More on the Microsoft lay offs, it's grim.

Elsonso

Dock01 wrote: »

Einar_Hrafnarsson wrote: »

The signs of decline have been obvious for a while. It is sad but things are out of Players control. I don't think ESO will be online for to much longer. Ill give it 2-4 Years before end of Service.

This is freaking me out I can't decide whether or not to spend anything in this game anymore, the scariest signs will be if they shut the forum down

Even if ESO is profitable, XBox may still step in and abruptly end things. No one has any way of knowing.

Desiato

Elsonso wrote: »

Dock01 wrote: »

Einar_Hrafnarsson wrote: »

The signs of decline have been obvious for a while. It is sad but things are out of Players control. I don't think ESO will be online for to much longer. Ill give it 2-4 Years before end of Service.

This is freaking me out I can't decide whether or not to spend anything in this game anymore, the scariest signs will be if they shut the forum down

Even if ESO is profitable, XBox may still step in and abruptly end things. No one has any way of knowing.

That makes no sense.

In the bigger picture, everything in this universe is fleeting, especially our incredibly short lives. Enjoy it while you can, don't stress about things you can't control.

Zodiarkslayer

A point that came up in another thread is actually quite good.
Has anyone here actually connected the recent layoffs and the ever declining quality of chapter releases over the last couple of years?

I mean it's a good point. The reduction in quality of artwork (almost everything is being reused, rather than created), storytelling (reused heros, antagonists and most of all the streamlined/copy-pasted characters) and the increasing problems with performance over the last three to four years is beyond question.
Balancing the creation of the new game against sustaining quality for the old one would have been top management responsibility.
Maybe Microsoft execs simply assessed the previous balance to be off and stepped in to correct it.

I am not happy about it, but I have to admit: The longer I think about it, the more it makes sense to me.

I am looking forward to the first public letter by the new studio head @ZOS_JoBurba . Maybe that will clear things up.

MJallday

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

A point that came up in another thread is actually quite good.
Has anyone here actually connected the recent layoffs and the ever declining quality of chapter releases over the last couple of years?

I mean it's a good point. The reduction in quality of artwork (almost everything is being reused, rather than created), storytelling (reused heros, antagonists and most of all the streamlined/copy-pasted characters) and the increasing problems with performance over the last three to four years is beyond question.
Balancing the creation of the new game against sustaining quality for the old one would have been top management responsibility.
Maybe Microsoft execs simply assessed the previous balance to be off and stepped in to correct it.

I am not happy about it, but I have to admit: The longer I think about it, the more it makes sense to me.

I am looking forward to the first public letter by the new studio head @ZOS_JoBurba . Maybe that will clear things up.

literally everyone's already made that connection (whether true or not)

the development team have been lost to other projects over time (including the recent big project) - plus (IMO) the changes internally have meant a decline in provision, both service, technically and in quality

On a general note, my commiserations to any staff that may be affected by job loss. the only thing i would say is "theres always something else out there.

minnowfaun

I have it on good authority that ESO is safe... for now. I'm told Microsoft has an interest in hardware.

Imo these big companies are interested in only one thing. Money. Layoffs done like this are normal in the US.

[snip]
[edited for conspiracy theory/misinformation]

ghastley

minnowfaun wrote: »

Imo these big companies are interested in only one thing. Money.

This is a legal requirement. A public company is required to put its shareholders first. Dodge vs Ford 1919. Ford paid its workers more and produced better cars for its customers, but the competition sued to prevent that.

Eldartar

I was worried the day I learned Microsoft had taken over.
Then came the news that Matt "The Creator/Driving force" behind the games sudden departure.
and the latest thing, Microsoft laying of so many loyal, creative and hard working people.

I am worried about the games future, I have been playing this game since BETA and this is the most worrying time for me.

My confidence in Microsoft has been shaken to its core, so much so I have cancelled my subscription.

I see dwindling numbers playing this beautiful game (my eyes don't lie), I have seen content decline over the past 2, 3, even 4 years. This years 'Content Pass' has to be the weakest yet..

I am really worried about the future of the game I have spent so many hundreds of hours playing, I have seen guilds rise and then vanish. Made many many friends from across the world. Have lost some friends I have made here to Illness and I miss them still. When I started in Beta, I was I was 53 years old, I am now 65.

I just have this nagging feeling that this is the beginning of the end.

Vonnegut2506

Eldartar wrote: »

I was worried the day I learned Microsoft had taken over.
Then came the news that Matt "The Creator/Driving force" behind the games sudden departure.
and the latest thing, Microsoft laying of so many loyal, creative and hard working people.

I am worried about the games future, I have been playing this game since BETA and this is the most worrying time for me.

My confidence in Microsoft has been shaken to its core, so much so I have cancelled my subscription.

I see dwindling numbers playing this beautiful game (my eyes don't lie), I have seen content decline over the past 2, 3, even 4 years. This years 'Content Pass' has to be the weakest yet..

I am really worried about the future of the game I have spent so many hundreds of hours playing, I have seen guilds rise and then vanish. Made many many friends from across the world. Have lost some friends I have made here to Illness and I miss them still. When I started in Beta, I was I was 53 years old, I am now 65.

I just have this nagging feeling that this is the beginning of the end.

The second day of any MMO is the "beginning of the end." All of them eventually shut down or go into maintenance mode. Enjoy the game for as long as you feel it is worth playing. Once you no longer feel it is worth it, find something else to do. I know EQ is still going strong, but I can't imagine still playing it today even though I put in so many hours when it came out.

Vaqual

Vonnegut2506 wrote: »

Eldartar wrote: »

I was worried the day I learned Microsoft had taken over.
Then came the news that Matt "The Creator/Driving force" behind the games sudden departure.
and the latest thing, Microsoft laying of so many loyal, creative and hard working people.

I am worried about the games future, I have been playing this game since BETA and this is the most worrying time for me.

My confidence in Microsoft has been shaken to its core, so much so I have cancelled my subscription.

I see dwindling numbers playing this beautiful game (my eyes don't lie), I have seen content decline over the past 2, 3, even 4 years. This years 'Content Pass' has to be the weakest yet..

I am really worried about the future of the game I have spent so many hundreds of hours playing, I have seen guilds rise and then vanish. Made many many friends from across the world. Have lost some friends I have made here to Illness and I miss them still. When I started in Beta, I was I was 53 years old, I am now 65.

I just have this nagging feeling that this is the beginning of the end.

The second day of any MMO is the "beginning of the end." All of them eventually shut down or go into maintenance mode. Enjoy the game for as long as you feel it is worth playing. Once you no longer feel it is worth it, find something else to do. I know EQ is still going strong, but I can't imagine still playing it today even though I put in so many hours when it came out.

While I somewhat agree with the sentiment, we actually can't even say that for sure. There are several MMOs that have defied maintenance mode or shutdown and even some that returned from there. Our preferences as species do not change so drastically and fast that something must necessarily come out of fashion within a certain timeframe. Nothing says that MMOs can't become something like modern traditions. Their creation and maintenance is not so entirely different from other forms of art or expression and we may well be at a point in time were we have only a very naive understanding of what we will actually want to preserve for the future. The speed of technical advancement plays a huge role in this, but a certain degree of redundancy between older and newer generation video games is clearly noticeable. It will remain to be seen where and when we will reach some form of relative plateau, but we might be closer than we know.
The idea of something like a 50 year old MMO with constant high effort development is certainly intriguing - and not completely unrealistic, as tabletops have proven in recent years.

Mathius_Mordred

Eldartar wrote: »

I was worried the day I learned Microsoft had taken over.
Then came the news that Matt "The Creator/Driving force" behind the games sudden departure.
and the latest thing, Microsoft laying of so many loyal, creative and hard working people.

I am worried about the games future, I have been playing this game since BETA and this is the most worrying time for me.

My confidence in Microsoft has been shaken to its core, so much so I have cancelled my subscription.

I see dwindling numbers playing this beautiful game (my eyes don't lie), I have seen content decline over the past 2, 3, even 4 years. This years 'Content Pass' has to be the weakest yet..

I am really worried about the future of the game I have spent so many hundreds of hours playing, I have seen guilds rise and then vanish. Made many many friends from across the world. Have lost some friends I have made here to Illness and I miss them still. When I started in Beta, I was I was 53 years old, I am now 65.

I just have this nagging feeling that this is the beginning of the end.

If it is the beginning of the end, it will be a slow process, and much can happen between now and then. I think we have to let the dust settle and see what happens for next year and 2027. Most of the content for next year has probably already been completed, so it's going to be in 2027 that the impact of these cuts is most likely felt the most. In any case, I'd say we have lots of time left yet with the game.

My biggest concern actually is spending thousands on the game and a sub and then getting permabanned for no apparent reason, it seems to be happening more and more. So I take the approach now that I don't spend any more than I can afford to throw down the toilet when any of us at any time can suddenly feel the ban hammer, be it a temporary ban or permanent. There are far too many examples of this happening for us to feel comfortable that it's a very rare occurrence, and as no doubt some support staff have lost their jobs or been reallocated, the people who will run appeals, ie their safety team, must be stretched to the limit.

ElderSmitter

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

As one tech CEO put it, to paraphrase, AI is always available, it never needs to eat or sleep, and it doesn't need benefits.

And that's frankly an alarming mindset for all people because the scale of job loss that this can create if left unregulated and unchecked is unprecedented.

As a 30-year full-stack developer who uses "AI" every day, I don't know what these people are smoking. I have to fight with it to get it to do even simple things most of the time, and half the time it looks right, it's still wrong in subtle ways. I'm good at what I do because I understand the problem domain intimately, and can ask the right questions. Coding the answer is a relatively small part of the solving the problem. And yet I'm worried that I, too, will be made redundant because some middle manager thinks I am replaceable with a Copilot subscription.

The good news is you have 30 years in the business which means you are closer to retirement than most struggling with the idea that all the AI Hype the media pushed is only doing the negative and causing real people to be replaced by AI... Sad that the world is becoming so reliant on technology and forcing it down everyone's throat. I for one am glade a am not in an AI type of work and I encourage my kids to think about what careers they choose for this very reason. I hope you survive until retirement you seem like a very smart person!

Regards

Elder

Arizona_Steve

Also a 30+ year software engineer. I use AI for code completion and other simple tasks but I will not under any circumstances "vibe code". I don't want to end up the software engineering equivalent of the people that become too reliant on their GPS and drive their car into a lake.

Sluggy

spartaxoxo wrote: »

As one tech CEO put it, to paraphrase, AI is always available, it never needs to eat or sleep, and it doesn't need benefits.

And that's frankly an alarming mindset for all people because the scale of job loss that this can create if left unregulated and unchecked is unprecedented.

While most places will push it as a 'productivity tool' I think that most are also knowledgeable enough to know it doesn't actually replace workers. Any CEO dumb enough to completely replace their workforce with AI will get exactly what they deserve. But for the most part that isn't what's driving the layoffs in tech. It might be cited as an excuse here or there but it's probably to cover up the fact that they simply overhired. Bigger companies were doing it because it's the best way to keep startups from getting a foothold. And smaller companies did it because banks underwriting their IPO were pushing them hard to spend spend spend because they get a percentage of the total valuation when it goes live. The market has been saturated beyond reason for years now.

spartaxoxo

Some leaders acknowledge the human cost of such layoffs. Microsoft announced this month plans to cut another 9,000 workers, bringing its job cuts to 15,000 in the past two months. In a memo to staff on Thursday, Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella said the layoffs had weighed on him as the company reorients its business to AI.
“This is the enigma of success in an industry that has no franchise value,” Nadella wrote. “Progress isn’t linear. It’s dynamic, sometimes dissonant, and always demanding.”

From an article about AI-focused staff reductions in tech from the Wall Street Journal. Thought it was relevant to this discussion.


From the blog post the Wall Street Journal cites and links to.

What does achieving our mission look like and feel like for us as a company? When Microsoft is succeeding, the world around us must succeed too. This is why each of us chose to be here, and as a company it’s how we earn our social permission to operate. When Bill founded Microsoft, he envisioned not just a software company, but a software factory, unconstrained by any single product or category. That idea has guided us for decades. But today, it’s no longer enough.
We must reimagine our mission for a new era. What does empowerment look like in the era of AI? It’s not just about building tools for specific roles or tasks. It’s about building tools that empower everyone to create their own tools. That’s the shift we are driving—from a software factory to an intelligence engine empowering every person and organization to build whatever they need to achieve.

Article is called "CEOs Are Shrinking Their Workforces—and They Couldn’t Be Prouder" if you want to read the full context and blog post from Microsoft.

Elowen_Starveil

ElderSmitter wrote: »

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

As one tech CEO put it, to paraphrase, AI is always available, it never needs to eat or sleep, and it doesn't need benefits.

And that's frankly an alarming mindset for all people because the scale of job loss that this can create if left unregulated and unchecked is unprecedented.

As a 30-year full-stack developer who uses "AI" every day, I don't know what these people are smoking. I have to fight with it to get it to do even simple things most of the time, and half the time it looks right, it's still wrong in subtle ways. I'm good at what I do because I understand the problem domain intimately, and can ask the right questions. Coding the answer is a relatively small part of the solving the problem. And yet I'm worried that I, too, will be made redundant because some middle manager thinks I am replaceable with a Copilot subscription.

The good news is you have 30 years in the business which means you are closer to retirement than most struggling with the idea that all the AI Hype the media pushed is only doing the negative and causing real people to be replaced by AI... Sad that the world is becoming so reliant on technology and forcing it down everyone's throat. I for one am glade a am not in an AI type of work and I encourage my kids to think about what careers they choose for this very reason. I hope you survive until retirement you seem like a very smart person!

Regards

Elder

The bad news is that I will never be able to retire. If it even survives, Social Security is going to *have* to be saddled with "austerity measures" that lower the payments and increase the age requirements. I will have paid full fare my entire working life, and they'll start shafting us almost exactly when I turn 65. I have much more to say about where we're obviously headed, but I'm digressing, severely. I'm glad you're not in the path of the coming AI storm, and thanks for the compliment.

Elowen_Starveil

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Some leaders acknowledge the human cost of such layoffs. Microsoft announced this month plans to cut another 9,000 workers, bringing its job cuts to 15,000 in the past two months. In a memo to staff on Thursday, Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella said the layoffs had weighed on him as the company reorients its business to AI.
“This is the enigma of success in an industry that has no franchise value,” Nadella wrote. “Progress isn’t linear. It’s dynamic, sometimes dissonant, and always demanding.”

From an article about AI-focused staff reductions in tech from the Wall Street Journal. Thought it was relevant to this discussion.


From the blog post the Wall Street Journal cites and links to.

What does achieving our mission look like and feel like for us as a company? When Microsoft is succeeding, the world around us must succeed too. This is why each of us chose to be here, and as a company it’s how we earn our social permission to operate. When Bill founded Microsoft, he envisioned not just a software company, but a software factory, unconstrained by any single product or category. That idea has guided us for decades. But today, it’s no longer enough.
We must reimagine our mission for a new era. What does empowerment look like in the era of AI? It’s not just about building tools for specific roles or tasks. It’s about building tools that empower everyone to create their own tools. That’s the shift we are driving—from a software factory to an intelligence engine empowering every person and organization to build whatever they need to achieve.

Article is called "CEOs Are Shrinking Their Workforces—and They Couldn’t Be Prouder" if you want to read the full context and blog post from Microsoft.

Keep in mind that while Microsoft has laid off 15,000 people in the past few months, they've requested another 14,000 H1-B visas from the government. They made $186 BILLION DOLLARS PROFIT last year, and yet they're still farming out their work to what are effectively indentured servants under the plan. I work at the ~30th largest H1-B visa holder, with hundreds of H1-B's doing jobs that could be done by local people with associate degrees and high school diplomas. No hate for the immigrants bettering their circumstances on the program, but it's being abused illegally by our largest corporations, hurts local communities, and damages the long term prospects of our country when we don't invest in our own citizens at this level.

Dock01

Arizona_Steve wrote: »

Also a 30+ year software engineer. I use AI for code completion and other simple tasks but I will not under any circumstances "vibe code". I don't want to end up the software engineering equivalent of the people that become too reliant on their GPS and drive their car into a lake.

THIS exactly This !! People fail to realize that AI cannot replace the core fundamentals of a lot of stuff, that would be dangerous not because they're good at it XD but because it can literally break it , like ill give an example, now this isnt proven but a lot of people suspected nvidia uses AI to completely make their drivers update which causes alot of heart ache for rtx5000 plus folks, even 4050- 4090, it had so many problems after problems its unbelivable, it nearly broke alot of pc. I was one of them; fortunately, mine didn't break. However, I never knew I needed to roll back using DDU in Safe Mode before reinstalling the previous stable driver. It was so frustrating; I recently bought it for thousands, and I had to do this. And its definitely AI , Nvidia has been obsessed with them, it wouldn't be a surprise if they did use AI secretly. I dont mind using AI as an ASSISTANT, but replacing the creator ? nope. That GPS analogy is a great example why.

Desiato

Of course an advance in productivity will result in a reduced workforce for the fields affected.

Almost everything one buys in a grocery store was packed by machines that replaced humans. This literally applies to every field. These evil personal computers we use put countless people out of work!

And we all benefit from the improved efficiency at the end of the day because it reduces costs.


Will someone PLEASE think about the telephone operators?!

This is the cost of progress. Adapt or die. Life is competitive.

Markytous

Desiato wrote: »

Of course an advance in productivity will result in a reduced workforce for the fields affected.

Almost everything one buys in a grocery store was packed by machines that replaced humans. This literally applies to every field. These evil personal computers we use put countless people out of work!

And we all benefit from the improved efficiency at the end of the day because it reduces costs.


Will someone PLEASE think about the telephone operators?!

This is the cost of progress. Adapt or die. Life is competitive.

Guess I'll adapt by preparing myself for ESO's continued decline and my eventual exit, then. Been a good run, eh gents?