Future of Battlegrounds

Urzigurumash · July 26

Not saying they're flawless, but the issues are already well established on this forum right now. Just providing some testimony as to why many wanted this change and what aspect has been successful.

Moonspawn · July 27

moo_2021 wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

An objective queue would be completely dead within a month. The moment people get whatever associated achievements there are they'll never touch that queue again, and no actual PvP:er that genuinely want to PvP will actively queue for objective modes. This happened with the original queue system where people stopped queuing for the objective modes once they had the achievements.

It's bad map/objective design, not bad game mode.

In simple shooting games it's usually more engaging to have CTF than TDM, because you have to focus on the right opponents instead of whoever have lowest health.

In 3 teams fight, chaos ball was often good if the ball holder wasn't hiding and/or running in max speed.

And ESO still needs something that can attract new players, not just regular PvP players.

Yes, three-teams Chaosball could've been made incredibly fun simply by capping the speed of the ball carrier and fixing the cheesy places.

My idea for revamping Capture the Relic is similar to what you mentioned about shooting games CTF, and inspired by this particular situation:

Here are the problems with the gamemode:

Standing around guarding a relic is boring.
Pointlessly parsing a tank who is guarding a relic is boring.
Having your relic stolen through the wall, or because the grabbing animation didn't play correctly is boring.

And here's how it could have been fixed:

A player from each team would be randomly selected as the ''relic holder'', and the goal of the match would be to kill the other team's holder while protecting your own. When this player died the relic would select one of their teammates as its new vessel and jump to them after 30 seconds. (This player would obviously need to be ejected from spawn after a period of time.)
The game mode would function like an extremely high level Deathmatch from the olden days, but with training wheels. Imagine a 3 teams DM, but the softest target of every team is being indicated by the relic. In the worst possible scenario, the two stronger teams would be compelled to fight in the spawn of the softer team, but because of the relic's debuff, this fight would never stalemate to the point of not being worth it. They would fight, relic holders would die, jump to other players, and the new holders would die too. It would be impossible to trap the softer team.

moo_2021 · July 27

Urzigurumash wrote: »

On Xbox NA, 2 flag 4v4 Domination is often the most competitive format we've ever had, to be honest. 4 point differential off the rip that isn't clear as to the winner until the last tick. I want a 1 ball 4v4 Chaosball. The main problem in old BGs was how the maps and 3 team formats promoted evasion over engagement. The small maps on 4v4 resolve the issue of those who just want to fight and those who want to win having opposite interests.

4vs4 is only good in very rare instances when you have equal amounts of pvp players on both side. That happens like once in 100 games. In all other cases it's a disaster to one of the teams.

Navaac223 · July 27

moo_2021 wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

On Xbox NA, 2 flag 4v4 Domination is often the most competitive format we've ever had, to be honest. 4 point differential off the rip that isn't clear as to the winner until the last tick. I want a 1 ball 4v4 Chaosball. The main problem in old BGs was how the maps and 3 team formats promoted evasion over engagement. The small maps on 4v4 resolve the issue of those who just want to fight and those who want to win having opposite interests.

4vs4 is only good in very rare instances when you have equal amounts of pvp players on both side. That happens like once in 100 games. In all other cases it's a disaster to one of the teams.

*A disaster to both teams.
As a pvp player in 4v4 bgs (a rare breed it seems), every match I win is a pain. Because of the 2 minutes timer to jump down, a lot of people love to sit in a corner of their spawn and make you wait for the rest of the match.

It's actually mind blowing how zos destroyed everything that was ensuring good matches :

-Of course, there was the third team that we won't shut up about, that prevented people like me from spawnkilling the other team because spawnkilling wasn't the best way of getting kills : it was rather to walk like 10 meters to the right to find the other team.

-Anyone remembers the respawn timer ? In the new bgs, we almost always res instantly but there used to be a system made specifically to make multiple people spawn at the same time. For example, you die and have to wait 15 secs. In that time, another teammate dies and his timer matches yours. You then spawn together, wich gives you the courage to jump down

-Some maps had multiple points you could jump from, so 4 people couldn't wait at one point. Worst case scenario, there would be 1 player spawncamping at each exit (but, in 2 years of basically weekly bg, I've never seen that happen because of all of the above)

-The maps were bigger, with clear points where people would fight that were conveniently far away from the spawns (for example, that one map with trap blades in the middle, or the lava map, or the one with teleporters that lead to a platform in the middle). The walking time was actually significant, meaning you couldn't sprint to the ennemy spawn before they even respawned (and thus just staying where you are to fight the remaining players was the obviously better option)

-Less rewards. Ight this one might not be a bad change but we used to get way less transmutes for bgs. If I remember well, it was maybe 5 in the rewards for the worthy before it got changed to 25. This led to an afflux of pve players coming to try and get transmutes... without pvp builds. Of course, pve players being pve players, they often end up cowering in their spawn or trying to kill people from range (just look at IC spawns during Mayhem). This is unfortunately one of the main reasons for one-sided matches. Maybe you should only get rewards if you contribute significantly ? Idk, but the increased transmutes aren't the blessing they seemed to be.

Literally just reverting the changes would make bgs way better but if zos really want to keep 4v4/8v8, they need to bring back some of the fixes that used to work so well (go ahead, find a 4v4v4 bg clip where players are literally waiting below an ennemy team to spawnkill them. I'll get an external hard drive for 4v4 matches that end in spawn camping)

ScardyFox · July 27

^^^^

I’ve come back to this game again after a few years’ hiatus (but let's be real, I’ll probably bail again because werewolf is still a joke and they’ll never bother to actually update it — not that it matters, right?). And this new BG? Absolutely dreadful. This list is the perfect example of why I can't stand it.

The PvP kept me hooked from beta through countless years, but now? With everything falling apart, especially battlegrounds? Yeah, they still don’t listen, and they never have in a meaningful way.

Haki_7 · July 28

Destruction of Battlegrounds Chapter 86: Waiting 25 minutes for a lopsided match (Solo 8v8 PC/NA)

https://youtu.be/Xp0yXITdItE

Urzigurumash · July 28

moo_2021 wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

On Xbox NA, 2 flag 4v4 Domination is often the most competitive format we've ever had, to be honest. 4 point differential off the rip that isn't clear as to the winner until the last tick. I want a 1 ball 4v4 Chaosball. The main problem in old BGs was how the maps and 3 team formats promoted evasion over engagement. The small maps on 4v4 resolve the issue of those who just want to fight and those who want to win having opposite interests.

4vs4 is only good in very rare instances when you have equal amounts of pvp players on both side. That happens like once in 100 games. In all other cases it's a disaster to one of the teams.

Right, and all of Haki's posts above this seem to be about matchmaking problems rather than the modes. 4v4 Domination works in a way others don't. Lots of experienced PvPer 4v4 DMs timeout with few to no deaths.

Moonspawn · July 29

Urzigurumash wrote: »

moo_2021 wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

On Xbox NA, 2 flag 4v4 Domination is often the most competitive format we've ever had, to be honest. 4 point differential off the rip that isn't clear as to the winner until the last tick. I want a 1 ball 4v4 Chaosball. The main problem in old BGs was how the maps and 3 team formats promoted evasion over engagement. The small maps on 4v4 resolve the issue of those who just want to fight and those who want to win having opposite interests.

4vs4 is only good in very rare instances when you have equal amounts of pvp players on both side. That happens like once in 100 games. In all other cases it's a disaster to one of the teams.

Right, and all of Haki's posts above this seem to be about matchmaking problems rather than the modes. 4v4 Domination works in a way others don't. Lots of experienced PvPer 4v4 DMs timeout with few to no deaths.

4v4 would still be available. Are you able to choose multiple queues simultaneously on Xbox?

Urzigurumash · July 29

Moonspawn wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

moo_2021 wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

On Xbox NA, 2 flag 4v4 Domination is often the most competitive format we've ever had, to be honest. 4 point differential off the rip that isn't clear as to the winner until the last tick. I want a 1 ball 4v4 Chaosball. The main problem in old BGs was how the maps and 3 team formats promoted evasion over engagement. The small maps on 4v4 resolve the issue of those who just want to fight and those who want to win having opposite interests.

4vs4 is only good in very rare instances when you have equal amounts of pvp players on both side. That happens like once in 100 games. In all other cases it's a disaster to one of the teams.

Right, and all of Haki's posts above this seem to be about matchmaking problems rather than the modes. 4v4 Domination works in a way others don't. Lots of experienced PvPer 4v4 DMs timeout with few to no deaths.

4v4 would still be available. Are you able to choose multiple queues simultaneously on Xbox?

Yeah, all 4 of em, doing that during prime time is insta pop every day basically

Moonspawn · July 29

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

moo_2021 wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

On Xbox NA, 2 flag 4v4 Domination is often the most competitive format we've ever had, to be honest. 4 point differential off the rip that isn't clear as to the winner until the last tick. I want a 1 ball 4v4 Chaosball. The main problem in old BGs was how the maps and 3 team formats promoted evasion over engagement. The small maps on 4v4 resolve the issue of those who just want to fight and those who want to win having opposite interests.

4vs4 is only good in very rare instances when you have equal amounts of pvp players on both side. That happens like once in 100 games. In all other cases it's a disaster to one of the teams.

Right, and all of Haki's posts above this seem to be about matchmaking problems rather than the modes. 4v4 Domination works in a way others don't. Lots of experienced PvPer 4v4 DMs timeout with few to no deaths.

4v4 would still be available. Are you able to choose multiple queues simultaneously on Xbox?

Yeah, all 4 of em, doing that during prime time is insta pop every day basically

There you go, then. Just let people queue simultaneously for whatever options they prefer.

Urzigurumash · July 29

Moonspawn wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

moo_2021 wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

On Xbox NA, 2 flag 4v4 Domination is often the most competitive format we've ever had, to be honest. 4 point differential off the rip that isn't clear as to the winner until the last tick. I want a 1 ball 4v4 Chaosball. The main problem in old BGs was how the maps and 3 team formats promoted evasion over engagement. The small maps on 4v4 resolve the issue of those who just want to fight and those who want to win having opposite interests.

4vs4 is only good in very rare instances when you have equal amounts of pvp players on both side. That happens like once in 100 games. In all other cases it's a disaster to one of the teams.

Right, and all of Haki's posts above this seem to be about matchmaking problems rather than the modes. 4v4 Domination works in a way others don't. Lots of experienced PvPer 4v4 DMs timeout with few to no deaths.

4v4 would still be available. Are you able to choose multiple queues simultaneously on Xbox?

Yeah, all 4 of em, doing that during prime time is insta pop every day basically

There you go, then. Just let people queue simultaneously for whatever options they prefer.

Yeah for sure, notice a PS player said they have short queues too. Definitely gonna say this is PC BGs number 1 problem then

Haki_7 · July 30

Standard 8v8 Deathmatch, driving people away from BGs. Here's the solution.

karthrag_inak · July 30

If 3 team returned in any manifestation, khajiit promises he would play tbose bgs every day

Thumbless_Bot · July 30

karthrag_inak wrote: »

If 3 team returned in any manifestation, khajiit promises he would play tbose bgs every day

So would most of the folks in the guilds I am in.

We would also mostly only queue for deathmatch.

Neither of these things are likely to happen.

Haki_7 · July 30

Destruction of Battlegrounds Chapter 87: Waiting 21 minutes for a lopsided match (Solo 8v8 PC/NA)

https://youtu.be/o65KMo9wv4g

Haki_7 · July 31

In three-team BGs, identifying the correct target order marked the beginning of the fight. In two-teams BGs, it marks its end.

LadyGP · July 31

Moonspawn wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

Three team battlegrounds wouldn't help it's popularity. It's such an oddball format. I couldn't understand why they did it in the first place.

To be honest, I am out of touch with other match based PVP games, but have any 3 team games ever been successful? The format has been experimented with at least since the original Quakeworld Teamfortress in 1997 and I've never seen it gain traction anywhere.

The format is not the problem here. The main problem is ESO is mainly an ultra-casual PVE game and probably one of the easiest in the history of gaming. It's just not appealing to people into PVP. And in turn, PVP just isn't interesting to its existing audience. They only go there for rewards.

There are also a lot of gameplay issues, but I think if Battlegrounds was a standalone F2P game that PVP players could just download and play with some level of minor progression within its format, it could be popular despite its issues... but it would require a lot more map variety.

History of Battlegrounds

2018) Placing daily seekers into the same matches as BG regulars who only wanted to play DM all day: Disaster.

2022) Forcing BG regulars into objective matches: Even greater disaster.

2022) BG weekends, forcing people to play the same mode over and over again ad infinitum: Another disaster.

2024) Luring players with daily XP, endeavors, golden pursuits, tokens and obscene amounts of transmutation crystals, but removing the third team: The greatest disaster... yet.

You shouldn't have to lure players into an area - if that is your objective.. if that user story every makes it to the backlog you have already failed. Instead you need to make the content/experience exciting enough that players will naturally want to do it.

I'm glad to see the trend of "forcing" players to do thing by dangling objects in front of them (rewards) is starting to dye out in other games. Right now, ESO went so deep into that I don't think they will ever be able to come back from it.

Rewards creates artifical loyalty that is hands down the easiest thing to break. ESO needs to make the content exciting enough that the loyalty is there. I'm not saying eso is boring or gamers aren't loyal (I've been here since beta and I'm still here) I'm just saying... the player count continues to drop for a reason... and no amount of new hsiny rewards will fix that trent (in the long term).

ines2015 · July 31

During the PVP events we should be able to play Battlegrounds in 1v1 mode or allowing NPC to fill the missing players on the other modes. Because it's very, very rare to find a group lately, at least on PC EU.

Haki_7 · August 1

Moonspawn wrote: »

History of Battlegrounds

2018) Placing daily seekers into the same matches as BG regulars who only wanted to play DM all day: Disaster.

2022) Forcing BG regulars into objective matches: Even greater disaster.

2022) BG weekends, forcing people to play the same mode over and over again ad infinitum: Another disaster.

2024) Luring players with daily XP, endeavors, golden pursuits, tokens and obscene amounts of transmutation crystals, but removing the third team: The greatest disaster... yet.

2018) Even though you could select the modes individually in the beginning, the only worthwhile reward (daily XP) was restricted to the Random Queue. Zenimax wanted people to play all gamemodes, not just DM.

2022) Removal of the ability to choose modes individually, including the Deathmatch Queue. Again Zenimax telling players to play the objective modes.

2022) BG weekends. Once again Zenimax trying to get people to play the objective modes.

2024) Instead of simply making it harder for the third team to complete the objective uncontested, they went and got rid of the third team entirely. Another attempt to get people to play the objective modes.

Moonspawn · August 2

Haki_7 wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

History of Battlegrounds

2018) Placing daily seekers into the same matches as BG regulars who only wanted to play DM all day: Disaster.

2022) Forcing BG regulars into objective matches: Even greater disaster.

2022) BG weekends, forcing people to play the same mode over and over again ad infinitum: Another disaster.

2024) Luring players with daily XP, endeavors, golden pursuits, tokens and obscene amounts of transmutation crystals, but removing the third team: The greatest disaster... yet.

2018) Even though you could select the modes individually in the beginning, the only worthwhile reward (daily XP) was restricted to the Random Queue. Zenimax wanted people to play all gamemodes, not just DM.

2022) Removal of the ability to choose modes individually, including the Deathmatch Queue. Again Zenimax telling players to play the objective modes.

2022) BG weekends. Once again Zenimax trying to get people to play the objective modes.

2024) Instead of simply making it harder for the third team to complete the objective uncontested, they went and got rid of the third team entirely. Another attempt to get people to play the objective modes.

You might be onto something here. Maybe the whole series of puzzling decisions that made players hate BGs wasn't so random after all.

Thumbless_Bot · August 2

Moonspawn wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

History of Battlegrounds

2018) Placing daily seekers into the same matches as BG regulars who only wanted to play DM all day: Disaster.

2022) Forcing BG regulars into objective matches: Even greater disaster.

2022) BG weekends, forcing people to play the same mode over and over again ad infinitum: Another disaster.

2024) Luring players with daily XP, endeavors, golden pursuits, tokens and obscene amounts of transmutation crystals, but removing the third team: The greatest disaster... yet.

2018) Even though you could select the modes individually in the beginning, the only worthwhile reward (daily XP) was restricted to the Random Queue. Zenimax wanted people to play all gamemodes, not just DM.

2022) Removal of the ability to choose modes individually, including the Deathmatch Queue. Again Zenimax telling players to play the objective modes.

2022) BG weekends. Once again Zenimax trying to get people to play the objective modes.

2024) Instead of simply making it harder for the third team to complete the objective uncontested, they went and got rid of the third team entirely. Another attempt to get people to play the objective modes.

You might be onto something here. Maybe the whole series of puzzling decisions that made players hate BGs wasn't so random after all.

Like I keep saying, home decorating competitions will be end game pvp when its a all over.

Haki_7 · August 2

Destruction of Battlegrounds Chapter 88: Waiting 24 minutes for a lopsided match (Solo 8v8 PC/NA)

https://youtu.be/LrIYJAI-do4

Chrisilis · August 3

You know what I just read? A thread where people were tagging the Devs in the comments and they actually answered. Shocking. I am Shocked. They do exist! For some players. Not us. But somewhere out there, beyond the setting sun, a Dev is living their best life, riding their unicorn on a lonely beach, composing a response to put some lucky players concerns to rest. Not ours. But someone's! Be encouraged!

Thumbless_Bot · August 3

We get crickets.

Avran_Sylt · August 3

Chrisilis wrote: »

You know what I just read? A thread where people were tagging the Devs in the comments and they actually answered. Shocking. I am Shocked. They do exist! For some players. Not us. But somewhere out there, beyond the setting sun, a Dev is living their best life, riding their unicorn on a lonely beach, composing a response to put some lucky players concerns to rest. Not ours. But someone's! Be encouraged!

This thread (since the last one was closed?) is the continual bumping of the thread by a player that doesn't realize there's still MMR in 8v8 and who seems absolutely adamant to not try grouping/soloqueuing into 4v4/8v8 group comp to find a "challenge".

radiostar · August 3

The game needs to get us back up and into the battle in 5 seconds or less. If you can't get me back up within 5 secs, then what good are you really?
And plus sometimes I go to the battle master and he says go rest and come back. That needs to end.

Chrisilis · August 3

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Chrisilis wrote: »

You know what I just read? A thread where people were tagging the Devs in the comments and they actually answered. Shocking. I am Shocked. They do exist! For some players. Not us. But somewhere out there, beyond the setting sun, a Dev is living their best life, riding their unicorn on a lonely beach, composing a response to put some lucky players concerns to rest. Not ours. But someone's! Be encouraged!

This thread (since the last one was closed?) is the continual bumping of the thread by a player that doesn't realize there's still MMR in 8v8 and who seems absolutely adamant to not try grouping/soloqueuing into 4v4/8v8 group comp to find a "challenge".

Didn't you think that was funny? I thought it was funny. Gently poking fun at the ridiculousness of the situation is not "bumping" its pointing out that not all players concerns are treated equally in that some topics are worthy of Developer engagement and others are, apparently, not. Just as some people have a sense of humor and others, apparently, dont.

And I'm aware there's MMR in 8v8, it tells you so several times per match when players desert the Battleground because of the awful, horrible no good very bad balance. That was also funny. In case you missed it. I dont know how 4v4 is on your platform but on PS its so hit or miss as to be almost unplayable. At least in 8v8 you get some close matches, in 4v4 its a one sided massacre 99% of the time. So ill pass.

At this point I dont think anybody really thinks these Battleground threads will make any difference, what's done is done, make the best of it. But you never know, its not hurting anything to keep the conversation going and the whole point of a forum is to exchange ideas and provide feedback. So if its okay with you, we'll continue to lament the loss of an aspect of the game we enjoyed, that we paid for that we would like back. If its okay with you, that is.

Avran_Sylt · August 3

Chrisilis wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Chrisilis wrote: »

You know what I just read? A thread where people were tagging the Devs in the comments and they actually answered. Shocking. I am Shocked. They do exist! For some players. Not us. But somewhere out there, beyond the setting sun, a Dev is living their best life, riding their unicorn on a lonely beach, composing a response to put some lucky players concerns to rest. Not ours. But someone's! Be encouraged!

This thread (since the last one was closed?) is the continual bumping of the thread by a player that doesn't realize there's still MMR in 8v8 and who seems absolutely adamant to not try grouping/soloqueuing into 4v4/8v8 group comp to find a "challenge".

Didn't you think that was funny? I thought it was funny. Gently poking fun at the ridiculousness of the situation is not "bumping" its pointing out that not all players concerns are treated equally in that some topics are worthy of Developer engagement and others are, apparently, not. Just as some people have a sense of humor and others, apparently, dont.

And I'm aware there's MMR in 8v8, it tells you so several times per match when players desert the Battleground because of the awful, horrible no good very bad balance. That was also funny. In case you missed it. I dont know how 4v4 is on your platform but on PS its so hit or miss as to be almost unplayable. At least in 8v8 you get some close matches, in 4v4 its a one sided massacre 99% of the time. So ill pass.

At this point I dont think anybody really thinks these Battleground threads will make any difference, what's done is done, make the best of it. But you never know, its not hurting anything to keep the conversation going and the whole point of a forum is to exchange ideas and provide feedback. So if its okay with you, we'll continue to lament the loss of an aspect of the game we enjoyed, that we paid for that we would like back. If its okay with you, that is.

Funny? No. I'm just annoyed at how unbelievably dense some players can be. This bloke says these matches are lopsided, and guess what? They're consistently on the lopsided team. Perhaps there's a reason as to why (lets see the full match and not just the scoreboard screenshots)? I do want to give the benefit of the doubt and not call them out for boasting, but they may just be the reason. (I know there are some game-modes where being on the bottom of the leaderboard doesn't mean you had no impact, *cough* Relic Capture... And one good healer can make all the difference).

I'm a glass cannon, I kill a lot, die a lot, and don't have too much issue either way. I have quick queues (<5min) and no issues, I'm usually near the top of the leaderboard (I'm objective oriented), but I can't 1vX, like, at all, so I typically get booted back every now and then.

It's not ridiculous. They're dense. It's like a Challenger LoL player moaning about queue times. Yeah, it's because you make the experience worse for anyone you queue with not matched to your skill/build.

Avran_Sylt · August 3

At the same time we only have their word that they don't have any good matches.

Chrisilis · August 3

Truly, even tho people point out the balance issues (its me, I'm people) I think balance has gotten much much better since this format was introduced. In the beginning it was terrible but credit where credit is due, its gotten better. Perhaps it took a while for players to adapt and now that the maps are familiar and the strategies are worked out its not as extreme an issue as it used to be. Still not great but better.

And I'm objective oriented also, what's the point of getting all the kills if you lose? You're a loser with lots of kills lol. I'm not a sweat by any stretch, I play to have fun. I play to win. Im in the middle, not the most kills but not the least either.

And I get that these threads are kind of beating a dead horse but it has been incredibly frustrating to have lost a part of our lives that we enjoyed and to have it replaced with a dollar store version and to be met with silence when we request information on the possibility of getting it back even in a limited way. If the devs wanted to they could simply tell us its never gonna happen, here's your 3 team weekend now shut up about it. But they dont. They dont say anything. And so here we are. Still talking about it. Since they won't talk to us.