ESO: A Tale of Three Targets

Gabriel_H · October 25

There are THREE targetting mechanisms in ESO, one of which is redundant, and one that is inconsistent.

The primary targetting mechanism is the reticle - standard practice. You hover over something/someone you can then interact or attack it. If I were to turn the reticle slightly left here I would be able to interact with the bookcase for example.

There is however a secondary targetting mechanism: The game camera. This primarily comes into play when interacting with an NPC, things like initialing conversation or pickpocketing. Though even that is inconsistent as sometimes the interaction defaults to the reticle. The game camera is a larger capture area than the reticle and does not require directly looking at the NPC. As you can see the NPC is neither center screen nor am I facing him.

Here, due to the "wall", the interaction is on the reticle rather than the game camera, even though it is an NPC interaction:

Which begs the question: Why is there an interaction on the game camera? I honestly can't think of one single pro, and the cons are well known to anyone who plays any length of time - NPC getting in the way of looting or object interaction even though they are not under the reticle is the most obvious because the game camera takes priority over the reticle. Why not simply have all interactions based on the reticle?

We then come to the tertiary targetting mechanism: Preferred-Target (Or Tab-Target as it is commonly known). The notion of a preferred target is a sensible one, given that players often fight swarms of mobs however the implementation is well known for being awful. Case in point:

Two mobs side by side, right one tab-targetted, reticle over the left mob. Which mob did my Critical Charge skill hit? The left mob. Meaning in this instance reticle took priority over tab. That is not always the case, and once engaged in combat typically the tab targetted mob will get struck - but that isn't consistent either. It's also worth noting if you have a mob tab-tagetted and turn away from them, and move so they are off the screen and no mob is under the reticle, and then use a skill you'll do a 180 and hit the tab-targetted mob.

So what we have is a situation where by and large: Secondary > Primary > Specified (unless mob is off screen)

There have been long-running complaints about targetting in ESO, particulary around tab-target. That there is conflict between the targetting methods, and inconsistencies, leaves room for not only poor combat experiences but also exploitation of the mechanics.

Please, @ZOS, your targetting system needs a complete overhaul.

StihlReign · October 26

Nice post, good points. Be nice if they just removed tab target and gave priority to the reticle game camera issue. They could probably make the camera transitions between those two look really seamless, raise the skill level and remove the auto-target problems from the game.

lillybit · October 26

Can I just point out that 4 of the 6 servers use a (slower) controller rather than keyboard and mouse. That's as well as the PC players who choose to use a controller too. Not saying this wouldn't be an improvement for us too (I don't do end game so I'm not the best judge) but sometimes things aren't in the game for kb&m users

StihlReign · October 26

lillybit wrote: »

Can I just point out that 4 of the 6 servers use a (slower) controller rather than keyboard and mouse. That's as well as the PC players who choose to use a controller too. Not saying this wouldn't be an improvement for us too (I don't do end game so I'm not the best judge) but sometimes things aren't in the game for kb&m users

This would be an improved experience.

lillybit · October 26

StihlReign wrote: »

lillybit wrote: »

Can I just point out that 4 of the 6 servers use a (slower) controller rather than keyboard and mouse. That's as well as the PC players who choose to use a controller too. Not saying this wouldn't be an improvement for us too (I don't do end game so I'm not the best judge) but sometimes things aren't in the game for kb&m users

This would be an improved experience.

Thanks 😊 the forum tends to be quite pc-centric and op talked about camera and reticle as seperate things which they aren't with a controller. Apologies for my reaction!

SeaGtGruff · October 26

The tab-targeting does have its usefulness in certain situations, but I often end up activating it by mistake and then cannot deactivate it, or if I'm trying to activate it to target a specific target (such as a given player in PvP who is running all over the place) then it's almost impossible to select the desired target.

The camera-targeting can be aggravating, because it often targets things which are behind my character when I'm wanting to target something directly in front of my character.

Simplifying the whole process would be great, but I'm already disgruntled over the change they made several years ago before companions were added to the game, when a lot of players were running around with their banking or merchant assistants out all the time instead of just summoning them when needed and then unsummoning them, and as a consequence of having one of their assistants out all the time they were having trouble interacting with things because their assistants kept getting targeted instead. So in response to the complaints from those players, the way the targeting works was fiddled with and now it has become much more difficult to interact with an assistant if there's anything else even remotely nearby, whether in front, to the side, or behind me. And of course now no one runs around with an assistant out all the time like they used to because they've got a companion out instead. So thanks, everyone. /grumpyoldman

Gabriel_H · October 26

Just to add. Having three competing targetting systems, with code presumably checking which one takes priority, cannot be good for performance.

Tab-Tagetting is useful, but it is very situatioonal, and I typically only use it when the reticle target doesn't actually target what it is over.

katanagirl1 · October 26

Is there some reference about multiple targeting systems for this game that you can site here? I am not trolling but am genuinely interested since I have not seen anything about it. Otherwise I would think you came to this conclusion based on observation.

I have noticed the targeting issues but was wondering if they were due to the game physics selecting what is closer to your character if two objects are near the reticle, like it is taking preference for that or is only using the distance in the X direction instead of the Y direction, if the coordinate system is a right-hand system centered on the character that rotates as the camera is rotated. The X direction would be a line extending to the sides of the character and the Y direction would be a line extending out in front and behind of the character.

I actually like the tab targeting system on controller and would not want that removed, but it is a little hard to activate since you use the right joystick and hold it down for several seconds before it engages, and oftentimes you just end up getting stealthed instead.

StihlReign · October 26

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

The tab-targeting does have its usefulness in certain situations, but I often end up activating it by mistake and then cannot deactivate it, or if I'm trying to activate it to target a specific target (such as a given player in PvP who is running all over the place) then it's almost impossible to select the desired target.

Autotargeting should probably just be disabled by default in PvP, not really sure how it's useful any other time...maybe for new PvE players until about level 20 or so.

Gabriel_H · October 26

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Is there some reference about multiple targeting systems for this game that you can site here? I am not trolling but am genuinely interested since I have not seen anything about it. Otherwise I would think you came to this conclusion based on observation.

The API for addons has two seperate formulas for various information pulls. One for reticle, the other is for game camera. Using both at once can cause a different name to be pulled, as you may be retciled over one NPC, but the position of the other NPC means the game camera is making it the interactable. Tab-Target is just there as part of the combat system and has it's own game key setting.

Just to be clear: I'm also not suggesting tab-target be removed, but it needs a massive overhaul. And imo should act differently depending on the role you are.

katanagirl1 · October 27

Gabriel_H wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Is there some reference about multiple targeting systems for this game that you can site here? I am not trolling but am genuinely interested since I have not seen anything about it. Otherwise I would think you came to this conclusion based on observation.

The API for addons has two seperate formulas for various information pulls. One for reticle, the other is for game camera. Using both at once can cause a different name to be pulled, as you may be retciled over one NPC, but the position of the other NPC means the game camera is making it the interactable. Tab-Target is just there as part of the combat system and has it's own game key setting.

Just to be clear: I'm also not suggesting tab-target be removed, but it needs a massive overhaul. And imo should act differently depending on the role you are.

Is there enough info there to know that both of these are actually used for targeting in the game code? Since I don’t have insight into this it would seem like it is an assumption.

I have also noticed that when waiting at Fort Dragonclaw in Cyrodiil and turning the camera from Winter’s Peak to Bruma and Dragonclaw farm and back that even though I am not moving, the distance to Bruma in the markers of the compass changes slightly, so something definitely is going on but not clear what it is yet.

Soarora · October 27

StihlReign wrote: »

Nice post, good points. Be nice if they just removed tab target and gave priority to the reticle game camera issue. They could probably make the camera transitions between those two look really seamless, raise the skill level and remove the auto-target problems from the game.

Tab target shouldn't be removed-- I use it all the time to taunt or pull enemies that are behind other enemies (especially very... large ones where it's impossible to see around them). It does need help, though. I've heard of people hitting things BEHIND them due to tab targeting. It'd also be nice to see more options around the tab target aura... "Triplets" in halls of fabrication is a very good example where the thin white line is impossible to see and yet extremely necessary.

mdjessup4906 · October 27

. It's also worth noting if you have a mob tab-tagetted and turn away from them, and move so they are off the screen and no mob is under the reticle, and then use a skill you'll do a 180 and hit the tab-targetted mob.

This 1000% happens. Ive learned not to tab target twins on Voc hm lest I switch bosses only to end up stampeding backwards to where I was.

Tab target (ON screen) should take priority over everything otherwise what's ti even for. Love it when the game decides what adds my chain will actually pull based on vibes and not what ive actually highlighted so I can see the damn thing through all the flashbang.

mdjessup4906 · October 27

It would be wonderful if reticle targeting could be the only thing you need, but with lag, desync, whatever i cant see that working so well.

mdjessup4906 · October 27

Also yes custom colors and brightness for EVERY THING. Theres an addon that did this somewhat, but every update breaks it.

StihlReign · October 27

Soarora wrote: »

StihlReign wrote: »

Nice post, good points. Be nice if they just removed tab target and gave priority to the reticle game camera issue. They could probably make the camera transitions between those two look really seamless, raise the skill level and remove the auto-target problems from the game.

Tab target shouldn't be removed-- I use it all the time to taunt or pull enemies that are behind other enemies (especially very... large ones where it's impossible to see around them). It does need help, though. I've heard of people hitting things BEHIND them due to tab targeting. It'd also be nice to see more options around the tab target aura... "Triplets" in halls of fabrication is a very good example where the thin white line is impossible to see and yet extremely necessary.

They should fix targeting and remove autotargeting, especially in cases where players are cheating the environment and using the targeting to taunt or pull enemies that are behind other enemies (especially very... large ones where it's impossible to see around them). Players should move or reposition.

Autotargeting is broken, and enabling broken mechanics.

HatchetHaro · October 27

I'm not sure about the interaction system, but I have investigated how tab-targeting works, so I feel I am able to inform. Tab-targeting may be unintuitive, but once you understand how it actually works, it's actually quite consistent, and is a very powerful tool when it comes to precise targeting.

Each target in the game has two hitboxes: a small one, roughly the size of the target, and a larger one. These hitboxes respond to a singular line trace from the game camera to the center of your reticle. When your reticle is within the larger hitbox but not the smaller one, the target will receive a red glow outline. However, if your reticle is within the small hitbox, the reticle visibly shrinks as well.

By default, the small hitbox doesn’t directly affect targeting; targeted abilities and attacks will respond to the first large hitbox your camera trace hits; generally, this will be the closest target. It does get funky when the target is abnormally large (e.g. Saint Olms and Taleria), as their large hitboxes may overlap your camera.

When you tab your target, your selected target will receive a white glow outline. When you hover your reticle over the small hitbox of that target, all of your targeted abilities will hit them, excluding environmental collisions. However, this precise targeting does not apply if you are not hovering over your tabbed-target's small hitbox; the usual large hitbox rules apply.

So to recap, how to properly target your tabbed target:

1. Tab your target.
2. Position your reticle directly over your tabbed target's small hitbox (within the white glow outline).

To be clear, how tab-targeting actually works is very obscure, so I do not blame anyone for calling it broken. I've explained this mechanic to many of my fellow raiders whenever they're having targeting trouble and the first responses are often disbelief and denial, and then amazement when it actually works.

Gabriel_H · October 27

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Is there enough info there to know that both of these are actually used for targeting in the game code? Since I don’t have insight into this it would seem like it is an assumption.

It's not an assumption, it shows that there are two targetting mechanisms at play. This is then further evidenced by observations such as provided in my opening post.

If there were not two at play then the functions GetGameCameraInteractableActionInfo() and GetUnitNameHighlightedByReticle() wouldn't give two different Unit Names.

Gabriel_H · October 27

mdjessup4906 wrote: »

. It's also worth noting if you have a mob tab-tagetted and turn away from them, and move so they are off the screen and no mob is under the reticle, and then use a skill you'll do a 180 and hit the tab-targetted mob.

This 1000% happens. Ive learned not to tab target twins on Voc hm lest I switch bosses only to end up stampeding backwards to where I was.

Tab target (ON screen) should take priority over everything otherwise what's ti even for. Love it when the game decides what adds my chain will actually pull based on vibes and not what ive actually highlighted so I can see the damn thing through all the flashbang.

The only times I use it are when there are two bosses near each other, and another tank is holding the second boss, but I only do so because the reticle/game camera targetting doesn't always seem to hit the boss I am hovered over. Tab-targetting improves the odds that I will taunt my intended target, BUT there does seem to be a really small chance I won't.

Varana · October 27

HatchetHaro wrote: »

2. Position your reticle directly over your tabbed target's small hitbox (within the white glow outline).

How does it work when that small hitbox is directly behind the large or small hitbox of a different enemy?

Gabriel_H · October 27

HatchetHaro wrote: »

1. Tab your target.
2. Position your reticle directly over your tabbed target's small hitbox (within the white glow outline).

Which would mean tab-targetting is redundant and it simply becomes target highlighting.

The problem is it is not consistent, and there are situatiuons such as I described about doing a 180 turn.

Varana wrote: »

How does it work when that small hitbox is directly behind the large or small hitbox of a different enemy?

Plus that ^^

Gabriel_H · October 27

Gabriel_H wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Is there enough info there to know that both of these are actually used for targeting in the game code? Since I don’t have insight into this it would seem like it is an assumption.

It's not an assumption, it shows that there are two targetting mechanisms at play. This is then further evidenced by observations such as provided in my opening post.

If there were not two at play then the functions GetGameCameraInteractableActionInfo() and GetUnitNameHighlightedByReticle() wouldn't give two different Unit Names.

If you'd like another example. See the two images below. The second is a very slight change in the angle - and I do mean slight.

HatchetHaro · October 27

Gabriel_H wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

1. Tab your target.
2. Position your reticle directly over your tabbed target's small hitbox (within the white glow outline).

Which would mean tab-targetting is redundant and it simply becomes target highlighting.

The problem is it is not consistent, and there are situatiuons such as I described about doing a 180 turn.

You're missing the point. Its purpose is so you can hit a tabbed target even when it's hiding behind a bunch of other NPCs, and I can guarantee you that it's quite consistent in that ability.

Varana wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

2. Position your reticle directly over your tabbed target's small hitbox (within the white glow outline).

How does it work when that small hitbox is directly behind the large or small hitbox of a different enemy?

It guarantees the hit on your tabbed target. It's especially useful for tanks when it comes to taunting and wrangling additional enemies behind their main tanking target. As long as your target is within range and isn't occluded by the environment and your reticle is directly over your target, you can hit them through crowds of enemies.

lillybit · October 27

mdjessup4906 wrote: »

It would be wonderful if reticle targeting could be the only thing you need, but with lag, desync, whatever i cant see that working so well.

That wouldn't work for controllers as it's also the camera and sometimes you need to look around, like watching for mechanics

Gabriel_H · October 27

HatchetHaro wrote: »

You're missing the point. Its purpose is so you can hit a tabbed target even when it's hiding behind a bunch of other NPCs, and I can guarantee you that it's quite consistent in that ability.

In that instance the mob isn't "hiding". You can have the reticle over a target in front of you, and the tab will turn you 180.

HatchetHaro wrote: »

It guarantees the hit on your tabbed target. It's especially useful for tanks when it comes to taunting and wrangling additional enemies behind their main tanking target. As long as your target is within range and isn't occluded by the environment and your reticle is directly over your target, you can hit them through crowds of enemies.

It does not. It is too inconsistent, and as I said wayyyyyy back it needs an overhaul.

Gabriel_H · October 27

lillybit wrote: »

mdjessup4906 wrote: »

It would be wonderful if reticle targeting could be the only thing you need, but with lag, desync, whatever i cant see that working so well.

That wouldn't work for controllers as it's also the camera and sometimes you need to look around, like watching for mechanics

That's the same on PC. You move the camera, the reticle stays centered.

HatchetHaro · October 27

Gabriel_H wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

You're missing the point. Its purpose is so you can hit a tabbed target even when it's hiding behind a bunch of other NPCs, and I can guarantee you that it's quite consistent in that ability.

In that instance the mob isn't "hiding". You can have the reticle over a target in front of you, and the tab will turn you 180.

HatchetHaro wrote: »

It guarantees the hit on your tabbed target. It's especially useful for tanks when it comes to taunting and wrangling additional enemies behind their main tanking target. As long as your target is within range and isn't occluded by the environment and your reticle is directly over your target, you can hit them through crowds of enemies.

It does not. It is too inconsistent, and as I said wayyyyyy back it needs an overhaul.

You're going to need to prove what you're talking about because there's no way in oblivion tab-targeting turns your camera 180 degrees.

Soarora · October 27

StihlReign wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

StihlReign wrote: »

Nice post, good points. Be nice if they just removed tab target and gave priority to the reticle game camera issue. They could probably make the camera transitions between those two look really seamless, raise the skill level and remove the auto-target problems from the game.

Tab target shouldn't be removed-- I use it all the time to taunt or pull enemies that are behind other enemies (especially very... large ones where it's impossible to see around them). It does need help, though. I've heard of people hitting things BEHIND them due to tab targeting. It'd also be nice to see more options around the tab target aura... "Triplets" in halls of fabrication is a very good example where the thin white line is impossible to see and yet extremely necessary.

They should fix targeting and remove autotargeting, especially in cases where players are cheating the environment and using the targeting to taunt or pull enemies that are behind other enemies (especially very... large ones where it's impossible to see around them). Players should move or reposition.

Autotargeting is broken, and enabling broken mechanics.

Removing tab targeting would make tanking a lot more annoying, we don't need more tanks quitting. There's nothing wrong with using tab target in this manner, it still requires skill to use (
[1] being able to cycle through targets fast enough, for example if you're holding a lot of enemies and need to keep taunt on each one or need to chain an add far away in a trash pack while they're already grouped.
[2] knowing where enemies are when you can't see them, for example in moongrave fane first boss I stand on the stairs. I do this so that DPS can flank the boss if they have the nightblade flanking passive and also to naturally grab aggro on 1 of the 3 groups of adds. I have to guess where the other adds are to tab target them through the boss to pull the rest in. Even if I wasn't on the stairs and went to the side, the same problem would exist for the other 2 trash packs. If I stood in the front then DPS can't flank.
)

Bosses can take up the majority of the screen. Even when flanking isn't a concern, cones often are. You can't just expect tanks to spin the boss around to open up their line of sight to grab adds, they'll kill people.

Additionally, enemies can be inside each other. Just the other day I got pinned in Fang Lair on the animal skeletons boss by the senche. Problem is, I was also tanking so the senche was directly under the bear. Another player was bashing, trying to hit the senche, but they didn't tab target so they just kept bashing the bear and I died.

Gabriel_H · October 28

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

You're missing the point. Its purpose is so you can hit a tabbed target even when it's hiding behind a bunch of other NPCs, and I can guarantee you that it's quite consistent in that ability.

In that instance the mob isn't "hiding". You can have the reticle over a target in front of you, and the tab will turn you 180.

HatchetHaro wrote: »

It guarantees the hit on your tabbed target. It's especially useful for tanks when it comes to taunting and wrangling additional enemies behind their main tanking target. As long as your target is within range and isn't occluded by the environment and your reticle is directly over your target, you can hit them through crowds of enemies.

It does not. It is too inconsistent, and as I said wayyyyyy back it needs an overhaul.

You're going to need to prove what you're talking about because there's no way in oblivion tab-targeting turns your camera 180 degrees.

Where did I say it turns the camera. It turns you.

katanagirl1 · October 28

Gabriel_H wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Is there enough info there to know that both of these are actually used for targeting in the game code? Since I don’t have insight into this it would seem like it is an assumption.

It's not an assumption, it shows that there are two targetting mechanisms at play. This is then further evidenced by observations such as provided in my opening post.

If there were not two at play then the functions GetGameCameraInteractableActionInfo() and GetUnitNameHighlightedByReticle() wouldn't give two different Unit Names.

It is an assumption based on observation in the game though, right? Just because there are two different variables in the code doesn’t mean the targeting is using both of them. The explanation by HatchetHero seems to match what I have noticed. I need to go back and reread all, this is a wonderful discussion of the topic. I am not being argumentative for the sake of doing so but to make sure we are clear and basing assumptions, if we have to make them, on all of the data and observations. I also have no experience with the variables that are within the information you guys use for add-ons on PC so I have no reference to compare.

Gabriel_H · October 28

Another example.
Two mobs.
Front mob partially obscures rear mob.
Rear mob is both under reticle and tab targetted when skill fired.
Both are within Charge skill range.

Charge skill hits front mob. As seen from the positioning.