Why did we get a Mages Fury Nerf?

NxJoeyD

I get it, I really do … Stam Sorc is really the main Sorc (especially non pet) that matters and Sorcs aren’t an “execute class” per se …. So what are you telling us? We can’t actually have credit for kills?

I don’t expect Sorcs to be executioners but to some extent the personality of Sorcs really needs to be more then just “cheerleaders” …. Ok, yeah, you can deal damage and contribute to the team but you can’t have credit for kills shots?

It’s no wonder Sorcs (especially Mag Sorcs) lean on so many world abilities.

Cutting MF from a 4 second window to 2 seems “off” to me in real world gameplay; more so for PvP than PvE.

Sorcs (especially Mag Sorcs) are DoT heavy, this means that in team PvE content one has to rely on one of your dots or one of the few spammables we have to actually get a kill. In PvP it’s even worse because that’s much more burst based.

When one considers, especially in PvP, the high amount of burst self healing (even with Battle Spirit active) as well as the numerous sets or passives that kick in between the 50% health to 30% health mark that means wearing an opponent down to 20% to proc the MF bonus is already an uphill job and often does rely on team play in PvP. That’s fine, but to cut the classes main method of actually earning a kill shot is just bonkers.

For a lot of builds, kill shots contribute toward the sustain logic of the build and MF is a big part of that. The Siphoning Spells Fitness perk provides 1.5k Mag per opponent killed. Proper tanks that group adds allow good rotation with the previous MF to help deal damage, actually earn some of the kills and cop the Mag regen … now, we have half the duration in which to do that, plus, really an additional second if we account for GCD.

Same goes for CP enabled PvP.

If we want to talk about reducing the bonus damage or the radius that’s one thing but it seems like those complaining about MF and crying that it needed a nerf either weren’t paying attention to the self healing / mitigation factor that’s currently in PvP or simply want all the kill shots for themselves.

4 seconds was a very reasonable timeframe for the ability. The only way it’s any good now is in an zerg or ball group. So those of us who don’t play toxic strat ESO just lost one more toll out of the tool kit.

ZhuJiuyin

After the nerf, Mages' Fury even has a serious problem. Sometimes it will not hit the target correctly after casting the skill (that is, the animation appears, but no damage is caused), and when hitting a target with health below 20%, the execution effect will not be triggered, and only the first damage will jump out.

Oblivion_Protocol

I, for one, am glad to see the end of Sorcs spamming this ability from the middle of a zerg and piggybacking on the work of others to get the target into execute range, only for them to suddenly pop like a balloon. You can earn your kills like the rest of us.

Besides, Sorc is still one of the best burst classes in the game. It’s not like shortening the duration of one ability completely kills your offense.

NxJoeyD

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

After the nerf, Mages' Fury even has a serious problem. Sometimes it will not hit the target correctly after casting the skill (that is, the animation appears, but no damage is caused), and when hitting a target with health below 20%, the execution effect will not be triggered, and only the first damage will jump out.

That’s been a problem I’ve observed since before this update; seems it hasn’t gotten any better.

NxJoeyD

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

I, for one, am glad to see the end of Sorcs spamming this ability from the middle of a zerg and piggybacking on the work of others to get the target into execute range, only for them to suddenly pop like a balloon. You can earn your kills like the rest of us.

Besides, Sorc is still one of the best burst classes in the game. It’s not like shortening the duration of one ability completely kills your offense.

Any class spamming an ability from the middle of a Zerg tells us all that the issue is the Zerg, something we’ve all complained about in PvP.

It’s a big mistake to base whether or not abilities get nerfed simply because of Zerg abuse.

MF doesn’t scale and Sorcs aren’t a great burst class. The only real bursts we have, especially as a Mag build are Frags and I guess if you want to count it burst, Curse; but curse is more of a DoT due to the delay in both bursts giving opponents PLENTY of time to heal. Lots of Sorcs use the Destro line for bursts or lean on heavy attack crits; neither of those things are exclusive to Sorcs.

Reducing the bonus window on MF doesn’t kill our offense but it does kill our ability to earn the kill strike; again, this isn’t about Zerg spams; we can make the case for Zerg spams for nearly every class in this game. None of the other Sorc specific class abilities are good or geared toward “finishing off” an opponent except for, maybe, the bonus proc of Frags which is only a 33% chance.

Now you’re going to see MF MORE in Zergs because that’s the only time it’s going to be likely their opponent is going to get dinked below 20%. I’ve been testing the ability in PvP (BG & Cyrodill; not the IC yet), and in regular random dungeons. The post nerf effectiveness isn’t as bad in PvE but it’s noticeable; in PvP though, no; its effectiveness is moot and I’m seeing it evaporate from matches all together.

Besides, if you think Sorcs have some of the best burst damage in the game, how could they be riding on anyone else’s coat tails for kills? If that were true then they’d be the one carrying the damage output and the kill would be earned anyway.

WaywardArgonian

Because the skill could be used too effectively to steal kills in PVP without actually doing much damage. This was also acknowledged in the patch notes.

Radiate77

@NxJoeyD, while I agree 2 seconds is far too short for the skill…

Sorcerers do have the best burst combo in the game, and the reason you see most of them spamming Mages Fury in the back of a fight, is that while Sorcerer has the best burst, it also has to be timed well and perfectly lined up, all while being pressured. Most people can not do that.

Also; fun fact, Sorcerer got even better this update. Lightning Flood is now a self-activated synergy, meaning yet another 15k explosion mid-burst.

NxJoeyD

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

Because the skill could be used too effectively to steal kills in PVP without actually doing much damage. This was also acknowledged in the patch notes.

I read the patch notes but it seems like people are taking up a contradictory position when it comes to Sorcs & MF …. Either the class does really good burst damage and therefore isn’t “kill stealing” because they’re contributing significant damage to killing the opponent … OR … Sorcs don’t do great damage and they’re just camping in the back “stealing” kills with MF

It can only be one or the other but not both.

NxJoeyD

Radiate77 wrote: »

@NxJoeyD, while I agree 2 seconds is far too short for the skill…

Sorcerers do have the best burst combo in the game, and the reason you see most of them spamming Mages Fury in the back of a fight, is that while Sorcerer has the best burst, it also has to be timed well and perfectly lined up, all while being pressured. Most people can not do that.

Also; fun fact, Sorcerer got even better this update. Lightning Flood is now a self-activated synergy, meaning yet another 15k explosion mid-burst.

Ehh I’m on the ropes with this one. A good bit of Sorc damage required opponents to “step in stupid” which is way too avoidable in PvP. Unless someone is super green a lot of Sorc abilities are going to have limited damage effectiveness. Sorcs have a lot of utility, which is great, but in PvP we really (consistently) see Curse, Ward, & Streak and the occasional Frags, only on a bonus proc. Of those abilities only Frags is really a burst.

Most Sorcs lean on Destro Crushing Shock as their go to burst. Prior to this update I don’t see anyone using Lightning Flood; maybe since it’s now a self syn people will start to see some benefit but prior that was a dead skill.

Sorc isn’t bad but when we look at what other classes being to the table in terms of burst damage; they’re applying heavy damage plus significant buff / debuffs or solid CC, all in one ability. Sorcs can do that, but again, they require the opponent to step in the stupid.

That said; yeah, 2 seconds for MF is way too short. The patch notes billed MF as some kind of guaranteed execute which makes me wonder how they worked that out. Yeah, MF will get kills but there’s just as many builds out there that have SO much mitigation that even before the update they were mitigating the burst of MF and not actually dying; which makes sense since MF doesn’t scale.

Sorcs definitely do contribute damage toward the kills; enough so that when they do get a kill with MF it’s valid; they’re putting in some damage … but … without that ability window; their remaining class abilities fall short in being able to actually record the kill shot like other classes can.

WaywardArgonian

NxJoeyD wrote: »

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

Because the skill could be used too effectively to steal kills in PVP without actually doing much damage. This was also acknowledged in the patch notes.

I read the patch notes but it seems like people are taking up a contradictory position when it comes to Sorcs & MF …. Either the class does really good burst damage and therefore isn’t “kill stealing” because they’re contributing significant damage to killing the opponent … OR … Sorcs don’t do great damage and they’re just camping in the back “stealing” kills with MF

It can only be one or the other but not both.

It can in fact be both.

Magsorcs are able to set up a high delayed burst and they were widely considered the strongest class in PVP the previous patch. You can watch videos by players like Malcolm who do this all the time. The thing is that actually skilled players like that do not even use Mages' Wrath as their burst damage is high enough to not need it.

Then you have Mages' Wrath, which you can just put on any target that is being attacked, and you just wait until you get the kill without doing any more work for it since it's the only execute skill with a delay. The previous patch I've gone 20-0 in Battleground matches where I did maybe 200k damage total.

So the point is Magsorcs did great damage, but didn't need to actually do so in order to rack up a lot of kills if they just spammed Mages' Wrath. Everyone who's played the class even casually should know this. The previous patch they were the best PVP class for solo play and for group healing, so they didn't need a cheap skill that all but guarantees killing blows on top of that.

All of this is not even relevant now anyway as we have subclassing, so whatever burst you feel you lack you can just add to your kit.

Four_Fingers

Because everyone was going to subclass wrath as meta that's why.

NxJoeyD

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

Because the skill could be used too effectively to steal kills in PVP without actually doing much damage. This was also acknowledged in the patch notes.

I read the patch notes but it seems like people are taking up a contradictory position when it comes to Sorcs & MF …. Either the class does really good burst damage and therefore isn’t “kill stealing” because they’re contributing significant damage to killing the opponent … OR … Sorcs don’t do great damage and they’re just camping in the back “stealing” kills with MF

It can only be one or the other but not both.

It can in fact be both.

Magsorcs are able to set up a high delayed burst and they were widely considered the strongest class in PVP the previous patch. You can watch videos by players like Malcolm who do this all the time. The thing is that actually skilled players like that do not even use Mages' Wrath as their burst damage is high enough to not need it.

Then you have Mages' Wrath, which you can just put on any target that is being attacked, and you just wait until you get the kill without doing any more work for it since it's the only execute skill with a delay. The previous patch I've gone 20-0 in Battleground matches where I did maybe 200k damage total.

So the point is Magsorcs did great damage, but didn't need to actually do so in order to rack up a lot of kills if they just spammed Mages' Wrath. Everyone who's played the class even casually should know this. The previous patch they were the best PVP class for solo play and for group healing, so they didn't need a cheap skill that all but guarantees killing blows on top of that.

All of this is not even relevant now anyway as we have subclassing, so whatever burst you feel you lack you can just add to your kit.

No it can’t. If Sorcs do high damage then the kill they received via MF was justified and not a no-skill steal.

The reason Sorcs used MF / MW is because even their heaviest burst, Curse, has such a delay that it’s too easy to mitigate or self heal through. Sorcs aren’t going to get a kill shot with Curse, that’s where MF comes in; unlike skills that scale it at least gave Sorcs a source of burst that could actually finish off a target.

Saying that MagSorcs can do great damage but just choose not to so they could spam MF makes no sense and tbh I don’t ever see that happening.

What I do see happening are Mag Sorcs leaning on heavy attack / crit based setups as the bulk of their damage with the rotation of skills I mentioned earlier. This is why you’d see them “sitting back” so to speak. Any tutorial for Mag Sorc build you see out there; even from the most referenced sources all promote heavy attack / crit as the base of the build; that’s pretty much the “go to” for Mag Sorc right now.

Personally I don’t believe Sorc was the top PvP class at all, that honor goes to NB and most would agree. Sorcs are now out here running & spamming Merciless Resolve for WAY more damage than Mages Wrath was putting out.

As for MF, no, it was never a guaranteed kill. Even properly timed, you have so much self healing AND mitigation in PvP that even though MF does earn kills it’s not a catch all; it’s not an execute skill, it does not scale which means unlike proper execute abilities MF is easier to mitigate.

NxJoeyD

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Because everyone was going to subclass wrath as meta that's why.

They’d be better off to use an ability that actually scales and deals more damage than Mages Fury.

People should remember that MF is only going to even tool tip descent damage if the build is heavily Mag based; this skill doesn’t have a Stam morph. So for the lions share of PvP, slotting this skill as their execute wouldn’t be the best option.

Four_Fingers

NVM

WaywardArgonian

NxJoeyD wrote: »

No it can’t. If Sorcs do high damage then the kill they received via MF was justified and not a no-skill steal.

Sorcs have high damage (which takes skill to pull off) but were able to bypass all of that by just spamming one skill on players to guarantee kills (which takes no skill to pull off) if that's all they cared about. And yes, that happened all the time, whether you were personally there to witness that or not.

The reason Sorcs used MF / MW is because even their heaviest burst, Curse, has such a delay that it’s too easy to mitigate or self heal through. Sorcs aren’t going to get a kill shot with Curse, that’s where MF comes in; unlike skills that scale it at least gave Sorcs a source of burst that could actually finish off a target.

Too easy to mitigate or self-heal through? If only Sorcs had an unblockable stun that prevents exactly that from happening.

NxJoeyD

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

No it can’t. If Sorcs do high damage then the kill they received via MF was justified and not a no-skill steal.

Sorcs have high damage (which takes skill to pull off) but were able to bypass all of that by just spamming one skill on players to guarantee kills (which takes no skill to pull off) if that's all they cared about. And yes, that happened all the time, whether you were personally there to witness that or not.

The reason Sorcs used MF / MW is because even their heaviest burst, Curse, has such a delay that it’s too easy to mitigate or self heal through. Sorcs aren’t going to get a kill shot with Curse, that’s where MF comes in; unlike skills that scale it at least gave Sorcs a source of burst that could actually finish off a target.

Too easy to mitigate or self-heal through? If only Sorcs had an unblockable stun that prevents exactly that from happening.

I don’t see how just spamming Mages Wrath makes any sense nor have I seen any evidence of this. MF / MW does minuscule base damage and doesn’t provide a bonus until the target is below 20% health! How is anyone going to hen peck an opponent in PvP down to 20% health on base Mages Fury damage? The answer is, they’re not. The numbers just don’t add up.

Compare MF to, say, Radiant which not only has a much higher base damage but also scales by a factor of 5 and start to take effect between 30% to 40%, way before MF does.

I’ve seen a lot of Sorc play in PvP and while there’s some flexibility there’s a base consistency that we see in PvP: heavy attack, crushing shock, curse, fury, & streak. That’s the meat & potatoes of Sorc.

As for Streak, that doesn’t affect mitigation. Mitigation is passive and applied whether the player is CC’d or not. As for self healing, some is passive (set procs) and some are easy enough to pull off even with the stun because, again, MF doesn’t provide a bonus until the target hits 20% and everyone in PvP has some form of sustain.

Plus, let’s be honest; it’s not as though Sorc has some insane crazy CC with steak wither; Templar spear does damage and provides an unblockable knockback which is a form of CC; plus its damage bypassed resistance AND since it’s a remote affect the Templar can more easily follow up whereas Streak requires the Sorc to put themselves near their opponent.

Mages Fury was never broken, its bonus trigger is lower than any of the execute abilities, its bonus damage is lower, and it’s not even really an execute, it doesn’t scale.

If anyone is going to take the position that a Sorc might just sit back and spam nothing but mages wrath; then we also have to say that Templars can just sit back and spam Radiant or Wardend spamming Guardian or NB’s spamming Blades.

Mages Fury is by far the weakest of the execute-ish abilities even before the nerf.