Has anyone played a balanced game of 8v8 deathmatch yet so far this weekend?

Weesacs

I think every game has finished with 1 team less than 100 points. The balancing in this game is soooooo out of whack.

Ive been on both sides - neither is fun tbh.

Nemesis7884

yea i had a nailbiter that was 490/490 before it ended, it was super tight but we lost...

but yeah usually youre either the team that stomps or get stomped...which sux on one hand, on the other hand this means the game goes by fast...having a real nailbiter giving it your all and then still loose is very exhausting...

Moonspawn

There are four main reasons 8v8 is so much harder to balance when compared to 4v4v4. Maybe you can help me solve them: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8353022#Comment_8353022

Asikoo

I don’t do PvP in this game because I just hate it. But anyway… how can you balance a game where PvE players like me only go into PvP when we have to? And I don’t even try to kill anyone, I just join PvP because I’m forced to. Then I run into others so they can kill me faster. The quicker they kill me, the quicker we move on. But tell me: how can you balance this?
You love PvP in ESO? Okay! I hate it. How can you have fun fighting against me? Where’s the balance in that?

Sootica

Last night I queued back to back for 70min in the 8v8, got 4 games in total, every single one ended up in spawn camping. Durations of the games completely depended on how willing the losing team is to jump down and surrender.

Game 1: 3:58 (my first dm weekend game, spawn camp after 1 min)
Game 2: 7:06 (lasted longer as the losing team was in spawn talking amongst themselves how bad the game is)
Game 3: 5:03 (lasted longer as a few from the winning team, myself included, stopped fighting)
Game 4: 2:44 (I was the only one on winning team who stopped fighting, not enough)

That’s when I stopped queuing for the night. Out of the 70 min trying to play, 51 min (73%) was in queue or waiting for games to start, out of the 19 min of actual play, at least half was spent not PvP-ing.

Chrisilis

Played a match a few minutes ago, our team had the other trapped in spawn about 60 seconds in. As a team we all went back to mid board to let em out (there was no discussion, just collective regrouping which was interesting all on its own) They jumped down and a two minute match became an 8 minute match, we still won but most people on that team ended up with a kill or two.

I think we all need quit trapping people in spawn, start giving teams a chance to get down. Im not a huge fan of shooting fish in a barrel nor am I a fan of being the fish.

Queue times? Some days they're terrible, 20-30 minutes like what even is that? Is it a glitch maybe? On a good day queue takes 5-10 minutes. Wish the matches lasted that long.

Balance? A thing of the past friends, a thing of the past.

Nemesis7884

Rgrd queue times, on eu pc, in the afternoon and evening they are usually very short, 5-10min... but in the morning no one is around.

ShadowPaladin

Weesacs wrote: »

I think every game has finished with 1 team less than 100 points. The balancing in this game is soooooo out of whack.

Ive been on both sides - neither is fun tbh.

I think no one needs to ask now - why the hell won't players, especially casuals, play pvp?! - anymore .

That is the primary reason!

Why should someone waste his time with getting steam-rolled over and over again by the same folks. Its a complete waste of the little time people do have to play a game.

MorallyBipolar

ShadowPaladin wrote: »

Weesacs wrote: »

I think every game has finished with 1 team less than 100 points. The balancing in this game is soooooo out of whack.

Ive been on both sides - neither is fun tbh.

I think no one needs to ask now - why the hell won't players, especially casuals, play pvp?! - anymore .

That is the primary reason!

Why should someone waste his time with getting steam-rolled over and over again by the same folks. Its a complete waste of the little time people do have to play a game.

Asikoo wrote: »

I don’t do PvP in this game because I just hate it. But anyway… how can you balance a game where PvE players like me only go into PvP when we have to? And I don’t even try to kill anyone, I just join PvP because I’m forced to. Then I run into others so they can kill me faster. The quicker they kill me, the quicker we move on. But tell me: how can you balance this?
You love PvP in ESO? Okay! I hate it. How can you have fun fighting against me? Where’s the balance in that?

Would it be productive for those of us who hate PvE to chime in in every PvE discussion to remind people of all the reasons we hate PvE?

I don't think it's possible for ZOS to balance two team BG's. It's one of the main reasons I've always been opposed to them. Three teams forces players to mix things up a bit and spreads out the action more.

katanagirl1

Asikoo wrote: »

I don’t do PvP in this game because I just hate it. But anyway… how can you balance a game where PvE players like me only go into PvP when we have to? And I don’t even try to kill anyone, I just join PvP because I’m forced to. Then I run into others so they can kill me faster. The quicker they kill me, the quicker we move on. But tell me: how can you balance this?
You love PvP in ESO? Okay! I hate it. How can you have fun fighting against me? Where’s the balance in that?

When I queued on a PvE toon before I had a PvP toon I did the best I could. You can stay with the group and benefit from heals and buffs. I know BGs can be really bad but at least give it a try before you give up.

Otherwise the rest of the team is handicapped and that is not fair to them.

Asikoo

katanagirl1 wrote: »

When I queued on a PvE toon before I had a PvP toon I did the best I could. You can stay with the group and benefit from heals and buffs. I know BGs can be really bad but at least give it a try before you give up.

Otherwise the rest of the team is handicapped and that is not fair to them.

LOL! No, I will not. I won't do anything to help because I don't like PvP. And yet, I'm still forced to go there for a bunch of reasons. I'll do whatever I can to support the enemy team.


"Otherwise the rest of the team is handicapped and that is not fair to them."
Oh... I'm so sad. And do you think it's fair that I'm forced to play content I absolutely hate?

MGRza

Weesacs wrote: »

I think every game has finished with 1 team less than 100 points. The balancing in this game is soooooo out of whack.

Ive been on both sides - neither is fun tbh.

There are quite a few Pvp achievements I would like to finish, this from someone who doesn't really do much PvP unless I have to, but BG is in such a weird place I can't get myself to queue for it, it's not worth it for me.

Orbital78

They were mostly one sided spawn camps that I joined. The AP was good anyways, and death matches go quickly. I was getting matched with pvp main streamers so there must just not be enough players to form a good pool to balance. I did stock back up on AP, but PVD is better.

hovsep56

the problem is completionist or casuals get lured into pvp even when they have no intention of taking the pvp seriously.
simply because they want the gear to complete their set log and since losing also gives you rewards they don't mind pretend pvping until they get what they want.

CoronHR

i hugely prefer 8x8 to 4x4, but it was so much more fun, imo, when it was 4x4x4.

i also don't think bg will ever be balanced. it's rare that you get a bg where all the players are at a similar level, and i think that's what it takes to be balanced

dutchusuk

Only 1 balanced game, the other games was spawn camps.

kotisovich

Tried 8vs8 several times. Usually 3-4 guys are good, so we just go to enemy respawn. Same happens with opposite team. And both sides kill noobs on respawn. Its just faster way to get points, both teams understand it and dont go long stall fight between each other. Idk whats happening on high MMR and have no desire to learn i 🐒

Erickson9610

Asikoo wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

When I queued on a PvE toon before I had a PvP toon I did the best I could. You can stay with the group and benefit from heals and buffs. I know BGs can be really bad but at least give it a try before you give up.

Otherwise the rest of the team is handicapped and that is not fair to them.

LOL! No, I will not. I won't do anything to help because I don't like PvP. And yet, I'm still forced to go there for a bunch of reasons. I'll do whatever I can to support the enemy team.


"Otherwise the rest of the team is handicapped and that is not fair to them."
Oh... I'm so sad. And do you think it's fair that I'm forced to play content I absolutely hate?

Yeah, it is pretty fair. Certain content has rewards unique to it. You can't get PvE content rewards in PvP content, and vice versa.

What's not fair is when you throw the game for your team. That's only adding to the problem of BGs being one-sided.


After all, no one is forcing you to do anything. You either complete content to get rewards, or you don't. You don't need those rewards.

NxJoeyD

No. I don’t know what the Devs were thinking with this.

Ever since U47 PvP matchmaking has been worse than garbage and, honestly, IMO subclassing has opened the door to WAY too much healing in PvP.

I know there have been suggestions on how to balance PvP and I’ve even contributed a few … but …. There’s two things the Devs can do to really start to level the field:

1) Healing: this has gotten beyond ridiculous. First, self healing is a joke. Yes, players should have access to a self heal to help get out of a tight situation, however, whomever came to work and decided anyone in PvP should be able to heal to near full on a single burst is pretty bonkers.

With subclassing we’ve got build combinations that now avoid the “real” concept of diminishing returns by pairing abilities that were never designed to be utilized together, limiting counterplay, yes, I know Battle Spirit halves healing but relative to damage is still heavily imbalanced; especially when paired with the sky high mitigation potential out there.

IMO healing should be a small to moderate supplement to a player, again, to strategically use in a pinch but not as an all out crutch to persistently bypass damage.

2) Block Cost Reduction: This is another item I’m suggesting specifically due to subclassing. I’m all for a flat rate based cost for block, BUT, being able to reduce that cost down to dollar store rates is excessive now. Even though the block cost ticks per second now, players are still able to reduce their block cost per second down to values that are in line with their stamina regen, effectively enabling them to near perma block; but also while still having slot space to deal high damage.

I’d say block cost reduction should be capped to no more than 60%. We’ve got a hard cap on resistances for a reason and now with subclassing this makes sense. It’ll being block cost down aggressively but still leave it at a value which requires players to strategically use block rather than just as a catch all crutch.

We’ve always had high damage potential across the classes and it’s no surprise that we’re seeing players race to the NB & Templar skill lines because they’ve got some of the most advantageous abilities in the game. Pair that with broken self heals and broken block cost and you’ve got yourself a bad ol time.

We’re not going to see balanced matches, regardless of what they do with MRR, so long as these two aspects permeate PvP.

MincMincMinc

NxJoeyD wrote: »

No. I don’t know what the Devs were thinking with this.

Ever since U47 PvP matchmaking has been worse than garbage and, honestly, IMO subclassing has opened the door to WAY too much healing in PvP.

I know there have been suggestions on how to balance PvP and I’ve even contributed a few … but …. There’s two things the Devs can do to really start to level the field:

1) Healing: this has gotten beyond ridiculous. First, self healing is a joke. Yes, players should have access to a self heal to help get out of a tight situation, however, whomever came to work and decided anyone in PvP should be able to heal to near full on a single burst is pretty bonkers.

With subclassing we’ve got build combinations that now avoid the “real” concept of diminishing returns by pairing abilities that were never designed to be utilized together, limiting counterplay, yes, I know Battle Spirit halves healing but relative to damage is still heavily imbalanced; especially when paired with the sky high mitigation potential out there.

IMO healing should be a small to moderate supplement to a player, again, to strategically use in a pinch but not as an all out crutch to persistently bypass damage.

2) Block Cost Reduction: This is another item I’m suggesting specifically due to subclassing. I’m all for a flat rate based cost for block, BUT, being able to reduce that cost down to dollar store rates is excessive now. Even though the block cost ticks per second now, players are still able to reduce their block cost per second down to values that are in line with their stamina regen, effectively enabling them to near perma block; but also while still having slot space to deal high damage.

I’d say block cost reduction should be capped to no more than 60%. We’ve got a hard cap on resistances for a reason and now with subclassing this makes sense. It’ll being block cost down aggressively but still leave it at a value which requires players to strategically use block rather than just as a catch all crutch.

We’ve always had high damage potential across the classes and it’s no surprise that we’re seeing players race to the NB & Templar skill lines because they’ve got some of the most advantageous abilities in the game. Pair that with broken self heals and broken block cost and you’ve got yourself a bad ol time.

We’re not going to see balanced matches, regardless of what they do with MRR, so long as these two aspects permeate PvP.

Well to start the battlespirit heal cut was really to just reign in the TTK window and Heal windows to be relatively similar. The big issue right now is that healing soul is too strong tooltip wise. It also gives the strongest healing buff on top of that which is major vitality. Then a step further it also does one of the strongest effects in the game which is on par with ultimates being a massive aoe charm effect that goes through counterplay. Go do a duel with and without healing soul and then try to say healing is broken. There will be a clear difference in combat.

For the block cost just remember that block CAN charge every 0.25s.....before it used to be able to charge every 0.125s so you used to be able to burn down permablock players easier. To top it off more dots and aoes used to hit block and trigger the cost so solo players could burn down permablock builds easier. Granted I am talking about changes made in the early 2014 or 2015 era as best as I can remember a decade ago. Also you cant regen while blocking and if you ever actually used a pvp permablock build for 1vX you simply cannot drop block for any millisecond without risking dying. At best the only way to get regen is to do a dual resource block build where you block with ice staff mag cost and then swap to s&b for the stam cost to regen mag, rinse and repeat.

Just being honest here, but block builds are hardly an issue. Now a days everyone has a stun that goes through block. Some builds have up to 3 or 4 stuns that go through counterplay mechanics. Considering there is no counter to crit damage it really doesn't matter how tanky you build. All it takes is to stun a block player and crit them in that gcd to kill them.

xylena_lazarow

MincMincMinc wrote: »

All it takes is to stun a block player and crit them in that gcd to kill them.

Turtle/burst is the worst of both worlds. Long tank meta stalemates of holding block and resetting the fight, over in 2 gcds of RNG crits. More RNG reliant than any proc meta I can recall, it's a weighted coin flip every unblocked burst.

NxJoeyD

MincMincMinc wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

No. I don’t know what the Devs were thinking with this.

Ever since U47 PvP matchmaking has been worse than garbage and, honestly, IMO subclassing has opened the door to WAY too much healing in PvP.

I know there have been suggestions on how to balance PvP and I’ve even contributed a few … but …. There’s two things the Devs can do to really start to level the field:

1) Healing: this has gotten beyond ridiculous. First, self healing is a joke. Yes, players should have access to a self heal to help get out of a tight situation, however, whomever came to work and decided anyone in PvP should be able to heal to near full on a single burst is pretty bonkers.

With subclassing we’ve got build combinations that now avoid the “real” concept of diminishing returns by pairing abilities that were never designed to be utilized together, limiting counterplay, yes, I know Battle Spirit halves healing but relative to damage is still heavily imbalanced; especially when paired with the sky high mitigation potential out there.

IMO healing should be a small to moderate supplement to a player, again, to strategically use in a pinch but not as an all out crutch to persistently bypass damage.

2) Block Cost Reduction: This is another item I’m suggesting specifically due to subclassing. I’m all for a flat rate based cost for block, BUT, being able to reduce that cost down to dollar store rates is excessive now. Even though the block cost ticks per second now, players are still able to reduce their block cost per second down to values that are in line with their stamina regen, effectively enabling them to near perma block; but also while still having slot space to deal high damage.

I’d say block cost reduction should be capped to no more than 60%. We’ve got a hard cap on resistances for a reason and now with subclassing this makes sense. It’ll being block cost down aggressively but still leave it at a value which requires players to strategically use block rather than just as a catch all crutch.

We’ve always had high damage potential across the classes and it’s no surprise that we’re seeing players race to the NB & Templar skill lines because they’ve got some of the most advantageous abilities in the game. Pair that with broken self heals and broken block cost and you’ve got yourself a bad ol time.

We’re not going to see balanced matches, regardless of what they do with MRR, so long as these two aspects permeate PvP.

Well to start the battlespirit heal cut was really to just reign in the TTK window and Heal windows to be relatively similar. The big issue right now is that healing soul is too strong tooltip wise. It also gives the strongest healing buff on top of that which is major vitality. Then a step further it also does one of the strongest effects in the game which is on par with ultimates being a massive aoe charm effect that goes through counterplay. Go do a duel with and without healing soul and then try to say healing is broken. There will be a clear difference in combat.

For the block cost just remember that block CAN charge every 0.25s.....before it used to be able to charge every 0.125s so you used to be able to burn down permablock players easier. To top it off more dots and aoes used to hit block and trigger the cost so solo players could burn down permablock builds easier. Granted I am talking about changes made in the early 2014 or 2015 era as best as I can remember a decade ago. Also you cant regen while blocking and if you ever actually used a pvp permablock build for 1vX you simply cannot drop block for any millisecond without risking dying. At best the only way to get regen is to do a dual resource block build where you block with ice staff mag cost and then swap to s&b for the stam cost to regen mag, rinse and repeat.

Just being honest here, but block builds are hardly an issue. Now a days everyone has a stun that goes through block. Some builds have up to 3 or 4 stuns that go through counterplay mechanics. Considering there is no counter to crit damage it really doesn't matter how tanky you build. All it takes is to stun a block player and crit them in that gcd to kill them.

Healing Soul actually lags behind Usfelds in terms of tool tip; my guess is because the wind of charge of Usfelds makes it less of an immediate use case? I’m only guessing here.

I use Usfelds as a self heal and its burst in PvP does NOT provide a heal to full or even near full in PvP, neither does Soul Burst; not on their own anyway. The issue is the ability to stack healing attributes in ways that, again, reduce counterplay.

The way most healing abilities were structured in their “risk versus reward” prospect were done in the vacuum of their respective class. With U47 we now have players able to pair attributes that are considered more reward than risk; especially when paired with passive healing & class buffs.

I do see some players using Usfelds; way more than soul burst; and I can see why, the higher tooltip plus the Mages passives make it slightly better on paper but tricker to use for some builds, then again, with the majority of players in PvP slotting crazy quick animate abilities that’s probably less of a factor.

The changes to block cost were done 7 or 8 years ago and back then, perhaps it was more effective. Since then we’ve had so many elements added to the game that’s just not the case. Basically every forum now related to PvP issues sees people all saying the same thing, the counter play is block. The block mechanic is far too overused in PvP and why not. You can substantially reduce the cost and pair it with other forms of aggressive mitigation that avoids the majority of the diminishing returns calculations depending on the mitigation category.

People may not be able to “perma” block per se but they can block upwards of 80k or 90k + damage for a stam cost that can be made to be ridiculously low. So even though it may not be a “perma” block, the amount of damage that’s blockable versus the attainable low cost to block it don’t align anymore; hence why a hard cap would make sense.

And again, this would all only be when Battle Spirit is active.

As for stuns and CC; yes, crowd control is everywhere now that players have access to more sources but there are counter plays to CC. Immobility pots for one. Further not all Crowd Control abilities are created equal. Only a couple are in unblockable and one of those (Streak) has the poorest combo/follow up potential out of all of them. Temps Javelin fairs far better and we see that in play ALOT now, and for that very reason but it alone simply isn’t enough to make up for the lack of broad counterplay. Unless you’re stacking CC (which isn’t realistic for all or even most builds) then you’re not going to be disruptive enough.

And again, it’s not necessarily the sitting behind a block wall that’s the issue; it’s the persistent access to block because the cost doesn’t match up with the crazy amounts of damage that are being mitigated.

There’s too many attributes that subclassing has enabled players to utilize; only further constricting the metas into an even smaller scope.

Just opening the floodgates with subclassing didn’t level the field. This is because not all skills are balanced; even with similar tool tips. One has to consider how those abilities execute as well as how they animate. All of those are factors in gameplay and now; builds that truly shouldn’t have access to certain attributes do and it’s reducing the counterplay.

JustLovely

I've never participated in a two team BG that was anything other than a totally lopsided blowout.