Rakkhat’s Voidmantle should work with Overload. Don’t take away the fun again

Calibanana

I am definitely not the person to test this, as I have neither the tools nor the best understanding of running damage tests. But I am curious about something @ZOS_Kevin mentioned in this discussion:

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Just for additional follow up, we are aiming to fix an issue where the damage bonus isn't working like other bonuses, causing it to increase other damage bonuses instead of adding together with them.

What I am wondering is: If Rakkhat's is increasing other damage bonuses instead of adding together with them, does that mean that at a baseline Rakkhat's +50% Damage Bonus isn't actually applying on its own? Is it instead only applying a +50% boost to other bonuses, and that without any damage bonus like Sergeant's or Empower it isn't actually boosting the damage of Heavy Attacks at all?

I'm asking because the wording of "causing it to increase other damage bonuses instead of adding together with them" feels like it implies that. But I could be completely wrong.

Zyaneth_Bal

It's the same thing, you multiply a number by a % then multiply by 1.5 (50% rakkhat). It was supposed to be additive, in other words only increase the base number and not increase other % buffs further. If this is indeed how it is then rakkhat is going to lose a chunk of damage. @Calibanana

Calibanana

Ah, okay then. Though I suppose if other bonuses are supposed to work additively, and as a result Rakkhat's is going to lose a big chunk of damage by getting fixed to work the same, that's probably for the best.

And for people who enjoy heavy attack builds, like myself, it'll probably still be worth it to use Rakkhat's just because it's still extra damage.

PeacefulAnarchy

Calibanana wrote: »

I am definitely not the person to test this, as I have neither the tools nor the best understanding of running damage tests. But I am curious about something @ZOS_Kevin mentioned in this discussion:

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Just for additional follow up, we are aiming to fix an issue where the damage bonus isn't working like other bonuses, causing it to increase other damage bonuses instead of adding together with them.

What I am wondering is: If Rakkhat's is increasing other damage bonuses instead of adding together with them, does that mean that at a baseline Rakkhat's +50% Damage Bonus isn't actually applying on its own? Is it instead only applying a +50% boost to other bonuses, and that without any damage bonus like Sergeant's or Empower it isn't actually boosting the damage of Heavy Attacks at all?

I'm asking because the wording of "causing it to increase other damage bonuses instead of adding together with them" feels like it implies that. But I could be completely wrong.

I did do some testing, a few things still aren't clear to me but in general it's:

A-Stats+W/S damage boosts make W/S damage. This converts into a base value of a heavy attack tick. (The last tick has 3x base tick.)
B-Then the game calculates general damage bonuses (berserk, Weapon's Expert and deadly aim for example, but also things like Energized's 5% to shock damage and Amplitude's percent based on health)
C-It then multiplies the heavy attack tick value by that.
D-Then it multiplies that value by 1.5 for voidmantle
E-Then it multiplies that value 1.7 if you have empower.

On pts voidmantle's 50% is included in B and step D doesn't exist.

So If you have: Minor Berserk ,Weapon's Expert, Deadly aim, and Energized and nothing else that is 5+20+6+5=36% damage done bonus. Plus Voidmantle and empower, and no other bonuses to HA or damage.

on live the calculation is
(tick) x(1.36)x(1.5)x(1.7)

On PTS the calculation is
(tick) x(1.86)x(1.7)

(1.36)x(1.5)=2.04 so the effective change is 2.04 goes down to 1.86 which is a 10%ish reduction for that combo.

The more damage bonuses you have in that category the more this is a nerf.

However!!!!!
1) note that a lot of bonuses are not damage bonuses but rather W/S damage bonuses (like bloodthirsty or Brutality and Sorcery) This goes into A and calculated before the base HA tick is calculated.
2) others like Slayer or ansuul's percent to monsters are in the same category as empower, brought into calculation after.
1 and 2 are not affected at all by this change.

and the part that isn't clear to me:
Set bonuses like Sergeant's bonus to HA fit in there somewhere in a way that is not quite clear to me and seem to mitigate this nerf a bit, but not fully.

Calibanana

@PeacefulAnarchy Thanks for running some testing! That math you wrote out does help me to better understand what's going on in PTS vs Live.

While it might bite that fixing the issue with Rakkhat's will nerf it, I do still think it's probably for the best they do it now. It stings less to find the issue and fix it now than it would to have Rakkhat's function the way it does for a year or more and only fix it later. A shame, but it's still a damage boost so I'll probably still find ways to use it.

Personally I think it'd be cool if there was a system in place for players to choose if they want to use Rakkhat's changes universally, without needing the item. But from what I've heard that test from years ago for just such a change wasn't well received, so it's probably niche enough that a full system will never happen.

Zyaneth_Bal

Calibanana wrote: »

Ah, okay then. Though I suppose if other bonuses are supposed to work additively, and as a result Rakkhat's is going to lose a big chunk of damage by getting fixed to work the same, that's probably for the best.

And for people who enjoy heavy attack builds, like myself, it'll probably still be worth it to use Rakkhat's just because it's still extra damage.

Yes. But even though it was stronger than intended it was not overly strong and didn't result in any game breaking interactions, so imo it should've been left as is.

xStaticx

The only high DPS parses I've ever seen with Voidmantle are only due to it's interaction with Overload. Now that is no longer possible.

Why nerf it further? Cutting out Overload is nerf enough.

ajkb78

Even if this were too strong in PVP, which one person ganking a couple of potatoes doesn't prove, by far the better solution would have been to take the same approach as with Empower and make it buff heavy attack damage against monsters only. I don't think even that is warranted, but at least then it could have a niche in PVP as a competitive-but-not-meta playstyle.

Zyaneth_Bal

xStaticx wrote: »

The only high DPS parses I've ever seen with Voidmantle are only due to it's interaction with Overload. Now that is no longer possible.

Why nerf it further? Cutting out Overload is nerf enough.

Overload is only that good for bursts, in longer fights it's not stronger than generic ultis, like incap is def stronger in st. So unless you enjoy using it it's not a big deal for dps.

They "nerf" Voidmantle because it doesn't work exactly the way they intended (even though it's perfectly fine this way). As I understand it Overload has been disabled for a different reason: Voidmantle disables resource restoration from heavy attacks but Overload doen't restore resources, so it ignores this penalty and thus shouldn't benefit from extra damage. To be honest this sounds like an incredibly silly reason to me. We just can't have nice things.

YandereGirlfriend

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

xStaticx wrote: »

The only high DPS parses I've ever seen with Voidmantle are only due to it's interaction with Overload. Now that is no longer possible.

Why nerf it further? Cutting out Overload is nerf enough.

Overload is only that good for bursts, in longer fights it's not stronger than generic ultis, like incap is def stronger in st. So unless you enjoy using it it's not a big deal for dps.

They "nerf" Voidmantle because it doesn't work exactly the way they intended (even though it's perfectly fine this way). As I understand it Overload has been disabled for a different reason: Voidmantle disables resource restoration from heavy attacks but Overload doen't restore resources, so it ignores this penalty and thus shouldn't benefit from extra damage. To be honest this sounds like an incredibly silly reason to me. We just can't have nice things.

Definitely agree with you.

It should work with the other morph, then, if we're trying to win at playing silly semantic games.

Zyaneth_Bal

The mythic's function is essentially to switch roles of light and heavy attacks. Light attacks are used for damage inbetween skills while heavy attacks are used to restore resources while dealing less damage overall. Voidmantle makes light attack restore resources and nerf it's damage, to put it in heavy attack's place, while heavy attack no longer restores resources because it's function now is to deal damage, additionally receives a buff partially to make up for the fact that it's the main source of damage and thus less skills are used and more damage on top because mythic needs to result in power net positive. Therefore, if Overload heavy attacks happen to already not restore resources it's fine, because disabled heavy attack restoration is not in fact a true penalty, more of a change. I would call it a penalty if Voidmantle didn't enable light attacks to restore resources instead but they do and this restoration acts excactly as that of heavy attacks, further proving my point.
@ZOS_Kevin can you pass this along too, please?

sleepy_worm

They took away ultimate generation because ultimates are supposed to be special.

So treat Overload, an ultimate, as a special case. No need to give it the spreadsheet buzz cut.

Zovax

After spending a while making a build for Rakkhat’s, this became my favorite play style I’ve had in my many years in this game. I don’t really understand the nerf considering any Arcanist build can easily out-damage any build you could put together with this. It also has more of a complex rotation than Flail+Beam for Arcanist with less of the reward. Please @ZOS_Kevin can you pass on this feedback.

Calibanana

Raising this thread again, as I do have to wonder: Is there any way that Overload itself could be changed so that it could work with Rakkhat's?

Because it seems to me like the reason it's not working is because the heavy attack on Overload isn't really a "traditional" heavy attack, as it becomes a channeled cone in front of you that doesn't have a "tick tick Final Tick" mechanic. So there could be something on the backend that makes it not function quite like a normal heavy attack, and thus it causes friction with things that buff heavy attacks specifically.

So what if Overload's heavy attack were to be changed to be a lightning beam, similar to the heavy attack Lightning Destro Staves, but it does AoE damage on all ticks instead of only the final tick? That way it's still a great cleave tool, and might operate in a way where it doesn't clash with Rakkhat's.

This is of course assuming there is something on the backend that could make Overload not function with Rakkhat's anymore now that Rakkhat's bonus is getting fixed. And while wishful perhaps, I would prefer to assume that's the case unless @ZOS_Kevin could clarify otherwise.

Malyore

Calibanana wrote: »

Raising this thread again, as I do have to wonder: Is there any way that Overload itself could be changed so that it could work with Rakkhat's?

Because it seems to me like the reason it's not working is because the heavy attack on Overload isn't really a "traditional" heavy attack, as it becomes a channeled cone in front of you that doesn't have a "tick tick Final Tick" mechanic. So there could be something on the backend that makes it not function quite like a normal heavy attack, and thus it causes friction with things that buff heavy attacks specifically.

So what if Overload's heavy attack were to be changed to be a lightning beam, similar to the heavy attack Lightning Destro Staves, but it does AoE damage on all ticks instead of only the final tick? That way it's still a great cleave tool, and might operate in a way where it doesn't clash with Rakkhat's.

This is of course assuming there is something on the backend that could make Overload not function with Rakkhat's anymore now that Rakkhat's bonus is getting fixed. And while wishful perhaps, I would prefer to assume that's the case unless @ZOS_Kevin could clarify otherwise.

I have to agree I think this would feel better to play with too. That first burst of overload feels nice but then that full second of holding a channeled attack with no damage coming out feels clunky.

Calibanana

Malyore wrote: »

Calibanana wrote: »

Raising this thread again, as I do have to wonder: Is there any way that Overload itself could be changed so that it could work with Rakkhat's?

Because it seems to me like the reason it's not working is because the heavy attack on Overload isn't really a "traditional" heavy attack, as it becomes a channeled cone in front of you that doesn't have a "tick tick Final Tick" mechanic. So there could be something on the backend that makes it not function quite like a normal heavy attack, and thus it causes friction with things that buff heavy attacks specifically.

So what if Overload's heavy attack were to be changed to be a lightning beam, similar to the heavy attack Lightning Destro Staves, but it does AoE damage on all ticks instead of only the final tick? That way it's still a great cleave tool, and might operate in a way where it doesn't clash with Rakkhat's.

This is of course assuming there is something on the backend that could make Overload not function with Rakkhat's anymore now that Rakkhat's bonus is getting fixed. And while wishful perhaps, I would prefer to assume that's the case unless @ZOS_Kevin could clarify otherwise.

I have to agree I think this would feel better to play with too. That first burst of overload feels nice but then that full second of holding a channeled attack with no damage coming out feels clunky.

Exactly. Look I won't lie, I've played Sorcerer since I started playing back in 2018, so I can say from experience that Overload definitely looks cool. And it feels awesome to just blast lightning in a cone. However, I do feel like the time has come to rework it.

Especially for people who are like me [see: lazy] and enjoy Heavy Attack builds, it just feels very awkward for your heavy attack to suddenly operate very differently. So I think making it a channeled lightning bolt that does AoE damage on every tick could be the best update for it. It would keep the same visual theming, while also still maintaining its use as a cleave tool by damaging everything around the target on each tick.

From there the morphs could probably be kept more-or-less the same in terms of function. Energy Overload is now restoring resources, and Power Overload just has a larger AoE radius on each tick.

Zyaneth_Bal

Can we get an update on Voidmantle as well as on Overload? Ever since the intention to nerf Voidmantle was announced there has been no information. And overload still doesn’t work with it too. @ZOS_Kevin

preevious

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

Can we get an update on Voidmantle as well as on Overload? Ever since the intention to nerf Voidmantle was announced there has been no information. And overload still doesn’t work with it too. @ZOS_Kevin

I suppose the lack of informations means that it's maintained and that the feedback was not followed.

Zyaneth_Bal

Personally, for me Overload+Rakkhat was the only silver lining in the huge mess that is u46 and multiclassing. And now the only new thing I found genuinely fun is being taken away too for no real reason. On top of the empty u47 patch notes. There is literally nothing to look forward to, no thrill, no motivation to play.

chadotter

I missed this change coming until the new update came out today. What's the point in Overload now? I did some testing and heavy attack does almost the same damage, but at further distance and without having to spend time toggling Overload on and off. And sure I can do something other than Rakkhet's Voidmantle, but that doesn't make sense for a heavy attack build and Overload doesn't make sense for anything that isn't a heavy attack build.

Combine this with the 8% magicka reduction from Bound Aegis and none of the Sorcerer skill lines are seeming as attractive.

YandereGirlfriend

chadotter wrote: »

I missed this change coming until the new update came out today. What's the point in Overload now? I did some testing and heavy attack does almost the same damage, but at further distance and without having to spend time toggling Overload on and off. And sure I can do something other than Rakkhet's Voidmantle, but that doesn't make sense for a heavy attack build and Overload doesn't make sense for anything that isn't a heavy attack build.

Combine this with the 8% magicka reduction from Bound Aegis and none of the Sorcerer skill lines are seeming as attractive.

Yeah, it's like they want to forever keep Overload as an obscure ganking tool and nothing more.

Like few other skills in the game, that skill feels like a time capsule from 2014 that time has simply passed by.