Future of Battlegrounds

Moonspawn · August 7

NxJoeyD wrote: »

When we look at the landscape of BG there’s only certain elements that are being over-used on a broad scale: CC, certain healing stacks, and a select few gear sets. It’s not all of them but we’ve all been playing long enough, we know which factors of BG are simply cracked and leaned on, it’s a monitory of elements but none the less it erodes the gameplay factor of the game mode. And if it weren’t for the daily XP rewards I think many players would just write it off but is that really what the Devs want?

Three-teams BGs rewards: Daily XP.
Two-teams BGs rewards: Daily XP, endeavors, golden pursuits, battlemaster tokens and obscene amounts of transmutation crystals.

NxJoeyD · August 7

Moonspawn wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

When we look at the landscape of BG there’s only certain elements that are being over-used on a broad scale: CC, certain healing stacks, and a select few gear sets. It’s not all of them but we’ve all been playing long enough, we know which factors of BG are simply cracked and leaned on, it’s a monitory of elements but none the less it erodes the gameplay factor of the game mode. And if it weren’t for the daily XP rewards I think many players would just write it off but is that really what the Devs want?

Three-teams BGs rewards: Daily XP.
Two-teams BGs rewards: Daily XP, endeavors, golden pursuits, battlemaster tokens and obscene amounts of transmutation crystals.

Oh yeah, I’m including all that in the Daily XP factor, they Devs put WAY too much resource compensation on poor quality BG’s that really could be better served someplace else until the game mode is in a better state.

Side note, can we finally get the Devs to take into account ability animations when scaling damage or durations? Yes, animation cancelling is a “thing” … but … not all animations in the game can be cancelled and some animations have a unnecessarily longer animation than others; making them less competitive in PvP which is a really big deal and a piece of what’s contributing to players leaning on the same skills over and over in PvP. At one point these animations were probably fine. But with all of the changes & updates over the years and the current state of the servers some of them really do need an adjustments. We’ve got abilities that although they’re supposed to be “instant” they feel heavy and clumsy to respond and by the time the game goes to carry out the animation (non-cancelable ones) it’s way too long of a duration. It adds to the clunky feel of combat in many scenarios. I don’t expect we can redesign the game engine, but, the Devs could adjust the attributes of many abilities when in real world gameplay they don’t have the potential to land as often due to the overall mechanics, to give them a better use case.

Side side note, another suggestion: reduce melee range to 5m. That should be MORE than enough when we account for how the mechanics of most melee attacks are carried out. Those attacks don’t require accuracy or any sort of refinement to use; most of them are, essentially, spin to wins; whereby a character can be looking “off to the side” so to speak but be within 7m and they land a high damage attack.

With the current state of BG’s simply “being in proximity” of your target isn’t enough of a risk factor in the aspect of risk vs reward. Either reduce the melee range or reduce the damage per strike if we’re going to make it this easy to land high damage without accuracy. I’m doing this all day long on my NB and we’re all seeing high take rates of NB & Dual Wield abilities and it’s no wonder why. … and to put this into a bit of perspective, 7m is just shy of 23 feet! That’s a pretty long range for melee. Given that these abilities are non-discretionary AoE the idea is that they should be significantly less range.

ercknn · August 8

Just make random bg queue daily the 8v8
Competitive should go back to 4v4v4

Rewards for daily should be AP and XP
Rewards of daily should be ranked on how well you do, not if your team gets 1st or not.

4v4 is the worst game mode and only should be served up on special weekend events to mix things up.

Just my 2 cents

Moonspawn · August 8

ercknn wrote: »

4v4 is the worst game mode and only should be served up on special weekend events to mix things up.

4v4 makes a certain amount of sense for Premade vs Premade, at least in theory. In reality what happened was the very few groups that existed mostly disbanded shortly after the removal of three-teams BGs (PC NA).

Haki_7 · August 8

Moonspawn wrote: »

@Avran_Sylt This is what I meant when I said that the most extreme form of anti-gaming imaginable is a thousand times easier now:

Where was this?

Moonspawn · August 9

Haki_7 wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

@Avran_Sylt This is what I meant when I said that the most extreme form of anti-gaming imaginable is a thousand times easier now:

Where was this?

PC EU

Haki_7 · August 9

Moonspawn wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

@Avran_Sylt This is what I meant when I said that the most extreme form of anti-gaming imaginable is a thousand times easier now:

Where was this?

PC EU

Doesn't happen on PC NA.

Haki_7 · August 10

How many people involved?

Moonspawn · August 10

Haki_7 wrote: »

How many people involved?

Hard to say. According to the picture below, it might be several hundred.

Haki_7 · August 10

Moonspawn wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

How many people involved?

Hard to say. According to the picture below, it might be several hundred.

I'm still being forced to play on PC EU because of enormous queue times. No way I wouldn't notice hundreds of people doing that.

Jierdanit · August 10

Moonspawn wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

How many people involved?

Hard to say. According to the picture below, it might be several hundred.

Involved in what exactly?

Moonspawn · August 10

Haki_7 wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

How many people involved?

Hard to say. According to the picture below, it might be several hundred.

I'm still being forced to play on PC EU because of enormous queue times. No way I wouldn't notice hundreds of people doing that.

I would guess that the real number is around 10% of that, probably even less. A good way to identify them is if they say no one should be allowed to choose three-teams BGs and everyone needs to stay trapped in two-teams. Whoever says that either partakes in the disgusting practice, or is being manipulated by people that do.

Warhawke_80 · August 10

I mean what maybe 15% of the user base dabbles in PVP...maybe less?

Why waste manpower and money on a activity that so few participate in?

Thumbless_Bot · August 10

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

I mean what maybe 15% of the user base dabbles in PVP...maybe less?

Why waste manpower and money on a activity that so few participate in?

Eso generates roughly $200mm in revenue each year. 15% of that is $30mm... using your numbers of course.

Not sure how you do business, but I would spend several million a year make another 30mm.

Let's say pvp is the main reason a third of that population is retained. That's still 10 million. Let's say a third of that is bgs... that's 3.33mm.. still worth more than a few servers and devs I'd say.

No matter the percentages, Im fairly certain zos isn't going to leave money on the table. We are in the casino and gambling. They probably aren't going to open the door and ask us to leave. Then again, they did remove the game we were playing, so you never know.

shadoza · August 11

There are some tight feelings involved in this thread, so without agreeing or disagreeing with anyone directly. I wanted to toss in my pennies.

I love PvP. It is a great break from structured fighting.
I do not love ESO PvP. I do not enjoying being the fuel for someone's ego. I am a low-level player in PvP. When I tried the BG out, I enjoyed the concept; however, only once did I enjoy the fight. At one time, I couldn't get off the spawn area because someone was 1-hitting me the moment I moved to the edge. That is not playing for me, so I did not queue in again after that event.

Cryodill, I did not enjoy until the temporary balancing. I went into the fight several times during that period and enjoyed it until a group thought it fun to follow my path and kill me each time I arrived. Same folks; same over power attacks. Not as balanced as I had hoped. Certain classes had advantages. Groups had an advantage. Guilds had an advantage. I was getting ganked. I stopped queuing at that point and did not go out again.

Dying is not fun. No one learns to play a PvP mini-game by being made fodder for someone else's points collecting.
The concept is good.
There is an answer to allowing others who may not be great at PvP or have great gear to enjoy the game as well. Hope your discussion is productive. I would like to enjoy PvP again.

IndigoDreams · August 11

i did not read all the comments, was interested because of the moderator response.

the moderator response was not meaningful

anyway, good to see the same issues with battlegrounds.
2 team format was never going to solve the issue, its a tale as old as time. (like arena's in WoW...)

I decided against putting my thoughts because i have already ad naseum, just commenting to remind others that this issue has persisted and you cant force any individual to play a certain way

thanks for keeping the topic alive though

NxJoeyD · August 11

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

I mean what maybe 15% of the user base dabbles in PVP...maybe less?

Why waste manpower and money on a activity that so few participate in?

It probably varies from time to time. I played ESO for a solid run then left to check out New World and was there for a solid year & a half. The reason I left: the devs didn’t want to listen to the community base when it came to mechanical changes.

Most issues plaguing MMOs often focus on PvP mechanics. And while you’ll never make anyone happy there’s often a middle ground that can be found; especially if one were to pull meta data from forums and consolidate responses. Even minor tweaks could go a long way.

When I left New World they pushed me and others out of the gameplay, at endgame PvP. I was one of only 4% of US NA players who could craft custom gear (GS 700) .. only 4%! That’s because the mechanics were so poorly laid out that nobody could commit and it created a clear “have vs have nots” in endgame PvP.

We see aspects of that here in ESO; albeit for different reasons. But your endgame PvP players spend money on the game. They’re one of the larger groups of spenders you’re going to get (outside of subs). ZoS would be foolish to toss them out with the bath water.

NxJoeyD · August 11

Also, while we’re chatting about battle grounds …

Can someone explain why it is that Wardens can cast Swifness with objectives like Chaos Ball or Relic but Sorcs can’t Streak or Vampires Mist Form???? 0_o

Gray that ability out when carrying a match objective, make them trot the thing back just like the rest of us.

Haki_7 · August 11

Moonspawn wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

How many people involved?

Hard to say. According to the picture below, it might be several hundred.

I'm still being forced to play on PC EU because of enormous queue times. No way I wouldn't notice hundreds of people doing that.

I would guess that the real number is around 10% of that, probably even less. A good way to identify them is if they say no one should be allowed to choose three-teams BGs and everyone needs to stay trapped in two-teams. Whoever says that either partakes in the disgusting practice, or is being manipulated by people that do.

But do they always... partake?

Moonspawn · August 11

Haki_7 wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

How many people involved?

Hard to say. According to the picture below, it might be several hundred.

I'm still being forced to play on PC EU because of enormous queue times. No way I wouldn't notice hundreds of people doing that.

I would guess that the real number is around 10% of that, probably even less. A good way to identify them is if they say no one should be allowed to choose three-teams BGs and everyone needs to stay trapped in two-teams. Whoever says that either partakes in the disgusting practice, or is being manipulated by people that do.

But do they always... partake?

No idea. Some of the comments from the other thread suggest they've been at it since long before the introduction of two-teams.

Haki_7 · August 11

Moonspawn wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

How many people involved?

Hard to say. According to the picture below, it might be several hundred.

I'm still being forced to play on PC EU because of enormous queue times. No way I wouldn't notice hundreds of people doing that.

I would guess that the real number is around 10% of that, probably even less. A good way to identify them is if they say no one should be allowed to choose three-teams BGs and everyone needs to stay trapped in two-teams. Whoever says that either partakes in the disgusting practice, or is being manipulated by people that do.

But do they always... partake?

No idea. Some of the comments from the other thread suggest they've been at it since long before the introduction of two-teams.

I can't even imagine the level of supreme skill it would take to practice this ''anti-gaming'' in the middle of a three-sided brawl. Since it's so easy in two-teams, how can 8v8 be allowed to exist?

Moonspawn · August 11

Haki_7 wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

How many people involved?

Hard to say. According to the picture below, it might be several hundred.

I'm still being forced to play on PC EU because of enormous queue times. No way I wouldn't notice hundreds of people doing that.

I would guess that the real number is around 10% of that, probably even less. A good way to identify them is if they say no one should be allowed to choose three-teams BGs and everyone needs to stay trapped in two-teams. Whoever says that either partakes in the disgusting practice, or is being manipulated by people that do.

But do they always... partake?

No idea. Some of the comments from the other thread suggest they've been at it since long before the introduction of two-teams.

I can't even imagine the level of supreme skill it would take to practice this ''anti-gaming'' in the middle of a three-sided brawl. Since it's so easy in two-teams, how can 8v8 be allowed to exist?

That's a question I ask myself every day. There's a chance we'll find out if someone is able to solve this.

Avran_Sylt · August 12

Moonspawn wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

How many people involved?

Hard to say. According to the picture below, it might be several hundred.

I'm still being forced to play on PC EU because of enormous queue times. No way I wouldn't notice hundreds of people doing that.

I would guess that the real number is around 10% of that, probably even less. A good way to identify them is if they say no one should be allowed to choose three-teams BGs and everyone needs to stay trapped in two-teams. Whoever says that either partakes in the disgusting practice, or is being manipulated by people that do.

But do they always... partake?

No idea. Some of the comments from the other thread suggest they've been at it since long before the introduction of two-teams.

I can't even imagine the level of supreme skill it would take to practice this ''anti-gaming'' in the middle of a three-sided brawl. Since it's so easy in two-teams, how can 8v8 be allowed to exist?

That's a question I ask myself every day. There's a chance we'll find out if someone is able to solve this.

... Not even "supreme skill". Consolidate your compatriots to those that benefit you and yours to survival. Kill your opponents with the least amount of resources required.

Moonspawn · August 12

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

How many people involved?

Hard to say. According to the picture below, it might be several hundred.

I'm still being forced to play on PC EU because of enormous queue times. No way I wouldn't notice hundreds of people doing that.

I would guess that the real number is around 10% of that, probably even less. A good way to identify them is if they say no one should be allowed to choose three-teams BGs and everyone needs to stay trapped in two-teams. Whoever says that either partakes in the disgusting practice, or is being manipulated by people that do.

But do they always... partake?

No idea. Some of the comments from the other thread suggest they've been at it since long before the introduction of two-teams.

I can't even imagine the level of supreme skill it would take to practice this ''anti-gaming'' in the middle of a three-sided brawl. Since it's so easy in two-teams, how can 8v8 be allowed to exist?

That's a question I ask myself every day. There's a chance we'll find out if someone is able to solve this.

... Not even "supreme skill". Consolidate your compatriots to those that benefit you and yours to survival. Kill your opponents with the least amount of resources required.

The first and second items from the list would look pretty much identical in-game.

''1) Since you can't use one team against another anymore, its difficult for BG regulars to engage each other without discarding everything they know about positioning and target selection.
2) The most extreme form of anti-gaming imaginable is a thousand times easier now.''

Haki_7 · August 12

90% of all my Chaosball matches end up becoming staring contests with ball carriers, healing them. My team goes to spawncamp the enemies. Sure seems like another problem that can only be solved by going back to the real BGs. Would this be the fifth item on the list?

Three-teams Chaosball: Paradise
Two-teams Chaosball: Hell

Moonspawn · August 12

Haki_7 wrote: »

90% of all my Chaosball matches end up becoming staring contests with ball carriers, healing them. My team goes to spawncamp the enemies. Sure seems like another problem that can only be solved by going back to the real BGs. Would this be the fifth item on the list?

Three-teams Chaosball: Paradise
Two-teams Chaosball: Hell

That's just a result of the third item:

''3. Spawncamping is encouraged by the two-sided format itself in every gamemode.''

Moonspawn · August 13

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Also, while we’re chatting about battle grounds …

Can someone explain why it is that Wardens can cast Swifness with objectives like Chaos Ball or Relic but Sorcs can’t Streak or Vampires Mist Form???? 0_o

Gray that ability out when carrying a match objective, make them trot the thing back just like the rest of us.

Three-teams Chaosball could be amazing if they fix the cheesy places and find a way to make it impossible for the ball carrier to speed around the map at Mach 10.

Haki_7 · August 13

Moonspawn wrote: »

That's just a result of the third item:

''3. Spawncamping is encouraged by the two-sided format itself in every gamemode.''

The worst part is that it always lasts more than 5 minutes, which is longer than the penalty for leaving the match. I just don't see a way to fix the game mode, it's like no one even bothered to test it.

Haki_7 · August 14

The third reason for why it's so hard to balance these BGs (the usefulness of spawncamping) should probably be explained with pictures.

NxJoeyD · August 14

Haki_7 wrote: »

The third reason for why it's so hard to balance these BGs (the usefulness of spawncamping) should probably be explained with pictures.

Spawn camping shouldn’t be a thing in these game modes. There’s really two logical ways to approach that: 1) install a reasonable zone at team spawns that’s harmful to the other team. Basically, take the Chaosball mechanic and apply it to map coords with applicability to players with the opposing team attribute. …. OR …. They could simply broad balance PvP; making it much harder for one side to camp the other.

Some people are suggesting balancing PvP via changes to queues. Personally, I don’t think that will be as successful and would probably create more complications than solutions.

Balancing PvP really is simple, a “Competetive Index” factor on each build that adjusts values in connection with selections players make to their builds whether it be abilities or gear. With this you’d still get build diversity and personality play styles but what you wouldn’t have are ability and gear combinations with little counter play or that outpace everybody else.

I’ve said it before, ESO PvP is like a soup and ZOS has been poring in ingredients for years and now it’s getting to the point where it’s starting to taste like slop.

Also, while we’re on BG’s … can we get a vote for a hard cap on block cost reductions while Battle Spirit is active? …. Let’s be real, we’ve got a hard cap on resistance for a reason, why not Block cost reductions? The change ZoS made to block cost to stop perma-blocking didn’t really stop perma-blocking … nobody should be blocking 80k + worth of damage for the low low cost of around 900 stam / sec with an aggressive cost reduction. That’s less than a flight on Spirit. …. IMO a hard cap at 60% of base cost is fair.

We don’t want to penalize blocking or prevent people from blocking high damage but we don’t need people blocking persistently high damage without a genuine cost factor; and right now block is more abused than a non stick fry pan because the stam cost can be cut down to a managers special.

This could also open the door for additional sets / passives that could reduce block cost by X% for Y seconds. Putting a hard timer on aggressive block cost reductions.