When people get proven they're correct....

JustLovely · June 14

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/679081/im-disappointed-with-the-game-overall-and-the-direction-it-is-being-taken#latest

I logged onto the forum for the first time in a long time just to reply to the linked to thread above.

I couldn't agree more with their post. And what happened in that thread proves everything the OP had to say to be 100% accurate.

I'm not quitting. This isn't a quitting thread. I'm just not paying anymore. The nearly $5,000 ZOS has gotten out of me already is too much considering the level of respect ZOS shows it's customer base. ....as proven by what happened in the thread linked to above.

How do the rest of you feel about the direction of the game?

The OP linked to above started playing at the peak of ESO's excellence. Problem is it's been a horribly steep downhill trend since U35 and now with U46 it feels like the game has fallen off a cliff in terms of support in regards to both the game and the customers. It's really sad considering how much potential ESO still has if ZOS would just take advantage of it.

This is feedback and should be allowed. The smartest most successful people and companies are the ones that learn from their mistakes and make adjustments accordingly. The ones that ignore polite criticisms tend to be the least popular and least successful.

And by the way, vengeance mode will be the end of PvP in ESO if ZOS forces that on us as the only option.

Artim_X · June 15

TLDR incoming 😅

Everyone is entitled to their opinions and feedback is always good especially if constructive.

I quit the game during the beta, since imo the game just wasn't worth playing, but after one Tamriel I came back and never left.

The thing that keeps me here is the constant quality of life that gets introduced over time.

The introduction of housing was a godsend for me and provided something worthwhile to spend my gold on, dueling was a cool addition, having weapons like staves count as two set pieces was a game changer, transmutation almost erased the grind and was a true blessing for build craft, Battlegrounds gave me immediate PvP dopamine without having to wait for action at a keep/outpost, companions are a nice addition to keep the world lively, mythic items/antiquities was also a game changer that helped spice up build craft, tales of tribute was an interesting add even if it's not my cup of tea, the sticker book helped ease the grind by putting a set limit of runs needed to farm an item, the infinite archive is a vibe for peeps like me that like random PvE shenanigans, the armory station helps add variety to build craft without the need for addons and spending gold/time to respec, scribing helped round out missing aspects of my build, housing tours is a great addition (EHT vibes FTW!), subclassing alleviates the need for me to play my alts (have ten builds saved in my armory station 😅), and the furnishing vault is a godsend for a furniture hoarder like me.

All that being said... removing 3 team Battlegrounds (rip storm lords) and advertising the 4v4 and 12v12 as new PvP content is beyond words that I will not say on this forum. Three teams gives the power to change the tide of events. Two teams means that there is a chance to be on a demoralized team that refuses to fight when a loss is on the horizon.

I love variety as much as the next guy, but ZOS needs to use battlespirit and alt effects on sets/skills more to nerf things for the sake of PvP without making PvE feel rubbish. The tank meta needs to be addressed, it just not fun. I honestly rather play the dot meta where people melted without purge/heals.

Vengeance is an interesting idea, but it gets boring real quick since there are no hero or villains whoose build craft can change the tide of battle, just zerg x zerg to see which is big enough to make the difference.

Vengeance can be its own thing, but I still rather play with variety options. Please do not kill Cyrodiil completely like 3 team battlegrounds.

I love housing, but houses with extreme size interior and exteriors are not feasible to fully decorate even with full 700 slots. Honestly making it 1000 straight would make a crazy difference in the houses you see in the housing tours and less peeps will feel the need to close off areas to make a home feel full.

The season pass nonsense is annoying TBH. It devalues ESO plus by forcing players to buy the dungeons, which also means it is priced higher than normal. My girlfriend asked if she should get the season pass and I told her to just wait till next year. This game already makes a killing from the gacha boxes (rip cool items just being sold straight for crowns). Yes, sometimes cool things are for crowns, but still, the best stuff is in the crates.

Speaking of crates... would it kill ZOS' bottom line to have more crates as daily reward freebies or twitch view freebies (actual crates, not the meh twitch crates)? Could have some crates at the beginning of the month and crates at the end of the month to incentivise logging in. Also, with crates, the grind is rough, like why am I getting generic bowl furnishing that can be found in the game... Like seriously, stop inflating crates with nonsense to make the rng worse than it should be. Honestly just get rid of crates and sell things straight would be my preferred choice, but if they're here to stay make them less annoying for peeps who aren't spewing salty whale goo at the Khajiit who by the way I love the concept in an unhinged this is messed up sort of way of a Khajiit that literally tells you to buy more crates lmfao.

Endeavors are a nice forced inclusion to not be forced to remove crates as a feature. Wouldn't it be lovely if endeavors were boosted a bit more in value so that it wouldn't take an age to earn enough to get the shiny goodies.

More PTS communication might be nice, even just more acknowledgment that feedback is being read or straight up saying we want to see what happens live before making significant adjustments.

I haven't played through the new zone yet, but I'm hoping it is grounded in fantasy concepts. Reality is just a rubbish game and I rather not deal with concepts that don't gel with the established lore of the Elder Scrolls. Yes, new lore can be created, yes things can get political like in Orsinium/High Isle, but keep things grounded in this world and this fantasy. Ex: Tanlorin could be fine, but more emphasis on the logic of her issues of being a Hulkynd (established in game fantasy concept) would help her be more palpable as something logical in a world where people drink potions to change their race or an argonian that literally becomes a crocodile (both things happen in game, but they imo felt like a natural part of the fantasy world). Writing her plot without focusing on her being a Hulkynd makes the story seem more about modern day issues that are not logical to a world where this is not an issue. Also her hairstyle is rubbish. Let me change my companions hairstyles and let me cover their beautiful mugs with head gear.

I understand the forums is a small subset of the user base and is not representative of the entire ESO community, but the peeps willing to pop on here to provide feedback are just trying to help the world they like to visit a better overall experience. Some ideas are absolutely rubbish and I have to hold my tongue to not get a forum warning, but often times people are cooking up a storm of ideas that are worth paying attention to.

TLDR I know 😆

moderatelyfatman · June 15

The QoL changes over the last few years have been fantastic.
New dungeon designs have been some of the best in any game. New Trials have been pretty damn good too.
But the latest 'Season' feels like a company trying to squeeze out the last bit of money from a product the higher ups no longer care about.

kevkj · June 15

I am so glad that my beloved forum is protected from sincere paragraphs of feedback because there was a single "adios" at the end.

Udrath · June 15

I’ve unsubscribed and not really enjoying ESO anymore for the PvP since they have given up on balancing it. Classes used to feel good. Like back in the day I could 1v20 a bunch of ranged classes on stamdk because of wings, but one good melee could come up and kill me. Back then it felt like each class had strengths and weaknesses, but now pvp just isn’t that fun because there are no significant abilities like that between each class archetype (stamina/magicka), and eventually classes will end up all playing the same in time with subclassing.

Turtle_Bot · June 15

Udrath wrote: »

I’ve unsubscribed and not really enjoying ESO anymore for the PvP since they have given up on balancing it. Classes used to feel good. Like back in the day I could 1v20 a bunch of ranged classes on stamdk because of wings, but one good melee could come up and kill me. Back then it felt like each class had strengths and weaknesses, but now pvp just isn’t that fun because there are no significant abilities like that between each class archetype (stamina/magicka), and eventually classes will end up all playing the same in time with subclassing.

I also miss the old rock/paper/scissors meta from ages ago.

- Sorc was a highly mobile class that when played properly was almost impossible to catch out. It was naturally good against plar, mixed into DK and bad into NB that could close the gap undetected to burst sorc before sorc could escape.
- NB was the stealth class, able to close the gap and burst targets (especially sorcs), but struggled to burst DK down and only really burst plars that were truly caught out.
DK was a highly tanky, high DoT pressure brawler that could shrug off hits but struggled to chase other classes, this made it good into NB, ok into sorc (wings shrugged off sorc, but DK couldn't catch sorc) but struggled into plar with plars cleanse and heals.
Plar was an insane healer, but struggled into burst, making it good into DK, ok into NB since the natural bulk made it harder to outright burst and bad into sorc that had ranged burst that plar struggled against.

Each class had strengths and weaknesses and were all soft counters, but also weak to some of the other classes (NB countered sorc, sorc countered plar, plar countered DK and DK countered NB). Then the strengths began to be removed (or just given to everyone as generic options) and the classes just individually fell off over time.

Everyone got so much free baseline speed that sorc could no longer rely on mobility as its defense, hence crazy adjustments were needed to make it viable (multi-proc stacking or things like hardened ward buff).
Wings got removed so DK struggled into Sorc or general range builds since it struggled to catch up but also had nothing to help mitigate ranged damage.
Everyone got massive heals and a few generic cleanse options so plar no longer felt unique, then things like evasion buff and jabs rework killed plars offence outside of the niche ranged setups.

The only thing that remained for ages was NB having stealth. Yes stage 4 vamp sprint was introduced, and there are invis pots available, but those still cannot compare to the instantaneous/on-demand invis that NB had/has. Stealth has recently been reworked (buffs to some use cases, nerfs to other use cases), but the difference between NB and the other 3 base classes was that NB received a complete class overhaul/upgrade long before its unique mechanic was altered, so the class never fell off.

DK, Plar and Sorc (and yes, Warden, Cro and Arc too) really do need the NB treatment of a complete rework/overhaul/update of their entire class kits and a member of the dev team that is dedicated solely to that specific class like there is for NB.

Plar is sort of getting it this patch with the buffs to restoring light and aedric spear lines, but it remains to be seen if those buffs last or just get removed in time, just like what happened with sorc getting buffed in U41, then all of those buffs reverted this patch alongside the existing nerfs done since U41 to "balance" the buff to hardened ward.
DK got a rework around U30, but subsequent nerfs and the lack of any continued attention given to DK has seen it too fall off outside of pyrebrand cheese builds.

Unfortunately, the other classes (and this also includes the 3 DLC classes) suffer from a complete lack of permanent representation within the ZOS dev team that NB has, so unlike NB, there's no-one on the team to continuously push new ideas or advocate for needed adjustments to the other classes like there is for NB.

We can see the proof of this from every single patch note over the past 5 years. NB has received continuous buffs and attention given to it in every single patch, while the other classes might get something for a patch or 2, before it's either removed or simply left forgotten for another class to get any remaining attention not being devoted to NB.

MasterSpatula · June 15

It's particularly ironic how he literally called out the forum moderators for behavior that they then unashamedly engaged in on the thread.

Pixiepumpkin · June 15

doabhi wrote:

I've only been playing this game for perhaps 6-7 years, so I can't claim the old 'been here since beta' like some people can - However: I feel like I've been here at least long enough to see a negative trend creep in.

This is not the first time I've taken a step back from the game mind, I did so a few years ago, but this time feels different. This time I feel disenfranchised with the game and genuinely unhappy with the direction it is going in. The game isn't bringing me joy anymore - it started to feel like a job, like I come here to meet some obligations and then log off - this is not what a game should be.

I feel exactly the same. I log in, do "dailies", do endeavors, fart around a bit trying to find something fun to do. ESO often feels like a chore, not a fun engagement.

doabhi wrote:

I've felt like the community is growing increasingly toxic, I've also felt that Toxicity in myself while playing, and I don't like it.

I would say that certain cultures in the game are becoming more brazen and toxic and if I say anything about it, I get into trouble.
I can't say that I am feeling increasingly more toxic, not in an aggressive way, maybe in a defensice way.

doabhi wrote:

Developers want forum feedback, but there is a non-zero number of forum moderators who seem eager to over-stretch their bounds, or bend the definition of the rules if you will and quash any form of negative feedback under the guise of bashing or circumvention. It only creates an echo chamber of disinformation, frustrates and alienates the community. IMHO, all feedback, good and bad should be presented through official channels like a bug or issue tracker such as Jira - where information can be properly gathered and collated without every thread turning in to an open debate and where valid and critical information doesn't get lost among the noise of public discourse.

I could explain why this is done, but what you just described would happen to my post. Kinda funny in a way, but not really.

doabhi wrote:

The recent shift from yearly DLC to base game content felt like a step in the right direction when it was first announced, the promise of bug fixes, QOL improvements etc. - However, the reality that came to pass has been anything but in my opinion. This was the final nail in the coffin for me: -

Ya, I am not excited about this new direction which is seemingly more superficial and less about substance.

doabhi wrote:

I'm not going to shell out near full AAA game prices for a yearly DLC with a 'content pass' sticker slapped haphazardly over the front of the box - this is an especially large slap in the face given what was promised, It makes the ESO plus subscription feel worthless. I'm paying you in the region of 119,88 a year on a monthly basis, and you have the audacity to tell me this DLC sized 'Season Pass' at full game price is good value when previous 'DLC' expansions cost less? Sorry but no. that's a step too far ZOS. Drop the 'Season pass' gimmick and just call it a Base game expansion and return the original pricing.

My family did get this "season pass", but unless I see content coming out that is new, fresh, exciting, on par with the Elsweyr chapter or Orsinium or Skyrim in the future, I don't think we will either. Too many games coming out or making changes (wow has housing coming at the end of the year) that are either the same money or less that are offering more substance.

doabhi wrote:

Needless to say, I've cancelled my plus membership as of today. I won't be forking over close to 50 bucks for a 'DLC', especially with how broken and rushed I feel this update has been.
Subclassing turned out to be a massive disappointment for me. So many OP options that i feel really destroy the balance of the game in some areas/game modes, Some skills were also broken and uncovered to be so in the PTS, however due to the nature of the 'feedback' process here, this vital information slipped through the cracks and made it in to live.

I hate the idea of subclassing, have been very vocal about it. But I gave it a solid try. Leveled 12 skill lines up to 50, made some hard hitting builds...but now all my characters feel empty, souless, no different than any other character in game or worse no better than alts who can achieve the same results with the same tired new meta.
Subclassing has absolutely destroyed any of the soul left in classes. I no longer feel connected to the word through my avatars, they are no longer unique and it's driving me increasingly away from the game. For the first time in months, I don't have any excitment to log in. I don't think about what I will be doing tomorrow in ESO when I head to bed. Wifes sub just renewed, mine renews in about 2 weeks. Gonna see how I feel then, but as she is feeling similar to me, we may both cancel ESO+ and put the money towards a different game.

doabhi wrote:

Perhaps I'm writing this here this time in some vague hope that maybe things will come back around in the future, maybe someone at ZOS with the power to influence the direction things are going to read this and take it on board that as of right now, promises are being broken, faith is being eroded and the passion and enjoyment is being lost and look to do better - But given how things have been over the last 3 or so years, I'm not holding my breath on this one.

Me neither.

Based on the current paltry offerings, based on ZOS working on a new MMO (I imagine all their talent is working on that project right now, ESO feels like is on the back burner) my family sees no reason to fund this project anymore. We may still log in and play, but no more DLC, ESO+, crowns, or "content pass" going forward. Unless I see commitment from ZOS with hard core investment into ESO, I can not justify myself nor my family investing anymore into ESO.

Gabriel_H · June 15

Udrath wrote: »

I’ve unsubscribed and not really enjoying ESO anymore for the PvP since they have given up on balancing it.

Udrath wrote: »

Like back in the day I could 1v20 a bunch of ranged classes on stamdk because of wings

...

ADarklore · June 15

All of these "I unsubscribed" posts... and then wonder why ZOS leans towards it's most profitable players... solo/casual players who enjoy housing and buying things from the store, than endgame or PvP.

ZOS said years ago that ESO+ doesn't pay the bills, hence the emphasis on the crown store and other money-making ventures that people say are 'money grabs'. ZOS is a 'for profit' company that needs to continuously make money to justify further development of the game. So if endgame and PvP players aren't spending money on the crown store, aren't buying houses or crates, then they aren't a profitable aspect of the game... and in fact, could be considered more of a drain on resources. You have to look at it from a business perspective... why would you continuously develop and add content specifically for groups that do not help your bottom line?

So next time someone posts about how THEY don't like the focus of the game, they need to ask themselves how much they've spent in the store the past year, and the previous years? Because that's exactly what ZOS is looking at, from a business perspective.

amiiegee · June 15

ADarklore wrote: »

All of these "I unsubscribed" posts... and then wonder why ZOS leans towards it's most profitable players... solo/casual players who enjoy housing and buying things from the store, than endgame or PvP.

ZOS said years ago that ESO+ doesn't pay the bills, hence the emphasis on the crown store and other money-making ventures that people say are 'money grabs'. ZOS is a 'for profit' company that needs to continuously make money to justify further development of the game. So if endgame and PvP players aren't spending money on the crown store, aren't buying houses or crates, then they aren't a profitable aspect of the game... and in fact, could be considered more of a drain on resources. You have to look at it from a business perspective... why would you continuously develop and add content specifically for groups that do not help your bottom line?

So next time someone posts about how THEY don't like the focus of the game, they need to ask themselves how much they've spent in the store the past year, and the previous years? Because that's exactly what ZOS is looking at, from a business perspective.

If zos wants us to spend money on something, maybe they should start developing something being worth to spend money on?

Instead of making stuff worse and make people unsubscribe lmao

Pixiepumpkin · June 15

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Udrath wrote: »

I’ve unsubscribed and not really enjoying ESO anymore for the PvP since they have given up on balancing it.

Udrath wrote: »

Like back in the day I could 1v20 a bunch of ranged classes on stamdk because of wings

...

LOL..you once again cherry pick a post and misquote them. This is literally called propaganda as in you are twisting what is being said by your inference of hypocrisy by the author you quoted.

This is the actual quote by @Udrath. I have bolded the imporant part you left out.

Udrath wrote: »

I’ve unsubscribed and not really enjoying ESO anymore for the PvP since they have given up on balancing it. Classes used to feel good. Like back in the day I could 1v20 a bunch of ranged classes on stamdk because of wings, but one good melee could come up and kill me. Back then it felt like each class had strengths and weaknesses, but now pvp just isn’t that fun because there are no significant abilities like that between each class archetype (stamina/magicka), and eventually classes will end up all playing the same in time with subclassing.

Heren · June 15

ADarklore wrote: »

So next time someone posts about how THEY don't like the focus of the game, they need to ask themselves how much they've spent in the store the past year, and the previous years? Because that's exactly what ZOS is looking at, from a business perspective.

You're shifting responsabilities in an odd way. Is a game is not interesting for you, if the future of a game don't seems interesting for you, why in oblivion would you invest in it ? Because they need money ? Everyone does, and guess what, there might be other games around that might be more attracting to you - and they also want your money. So why would you support a game that don't meet your expectations, that don't seems to be meeting your expectations in the future, rather than support another game that actualy do ?

Also, you hint that maybe players should put more money in the store, even if it's a part of the game that they are not interesting in, to support the game - "because that's exactly what ZOS is looking at, from a business perspective." Oh sure, and after looking at that, they will say 'hey, people are spending money in the store, we should really put more ressources in the pvp !'.

Or maybe they will just say 'store are paying bills, let's develop the store and then see how much we have to also develop other areas of the game'.

In the end, I agree that if you like the game and have trust in it's future, it's a good move to support it. But if you don't, it's the game responsability to eventualy change things in order to re-attract you. Going the other way around is just foolish.

Gabriel_H · June 15

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Udrath wrote: »

I’ve unsubscribed and not really enjoying ESO anymore for the PvP since they have given up on balancing it.

Udrath wrote: »

Like back in the day I could 1v20 a bunch of ranged classes on stamdk because of wings

...

LOL..you once again cherry pick a post and misquote them. This is literally called propaganda as in you are twisting what is being said by your inference of hypocrisy by the author you quoted.

This is the actual quote by @Udrath. I have bolded the imporant part you left out.

Udrath wrote: »

I’ve unsubscribed and not really enjoying ESO anymore for the PvP since they have given up on balancing it. Classes used to feel good. Like back in the day I could 1v20 a bunch of ranged classes on stamdk because of wings, but one good melee could come up and kill me. Back then it felt like each class had strengths and weaknesses, but now pvp just isn’t that fun because there are no significant abilities like that between each class archetype (stamina/magicka), and eventually classes will end up all playing the same in time with subclassing.

The bit you've bolded is irrelevent. Losing in 1 v1 is not imbalace, winning in 1 v 20 IS.

Pixiepumpkin · June 15

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Udrath wrote: »

I’ve unsubscribed and not really enjoying ESO anymore for the PvP since they have given up on balancing it.

Udrath wrote: »

Like back in the day I could 1v20 a bunch of ranged classes on stamdk because of wings

...

LOL..you once again cherry pick a post and misquote them. This is literally called propaganda as in you are twisting what is being said by your inference of hypocrisy by the author you quoted.

This is the actual quote by @Udrath. I have bolded the imporant part you left out.

Udrath wrote: »

I’ve unsubscribed and not really enjoying ESO anymore for the PvP since they have given up on balancing it. Classes used to feel good. Like back in the day I could 1v20 a bunch of ranged classes on stamdk because of wings, but one good melee could come up and kill me. Back then it felt like each class had strengths and weaknesses, but now pvp just isn’t that fun because there are no significant abilities like that between each class archetype (stamina/magicka), and eventually classes will end up all playing the same in time with subclassing.

The bit you've bolded is irrelevent. Losing in 1 v1 is not imbalace, winning in 1 v 20 IS.

Incorrect
The OP clearly stated the balance in the scenario, which you left out and which I bolded. By your logic, this game has NEVER been balanced, not even remotely because 1vX has been a thing forever.

Sylosi · June 15

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Udrath wrote: »

I’ve unsubscribed and not really enjoying ESO anymore for the PvP since they have given up on balancing it.

Udrath wrote: »

Like back in the day I could 1v20 a bunch of ranged classes on stamdk because of wings

...

LOL..you once again cherry pick a post and misquote them. This is literally called propaganda as in you are twisting what is being said by your inference of hypocrisy by the author you quoted.

This is the actual quote by @Udrath. I have bolded the imporant part you left out.

Udrath wrote: »

I’ve unsubscribed and not really enjoying ESO anymore for the PvP since they have given up on balancing it. Classes used to feel good. Like back in the day I could 1v20 a bunch of ranged classes on stamdk because of wings, but one good melee could come up and kill me. Back then it felt like each class had strengths and weaknesses, but now pvp just isn’t that fun because there are no significant abilities like that between each class archetype (stamina/magicka), and eventually classes will end up all playing the same in time with subclassing.

It is still laughable even with the full quote for two reasons.

Firstly hard-counters in a supposed "skilled" action combat game are terrible design, entirely contrary to the notion of skilled action combat, may as well go play a card game if I want hard counters. What you want is soft counters, where classes / builds have advantages / weaknesses, but where those advantages / weakness can still be overcome by playing well or get punished for playing badly.

Second his comparison is massively lop sided, he stands 1v20 spamming his hard counter, but that is supposed to be offset because one good melee might kill him, in what reality is that "balanced". It still comes across as someone who was fine when "balance" was heavily in his favour, but doesn't like it now he can't 1 v 20 crutching on a broken hard counter.

PvP balance was always trash in this game, which is precisely why if you played earlier in the game there were DKs everywhere, immune to ranged builds, yet still silly strong in melee. Or why Sorcs / NBs were so common for so many years in this game, because aside from them actually being very strong in terms of combat much of the time, they both broke risk vs reward by being able to easily disengage if they were losing (so zero balance breaking the most fundamental rule of PvP design - risk vs reward). Again players flock to the busted stuff this game has always had, the only good balance this game has ever had is the balance some see through their rose-tinted spectacles.

Which of course is one of the reasons PvP has been so unsuccessful in this game, even by the low standard of MMORPGs.

Pixiepumpkin · June 15

Sylosi wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Udrath wrote: »

I’ve unsubscribed and not really enjoying ESO anymore for the PvP since they have given up on balancing it.

Udrath wrote: »

Like back in the day I could 1v20 a bunch of ranged classes on stamdk because of wings

...

LOL..you once again cherry pick a post and misquote them. This is literally called propaganda as in you are twisting what is being said by your inference of hypocrisy by the author you quoted.

This is the actual quote by @Udrath. I have bolded the imporant part you left out.

Udrath wrote: »

I’ve unsubscribed and not really enjoying ESO anymore for the PvP since they have given up on balancing it. Classes used to feel good. Like back in the day I could 1v20 a bunch of ranged classes on stamdk because of wings, but one good melee could come up and kill me. Back then it felt like each class had strengths and weaknesses, but now pvp just isn’t that fun because there are no significant abilities like that between each class archetype (stamina/magicka), and eventually classes will end up all playing the same in time with subclassing.

It is still laughable even with the full quote for two reasons.

Firstly hard-counters in a supposed "skilled" action combat game are terrible design, entirely contrary to the notion of skilled action combat, may as well go play a card game if I want hard counters. What you want is soft counters, where classes / builds have advantages / weaknesses, but where those advantages / weakness can still be overcome by playing well or get punished for playing badly.

Second his comparison is massively lop sided, he stands 1v20 spamming his hard counter, but that is supposed to be offset because one good melee might kill him, in what reality is that "balanced". It still comes across as someone who was fine when "balance" was heavily in his favour, but doesn't like it now he can't 1 v 20 crutching on a broken hard counter.

PvP balance was always trash in this game, which is precisely why if you played early in the game there were DKs everywhere, immune to ranged builds, yet still silly strong in melee. Or why Sorcs / NBs were so common for so many years in this game, because aside from them actually being very strong in terms of combat much of the time they both broke risk vs reward by being able to easily disengage if they were losing (so zero balance breaking the most fundamental rule of PvP design - risk vs reward). Again players flock to the busted stuff this game has always had, the only good balance this game has ever had is the balance some see through their rose-tinted spectacles.

Which of course is one of the reasons PvP has been so unsuccessful in this game, even by the low standard of MMORPGs.

1. You are not arguing the same points I am. I am not arguing balance, I am pointing out that the OP's argument was taken out of context. Which it was.
2. Reread point number 1.

Sylosi · June 15

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Sylosi wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Udrath wrote: »

I’ve unsubscribed and not really enjoying ESO anymore for the PvP since they have given up on balancing it.

Udrath wrote: »

Like back in the day I could 1v20 a bunch of ranged classes on stamdk because of wings

...

LOL..you once again cherry pick a post and misquote them. This is literally called propaganda as in you are twisting what is being said by your inference of hypocrisy by the author you quoted.

This is the actual quote by @Udrath. I have bolded the imporant part you left out.

Udrath wrote: »

I’ve unsubscribed and not really enjoying ESO anymore for the PvP since they have given up on balancing it. Classes used to feel good. Like back in the day I could 1v20 a bunch of ranged classes on stamdk because of wings, but one good melee could come up and kill me. Back then it felt like each class had strengths and weaknesses, but now pvp just isn’t that fun because there are no significant abilities like that between each class archetype (stamina/magicka), and eventually classes will end up all playing the same in time with subclassing.

It is still laughable even with the full quote for two reasons.

Firstly hard-counters in a supposed "skilled" action combat game are terrible design, entirely contrary to the notion of skilled action combat, may as well go play a card game if I want hard counters. What you want is soft counters, where classes / builds have advantages / weaknesses, but where those advantages / weakness can still be overcome by playing well or get punished for playing badly.

Second his comparison is massively lop sided, he stands 1v20 spamming his hard counter, but that is supposed to be offset because one good melee might kill him, in what reality is that "balanced". It still comes across as someone who was fine when "balance" was heavily in his favour, but doesn't like it now he can't 1 v 20 crutching on a broken hard counter.

PvP balance was always trash in this game, which is precisely why if you played early in the game there were DKs everywhere, immune to ranged builds, yet still silly strong in melee. Or why Sorcs / NBs were so common for so many years in this game, because aside from them actually being very strong in terms of combat much of the time they both broke risk vs reward by being able to easily disengage if they were losing (so zero balance breaking the most fundamental rule of PvP design - risk vs reward). Again players flock to the busted stuff this game has always had, the only good balance this game has ever had is the balance some see through their rose-tinted spectacles.

Which of course is one of the reasons PvP has been so unsuccessful in this game, even by the low standard of MMORPGs.

1. You are not arguing the same points I am. I am not arguing balance, I am pointing out that the OP's argument was taken out of context. Which it was.
2. Reread point number 1.

Wrong.

I didn't argue it wasn't taken out of context, I argued it was still ridiculous even in context with the full quote and thus the context made no difference. Which is why I wrote - "It is still laughable even with the full quote for two reasons.".

Furthermore you are arguing about balance, because the context, the part you bolded is about balance, with the implication that it somehow negates the part the other poster "cherry picked", when of course it does no such thing, because even with that "context" it is still laughably imbalanced.

Rungar · June 15

this game is a business and has obviously been run as a business, not a labor of love. That being said ive always though that zos's combat and dungeon/trial design has always been a major disconnect for the majority of its skyrim casual player base. Not just this game either. All the mmos are stuck in the same rut.

zos would just make it easier because thats the road of lowest effort but mmos are stagnant because they have not been able to successfully improve the gameplay to a point where its actually favorable to be in the company of other people. Thus the modern trend of soloing in mmos, defeating the purpose of its own existence. People are tired of people. These games need to do alot more to make that go the other way.

their new mmo will suffer the same fate if they do the same things.

Pixiepumpkin · June 15

Sylosi wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Sylosi wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Udrath wrote: »

I’ve unsubscribed and not really enjoying ESO anymore for the PvP since they have given up on balancing it.

Udrath wrote: »

Like back in the day I could 1v20 a bunch of ranged classes on stamdk because of wings

...

LOL..you once again cherry pick a post and misquote them. This is literally called propaganda as in you are twisting what is being said by your inference of hypocrisy by the author you quoted.

This is the actual quote by @Udrath. I have bolded the imporant part you left out.

Udrath wrote: »

I’ve unsubscribed and not really enjoying ESO anymore for the PvP since they have given up on balancing it. Classes used to feel good. Like back in the day I could 1v20 a bunch of ranged classes on stamdk because of wings, but one good melee could come up and kill me. Back then it felt like each class had strengths and weaknesses, but now pvp just isn’t that fun because there are no significant abilities like that between each class archetype (stamina/magicka), and eventually classes will end up all playing the same in time with subclassing.

It is still laughable even with the full quote for two reasons.

Firstly hard-counters in a supposed "skilled" action combat game are terrible design, entirely contrary to the notion of skilled action combat, may as well go play a card game if I want hard counters. What you want is soft counters, where classes / builds have advantages / weaknesses, but where those advantages / weakness can still be overcome by playing well or get punished for playing badly.

Second his comparison is massively lop sided, he stands 1v20 spamming his hard counter, but that is supposed to be offset because one good melee might kill him, in what reality is that "balanced". It still comes across as someone who was fine when "balance" was heavily in his favour, but doesn't like it now he can't 1 v 20 crutching on a broken hard counter.

PvP balance was always trash in this game, which is precisely why if you played early in the game there were DKs everywhere, immune to ranged builds, yet still silly strong in melee. Or why Sorcs / NBs were so common for so many years in this game, because aside from them actually being very strong in terms of combat much of the time they both broke risk vs reward by being able to easily disengage if they were losing (so zero balance breaking the most fundamental rule of PvP design - risk vs reward). Again players flock to the busted stuff this game has always had, the only good balance this game has ever had is the balance some see through their rose-tinted spectacles.

Which of course is one of the reasons PvP has been so unsuccessful in this game, even by the low standard of MMORPGs.

1. You are not arguing the same points I am. I am not arguing balance, I am pointing out that the OP's argument was taken out of context. Which it was.
2. Reread point number 1.

Wrong.

I didn't argue it wasn't taken out of context, I argued it was still ridiculous even in context with the full quote and thus the context made no difference. Which is why I wrote - "It is still laughable even with the full quote for two reasons.".

Furthermore you are arguing about balance, because the context, the part you bolded about balance, with the implication that somehow justifies the part that was "cherry picked", when of course it does no such thing, because it is still laughably imbalanced.

Incorrect.

1. I was not arguing with you, or anyone. I was pointing out that the person whom I initially replied to was taking someone elses post out of context, and it was. This is why I pointed out the bolded part.
2. Balance was the subject, I was not debating the subject. Simply pointing out that Gabriels post was flawed because it took things out of context, as I pointed out.

Sylosi · June 15

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Sylosi wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Sylosi wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Udrath wrote: »

I’ve unsubscribed and not really enjoying ESO anymore for the PvP since they have given up on balancing it.

Udrath wrote: »

Like back in the day I could 1v20 a bunch of ranged classes on stamdk because of wings

...

LOL..you once again cherry pick a post and misquote them. This is literally called propaganda as in you are twisting what is being said by your inference of hypocrisy by the author you quoted.

This is the actual quote by @Udrath. I have bolded the imporant part you left out.

Udrath wrote: »

I’ve unsubscribed and not really enjoying ESO anymore for the PvP since they have given up on balancing it. Classes used to feel good. Like back in the day I could 1v20 a bunch of ranged classes on stamdk because of wings, but one good melee could come up and kill me. Back then it felt like each class had strengths and weaknesses, but now pvp just isn’t that fun because there are no significant abilities like that between each class archetype (stamina/magicka), and eventually classes will end up all playing the same in time with subclassing.

It is still laughable even with the full quote for two reasons.

Firstly hard-counters in a supposed "skilled" action combat game are terrible design, entirely contrary to the notion of skilled action combat, may as well go play a card game if I want hard counters. What you want is soft counters, where classes / builds have advantages / weaknesses, but where those advantages / weakness can still be overcome by playing well or get punished for playing badly.

Second his comparison is massively lop sided, he stands 1v20 spamming his hard counter, but that is supposed to be offset because one good melee might kill him, in what reality is that "balanced". It still comes across as someone who was fine when "balance" was heavily in his favour, but doesn't like it now he can't 1 v 20 crutching on a broken hard counter.

PvP balance was always trash in this game, which is precisely why if you played early in the game there were DKs everywhere, immune to ranged builds, yet still silly strong in melee. Or why Sorcs / NBs were so common for so many years in this game, because aside from them actually being very strong in terms of combat much of the time they both broke risk vs reward by being able to easily disengage if they were losing (so zero balance breaking the most fundamental rule of PvP design - risk vs reward). Again players flock to the busted stuff this game has always had, the only good balance this game has ever had is the balance some see through their rose-tinted spectacles.

Which of course is one of the reasons PvP has been so unsuccessful in this game, even by the low standard of MMORPGs.

1. You are not arguing the same points I am. I am not arguing balance, I am pointing out that the OP's argument was taken out of context. Which it was.
2. Reread point number 1.

Wrong.

I didn't argue it wasn't taken out of context, I argued it was still ridiculous even in context with the full quote and thus the context made no difference. Which is why I wrote - "It is still laughable even with the full quote for two reasons.".

Furthermore you are arguing about balance, because the context, the part you bolded about balance, with the implication that somehow justifies the part that was "cherry picked", when of course it does no such thing, because it is still laughably imbalanced.

Incorrect.

1. I was not arguing with you, or anyone. I was pointing out that the person whom I initially replied to was taking someone elses post out of context, and it was. This is why I pointed out the bolded part.
2. Balance was the subject, I was not debating the subject. Simply pointing out that Gabriels post was flawed because it took things out of context, as I pointed out.

His post was fine the lack of context made no difference, because it changed nothing, so still wrong. And yes you are arguing about balance, as that "balance" that you bolded was the supposed justification as to why Gabriel's post's lack of context was incorrect.

Pixiepumpkin · June 15

Rungar wrote: »

this game is a business and has obviously been run as a business, not a labor of love. That being said ive always though that zos's combat and dungeon/trial design has always been a major disconnect for the majority of its skyrim casual player base. Not just this game either. All the mmos are stuck in the same rut.

zos would just make it easier because thats the road of lowest effort but mmos are stagnant because they have not been able to successfully improve the gameplay to a point where its actually favorable to be in the company of other people. Thus the modern trend of soloing in mmos, defeating the purpose of its own existence. People are tired of people. These games need to do alot more to make that go the other way.

their new mmo will suffer the same fate if they do the same things.

Agreed. No Man's Sky is a labor of love. I don't get the same vibes here. I don't hear any passion coming through.

I think most people like MMORPG's because the playerbase brings life to a game. But not that they necessarily want to enage with other players. At least that is how I feel. I don't mind engaing on occasion, but I don't like being held to a schedule like WOW required in vanilla raiding.

Pixiepumpkin · June 15

Sylosi wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Sylosi wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Sylosi wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Udrath wrote: »

I’ve unsubscribed and not really enjoying ESO anymore for the PvP since they have given up on balancing it.

Udrath wrote: »

Like back in the day I could 1v20 a bunch of ranged classes on stamdk because of wings

...

LOL..you once again cherry pick a post and misquote them. This is literally called propaganda as in you are twisting what is being said by your inference of hypocrisy by the author you quoted.

This is the actual quote by @Udrath. I have bolded the imporant part you left out.

Udrath wrote: »

I’ve unsubscribed and not really enjoying ESO anymore for the PvP since they have given up on balancing it. Classes used to feel good. Like back in the day I could 1v20 a bunch of ranged classes on stamdk because of wings, but one good melee could come up and kill me. Back then it felt like each class had strengths and weaknesses, but now pvp just isn’t that fun because there are no significant abilities like that between each class archetype (stamina/magicka), and eventually classes will end up all playing the same in time with subclassing.

It is still laughable even with the full quote for two reasons.

Firstly hard-counters in a supposed "skilled" action combat game are terrible design, entirely contrary to the notion of skilled action combat, may as well go play a card game if I want hard counters. What you want is soft counters, where classes / builds have advantages / weaknesses, but where those advantages / weakness can still be overcome by playing well or get punished for playing badly.

Second his comparison is massively lop sided, he stands 1v20 spamming his hard counter, but that is supposed to be offset because one good melee might kill him, in what reality is that "balanced". It still comes across as someone who was fine when "balance" was heavily in his favour, but doesn't like it now he can't 1 v 20 crutching on a broken hard counter.

PvP balance was always trash in this game, which is precisely why if you played early in the game there were DKs everywhere, immune to ranged builds, yet still silly strong in melee. Or why Sorcs / NBs were so common for so many years in this game, because aside from them actually being very strong in terms of combat much of the time they both broke risk vs reward by being able to easily disengage if they were losing (so zero balance breaking the most fundamental rule of PvP design - risk vs reward). Again players flock to the busted stuff this game has always had, the only good balance this game has ever had is the balance some see through their rose-tinted spectacles.

Which of course is one of the reasons PvP has been so unsuccessful in this game, even by the low standard of MMORPGs.

1. You are not arguing the same points I am. I am not arguing balance, I am pointing out that the OP's argument was taken out of context. Which it was.
2. Reread point number 1.

Wrong.

I didn't argue it wasn't taken out of context, I argued it was still ridiculous even in context with the full quote and thus the context made no difference. Which is why I wrote - "It is still laughable even with the full quote for two reasons.".

Furthermore you are arguing about balance, because the context, the part you bolded about balance, with the implication that somehow justifies the part that was "cherry picked", when of course it does no such thing, because it is still laughably imbalanced.

Incorrect.

1. I was not arguing with you, or anyone. I was pointing out that the person whom I initially replied to was taking someone elses post out of context, and it was. This is why I pointed out the bolded part.
2. Balance was the subject, I was not debating the subject. Simply pointing out that Gabriels post was flawed because it took things out of context, as I pointed out.

His post was fine the lack of context made no difference, because it changed nothing, so still wrong. And yes you are arguing about balance, as that "balance" that you bolded was the supposed justification as to why Gabriels post lack of context was incorrect.

I do not intend for this thread to get locked. I went to send you a PM to correct you but your account is set to private. You may send me a PM if you intend on furthering this discussion.

Rungar · June 15

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

this game is a business and has obviously been run as a business, not a labor of love. That being said ive always though that zos's combat and dungeon/trial design has always been a major disconnect for the majority of its skyrim casual player base. Not just this game either. All the mmos are stuck in the same rut.

zos would just make it easier because thats the road of lowest effort but mmos are stagnant because they have not been able to successfully improve the gameplay to a point where its actually favorable to be in the company of other people. Thus the modern trend of soloing in mmos, defeating the purpose of its own existence. People are tired of people. These games need to do alot more to make that go the other way.

their new mmo will suffer the same fate if they do the same things.

Agreed. No Man's Sky is a labor of love. I don't get the same vibes here. I don't hear any passion coming through.

I think most people like MMORPG's because the playerbase brings life to a game. But not that they necessarily want to enage with other players. At least that is how I feel. I don't mind engaing on occasion, but I don't like being held to a schedule like WOW required in vanilla raiding.

i agree with what you say here but i also think people do want to be around other people, but the game tools are severely lacking to make that a really enjoyable experience. Even games like FFIX are giving up and putting in alot more solo content because like zos, they don't understand that their dungeon/trial model is obsolete and simply not fun or worth it for the modern player. Trials are too much work and effort, dungeons have really no adventure at all. They are both really just linear formulaic kill sprees.. same formula for about 25 years now trash-boss-trash-boss and death mechanics and they wonder why there's a disconnect.

eso quests are pretty decent with the voice acting and neat quirky stuff. Dungeons and trials are mostly garbage. Players are expecting the quest but better with other players and are getting slop instead where everyone rushes to get it over with and turns on everyone when they cant perform.

ideally , even if you lose, it should still be enjoyable as a group. There are lots of ways to make that real for the vast majority of players that dont have a massive friends list or amazing guild that zos has not explored.

soelslaev · June 15

My estimate is that 50% of the problem is the diminishing margin of utility we get from the dopamine hit we get when we accomplish a task in the game. In neurology this phenomenon is called habituation, but trying to find any research to back my assertion at the NIH is tough because the search results are mostly about chemical dependence. So, ummm, trust me? In other words, half the problem here is burn out. So good; go do something else – for your mental health.

Another 25% of the problem is with the game, and I don't have good news. The problem is baked in jank. In my personal life, I work on a mid-pop app. First, mobile app dev is baby poop compared to vidya game dev. As y'all know, software is made in layers, and our app has a janky lower level. I have been working on fixing the jank for 2 years. Metaphorically, how do I completely redo the first floor of a building while everyone still uses the first floor to its full capacity?

For ESO, I've been here since 30 days before Morrowind released, and there is jank that is never going away without a full rewrite. I'll give you a concrete example: the node pathing. Notice how, when you're in a fully closed off city that the quest arrows don't work on the zone map? The quest arrow stops at the exit to the city. You have to teleport outside the city for the final destination quest arrow to work right on the zone map. Now, even the most naive intern knows not to write your own node-pathing lib. So it ain't the node-pathing logic, but rather, they did not account for node pathing in the area data structures so there is no logical possible way to hand multiple areas to the node pathing wrapper and have it send the right info the node pathing lib. This might also be impacting 'cannot mount while in combat'. Some monster far away after you rez at a shrine thinks it can still get to you because of node pathing limitations. But all of this is my surmising from the outside, but you get the idea. Every piece of lower level jank can have wide ranging impacts that are not worth fixing.

The good news is that ZOS is working on something else. I hope it's an MMORPG. They have proven that are very inventive. ESO is the first MMORPG that I have liked. Seeing WOW gameplay with its 3 by 8 grid of squares all with some 1 second timer going looks like a fate worse than death to me. Not even competition to ESO for me. I fail to understand how folks even make the comparison.

As for the final 25% of the problem. Again, based on my software dev experience on a public product, y'all are just on the wrong side of analytics. In the mobile space, every year, my team has to make the decision to screw over like 5% of users. Sure, vidya game reasons are different than mobile app reasons, but the general situation is the same: limited allocation of resources. We gotta allocate where the most number of users are benefitted. Sorry? //shrug// If it makes you feel better, I'm an outlier too in my tastes and my fav things get killed, shut down, discontinued a lot too. Sniff, I miss you iPod Shuffle.

Elsonso · June 15

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

this game is a business and has obviously been run as a business, not a labor of love. That being said ive always though that zos's combat and dungeon/trial design has always been a major disconnect for the majority of its skyrim casual player base. Not just this game either. All the mmos are stuck in the same rut.

zos would just make it easier because thats the road of lowest effort but mmos are stagnant because they have not been able to successfully improve the gameplay to a point where its actually favorable to be in the company of other people. Thus the modern trend of soloing in mmos, defeating the purpose of its own existence. People are tired of people. These games need to do alot more to make that go the other way.

their new mmo will suffer the same fate if they do the same things.

Agreed. No Man's Sky is a labor of love. I don't get the same vibes here. I don't hear any passion coming through.

I think most people like MMORPG's because the playerbase brings life to a game. But not that they necessarily want to enage with other players. At least that is how I feel. I don't mind engaing on occasion, but I don't like being held to a schedule like WOW required in vanilla raiding.

ZOS has always had an arms length relationship with the community. At least, the rank-and-file community. There are top tier community members that they are quite chummy with.

There is no reason why a business and a labor of love should be mutually exclusive. However, I do not expect such a thing under the corporate direction from XBox and Microsoft.

fizzybeef · June 15

ADarklore wrote: »

All of these "I unsubscribed" posts... and then wonder why ZOS leans towards it's most profitable players... solo/casual players who enjoy housing and buying things from the store, than endgame or PvP.

ZOS said years ago that ESO+ doesn't pay the bills, hence the emphasis on the crown store and other money-making ventures that people say are 'money grabs'. ZOS is a 'for profit' company that needs to continuously make money to justify further development of the game. So if endgame and PvP players aren't spending money on the crown store, aren't buying houses or crates, then they aren't a profitable aspect of the game... and in fact, could be considered more of a drain on resources. You have to look at it from a business perspective... why would you continuously develop and add content specifically for groups that do not help your bottom line?

So next time someone posts about how THEY don't like the focus of the game, they need to ask themselves how much they've spent in the store the past year, and the previous years? Because that's exactly what ZOS is looking at, from a business perspective.

Let's spend more money on a failing game to hope they make the game better.
Its like grabing into a falling knife

AngryPenguin · June 15

ADarklore wrote: »

All of these "I unsubscribed" posts... and then wonder why ZOS leans towards it's most profitable players... solo/casual players who enjoy housing and buying things from the store, than endgame or PvP.

ZOS said years ago that ESO+ doesn't pay the bills, hence the emphasis on the crown store and other money-making ventures that people say are 'money grabs'. ZOS is a 'for profit' company that needs to continuously make money to justify further development of the game. So if endgame and PvP players aren't spending money on the crown store, aren't buying houses or crates, then they aren't a profitable aspect of the game... and in fact, could be considered more of a drain on resources. You have to look at it from a business perspective... why would you continuously develop and add content specifically for groups that do not help your bottom line?

So next time someone posts about how THEY don't like the focus of the game, they need to ask themselves how much they've spent in the store the past year, and the previous years? Because that's exactly what ZOS is looking at, from a business perspective.

Where is your proof that it's the solo/casual players who pay the bills? This is a strawman argument. Reasonably it makes more sense to think that it's the long term vet players who are most invested, financially and otherwise, into the game. Wouldn't it be the daily players that spend the most money on the game?

As far as what ZOS says, it's more informative to watch what ZOS does if you want to know what's going on.

Gadamlub14_ESO · June 15

Rungar wrote: »

this game is a business and has obviously been run as a business, not a labor of love. That being said ive always though that zos's combat and dungeon/trial design has always been a major disconnect for the majority of its skyrim casual player base. Not just this game either. All the mmos are stuck in the same rut.

zos would just make it easier because thats the road of lowest effort but mmos are stagnant because they have not been able to successfully improve the gameplay to a point where its actually favorable to be in the company of other people. Thus the modern trend of soloing in mmos, defeating the purpose of its own existence. People are tired of people. These games need to do alot more to make that go the other way.

their new mmo will suffer the same fate if they do the same things.

people are mostly here and still here, for elder scrolls. if Zos treats their new MMO project in the same way they treat ESO i dont expect the MMO to last more than a couple months.

CoronHR · June 15

i'm laughing although it's not really funny ... at the end of that guy's heart-felt post, he got a 'good-bye' closing thread reply from zos. a real slap in the face and a poor excuse as to why

fizzybeef · June 15

Gadamlub14_ESO wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

this game is a business and has obviously been run as a business, not a labor of love. That being said ive always though that zos's combat and dungeon/trial design has always been a major disconnect for the majority of its skyrim casual player base. Not just this game either. All the mmos are stuck in the same rut.

zos would just make it easier because thats the road of lowest effort but mmos are stagnant because they have not been able to successfully improve the gameplay to a point where its actually favorable to be in the company of other people. Thus the modern trend of soloing in mmos, defeating the purpose of its own existence. People are tired of people. These games need to do alot more to make that go the other way.

their new mmo will suffer the same fate if they do the same things.

people are mostly here and still here, for elder scrolls. if Zos treats their new MMO project in the same way they treat ESO i dont expect the MMO to last more than a couple months.

Everyone who plays their new mmo after the horrendous experience we made here is not to help anyway