ESO: A Tale of Three Targets

Gabriel_H

katanagirl1 wrote: »

It is an assumption based on observation in the game though, right? Just because there are two different variables in the code doesn’t mean the targeting is using both of them. The explanation by HatchetHero seems to match what I have noticed. I need to go back and reread all, this is a wonderful discussion of the topic. I am not being argumentative for the sake of doing so but to make sure we are clear and basing assumptions, if we have to make them, on all of the data and observations. I also have no experience with the variables that are within the information you guys use for add-ons on PC so I have no reference to compare.

No. It's based on utilizing both functions and seeing that the output is different, as well as the obeservations in game which are frankly beyond dispute.

This is allowing a mob interaction without the reticle, therefore there must be a secondary targetting system:

mdjessup4906

lillybit wrote: »

mdjessup4906 wrote: »

It would be wonderful if reticle targeting could be the only thing you need, but with lag, desync, whatever i cant see that working so well.

That wouldn't work for controllers as it's also the camera and sometimes you need to look around, like watching for mechanics

I don't understand.
I play on controller and the reticle is the camera/player look direction. If im pointing reticle at something im aiming at it. If im looking around reticle comes with and im no longer aiming at the thing. I dont pay any attention to player model direction unless I need to for a mechanic, like for gravel deep last boss.

Maybe its fps mentality, but I dont expect to hit anything if im not purposely aiming at it.
And certainly not get yoinked backwards by a completely out of frame highlight.

mdjessup4906

especially in cases where players are cheating the environment and using the targeting to taunt or pull enemies that are behind other enemies (especially very... large ones where it's impossible to see around them). Players should move or reposition.

Do you tank? Like, hard stuff?

CP5

HatchetHaro wrote: »

I'm not sure about the interaction system, but I have investigated how tab-targeting works, so I feel I am able to inform. Tab-targeting may be unintuitive, but once you understand how it actually works, it's actually quite consistent, and is a very powerful tool when it comes to precise targeting.

Each target in the game has two hitboxes: a small one, roughly the size of the target, and a larger one. These hitboxes respond to a singular line trace from the game camera to the center of your reticle. When your reticle is within the larger hitbox but not the smaller one, the target will receive a red glow outline. However, if your reticle is within the small hitbox, the reticle visibly shrinks as well.

By default, the small hitbox doesn’t directly affect targeting; targeted abilities and attacks will respond to the first large hitbox your camera trace hits; generally, this will be the closest target. It does get funky when the target is abnormally large (e.g. Saint Olms and Taleria), as their large hitboxes may overlap your camera.

When you tab your target, your selected target will receive a white glow outline. When you hover your reticle over the small hitbox of that target, all of your targeted abilities will hit them, excluding environmental collisions. However, this precise targeting does not apply if you are not hovering over your tabbed-target's small hitbox; the usual large hitbox rules apply.

So to recap, how to properly target your tabbed target:

1. Tab your target.
2. Position your reticle directly over your tabbed target's small hitbox (within the white glow outline).

To be clear, how tab-targeting actually works is very obscure, so I do not blame anyone for calling it broken. I've explained this mechanic to many of my fellow raiders whenever they're having targeting trouble and the first responses are often disbelief and denial, and then amazement when it actually works.

I want to jump off of this to explain the original, and in my opinion, better, tab targeting system the game had on launch. In ye olden day, hitting tab on a target would put a rectangle over them, marked by four solid white triangles. This rectangle would occupy most of the screen, and while your crosshair was inside the rectangle you would be locked onto that target, only when your crosshair left the rectangle would it shrink somewhat, and the solid white triangles would become hollow, showing you weren't locked on anymore. Then you could put your crosshair back into that volume to lock on again, causing the volume to increase in size again to help maintain the lock. It was so much better than having to keep your crosshair inside the enemies silhouette.

mdjessup4906

CP5 wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

I'm not sure about the interaction system, but I have investigated how tab-targeting works, so I feel I am able to inform. Tab-targeting may be unintuitive, but once you understand how it actually works, it's actually quite consistent, and is a very powerful tool when it comes to precise targeting.

Each target in the game has two hitboxes: a small one, roughly the size of the target, and a larger one. These hitboxes respond to a singular line trace from the game camera to the center of your reticle. When your reticle is within the larger hitbox but not the smaller one, the target will receive a red glow outline. However, if your reticle is within the small hitbox, the reticle visibly shrinks as well.

By default, the small hitbox doesn’t directly affect targeting; targeted abilities and attacks will respond to the first large hitbox your camera trace hits; generally, this will be the closest target. It does get funky when the target is abnormally large (e.g. Saint Olms and Taleria), as their large hitboxes may overlap your camera.

When you tab your target, your selected target will receive a white glow outline. When you hover your reticle over the small hitbox of that target, all of your targeted abilities will hit them, excluding environmental collisions. However, this precise targeting does not apply if you are not hovering over your tabbed-target's small hitbox; the usual large hitbox rules apply.

So to recap, how to properly target your tabbed target:

1. Tab your target.
2. Position your reticle directly over your tabbed target's small hitbox (within the white glow outline).

To be clear, how tab-targeting actually works is very obscure, so I do not blame anyone for calling it broken. I've explained this mechanic to many of my fellow raiders whenever they're having targeting trouble and the first responses are often disbelief and denial, and then amazement when it actually works.

I want to jump off of this to explain the original, and in my opinion, better, tab targeting system the game had on launch. In ye olden day, hitting tab on a target would put a rectangle over them, marked by four solid white triangles. This rectangle would occupy most of the screen, and while your crosshair was inside the rectangle you would be locked onto that target, only when your crosshair left the rectangle would it shrink somewhat, and the solid white triangles would become hollow, showing you weren't locked on anymore. Then you could put your crosshair back into that volume to lock on again, causing the volume to increase in size again to help maintain the lock. It was so much better than having to keep your crosshair inside the enemies silhouette.

Im sure there was a very good well thought out reason for changing this to whatever tf we have now. Very good. The best.

Gabriel_H

I do just want to add about tab-targeting. Yes, at present it can be used to discern between mobs that are stacked on each other - but that shouldn't be a thing either.

katanagirl1

Gabriel_H wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

It is an assumption based on observation in the game though, right? Just because there are two different variables in the code doesn’t mean the targeting is using both of them. The explanation by HatchetHero seems to match what I have noticed. I need to go back and reread all, this is a wonderful discussion of the topic. I am not being argumentative for the sake of doing so but to make sure we are clear and basing assumptions, if we have to make them, on all of the data and observations. I also have no experience with the variables that are within the information you guys use for add-ons on PC so I have no reference to compare.

No. It's based on utilizing both functions and seeing that the output is different, as well as the obeservations in game which are frankly beyond dispute.

This is allowing a mob interaction without the reticle, therefore there must be a secondary targetting system:

That npc is not an enemy.

LunaFlora

i wish we could tab target with Controllers

mdjessup4906

LunaFlora wrote: »

i wish we could tab target with Controllers

You can. I play with controller on pc and changed the tab key to use a controller button. Gamepad has a default one too but idk what it is.

AnduinTryggva

StihlReign wrote: »

Nice post, good points. Be nice if they just removed tab target and gave priority to the reticle game camera issue. They could probably make the camera transitions between those two look really seamless, raise the skill level and remove the auto-target problems from the game.

I beg to differ.

The current tab targetting could get a nice update to make handling better.

BUT: Overall it is pretty useful.

While I do understand your points which I would make if I only played dd I have a different pov because I play as tank too and here tab targetting is absolutely essential when I have to pick a specifically hard-hitting npc from a mob that I need to taunt but which stands or runs in the middle of a mob and which other smaller and no-issue npc obscure. Without tabbing I would always taunt one of the small npc and could not taunt the big issue.

mdjessup4906

Imo,

IF target is highlighted AND in player fov then tabbed enemy always takes priority.

IF target is highlighted but is out of frame, THEN reticle immediately takes priority.

IF nothing is highlighted, reticle takes priority.

And just to be complete, highlight on enemy STAYS PUT THE ENTIRE TIME ENEMY IS ALIVE OR UNTIL PLAYER MOVES IT regardless of if the npc jumps, teleports, or otherwise bouncy bounces all around the damn room. And once enemy dies highlight disables completely until player puts it on another target.

StihlReign

Tanks should definitely have better tools and positioning should matter. (sorry to hear about the bear)
If players need the feature for tanking, it should probably be an ability, slotted for use by tanks, with maybe a damage reduction caveat.

Let's say you could use autotargeting as it is now, but as an ability, as a tank, with the caveat all damage is capped at 5%. A tank would check that box to enable the camera and function. This might make more sense.

They should fix targeting and remove autotargeting, especially in cases where players are cheating the environment and using the targeting to taunt or pull enemies that are behind other enemies (especially very... large ones where it's impossible to see around them). Players should move or reposition.

lillybit

LunaFlora wrote: »

i wish we could tab target with Controllers

Point the reticle at what you want to target and press down on the right stick like you're going in to sneak but hold it a bit longer. A white outline will show around whatever you're targeting.

Half the time it doesn't work and you'll just go in to sneak anyway but it's there!

LunaFlora

lillybit wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

i wish we could tab target with Controllers

Point the reticle at what you want to target and press down on the right stick like you're going in to sneak but hold it a bit longer. A white outline will show around whatever you're targeting.

Half the time it doesn't work and you'll just go in to sneak anyway but it's there!

thanks for the explanation, that is news to me so i will try it out today

AnduinTryggva

StihlReign wrote: »

Tanks should definitely have better tools and positioning should matter. (sorry to hear about the bear)
If players need the feature for tanking, it should probably be an ability, slotted for use by tanks, with maybe a damage reduction caveat.

Let's say you could use autotargeting as it is now, but as an ability, as a tank, with the caveat all damage is capped at 5%. A tank would check that box to enable the camera and function. This might make more sense.

They should fix targeting and remove autotargeting, especially in cases where players are cheating the environment and using the targeting to taunt or pull enemies that are behind other enemies (especially very... large ones where it's impossible to see around them). Players should move or reposition.

Woha! Now tanks shall lose a slot for an ability like shield, buff etc. so YOU can play the game the way YOU like.

I have another suggestion to make. Why do YOU not adapt to how it is now?

I suggest to add a dd ability that deactivates autotargeting so that you can slot it

I stop here. It is apparent that some people have no experience with tanking and how essential tabbing and taunting is in many circumstances that represent a large portion of what the game actually is (vet trials and dungeons, arenas etc.)

Gabriel_H

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

It is an assumption based on observation in the game though, right? Just because there are two different variables in the code doesn’t mean the targeting is using both of them. The explanation by HatchetHero seems to match what I have noticed. I need to go back and reread all, this is a wonderful discussion of the topic. I am not being argumentative for the sake of doing so but to make sure we are clear and basing assumptions, if we have to make them, on all of the data and observations. I also have no experience with the variables that are within the information you guys use for add-ons on PC so I have no reference to compare.

No. It's based on utilizing both functions and seeing that the output is different, as well as the obeservations in game which are frankly beyond dispute.

This is allowing a mob interaction without the reticle, therefore there must be a secondary targetting system:

That npc is not an enemy.

And? As I said in my opening post: "There is however a secondary targetting mechanism: The game camera. This primarily comes into play when interacting with an NPC, things like initialing conversation or pickpocketing. Though even that is inconsistent as sometimes the interaction defaults to the reticle. The game camera is a larger capture area than the reticle and does not require directly looking at the NPC. As you can see the NPC is neither center screen nor am I facing him."

Gabriel_H

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

While I do understand your points which I would make if I only played dd I have a different pov because I play as tank too and here tab targetting is absolutely essential when I have to pick a specifically hard-hitting npc from a mob that I need to taunt but which stands or runs in the middle of a mob and which other smaller and no-issue npc obscure. Without tabbing I would always taunt one of the small npc and could not taunt the big issue.

To be clear (again) I'm not saying it's not useful or that it should be removed but simply overhauled.

Your post highlights two broken game mechanics.

1) Mobs stacking inside each other
2) LoS ceases to exist when using tab-target

Mobs running in-front of others, or rather or being uncontrolled so that they do so, should be part of a fight. Tanks having to stay in the correct position, mobs having to be controlled, etc.

Gabriel_H

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

I stop here. It is apparent that some people have no experience with tanking and how essential tabbing and taunting is in many circumstances that represent a large portion of what the game actually is (vet trials and dungeons, arenas etc.)

Tanked everything in the game including HM trials.

I rarely use tab-target because I find it too inconsistent and unintuative, for the reasons I have mentioned in the above posts. I find it much more stable to move position and taunt, keeping mobs stacked, then pulling in lesser mobs for easy cleave kills and clearing the battlefield.

Soarora

Gabriel_H wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

I stop here. It is apparent that some people have no experience with tanking and how essential tabbing and taunting is in many circumstances that represent a large portion of what the game actually is (vet trials and dungeons, arenas etc.)

Tanked everything in the game including HM trials.

I rarely use tab-target because I find it too inconsistent and unintuative, for the reasons I have mentioned in the above posts. I find it much more stable to move position and taunt, keeping mobs stacked, then pulling in lesser mobs for easy cleave kills and clearing the battlefield.

Your original post is fine and agreeable. StihlReign is who we’re arguing with.

AnduinTryggva

Gabriel_H wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

I stop here. It is apparent that some people have no experience with tanking and how essential tabbing and taunting is in many circumstances that represent a large portion of what the game actually is (vet trials and dungeons, arenas etc.)

Tanked everything in the game including HM trials.

I rarely use tab-target because I find it too inconsistent and unintuative, for the reasons I have mentioned in the above posts. I find it much more stable to move position and taunt, keeping mobs stacked, then pulling in lesser mobs for easy cleave kills and clearing the battlefield.

My reply was not directed at you. Your post is absolutely fine and while we might have a different view on some parts of the topic I am absolutely fine with your pov. It is the other user who wants to impose his/her view on others without considerations of other pov.

Gabriel_H

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

I stop here. It is apparent that some people have no experience with tanking and how essential tabbing and taunting is in many circumstances that represent a large portion of what the game actually is (vet trials and dungeons, arenas etc.)

Tanked everything in the game including HM trials.

I rarely use tab-target because I find it too inconsistent and unintuative, for the reasons I have mentioned in the above posts. I find it much more stable to move position and taunt, keeping mobs stacked, then pulling in lesser mobs for easy cleave kills and clearing the battlefield.

My reply was not directed at you. Your post is absolutely fine and while we might have a different view on some parts of the topic I am absolutely fine with your pov. It is the other user who wants to impose his/her view on others without considerations of other pov.

What can I say. Long day!

katanagirl1

Gabriel_H wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

It is an assumption based on observation in the game though, right? Just because there are two different variables in the code doesn’t mean the targeting is using both of them. The explanation by HatchetHero seems to match what I have noticed. I need to go back and reread all, this is a wonderful discussion of the topic. I am not being argumentative for the sake of doing so but to make sure we are clear and basing assumptions, if we have to make them, on all of the data and observations. I also have no experience with the variables that are within the information you guys use for add-ons on PC so I have no reference to compare.

No. It's based on utilizing both functions and seeing that the output is different, as well as the obeservations in game which are frankly beyond dispute.

This is allowing a mob interaction without the reticle, therefore there must be a secondary targetting system:

That npc is not an enemy.

And? As I said in my opening post: "There is however a secondary targetting mechanism: The game camera. This primarily comes into play when interacting with an NPC, things like initialing conversation or pickpocketing. Though even that is inconsistent as sometimes the interaction defaults to the reticle. The game camera is a larger capture area than the reticle and does not require directly looking at the NPC. As you can see the NPC is neither center screen nor am I facing him."

Your original post seemed to imply that these two targeting methods were working in a contradictory way for targeting enemies and that was the problem, as I read it.

StihlReign

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

Woha! Now tanks shall lose a slot for an ability like shield, buff etc. so YOU can play the game the way YOU like.

I have another suggestion to make. Why do YOU not adapt to how it is now?

I suggest to add a dd ability that deactivates autotargeting so that you can slot it

I stop here. It is apparent that some people have no experience with tanking and how essential tabbing and taunting is in many circumstances that represent a large portion of what the game actually is (vet trials and dungeons, arenas etc.)

Why would you lose a slot over a checkbox? This was an option presented as well. Since we're discussing a camera, the option that makes the most sense to me, is the in-game Settings Menu. Add the box, turn on the option, cap the damage.

I understand how it works and why you want it. It still doesn't diminish - it feels like a hack vs an ability. If it's an ability that requires skill - define it and slot it. If it's an option, check the box. Or leave it how it is since it's essential for you to look through characters to target an enemy you can't otherwise see.

I have adapted to how it is now, it's been no other way.

I like tanks, even if everyone considers you a dying breed...perhaps unique skills/abilities for tanks would benefit you more than the generic path...

HatchetHaro

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Another example.
Two mobs.
Front mob partially obscures rear mob.
Rear mob is both under reticle and tab targetted when skill fired.
Both are within Charge skill range.



Charge skill hits front mob. As seen from the positioning.

My guy, your reticle is outside of the small hitbox of the Sixth House Clarion Seer (your tabbed target). Check which enemy has the red glow outline.

Reticle outside the hitbox = Tormentor targeted:

Reticle within the hitbox = Clarion Seer targeted:

Here's me hitting the Clarion Seer with Critical Charge from that position:

mdjessup4906

Gff

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Another example.
Two mobs.
Front mob partially obscures rear mob.
Rear mob is both under reticle and tab targetted when skill fired.
Both are within Charge skill range.



Charge skill hits front mob. As seen from the positioning.

My guy, your reticle is outside of the small hitbox of the Sixth House Clarion Seer (your tabbed target). Check which enemy has the red glow outline.

Reticle outside the hitbox = Tormentor targeted:

Reticle within the hitbox = Clarion Seer targeted:

Here's me hitting the Clarion Seer with Critical Charge from that position:

And while were at it, add settings to change BOTH those glows to custom colors and intensity and add an option for a hard outline because theres enough glowy *** in fights.

HatchetHaro

mdjessup4906 wrote: »

Gff

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Another example.
Two mobs.
Front mob partially obscures rear mob.
Rear mob is both under reticle and tab targetted when skill fired.
Both are within Charge skill range.



Charge skill hits front mob. As seen from the positioning.

My guy, your reticle is outside of the small hitbox of the Sixth House Clarion Seer (your tabbed target). Check which enemy has the red glow outline.

Reticle outside the hitbox = Tormentor targeted:

Reticle within the hitbox = Clarion Seer targeted:

Here's me hitting the Clarion Seer with Critical Charge from that position:

And while were at it, add settings to change BOTH those glows to custom colors and intensity and add an option for a hard outline because theres enough glowy *** in fights.

Agreed. The good news is that there's already an addon called TheShining that lets you change the intensity of that target glow.

mdjessup4906

HatchetHaro wrote: »

mdjessup4906 wrote: »

Gff

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Another example.
Two mobs.
Front mob partially obscures rear mob.
Rear mob is both under reticle and tab targetted when skill fired.
Both are within Charge skill range.



Charge skill hits front mob. As seen from the positioning.

My guy, your reticle is outside of the small hitbox of the Sixth House Clarion Seer (your tabbed target). Check which enemy has the red glow outline.

Reticle outside the hitbox = Tormentor targeted:

Reticle within the hitbox = Clarion Seer targeted:

Here's me hitting the Clarion Seer with Critical Charge from that position:

And while were at it, add settings to change BOTH those glows to custom colors and intensity and add an option for a hard outline because theres enough glowy *** in fights.

Agreed. The good news is that there's already an addon called TheShining that lets you change the intensity of that target glow.

I use that, but unfortunately updates often break it.

Ezhh

StihlReign wrote: »

Tanks should definitely have better tools and positioning should matter. (sorry to hear about the bear)
If players need the feature for tanking, it should probably be an ability, slotted for use by tanks, with maybe a damage reduction caveat.

Let's say you could use autotargeting as it is now, but as an ability, as a tank, with the caveat all damage is capped at 5%. A tank would check that box to enable the camera and function. This might make more sense.

Do you realise there are plenty of valid reasons for damage dealers to tab target too? Healers as well! This "solution" would break how I play regardless of role.

Also when I tank, why in the world should my damage be capped just so I can correctly target things? There are plenty of cases where a person who taunts might also want to try and push some damage.

If you (or someone else) personally dislikes tab targetting so much, maybe just unbind the key.