U46: Banner bearer keeps turning itself off!

Sarannah

The new way Banner Bearer works with taking resources instead of lowering the resources recovery is not functional in gameplay. Whenever there is too low mana or stamina(which happens all the time) banner bearer turns itself off. Making the entire skill now useless.

Please revert this change!

From the patch notes:

Banner bearer: Updated the cost for this grimoire to 459 Magicka and Stamina every 2 seconds for all Focus script except Immobilize, which is now 720 Stamina and Health, rather than reducing your Health, Magicka, and Stamina Recovery by 45% for all scripts except Immobilize, which reduced by 50%.

RealLoveBVB

Banner bearer is now a active spell, which costs ressources, instead of being a passive spells, that reduces your recovery.
So once you don't have enough ressources to keep the Banner active, it turns off. Sounds logic I guess.

So players have to care for the sustain again and don't get close to 0 to keep the banner active.

Sarannah

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Banner bearer is now a active spell, which costs ressources, instead of being a passive spells, that reduces your recovery.
So once you don't have enough ressources to keep the Banner active, it turns off. Sounds logic I guess.

So players have to care for the sustain again and don't get close to 0 to keep the banner active.

Which defeats the entire point of having the banner in the first place.

Stupid change, that should be reverted!

RealLoveBVB

Sarannah wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Banner bearer is now a active spell, which costs ressources, instead of being a passive spells, that reduces your recovery.
So once you don't have enough ressources to keep the Banner active, it turns off. Sounds logic I guess.

So players have to care for the sustain again and don't get close to 0 to keep the banner active.

Which defeats the entire point of having the banner in the first place.

Stupid change, that should be reverted!

Why tho? The buffs are still there and that's the point of the banner.
They just changed the cost. Now you have active costs, rather than cutted by your recovery.
225 magicka/stamina per second is also not that much.

Sarannah

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Banner bearer is now a active spell, which costs ressources, instead of being a passive spells, that reduces your recovery.
So once you don't have enough ressources to keep the Banner active, it turns off. Sounds logic I guess.

So players have to care for the sustain again and don't get close to 0 to keep the banner active.

Which defeats the entire point of having the banner in the first place.

Stupid change, that should be reverted!

Why tho? The buffs are still there and that's the point of the banner.
They just changed the cost. Now you have active costs, rather than cutted by your recovery.
225 magicka/stamina per second is also not that much.

It's 459 magicka/stamina every two seconds, and any direct cost is too much. At the moment I am playing a magicka character with barely any stamina/stamina recovery, which means if I even run a short distance my banner will turn off. Even if my primary resource is full.

The entire reason I liked the banner, was because it had a passive buff with a high recovery cost. I could turn it on, and always have it active while playing, without having to pay attention to it. The original recovery cost of banner allowed me to spend all my magicka/stamina and retain the buff, I only had to wait a bit longer to refill my resources with the slower regens. Having to actively manage or pay mind to the banner's passive buff, no longer makes it a passive buff. An xx second buff would be more useful as banner bearer now, as atleast you can control that buff when it is on or off.

Active skills are not my thing, especially not if they turn themselves off whenever they want! To me this entire change makes me no longer want to use the banner.

PS: I do know banner and it's new resource costs are working as intended, I just feel they did not think it through.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Sarannah wrote: »

Active skills are not my thing, especially not if they turn themselves off whenever they want! To me this entire change makes me no longer want to use the banner.

So don't use it and use something else from one of the subclassing skill lines instead.

I also don't think the change was a particularly good one unless banner is made one-bar usable like with nb cloak or Simmering Frenzy. that being said the gameplay is essentially the same with banner you just need to make slight modifications to your build to have enough sustain if you don't want it to turn off at all.

Sarannah

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Active skills are not my thing, especially not if they turn themselves off whenever they want! To me this entire change makes me no longer want to use the banner.

So don't use it and use something else from one of the subclassing skill lines instead.

I also don't think the change was a particularly good one unless banner is made one-bar usable like with nb cloak or Simmering Frenzy. that being said the gameplay is essentially the same with banner you just need to make slight modifications to your build to have enough sustain if you don't want it to turn off at all.

The gameplay is NOT the same.

Before U46: Turn on banner, forget about it.
After U46: Turn on banner, monitor resources, monitor resource spending, monitor if banner is still on.

Basically constantly monitor everything. To me that is not the same, and even more of a hassle than regular buff skills which are cast and the buff works for xx seconds. I thought banner was supposed to be working as a passive, to fill the gap for those players not wanting to use active buffs.

This new change removes the entire use and point of banner bearer. Atleast to me it does.

Ragnarok0130

Sarannah wrote: »

The new way Banner Bearer works with taking resources instead of lowering the resources recovery is not functional in gameplay. Whenever there is too low mana or stamina(which happens all the time) banner bearer turns itself off. Making the entire skill now useless.

Please revert this change!

From the patch notes:

Banner bearer: Updated the cost for this grimoire to 459 Magicka and Stamina every 2 seconds for all Focus script except Immobilize, which is now 720 Stamina and Health, rather than reducing your Health, Magicka, and Stamina Recovery by 45% for all scripts except Immobilize, which reduced by 50%.

I totally agree, when I saw this change on the PTS I knew it was going to be bad and frankly it doesn’t make any sense to make that change.

HowellQagan

At least they could've made it one-barable with this change. It's pretty annoying that I have to use it on both bars to keep it up, especially with this change.

Cooperharley

The change I would've loved to have seen for this skill (and all other similar skills) is to remove the double bar requirement.

I don't think i've ever played with anyone that thinks this feels good. Please remove all double barring requirements! We did it with bound aegis/armaments and merciless resolve/relentless focus, so let's do it with all skills like it!

Gabriel_H

Sarannah wrote: »

Before U46: Turn on banner, forget about it.

Which ZOS explained in the patch notes was the problem:

"We're adjusting the cost for this Grimoire to be easier to understand and work with, as well as using a cost that is far less lopsided with how effective it can be with certain build types."

In other words, before we were getting a huge buff with zero cost.

master_vanargand

Adapt.
Balance.
Complete.

DenverRalphy

Banner Bearer was ridiculously OP before the change. Now only slightly OP.

Get rid of the flaming ring visual and I'll be so so happy.

exiars10

Banner Bearer is not useless in U46. I see plenty of players use it in PUG dungeons and trials.
I agree with @DenverRalphy - it was ridiculously OP, now (U46) is just slightly OP. This is one of the rare good changes in U46.

I use it on Bosmer Sorcerer stamina healer/support without any resources' issues. I constantly spam skills and even in trials when I spam 2x E. Vigor it's really rare that I have to use resource potion. In dungeons no matter how hard I try, I can't drop below 50% resources. It's ridiculous .

If you have sustain issues, your build is a problem.

Elvenheart

I don’t like using the skill because I can’t get past the big stick on my characters back.

Sarannah

exiars10 wrote: »

If you have sustain issues, your build is a problem.

When I play overland I do not use food nor do I want to watch my sustain or resource usage(including for a non-main resource). Overland is to relax in, not to stress about things and watching everything. Making this change a bad one.

Not only in overland though, anywhere possible it might just turn off on it's own when your resources get too low now. Making this a bad change. Especially as this usually happens in high stress situations, situations where banner bearer would actually be useful. And then it's off again.

It often takes a while to even notice banner bearer turned itself off. I'd rather have a skill not fire due to too low resource regen as banner bearer used to be, than have a passive skill turn itself off when low on resources and having to watch my resources and resource usage like a hawk.

Anyways, I have stopped using banner bearer entirely. Sadly, because I actually liked the way this skill worked. Ease was the entire reason this skill was created, and now that is removed.

PS: Banner bearer was in no way overpowered, it was useful in rare situations. That is all.
PPS: I am not a min-maxer, I usually play easy-to-use and passive builds. Which banner bearer used to fit right in with, due to the passive bonusses and ease of use.

Edit:

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Before U46: Turn on banner, forget about it.

Which ZOS explained in the patch notes was the problem:

"We're adjusting the cost for this Grimoire to be easier to understand and work with, as well as using a cost that is far less lopsided with how effective it can be with certain build types."

In other words, before we were getting a huge buff with zero cost.

45% resource regen cost is not 'no cost'. It was actually a heavy cost, but it was a cost that did NOT automatically turn banner bearer off.

About build types, banner bearer is now much more lopsided against any non-hybrid build. As a low non-main resource which isn't included in the build at all can now turn off banner bearer. As I mentioned above, on my magicka character I now have to watch how much I run, or banner bearer turns itself off. Which I find ridiculous.

Renato90085

why not just change your build or use res food

exiars10

@Sarannah

There are no sustain issues with Banner and is still "just" slightly OP. If there were any serious sustain issues, nobody would run it, and yet - my personal casual experience - in 3/4 PUG trial runs somebody use it, and in 1/4 trail runs, two players use it. I see it much less in PUG dungeons.

I run it in overland when I farm Auridon dolmens for jewelry and skill progression, no food/drink buff, I spam skills, and still no sustain issue. It's your build.

About build types, banner bearer is now much more lopsided against any non-hybrid build.

Just no.
On my abovementioned Bosmer Sorcerer stamina healer/support I have only two magicka skills: Energy Orb & Power Surge. Everything else are stamina skills and most of them are spammable (Shield Throw; Torchbearer; Echoing Vigor; Vault). It works without any issue.

TL; DR
You want to use OP skill without investing a bit of in sustain.

twisttop138

Just get rid of the ring, God it's annoying. Also it persists for awhile after you take banner away for some reason lol.

Major_Toughness

It's overland you don't need banner anyway.

Food buffs can last up to like 2.5 hours, I wouldn't say that it is something you have to monitor.

sarahthes

Sarannah wrote: »

exiars10 wrote: »

If you have sustain issues, your build is a problem.

When I play overland I do not use food nor do I want to watch my sustain or resource usage(including for a non-main resource). Overland is to relax in, not to stress about things and watching everything. Making this change a bad one.

Not only in overland though, anywhere possible it might just turn off on it's own when your resources get too low now. Making this a bad change. Especially as this usually happens in high stress situations, situations where banner bearer would actually be useful. And then it's off again.

It often takes a while to even notice banner bearer turned itself off. I'd rather have a skill not fire due to too low resource regen as banner bearer used to be, than have a passive skill turn itself off when low on resources and having to watch my resources and resource usage like a hawk.

Anyways, I have stopped using banner bearer entirely. Sadly, because I actually liked the way this skill worked. Ease was the entire reason this skill was created, and now that is removed.

PS: Banner bearer was in no way overpowered, it was useful in rare situations. That is all.
PPS: I am not a min-maxer, I usually play easy-to-use and passive builds. Which banner bearer used to fit right in with, due to the passive bonusses and ease of use.

Edit:

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Before U46: Turn on banner, forget about it.

Which ZOS explained in the patch notes was the problem:

"We're adjusting the cost for this Grimoire to be easier to understand and work with, as well as using a cost that is far less lopsided with how effective it can be with certain build types."

In other words, before we were getting a huge buff with zero cost.

45% resource regen cost is not 'no cost'. It was actually a heavy cost, but it was a cost that did NOT automatically turn banner bearer off.

About build types, banner bearer is now much more lopsided against any non-hybrid build. As a low non-main resource which isn't included in the build at all can now turn off banner bearer. As I mentioned above, on my magicka character I now have to watch how much I run, or banner bearer turns itself off. Which I find ridiculous.

Banner is ridiculously OP still in endgame PvE and even mid game. Just because it wasn't for your playstyle doesn't mean it didn't need adjusting.

In endgame we have had to adapt by running recovery food and sometimes a recovery set such as symphony.

the90thmeridian

just use ghastly or lava foot then? if you dont use food in overland you won't feel the difference in terms of your health and the sustain they provide will do what you want in terms of the banner. if you dont have the recipes they are super cheap on guild traders.

mdjessup4906

However they want to balance it, it turning itself off when your resources are empty is annoying af. Wish they could just make it not function while empty instead. Turn it white or gray to show it's "off" and back to color when sustain is good again.

It also has a wierd habit of turning itself off when changing instances, going through doors, etc. But the flag and/or ring may or may not persist so only way to be sure the thing is actually on is to toggle it before every fight.

CameraBeardThePirate

Banner is much better for most builds now that its an active cost.

33% recovery reduction is an insanely high "cost". Let's look at an average PvP support build as an example. Typically a PvP healer will be running anywhere from 3k-5k mag recovery, which means old banner was costing them at minimum 1k mag/2s.

For a PvE build, your off stat cost might have gone up, but your main stat cost went down in almost all scenarios, as most builds are hitting the break even point of about 1200 recovery.

You can also reduce the cost of banner now with % modifiers like Breton/Imperial, Medium/Light armor, Class passives, etc etc.

Just keep an eye on it and turn it on again when it turns off. Its not exactly difficult to miss the giant flag on your back.

Sarannah

mdjessup4906 wrote: »

However they want to balance it, it turning itself off when your resources are empty is annoying af. Wish they could just make it not function while empty instead. Turn it white or gray to show it's "off" and back to color when sustain is good again.

It also has a wierd habit of turning itself off when changing instances, going through doors, etc. But the flag and/or ring may or may not persist so only way to be sure the thing is actually on is to toggle it before every fight.

Love this idea... let banner bearer bonusses not function for a second when it cannot claim the resource cost that second, instead of the skill turning itself off. And let banner bearer automatically function again when it can claim the resourcecost again. Maybe turn the visual to black/white during the time it does not function.

For the record, I think the resource cost is low too. But I do not want banner bearer to turn itself completely off, just when I need it most.

Great solution!

virtus753

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Just keep an eye on it and turn it on again when it turns off. It’s not exactly difficult to miss the giant flag on your back.

Different people have different visual processing, so what’s very easy for some to notice is not at all easy for others. I can see my flag clearly when I’m by myself outside of combat, but the flag gets hopelessly lost in the visual business of fights.

When my group’s on Orphic, for example, and we have numerous hot pink AoEs of Death competing to kill all of us at any given time, plus a massive sparkly boss rampaging around to follow, an angy Xoryn popping up in unexpected places, Ruinachs pirouetting through group, and especially towards the end a crowd of gloom shapers channeling their tiny little hearts out, my character is absolutely the last thing I can see clearly and quickly in the middle of all that.

So I use the banner icon on my skill bar, since the skill bar is much easier for me to distinguish as a visual layer separate from the fight and my eyes are there every so often to double check timers. I won’t necessarily catch it the very second it drops, but within a few seconds, and it’s rare enough that this way works for me when watching my flag would just result in needing to be rezzed on repeat.

I do see the arguments for the upsides of the cost change. It’s the auto-off aspect that I find yet another stressor when I least need it. Banner doesn’t drop for me when things go well, so this is something for me to remember to check on only in the middle of the extra stress of trying to recover from something unexpected. That’s the harder part of this change for me — the processing in content, not the resource cost.

katanagirl1

I was rather dismayed to see that my banner skill was just taken off the skill bar with no warning. I didn’t see any mention of it here in the forums before that. Were they concerned too many people would get mad about the change? After posts saying it is now worthless came up here, I decided to try out the new version.

It’s okay I guess. As a non-subclassed stamina arcanist I tend to run low on magicka anyway so I did have the banner drop for me now. I swear it has done that a few times in the past too, though. It is still useful because you can flail much less and save stamina.

I do like the idea about it just stop working when it gets low instead of dropping completely.

virtus753

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I was rather dismayed to see that my banner skill was just taken off the skill bar with no warning. I didn’t see any mention of it here in the forums before that. Were they concerned too many people would get mad about the change? After posts saying it is now worthless came up here, I decided to try out the new version.

It was mentioned somewhere in the middle of the skill section of the patch notes for the update (Scribing > General):

"Whenever a Scribed ability receives major changes in behavior or balance, that ability will be reset to its base form and will require reselection of the Scripts you would like to combine. During this process, 3 Luminous Ink will be granted to each character who previously had selected the changed Scribed ability.

[Developer Comment]
Due to how Scribed abilities are made under the hood, when they receive larger adjustments, we need to go through a process called "versioning" which effectively states which "version" of the ability is being addressed. When your character logs in and has a Scribed ability already made, their version of the ability will be matched to the server's version. When a mismatch occurs, a re-specification will activate, and the Scribed ability will enter its unspecified state. Since selecting scripts comes at a resource cost, we're making sure that cost will always be refunded, so you do not lose resources in the process."

(The link goes to the PC version of the notes, but this note also exists for the PS and Xbox versions too.)

It was removed from our bars because it was reset completely and it'd probably feel disingenuous to leave it slotted without a clear indication it was no longer functional. Did you get the Ink refund? If not, you might write to Support?

Soarora

virtus753 wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I was rather dismayed to see that my banner skill was just taken off the skill bar with no warning. I didn’t see any mention of it here in the forums before that. Were they concerned too many people would get mad about the change? After posts saying it is now worthless came up here, I decided to try out the new version.

It was mentioned somewhere in the middle of the skill section of the patch notes for the update (Scribing > General):

"Whenever a Scribed ability receives major changes in behavior or balance, that ability will be reset to its base form and will require reselection of the Scripts you would like to combine. During this process, 3 Luminous Ink will be granted to each character who previously had selected the changed Scribed ability.

[Developer Comment]
Due to how Scribed abilities are made under the hood, when they receive larger adjustments, we need to go through a process called "versioning" which effectively states which "version" of the ability is being addressed. When your character logs in and has a Scribed ability already made, their version of the ability will be matched to the server's version. When a mismatch occurs, a re-specification will activate, and the Scribed ability will enter its unspecified state. Since selecting scripts comes at a resource cost, we're making sure that cost will always be refunded, so you do not lose resources in the process."

(The link goes to the PC version of the notes, but this note also exists for the PS and Xbox versions too.)

It was removed from our bars because it was reset completely and it'd probably feel disingenuous to leave it slotted without a clear indication it was no longer functional. Did you get the Ink refund? If not, you might write to Support?

+ You got an in-game mail saying, in roleplay words, that your ability must be re-scribed.

wolfie1.0.

Banner was too powerful so they nerfed it

Desiato

A trick I use in trials is turning it off during moments of opportunity. For example, between trash pulls if the group is pushing the pace and while crossing bridges during the Kaz fight in vOC.