest to get to it because it needs the most work. Nightblade as well needs a fair amount of work to devalue Assassination and make Shadow useful. That's probably why these are so late in the game, since they're thinking more about how much work it will be instead of how much it needs balance. Arcanist also doesn't need an animation or effect redo, but it's extremely regimented by line, so that means it'll be harder to get that muddled together (also the fact that that will come with a nerfing of the individual lines if the power is moved into other lines, and people will riot if they lose too much power at once).

Yes, the balance being in the can is a bad thing, but we've been saying that (rightly so) since Subclassing dropped, and even before that. They really should have started by trying to rebalance obviously overtuned things like Assassination or Herald's super mega crit passives back in U47 and U48 instead of just doing nothing to combat. But they instead chose to do the balance and the reworks in one sweep, so they're starting with the easier ones to rework and then moving up the the ones that need more work, which makes sense in a way.

But absolutely, we will see this will make each class more devalued as we go until mid 2027, when more things are finally finished.

For the whole 'adding damage to the healing line' what hey could do is similar to the nightblade siphoning tree, where you have heals that also do damage as they siphon life-force out of a foe.

Personofsecrets

Change class refresh order

salander7 wrote: »

However, all my point of view is influenced by the fact that I'm completely misaligned with their "mixing up roles in all lines" idea, I think subclassing is a tool that lets people specialise their chars to a certain role. While a class should be able to carry out all 3 roles, and a pureclassed char should be able to have tools to tackle different aspects of the game, it only makes sense for a group oriented dd to get rid of the dead weight some lines represent, since they are not getting anything out of those.

Splitting the useful features for a particular role among 3 class lines just makes me feel I have to cope with a lot of dead weight to be able to have the DK dd feeling. If this ends up being the case for all classes, why would anybody want subclassing? Imagine runeblades and scholarship in one line, flail/dread in another, and fatecarver in another one. As things stand, it'll almost pointless to pick any of the pts dk lines in subclassing. Can't say how it'll be if they butcher all 7 classes, but I'm not looking forward to it. I feel the only point of subclassing then would be to aesthetically roleplay a char idea, rather than to be able to optimise, and even so, that char idea would be inherently weaker.

This all makes sense and is wise thinking in my opinion.

SneaK

Nightblade is about the most complete class there is, it really doesn’t need much work other than a few skills that aren’t any good.

Cough cough Sap

Necro, Sorc, Warden, Temp, DK, NB, Arc

And get rid of Charm

Ugrak

richo262 wrote: »

As the DBH and TG DLC's are going free to play, I have no objection to ZOS decommissioning the Nightblade in favor of providing proper skill trees in the DBH and TG skill trees.

Wouldn't necessarily be a bad idea to move some classes from character creation to something earned in the world.

I mean the infrastructure is already there in the shape of the subclassing class tree exchange mechanism.

bmnoble

Keep class refresh order

Only thing that worries me about the whole approach, is the classes that go first, end up being left in the dust by the classes that go last, putting us right back to where we were to begin with, in terms of class balance and which ever ends up being best in slot going forward.

wolfie1.0.

nightbringer1993 wrote: »

I was dissapointed to see that the latest patch 49 did not offer any true balance changes and just DK got refreshed. In my opinion the class refresh order should have been different, especialy since subclassing and the many nerfs we had over the years

1:Nightblade
Nightblade should have been the first class to be remastered due to how overtuned the assassination skill line is and how the cloak feels uneeded nowadays. The crit damage buff should go along the cloak to have more class identity. And have two ro three charges of grim focus is just crazy. I play nightblade nowadays in PvP because my main class got nerfed so much and I can tell you how strong the assassination skill line and the other two skill line should get more love.

2:Necromancer
This class was my main class and the one that brought me into the game in 2019 and to see how many nerfs and unnecessary changes were made in the class made me change class against my will. The corpse limitation nuked the class script and corpseburster set due to corpse constantly dissappearing and the removal of stalking blastbone was a huge hit on the damage of the class, I rarely see anyone using grave lord sacrifice, and people just use the other blastbone, blastbone that is missing from the vengeance skills. Set like turning also gave access to the Maj vul debuff to other classes which also was a nerf on the class, as necros were not needed anymore for this debuff to happen. The summong are just too weak and not worth sloting especialy since scibbing and subclassing, and skill like totem and graps are just useless and we lack a proper stun skill in PvP. So many things could be done to this class, and people on forums made many threads concerning this. Putting necromancer last place for class refresh without counting arca was another insult to players who bought this class or the Elsweyr DLC. Last fall I was kicked out of a trial group right before we went in the trial just for being a necro.

3:Sorcerer
The pets of this class are not strong enought in my opinion as we have to slot them in both bars and other skills could go to these spots to buff up the damage. A pure class bonus could be created to have such thing in the game. Streak is also exemely powerful in PvP, so much that it is also the most used skill line in pvp because of it's mobility and stuns. I bet many sorc mains would find other reason to remaster the class.

4:Warden
The class also needs to be change as I feel other pets than the bear could be added to its tool kits and some skill and trait are just too strong. Deep fissure provide burst and both Maj and Min breach which is very strong, The free to cast netch is also very strong as it helps in sustain and provide the maj brut and sorc that most people require in DD builds. The class script also really needs a change because getting people stuck in walls with that mass charm is simply not acceptable, especialy in BGs or in IC in the next patch where we will not be able to port out of IC with 100+ tel var.

5:Dragonknight
This is where I would have placed DK and honestly the changes in the PTS will not make people run away from current meta such as arca beam DD or the warden OP builds in PvP

6. Templar
Ever since the jab change I have seen people unhappy with this, but once more just like NB, aedric and dawnwrath skill line are used mostly for their passive mixed with the arca beam meta.

7:Arcanist
The arcanist is the latest class added to the game so it's visual is particularly fine, but the beam build is simply too strong and trial groups just want to have them for it's DD

Conclusion
The current scheme of patchs we are seeing lately suggest that classes won't be balanced before 2028. For each class refresh there should be changes to other underpowered or overpowered classes. After that I understand that we all have our point of views concerning the subject, and I bet people will have different class order than mine, but honestly I don't feel like the one we are having right now is the right one.

I think that zos is doing these in the order thst they think they can make the meaningful changes work. Dk probably was the easiest and fastest, not really the one thst needed the most attention.

BardokRedSnow

Keep class refresh order

No because Im a DK main, I'm selfish, and too excited as is. Simple and honest.

Also of all the classes, DK skills look the most dated and needed a touchup the most. We can't even use our wings as a decent escape ability, and every meta we're strong people complain and nerf us into irrelevancy. We need the love.

Nightblade lol the only reason they need a touch up is to be toned down.

CaptainVenom

Change class refresh order

Necromancer is in dire need of rebalances more so than other classes right now.

nb_rich

Change class refresh order

I agree the order should change. Nightblade definitely should have been first. As a pure nightblade build for pve it’s very underwhelming.

They should also drop adjustments to some skills in other classes in the meantime also. We are going to go through 2 years of a new class being overpowered each patch. If its not overpowered everyone will just complain cause it probably won’t get updated for a few years after that. With updates to other classes throughout the process it will make things feel more balanced.

rlindsey912nub18_ESO

Change class refresh order

lol nb is definitely not overturned nb only has two skills that are used for dps incap and now proc so all nbs play the same exact way like seriously nb doesn’t even seem like a rogue class anymore they killed the rogue play style and made it a brawler that’s all nbs are today I guess that’s because the dev use to play nb brawler before joining zos

TX12001rwb17_ESO

No the order should be the base game classes first, not sure why Necromancer or Warden which are significantly newer classes are before nightblade, not even sure why Arcanist is going to be changed, wasn't making the other classes like Arcanist the whole point.

tomofhyrule

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

wasn't making the other classes like Arcanist the whole point.

No, it's making Arcanist more like the other classes.

In terms of the effects, sure. They want all classes to have unique and impactful animations and effects (yes, some would use the descriptors 'obnoxious' and 'flashy,' but YMMV). But what they found with Subclassing, despite all of the warnings to the contrary, was that strictly regimented Classes like Arcanist that have distinct lines for damage, tanking, and healing, are what's causing Subclassing to be ridiculously more powerful than pureclasses because it allows you to hard focus into specific roles.

The goal is to be more like the basegame classes, where each line follow a theme instead of a role, and then to also allow players to have synergies between lines to encourage pureclasses. That means players would actually need to make choices about their builds and meaningful sacrifices instead of just doing a brain-dead "derp I'm a DD so drop the non-DD lines duh."

Muizer

tomofhyrule wrote: »

In terms of the effects, sure. They want all classes to have unique and impactful animations and effects (yes, some would use the descriptors 'obnoxious' and 'flashy,' but YMMV).

We may assume that that was the only goal when they started the refresh with the DK. After all that was around the time subclassing was released: too early to have 'found' the problems with it. I think that explains why the article about the DK refresh is such an inconsistent muddle, because they had to somehow make (it seem) addressing subclassing issues was a part of the refresh when it actually wasn't. Basically they don't consider the problems caused by subclassing urgent enough to depart from a schedule that's based on making abilities look cool.

Kappachi

Keep class refresh order

i started warden and went necro and still play my necromancer more than anything else. it's fun & fine where it is for theorycrafting, i think Warden needs some heavy changes before necro, what should those be? no idea.

Radiate77

Change class refresh order

BardokRedSnow

Keep class refresh order

Muizer wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

In terms of the effects, sure. They want all classes to have unique and impactful animations and effects (yes, some would use the descriptors 'obnoxious' and 'flashy,' but YMMV).

We may assume that that was the only goal when they started the refresh with the DK. After all that was around the time subclassing was released: too early to have 'found' the problems with it. I think that explains why the article about the DK refresh is such an inconsistent muddle, because they had to somehow make (it seem) addressing subclassing issues was a part of the refresh when it actually wasn't. Basically they don't consider the problems caused by subclassing urgent enough to depart from a schedule that's based on making abilities look cool.

I dont agree with that at all, mostly because as a DK I noticed that I lost something for subclassing while gaining something for pureclassing in this refresh from the beginning. The shuffling of the skills shows the very thing Tom was talking about.

As it is now I can combine draconic power with any two other beneficial offensive skill lines because draconic power has pretty much everything you need for defense. Spikes and coagulated blood are great, and my favorite skill dragon leap, especially ferocious leap. I tried mixing it with the offensive templar line and animal companion, decent crit build although not as good as the one with sorcerer's storm calling, so I tried it instead with bone lord and leaned into being bursty with dizzy and having shalks n blast bones do some heavy lifting.

Both of these are far superior to just pure DKing and its possible because draconic power has too many of one kind of skill on the skill line. Meanwhile ardent flame and earthen heart dont have what i'd call "vital" skills to dking. Mix those up as they have and now I gotta rethink what I'll replace spikes or coagulated blood with. There's options of course but I wont have access to the same op heal and defensive skill right off the bat from just one skill line.

A better example of this if you applied the same logic, Animal Companion. As I mentioned I played around with shalks and other class skill lines, and I cant get over how crazy shalks is for pvp. Having bull netch, which gives stam or mag regen built into the skill, a free cast cleanse on command and also the craziest bursty debuffing skill both, plus warden wings all in the same skill tree is dummy good. It makes animal companion a stupid easy skill line to just drop wherever. Thats basically what you can see they're doing away with by how they handled the DK skill trees. It doesn't seem like a big deal until you start thinking about animal companion not having shalks wings or bull netch all together. Suddenly you gotta think twice about what you're gonna substitute.

That's what they've done with the DK from the jump, simple but effective. Easy to see if you're married to dragon leap and have been trying to keep the soul of a dk while subclassing still. To make things more balanced I think they definitely need to separate at least one of those skills from the rest. Bull netch from shalks and wings would be the most effective balancing act. It could go in green balance.

Alp

I might be reading it wrong but you want to get rid of cloak? It's like the most iconic part of nightblades.

Deimus

Keep class refresh order

Fellow Necro main that has only played very casually since last fall due to the extreme imbalance, homogenization, and poor implementation of subclassing killing a lot of my interest in PvP.

I completely understand your desire to have Necromancer be one of the first classes to be reworked, but I think it should be one of the last ones for a few reasons.

History of class balance endeavors in ESO
Balance has never been their strong suit. The last year before subclassing I personally think they were making much better progress than they ever have before, but subclassing threw the baby out with the bathwater. I want to believe last year has ZOS on full alert, but in case things end up like before Necro being at the end is beneficial, because whatever classes go first will likely be weaker by the time they overhaul the last classes if they don't abandon this class rework project halfway that is.

Necromancer will benefit from this rework more than any other class
The class most in need of a refresh has always been the Necromancer. I still want to see GLS tossed into the void. Stalking BB was the class signature skill. Its like getting rid of jesus beam, streak, whip, cloak, shalks, or fatecarver. Necro being at the end gives them time to create new better skills. A GLS that honors Stalking BB instead of defiling it, merging Bone totem and Empowering Grasp to make one actual good CC skill, freeing up a skill slot to create a brand new Necromancer ability (Flesh atronach or permanent pet please), reworking the passives to incorporate the corpse mechanic better, adding mobility somewhere in the class kit (maybe on Expunge to give it comparative value to Betty Netch and Cleansing Ritual, purges that have both prolonged beneficial secondary and tertiary effects). Necromancer being at the end gives them time to fix what is busted and add what is missing. Necro going first just feels like we'd get a nice new coat of paint to cover up the rust spots.

Communication
If the devs are serious about communication and transparency they can float ideas to us before too much work has gone into the refresh and we get stuck with bad ideas because it's cheaper to press on than start from scratch. There should be dedicated mod or dev threads for each class where the devs can outline their goals for the refresh of each class and get feedback from players that are dedicated to the class. So many changes with Necromancer hit the PTS with issues that Necro mains point out within an hour. With dedicated class communication threads and Necro being towards the end of the rework we can eliminate these issues so dev time isn't focused on fixing oversights that players pick up on immediately. I'm pretty sure the Necromancer has been the victim of this situation more than any other class too. Imagine the Necromancer we could have if there is a year+ of this back and forth communication between the dev team and the players.

If Necro is one of the first classes reworked I 100% think that the changes will be rushed and not actually address what the class needs. By the end of the refresh we will be in another three year period where the class is neglected and chained back up in the basement. For a successful Necromancer rework there needs to be ample time for the devs and communication with the Necro mains to avoid unintended interactions which will just be a huge waste of time that lowers the overall quality of the refresh.

Anumaril

Keep class refresh order

I was also disappointed at first to see Necromancer so far down the list, but honestly it makes sense. I imagine they're working on all classes simultaneously, not one at a time. The ones towards the end of the list have the deepest overhauls or require the most technical work, so they need more time to make that happen.

In the case of Necromancer, the description given for how its going to be updated seems to align with what I've been advocating for years: minion-focused skill lines which make the class more about raising the dead than being a generic 'dark wizard'. But this means completely overhauling the class from the ground-up. This isn't something they can do in only a handful of months.

nightbringer1993

Change class refresh order

Necromancers have been severely nerfed over the last three years. and when I saw that on PTS no changes were made on other classes exept for DK I felt like the class that brought me into this game will remain weakened up until 2028. I have a char that I am trying to do my best to keep up but I keep on being outmatched by all other classes. Wardens go crazy buffs lately especialy with their toxic charm class scripit. DK got buffed many times, was probably nerfed a bit but the perma corosive build had to be taken down. Sorc were completely OP in 2024, the same patch that nerfed blastbone. Templar have passives that are also OP for DD lines concerning crit damage builds.
Nightblade, well, let"s say that they don't look nightblade anymore with subclassing and assassination is just used for it"s passives and the cloak gameplay is just for trolling in PvP, because other skill lines are just far stronger in order to kill people. I went nightblade when necro got nuked with the blastbone nerf so I can tell that I miss the cloak gameplay. ZOS destroyed the game with subclassing, some classes more than others. And I stopped being necro for high end gameplay just because I was being kicked out for using that class or that I was too seriously outmatched by classes like warden in PvP or arca in PvE. In tanking necro is still ok, but people just want DK or wardens for that.
There were once again no changes on other classes on last PTS patched and if things follow the same paterns of this patch then it means that classes like necromancers or nightblade won't be balanced before 2028. It is way too long, especialy for classes like necromancer that have been nerfed like hell over the past three years, and having it last is a serious insult once again for those who play necro and were forced to change class for high end gameplay's sake. Cyro nowadays is full of toxic charm wardens, then the top DD is still arcanist and will remain arcanist for a long time if things follow the same pattern of last PTS patch notes. So there is absolutly no balance going on, and if this summer, wardens once again gets heavy buffs and that necro remains in the "grave" again, I will go mad and probably go on other games, because I am tired of seeing other classes that I don't use being buffed again and again and to see those I use being nuked with nerfs, and forcing others into other classes is not acceptable.

NxJoeyD

IMO rather than releasing the changes by class I’d work on all classes and plan to release all class adjustments together.

This would give the devs a chance to evaluate each classes change as they relate to one another.

One of the things that got us in this predicament in the first place is bad logic / bad ideas. Subclassing was a creative idea (in theory), but so many of us KNEW it would destroy PvP and that’s exactly what it did. What I mean by that is some abilities almost certainly were designed in a vacuum. Take one of our all time favorites, Deep Fissure, this ability is questionable whether it should exist, at all, in the way it was built. No class has a comparable counter play ability or mechanic to balance it out; obtaining both major and minor resolve aren’t possible from a single source and it’s obvious the devs didn’t think about that and this goes way before subclassing; it’s just that subclassing really exposed where the poor logic choices were made.

The main goal here is to elevate “base class” characters but let’s not forget that even with that we have mechanics in the game (more so PvP related) that one needs to question whether they should even exist or not. One has to question whether overall power creep has gotten too high (in general). That doesn’t mean “nerf-a-thon” but it does mean this is a chance to look more at the big picture which doesn’t seem to be something BGS or ZoS do much of.

IMO PvE can be a lot more of “anything goes”. I love the ideas people can get for builds with subclassing. .. but as it relates to PvP I also think that even with these adjustments there needs to be a focus on the “macro” as well as the “micro” which is why I think there’s value in taking the time to do it correctly rather than one at a time.

Radiate77

Change class refresh order

If we could even just get 2 at a time next year, that would be huge.

Deimus

Keep class refresh order

nightbringer1993 wrote: »

Necromancers have been severely nerfed over the last three years. and when I saw that on PTS no changes were made on other classes exept for DK I felt like the class that brought me into this game will remain weakened up until 2028. I have a char that I am trying to do my best to keep up but I keep on being outmatched by all other classes. Wardens go crazy buffs lately especialy with their toxic charm class scripit. DK got buffed many times, was probably nerfed a bit but the perma corosive build had to be taken down. Sorc were completely OP in 2024, the same patch that nerfed blastbone. Templar have passives that are also OP for DD lines concerning crit damage builds.
Nightblade, well, let"s say that they don't look nightblade anymore with subclassing and assassination is just used for it"s passives and the cloak gameplay is just for trolling in PvP, because other skill lines are just far stronger in order to kill people. I went nightblade when necro got nuked with the blastbone nerf so I can tell that I miss the cloak gameplay. ZOS destroyed the game with subclassing, some classes more than others. And I stopped being necro for high end gameplay just because I was being kicked out for using that class or that I was too seriously outmatched by classes like warden in PvP or arca in PvE. In tanking necro is still ok, but people just want DK or wardens for that.
There were once again no changes on other classes on last PTS patched and if things follow the same paterns of this patch then it means that classes like necromancers or nightblade won't be balanced before 2028. It is way too long, especialy for classes like necromancer that have been nerfed like hell over the past three years, and having it last is a serious insult once again for those who play necro and were forced to change class for high end gameplay's sake. Cyro nowadays is full of toxic charm wardens, then the top DD is still arcanist and will remain arcanist for a long time if things follow the same pattern of last PTS patch notes. So there is absolutly no balance going on, and if this summer, wardens once again gets heavy buffs and that necro remains in the "grave" again, I will go mad and probably go on other games, because I am tired of seeing other classes that I don't use being buffed again and again and to see those I use being nuked with nerfs, and forcing others into other classes is not acceptable.

GLS was a huge nerf, but the year leading up to subclassing Necro was in the best place it has been since they killed Grave Robber and Harmony.

We got:

• Major Brut/Sorc
• Major Sav/Proph
• Bone Armor got an increase to 30 seconds and Minor Resolve to free up a bar slot that Necro desperately needed.
• Damage buff on Shocking Siphon that works well with both Class sets
• The sticky Major Breach and Minor Vuln on Boneyard
• Corpseburster which for me is the most fun set in the game to use.

Before these changes it wasn't even an argument that Necromancer was the worst class in the game by a large margin. These changes gave us the tools to compete, but you're right that subclassing destroyed this.

DM me and I'll show you what I ran in battlegrounds. Cyro isn't even worth playing right now imo, and there's nothing wrong with taking breaks from the game. I did and came back to the game when scribing was announced only to start posting on the forums, because the Necromancer was still in the same sorry state that caused me to step away during Blackwood.

I suggest finding another game that scratches whatever itch you need scratched and play ESO casually following the forum updates and such. We need the voice of the Necro mains for this rework so in like a year and a half we can be happy about the outcome. That also gives them time to work out the mess that is subclassing and heal/shield stacking so when we get Necro 2 undead boogaloo the state of high end gameplay might be worth playing again.

Ratzkifal

Change class refresh order

I get starting with DK as a baseline and then going from there. But in terms of what classes needed reworks, Sorcerer was pretty much always the first one coming to mind.
Dark Magic underwent so many changes and other than Negate and Crystal fragment/weapon it still hasn't really settled on an identity. Stom Calling in the context of Subclassing is obnoxiously powerful (it was perfectly fine before). And Daedric Summoning is probably by far the most controversial skill line of all, with a considerable portion of the class' own playerbase being unwilling to engage with its main feature - pets - for various reasons. Do not make the pets mandatory. Also do not remove the possibility to petsorc. Keep it powerful. Keep it optional. I beg you.

After that, Warden seems appropriate considering the entire concept was rather ill-conceived with the Morrowind thematic ties being too strong for most characters and Ice being declared a tank element which nobody asked for.

Necromancer next. The theme is strong, the class is kind of horrible but also not too horrible and the worst part about it is that there is too much functional overlap. Two tethers? Summon Skeleton that buffs/Summon Ghost that heals and yet until recently tanks had no natural way of generating corpses quickly, which is a blunder that Arcanist tanks have clearly learned from.

Nightblade and Templar are left, both of which have strong themes and powerful skill lines that stop subclassing from being mandatory for them. Their biggest issue is that they are offering the other classes too many benefits for little to no drawbacks.

Arcanist is Arcanist. Time will tell if it can still keep up after the reworks, but this is where we'd want the other classes to end up in terms of power and strength of identity.

cyberjanet

After looking at the DK on the PTS, I don't really understand what they're trying to do. It seems they're just giving new skills that can be subclassed. But I guess it's the first week, maybe something better will still come.

But if that's all they're going to do, order doesn't really matter.