Tales of Tribute balance

ESO_player123

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Rampeal wrote: »

Asdara wrote: »

Rahjin spammer asking for an insane Rahjin buff, regardless of the current meta? and to make the game longer?
Absolutely NO

But spamming power cards is fun? Raj takes skill to play. Anyone (most do) can pick Pelin or any of the other cards. Do you really find the game fun as a race to the end? Spamming power decks?

CoronHR wrote: »

i can't agree with any of these ideas. anything that makes the matches longer is a no-go for me. it's already painful enough for them to last as long as they do

Why are you playing? The whole point is to play the game. Is it just for the rewards or daily? If so why not play casual? If you play just to finish quickly that's fine, but some of us like to actually have a skillful challenge rather than spamming power cards to 40.

Rahjiin spam is genuinely the most toxic and unfun thing to play against in all of Tales of Tribute IMO. It's truly terrible. I'll definitely take a power spammer over it any day of the week. At least when those games are lopsided, it's over quickly.

100 % this.

JeroenB

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Rampeal wrote: »

Asdara wrote: »

Rahjin spammer asking for an insane Rahjin buff, regardless of the current meta? and to make the game longer?
Absolutely NO

But spamming power cards is fun? Raj takes skill to play. Anyone (most do) can pick Pelin or any of the other cards. Do you really find the game fun as a race to the end? Spamming power decks?

CoronHR wrote: »

i can't agree with any of these ideas. anything that makes the matches longer is a no-go for me. it's already painful enough for them to last as long as they do

Why are you playing? The whole point is to play the game. Is it just for the rewards or daily? If so why not play casual? If you play just to finish quickly that's fine, but some of us like to actually have a skillful challenge rather than spamming power cards to 40.

Rahjiin spam is genuinely the most toxic and unfun thing to play against in all of Tales of Tribute IMO. It's truly terrible. I'll definitely take a power spammer over it any day of the week. At least when those games are lopsided, it's over quickly.

I also agree completely with this sentiment. Even when I win in a game using Rajhin (when the other player selected that Patron), I'm just not having fun. I've started simply Conceding before play even starts if the other player selects Rajhin. (Luckily it's not as if I'll ever reach the upper reaches of the leaderboard, so such a technical 'loss' has no real downside for me.)

HatchetHaro

1. Power decks are actually quite well balanced for what they do, and are easily countered with good deck management that pushes into a strong midgame.

2. Absolutely not! What a ridiculous suggestion.

3. I've found patron costs to be mostly fine. I only have a gripe with Alessia's patron.

4. Good lord, no! Matches don't need to be longer than they need to be.

You think power spamming is overpowered? Good news! Both you and your opponent have access to the same cards. You can power spam. That's the whole point of Tales of Tribute.

You're just complaining because you're losing all the time from not actually learning how to play the available decks. You can stop spamming Rajhin once in a while to pick up a power card, you know?

JeroenB

HatchetHaro wrote: »

[...]

You think power spamming is overpowered? Good news! Both you and your opponent have access to the same cards. You can power spam. That's the whole point of Tales of Tribute.

You're just complaining because you're losing all the time from not actually learning how to play the available decks. You can stop spamming Rajhin once in a while to pick up a power card, you know?

Your post appears to be saying that instead of engaging with one play style many do not enjoy (Rajhin), players should just engage with another play style many do not enjoy (power spam) -- despite the prevalence of power spamming apparently being precisely the reason behind the swing to toxic Rajhin. That's just replacing one un-fun thing with another un-fun thing, for the type of players in question.

I disagree with the assumption that a lack of enjoyment in a thing is necessarily due to a lack of competence in said thing. People can just not particularly enjoy something, even if they are competent at it. I'm capable of winning sometimes with Rajhin, but do not enjoy the game when I do. I'm also capable of winning occasionally with a power deck. I do not particularly enjoy those games either (though they're nowhere near as bad as Rajhin games).

HatchetHaro

JeroenB wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

[...]

You think power spamming is overpowered? Good news! Both you and your opponent have access to the same cards. You can power spam. That's the whole point of Tales of Tribute.

You're just complaining because you're losing all the time from not actually learning how to play the available decks. You can stop spamming Rajhin once in a while to pick up a power card, you know?

Your post appears to be saying that instead of engaging with one play style many do not enjoy (Rajhin), players should just engage with another play style many do not enjoy (power spam) -- despite the prevalence of power spamming apparently being precisely the reason behind the swing to toxic Rajhin. That's just replacing one un-fun thing with another un-fun thing, for the type of players in question.

I disagree with the assumption that a lack of enjoyment in a thing is necessarily due to a lack of competence in said thing. People can just not particularly enjoy something, even if they are competent at it. I'm capable of winning sometimes with Rajhin, but do not enjoy the game when I do. I'm also capable of winning occasionally with a power deck. I do not particularly enjoy those games either (though they're nowhere near as bad as Rajhin games).

I have said nothing about enjoyment. But since you've assumed, I feel the need to mention that the point of any zero-sum game is victory, and if you're not playing to win, why are you even competing?

If you refuse to adapt to the hands you are dealt within each game of Tales of Tribute, you do not get to demand unreasonable balance changes for the sake of your own enjoyment at the expense of other players' enjoyment, because that's not balance.

JeroenB

HatchetHaro wrote: »

JeroenB wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

[...]

You think power spamming is overpowered? Good news! Both you and your opponent have access to the same cards. You can power spam. That's the whole point of Tales of Tribute.

You're just complaining because you're losing all the time from not actually learning how to play the available decks. You can stop spamming Rajhin once in a while to pick up a power card, you know?

Your post appears to be saying that instead of engaging with one play style many do not enjoy (Rajhin), players should just engage with another play style many do not enjoy (power spam) -- despite the prevalence of power spamming apparently being precisely the reason behind the swing to toxic Rajhin. That's just replacing one un-fun thing with another un-fun thing, for the type of players in question.

I disagree with the assumption that a lack of enjoyment in a thing is necessarily due to a lack of competence in said thing. People can just not particularly enjoy something, even if they are competent at it. I'm capable of winning sometimes with Rajhin, but do not enjoy the game when I do. I'm also capable of winning occasionally with a power deck. I do not particularly enjoy those games either (though they're nowhere near as bad as Rajhin games).

I have said nothing about enjoyment. But since you've assumed, I feel the need to mention that the point of any zero-sum game is victory, and if you're not playing to win, why are you even competing?

If you refuse to adapt to the hands you are dealt within each game of Tales of Tribute, you do not get to demand unreasonable balance changes for the sake of your own enjoyment at the expense of other players' enjoyment, because that's not balance; [snip]

To borrow your phrasing: If you're not playing a game for enjoyment, why are you even playing?

It's a game not a professional sport -- participating is not our job (presumably). I'm playing to have fun more than to win by any means necessary. Of course, winning is the objective, and is in and of itself enjoyable. If however I have to do something I don't enjoy in order to achieve that win, it defeats the underlying purpose of participating in a game the first place (enjoyment).

If you find enjoyment in competing to win as efficiently as possible using power spam, that is of course perfectly fine. People enjoy different things. What I object to is the statement in your previous post that other players should also play power spam if they wish to participate. 'People who do not enjoy power spam should either not participate, or should resign themselves to not having fun' seems an unavoidable consequence of that statement.

I assume that in your last paragraph "you" refers to OP, as I did not ask for any balance changes. I agree completely with what you say there, but it does seem in sentiment if not in detail contradictory with your previous post.

OP is pushing for strengthening Rajhin; your previous post stated that everybody should play power spam. To borrow your phrasing again, both are unreasonable demands for the sake of your respective enjoyment at the expense of other players' enjoyment. At least you included "once in a while", making it the much more reasonable extreme.

I suspect we probably agree where it matters, and I'm just stumbling over a rhetoric form in your previous post.
[edited to remove quote]

Virys1967

I absolutely hate card games.
No matter how cool a game looks, if it mentions "card" or "turn based" I skip over it.
It's why I pay almost $30 a month to play ESO to begin with. It had everything I look for in a game, until the introduction of this turn based browser game that I wouldn't have downloaded or wanted to play even if it was a game available for free on my phone.
You can never balance a game for someone that would rather not play a certain genre to begin with.
It's fine that ZOS put it in ESO for people that enjoy playing a game that isn't an MMORPG.
It's not fine that they make it mandatory to win a match against another player to complete certain achievements that have nothing to do with ToT.
I've leveled Zerith 100% without playing cards, but I can't get that pool furnishing until I win a match.
If it was to complete a Vet trial or anything else in this game, I could get guild or group support to get that achievement, but that's impossible with ToT.
Maybe playing a game, win or lose, for the achievement would have been acceptable, but the fact that you have to win a daily puts it behind a skill wall I admit I just don't have.

HatchetHaro

JeroenB wrote: »

OP is pushing for strengthening Rajhin; your previous post stated that everybody should play power spam. To borrow your phrasing again, both are unreasonable demands for the sake of your respective enjoyment at the expense of other players' enjoyment. At least you included "once in a while", making it the much more reasonable extreme.

I am going to cut you off here and make it very clear that nowhere am I advocating for everyone to power spam. I'm not sure where you got that from.

To clarify, if your opponent power spamming is such a big problem for you (referring to the OP or anyone relevant), you can and should actively grab those power cards if you can to 1. deny those cards from your opponent, and 2. catch up in prestige.

Adapting to what's given in the shop and what your opponent is building is a core part of playing Tales of Tribute. If you ooga booga hunker down on "I'm only ever buying X cards", you'll find yourself losing more often than not.

Again, zero sum game. If you want to play for fun, by all means, but if you don't actively try to play the game to the best of your ability while your opponent is doing so and winning, you don't get to complain and call for balance changes to compensate for your own inability to improve.

Altera0x

Virys1967 wrote: »

I've leveled Zerith 100% without playing cards, but I can't get that pool furnishing until I win a match.
If it was to complete a Vet trial or anything else in this game, I could get guild or group support to get that achievement, but that's impossible with ToT.

Here's how to complete ToT requirements with “group support”:
· Pick a friend or guildmate and get them in a voice chat or other way to communicate quickly.
· Choose “unranked casual” queue in ToT activity finder.
· Join the queue: if you don't see “your game is ready” pop-up this means the queue is empty and you should signal your mate to join — the game will connect you and your mate can help you to complete whatever you need (wins, patron turns, etc). If the queue isn't empty and the pop-up shows instantly, just press “no”, wait some time for the queue to clear and try again.