Who do you think Subclassing was meant for?

moderatelyfatman

Now that most of the players have had a chance to look a subclassing, it's worth asking why this change that most of us never asked for, and did not see coming, happened?
Who you think subclassing was really meant for?

LunaFlora

Mid-game PvE and casual players (because endgame achievements should be for everyone)

i just voted for what i am.
But it was obviously meant for everyone which is why it's base game.

New players can use Subclassing if their character is level 50 as can anyone else. you only need 1 character for it.
Of course you need skill points, but you can collect those by playing the game which we all do.

bmnoble

Everyone and to attempt to satisfy the spell crafting, class change token and class less Elder scrolls game requests, in one go with only partial success.

Erickson9610

This poll is too specific and there's not an "Other" option. Subclassing is designed to make ESO more like a TES game — it's for everyone.

Nemesis7884

For casual TES fans that want more freedom to build their fantasy...

Game should have been based on skill lines rather than classes but was originally based on Oblivion and later adapted to be more like Skyrim

Ishtarknows

Biased poll.
It assumes that subclassing is only for one group of players which is not the case. It's for anyone who wants to engage with it. There should be an option for "everyone" or allow us to pick more than one. Also it's missing the obligatory "other" option

tincanman

zos have and are directing new content and changes to existing content to new and returning players. This is pretty much expressed in Matt Firor's letters over the last couple of years.

Balancing for the last few years has clearly been done by spreadsheet: once a set/skill exceeds some internally set arbitrary or functional red line it is nerfed. That red line would seem to be set at number of concurrent users. There might be occassional outliers where multiple users F1-report a skill/set but, judging from Rush of Agony, it is the spreadsheet red-line approach that seems to be preferred. This makes sense from the perspective of maintenance: if everyone is using a set/skill then it is probably (yet arguably) over-tuned; I don't think this spreadsheet approach can accomodate a skill/set rising in use/popularity simply because it's fun etc, though. The other situation is which a set is nerfed is when the latest dlc/chapter/season/release is about to unleash some new super-set that overlaps in functionality with a currently popular set. The latter is economics.

Subclassing is an admission to me by the devs that they have found themselves deep inside an np-complete hole which they dug themselves into with respect to balancing. Skills and sets are ultimately subsets of numbers that should and could be pre-emptively set at the design stage by careful application of maths/arithemetic to ensure they do balance. Instead of going back to the drawing board they have clearly decided to just jump right in and embrace the reality of the problem of their creation. The spreadsheet will show them when they need to address any skill/set reactively as it always has but, by its nature, is reactive, rather than proactive. It's also pretty cheap in that it doesn't require dev attention until a set/skill/system exceeds that hypothetical spreadsheet red line.

This is what, I think, leads to frustration among long-term players, end-game pve, pvp players: the knowledge and direct experience that some set/skill or system is 'broken; or overperforming and a lack of comprehension at what is perceived as dev obtuseness in the face of the reality fo the game those player demographics experience. And all the time that spreadhseet red-line has not been breached and therefore abhorent skill x or set y remains unchanged.

The result, personally: I don't mind subclassing. But it does mean with all the change introduced in the game that I am pulling back more and more and becoming increasingly casualised. I suspect this is by design. I, too, could just suck it up adapt and persist but I no longer see the point. I think zos have a target demographic in mind - and a target amount of minimal resources they wish to expend in maintenance of this 10+ year old game.

As an aside:

the new gui changes were not introduced for longer-term players but for newer and retuning players. For returning players it is visually impactful of implied sub-surface changes and arguably an encouragement to explor emore. For new players it looks just like 'all the rest' and that familiarity may make other aspects of the game easier to endure and thus explore.

Meiox

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

Now that most of the players have had a chance to look a subclassing, it's worth asking why this change that most of us never asked for, and did not see coming, happened?
Who you think subclassing was really meant for?

its for all players! Can you people just stop talking like you talk for all of us?
At least you could have waited with the poll until also the console people had a chance to look at it

Danikat

Another poll that could have been good if didn't insert someone else's opinions into the options.

I think subclassing is aimed mainly at people familiar with the main series TES games and casual players, but nothing to do with making achievements easier because there's always been ways for all classes to get achievements if they want them. Most casual players are simply not interested in end game achievements, otherwise they wouldn't be casual players.

I'm not using it much yet (for various reasons I haven't played much since the last update) but I think subclassing is up there with One Tamriel as things that make ESO feel more like a real TES game.

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

For casual TES fans that want more freedom to build their fantasy...

Game should have been based on skill lines rather than classes but was originally based on Oblivion and later adapted to be more like Skyrim

Oblivion didn't have classes in the sense ESO does . (At least the original didn't, I don't know about the new version.) At the start of the game you have to choose your starting skills and attributes and choosing a class was a quick way to get a set that nominally worked together, but it didn't lock you into those choices or prevent you from using other skills. You could also create your own mix-and-match selection if you wanted to. If you pick a class and then decide you want to do something different all you need to do is start using the skill you wanted and it'll level up.

Pixiepumpkin

The Devs (who don't have to worry about balancing classes any more)

Anyone who has a design degree and or who has worked in a design studio knows there is only one real answer. A basic study of previous chapter content vs what we are paying for now is also a strong indicator of the new design direction for ESO and unfortunately most of you will get it wrong.

TinyDragon

Where is the option for people just playing solo/questing? That's what I'm using it for, and it's great fun.

Muizer

Endgame PvE players (because every group needs 300k dps players and only one healer)

I'd say it's interesting for those who:

• still have all the content to explore with this system
• try to get better at repeated end-game content.

I don't see how it adds much for a casual player who has been around for years. the question "what for?" comes to mind.

sleepy_worm

This is one sassy poll.

Soarora

I’m strongly in the belief that it was meant for people who want class change tokens because zos cant figure out how to code class changes.

RealLoveBVB

Mid-game PvE and casual players (because endgame achievements should be for everyone)

It's definitely made for casuals/solo players, as they are also the majority.

Endgame and PVP turned out to be so niche already, that the devs don't develop something for such a small playerbase.

Here are some examples how the development of the last years had bad influence on the end game:

https://youtu.be/iDYZ0MPt8Ys?si=9JLIeImn9Qni56Sy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOeOGfPD_8s


Elder scrolls was usually some sort of medieval-themed game with magicians for me.
Now it's close to Fallout with 30 shiny effects and beams/lasers only.

Endgame is a joke now and PVP an even more clown fest.

I hope all those solo players have fun now at least.

Muizer

Endgame PvE players (because every group needs 300k dps players and only one healer)

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

I hope all those solo players have fun now at least.

Nah, this is only for those who like to experiment with repeatable combat heavy content. They now have different ways of doing so to try out. That's endgame PvE mostly. Of course new solo PvE players might benefit from it but not the old ones. It's really no incentive to go through content again for the umpteenth time and where 90% of encounters are over before you can complete half a rotation.

colossalvoids

Imo it's aimed to the majority being more casual, solo and new players overall. It gives enough of the illusion of choice and diversity it seems, same as scribing. Personally I don't have much choice playing with other people if don't want to become a dead weight but to utilise it, but in no way this abomination of a "class" is what I prefer. Saw some endgame groups being positive about it but that's hardly an indication of overall reception or a consensus. But it seems to look positive in more casual circles I observe, some even try to compare it to the freedom of single player games but I honestly fail to see any of that, just breaking of the last bits of identity we had previously, nothing more.

AzuraFan

Soarora wrote: »

I’m strongly in the belief that it was meant for people who want class change tokens because zos cant figure out how to code class changes.

I second that belief!

freespirit

Firstly as a PC player even I find it vaguely insulting that you think "most players" have had a chance to look at subclassing when consoles don't even have the update yet!

Secondly I think it was genuinely meant for everyone and although I am just starting to experiments with it, I think there will be uses for everyone too.

I can see myself levelling multiple skill lines I've never used before just to "try them" without the negative of playing a class that really doesn't appeal to me. 🙂

SilverBride

Endgame PvE players (because every group needs 300k dps players and only one healer)

I chose end game PvE because I think they are the ones that would benefit from it more. I don't think the average player needs to reach huge damage for the content they play. And if they are like me and hate don't enjoy theorycrafting I can't see it appealing to a lot players.

Danikat

Muizer wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

I hope all those solo players have fun now at least.

Nah, this is only for those who like to experiment with repeatable combat heavy content. They now have different ways of doing so to try out. That's endgame PvE mostly. Of course new solo PvE players might benefit from it but not the old ones. It's really no incentive to go through content again for the umpteenth time and where 90% of encounters are over before you can complete half a rotation.

I disagree. I can understand how it might seem that way to someone who isn't a casual player, but a lot of people do find replaying quests on new characters interesting. Even when the quests themselves don't offer a choice role-playing can add variety, and a lot of casual players tend to take their time with things and don't mind going back to older areas of the game so it's more likely repeating quests means replaying something they haven't done for a few years, rather than doing a 3rd or 4th back to back run through the latest chapter to check it off as completed on all their characters.

I've just made a new character (finally making an arcanist) and he'll be my 3rd DC character, but going through Coldharbour and getting dropped into Stros M'kai is more like the feeling of going back to a game I haven't played in a while, because it's been a while since I was there.

Artanisul

The Devs (who don't have to worry about balancing classes any more)

I believe it was for the Devs, but not for the reason you state in the poll.

Its auto-piloting. People will tinker with it while they make the next "system" that people can fiddle with. Nothing of substance and certainly not something that will be supported into the future.

We really need content that requires the characters we can build.

DenverRalphy

The Devs (who don't have to worry about balancing classes any more)

IMO, I think it's one more step towards placing development on cruise control.

Not saying development is being cut out entirely. But going forward I think there will be less emphasis on core game development, and more on churning content that works within the game's current state.

The latest trailer is oddly reminiscent of a "The Sims" trailer. And I'm not entirely convinced that that's not the direction the game is steering.

noblecron

The Devs (who don't have to worry about balancing classes any more)

I voted for Devs. One one of my friends brought up a good point to me. When ZOS made the original 4 classes they were going for tank, mag dps, stam dps healer. Once they started including other classes they did the play how you want style and gave them kits for tanking, healing and dpsing. Unfortunately it meant they had to balance the older classes and due to ZOS having more and more trouble balancing and newer classes being able to outperform older classes (Looks at Arcanist which is top class rn). It's really to help out poorer classes that can't perform like the newer classes. DK healer for instance can heal better now if you want to do DK healing

Ishtarknows

Artanisul wrote: »

We really need content that requires the characters we can build.

I agree with this sentiment!

xylena_lazarow

PvPers (I put this in here so you wouldn't feel left out)

me

Renato90085

The Devs (who don't have to worry about balancing classes any more)

I chose this because other type player I met in this month many hate this
casual players hate more exp farm or need lv up more toon
Pve endgame hate only 3 skill line better than pure class and other 1k+ other build 50~100k dps
Pvper hate I think is balanced so broken
But same time I met some mid pve use this op thing try clean they first trial hm clean
and I hate this killed my pure dps ,but I like this in healer,40+sec can got 500ult very carzy

Artim_X

IMO, none of the above captures the totality of the decision.

I for one think it's to add more choice and variety in general without having to generate new assets to add more skills. 1) To save time 2) engine limits for adding new stuff 3) enable more play how you want builds.

HalfDragoness

If I'm honest it feels like subclassing came out of nowhere. It didn't seem like anyone was asking for it and suddenly here it is. There wasn't even much warning between the time they announced and it being added into the game.

This suggests to me that this change is the groundwork for something in the future. They've said they're changing the way content is added so it's possible this will start to make more sense a year or two from now.

I know this isn't how most players think but in game development terms things take a long time to come to fruition.

Alternatively maybe they'll add it in and then do absolutely nothing with it... like they have with scribing. We shall see.

Jaimeh

The Devs (who don't have to worry about balancing classes any more)

I thought to myself 'the devs' even before I had the chance to read the options. It was the easiest way to offer a 'new' system without actually working on something new.

Muizer

Endgame PvE players (because every group needs 300k dps players and only one healer)

Danikat wrote: »

I disagree. I can understand how it might seem that way to someone who isn't a casual player,

Well I can't say anything about that, being a casual player myself.

Danikat wrote: »

but a lot of people do find replaying quests on new characters interesting. Even when the quests themselves don't offer a choice role-playing can add variety, and a lot of casual players tend to take their time with things and don't mind going back to older areas of the game so it's more likely repeating quests means replaying something they haven't done for a few years, rather than doing a 3rd or 4th back to back run through the latest chapter to check it off as completed on all their characters. I've just made a new character (finally making an arcanist) and he'll be my 3rd DC character, but going through Coldharbour and getting dropped into Stros M'kai is more like the feeling of going back to a game I haven't played in a while, because it's been a while since I was there.

Yeah but you're talking about creating a new character on a class you haven't played yet. That I can somewhat understand, though personally I have stopped taking them through the questing content. I go through the zones to collect the skyshards for skill points (it's more than enough).

Multi-classing is something I'd be inclined to do most on an existing character that I want to improve/change in some way. But the question then is "what for?". A leveled character is already way too strong for most casual content. It is difficult enough as it is to truly play that content in different combat styles because those different styles just don't matter.