Is it true you can get banned by AI in zone chat?

Soarora

Syldras wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

To British people, the word refers to cigarettes. To Americans, it’s a slur against gay people. But also at least some gay people have reclaimed the word.

In theory, everyone can insult themselves how ever they want, it's no one else's business. I see doing it publicly critically, though, for 2 reasons: Everyone could throw around the crassest slurs for "fun" and then just claim it's okay because they belong to that group, which in some cases can't be proven or disproven easily. Bystanders who are confronted with these words as insults regularly might not find hearing them to be empowering at all.

Private conversation, of course, is something different, but then the only thing that matters is consent anyway, no matter what topics are discussed, themes roleplayed, or swear words used.

Anyway, I generally don't think there should be some auto-report function in general. If something comes across as insulting or inappropriate, people can just report it. I'd rather see a focus on reacting on these reports in a reasonable way.

Agreed. If someone has a problem with a word being used they can talk to the person and/or report it. It does not need to be auto-flagged because in group, zone (in a house), dm, guild, etc. channels there very well could be a cultural or personal understanding between people where certain words are completely fine.
In overland zone chat, people should be more careful of what they say, but in those channels people are more likely to report anyways.

blktauna

I have just learned an EU guildmate was given a final warning from AI moderation while trying to help some new players... His ESO plus was cancelled and he can not use chat...

What on earth is this nonsense?

This guy is always helping folks and doesn't even use foul language. How is this sort of nonsense happening?

@ZOS_Kevin what can be done to address this???

SolarRune

When this has come up before ZoS has said all bans etc are performed by a person but the issue may be flagged to that person by automated means.

If they admitted to using AI for automatic decision making there could potentially be issues because for some regions there are laws about being able to opt out of AI made decisions, and because it's laws you cannot overwrite this by saying it's in the terms of service (you can't put illegal things in ToS).

Gabriel_H

Soarora wrote: »

joshisanonymous wrote: »

It would be nice for ZoS to clarify how this works here, but if you have so much experience getting banned in games for your language then maybe the problem is your language and not that you have to avoid games that use AI for moderation. It's not exactly a new thing -- keyword triggers are essentially really basic "AI" -- it's just more sophisticated now. Of course, it's still not gonna be perfect no matter what method they use, but I've never heard of someone receiving an accidental ban in ESO without it quickly being overturned.

I get your point but I feel like it’s wrong to moderate peoples language when no one is harmed by it (aka no one reported it). Especially since this game is available outside of America where cultural sensitivities differ. Like, if an American called me the “c-word” that’s different than if an Australian did because it’s potentially coming from different views of the word (a slur vs harmless banter).

Also, this is not a children’s game. As far as I’ve seen, adults are not going to change their language because a game told them that word is bad. So, theres no learning potential like with a kids game.

ZOS don't have a choice. They are required to moderate the chat by both UK and EU law. The UK law is the more stringent of the two especially around harmful content and children, and while ESO is an 18 PEGI rating in the UK, the law requires that moderation take account that children (under 18) may be playing, which of course they do because some parents allow it.

Gabriel_H

JustLovely wrote: »

This is one of the reasons I've virtually quit playing. It's crazy disrespectful of their customers and in my view a lazy solution to a made up problem. No ban should ever take place without a human reviewing the details and proof. AI is not that reliable yet.

It's required for them to do by law. ANY game that has a public/group chat function has to do this.

Gabriel_H

Desiato wrote: »

So be careful about that you chat about in ESO because even if you're not banned, there could be customer service representatives reading your conversations without your knowledge. There is no such thing as a private conversation in ESO.

There is no such thing as a private conversation in ANY game that has a public/group chat function and is targetted for sale in the UK/EU. It is not ZOS, it is the law.

kurbbie_s

Danikat wrote: »

I've only heard this mentioned on the forum, no one I've encountered in-game seems concerned about it. Of course if they were really paranoid they wouldn't be using in-game chat, but I've not seen anyone warning other people to be careful about what they say or anything like that, and chat seems as busy as it ever was so it doesn't appear to be putting people off, at least not on PC EU.

Some people are going to run into problems with any type of moderation. If that wasn't the case there wouldn't need to be rules because everyone would behave appropriately without needing to be told what that means.

But it seems like as long as you avoid insults, including ones you think are funny, you'll be ok.

i dont use in game chat because of this. So, yeah youre wrong.

kurbbie_s

Xarc wrote: »

Destai wrote: »

I personally avoid chat in this game entirely. It’s not worth the stress to wonder if some inane mistake is going to cost me my account. There’s too much conflicting information on how AI moderation was implemented. Would rather gold spammers dealt with.

It's a mmo, not a solo game...

are you at least using vocal?

no? why would it? All it takes is 1 person to ruin your game.

MalaVrazica

Never though this would happen to me, to be banned for nothing....
but here we go...


this is depressing...

scrappy1342

JustLovely wrote: »

ZOS updated it's ToS last year to include that we are accepting AI moderation and monitoring while playing ESO.

When they first implemented the system all kinds of people were being autobanned for absolutely nothing. They seem to have fine tuned their algorithm so there aren't as many undearned bans from their AI moderation system, but it's still FAR from perfect. People are still being autobanned for nothing.

This is one of the reasons I've virtually quit playing. It's crazy disrespectful of their customers and in my view a lazy solution to a made up problem. No ban should ever take place without a human reviewing the details and proof. AI is not that reliable yet.

and then there's ppl clearly violating things that slip on by. reported a guy in zone chat yesterday literally telling ppl to bite his balls... "it was determined that no violation of the ZeniMax Terms of Service or Code of Conduct occurred." have reported ppl who were giving extremely detailed and graphic descriptions of sexual acts and *** in zone chat with the same results. now, i don't think these ppl should be banned forever. maybe not even temporarily, but AT THE VERY LEAST zos should tell them "hey, this is not ok." add this to the growing list of reasons i've dropped my sub and don't play much at all anymore...

scrappy1342

have not figured out how to edit my post, but if i can't even say the thing that they were talking about without being censored, i don't see how that was even remotely not a violation of code of conduct...

ragnarok6644b14_ESO

MalaVrazica wrote: »

Never though this would happen to me, to be banned for nothing....
but here we go...


this is depressing...

What does this have to do with banned for chatting? 3rd party chat software?

Also, for all the people saying "AI doesn't have the cultural context": most humans don't either. I certainly would not know that there's a Portugese word that sounds like an American swear word, for example. I don't think most game chat moderators are linguists...

DenverRalphy

MalaVrazica wrote: »

Never though this would happen to me, to be banned for nothing....
but here we go...
<snipped image for brevity>
this is depressing...

Getting banned for cheating/botting isn't nothing.

Xarc

DenverRalphy wrote: »

MalaVrazica wrote: »

Never though this would happen to me, to be banned for nothing....
but here we go...
<snipped image for brevity>
this is depressing...

Getting banned for cheating/botting isn't nothing.

I guess he wanted to suggest he was innocent.

Syldras

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

Also, for all the people saying "AI doesn't have the cultural context": most humans don't either. I certainly would not know that there's a Portugese word that sounds like an American swear word, for example. I don't think most game chat moderators are linguists...

But a human would see the context in which the word is used: Another language. And if it turns up regularly mid-sentence you could probably guess it's an ordinary word. And then, a human could still throw it into a translator to check what the whole sentence means. A bot doesn't do that.

MalaVrazica

DenverRalphy wrote: »

MalaVrazica wrote: »

Never though this would happen to me, to be banned for nothing....
but here we go...
<snipped image for brevity>
this is depressing...

Getting banned for cheating/botting isn't nothing.

You are correct, It isn't nothing... when i played this game for 11+ years... to log in one day and find out i've been banned for not doing anything that is prohibited. Even if i get my account unbanned not sure this game is worth investing time into it anymore when you can just loose it.

ragnarok6644b14_ESO

Syldras wrote: »

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

Also, for all the people saying "AI doesn't have the cultural context": most humans don't either. I certainly would not know that there's a Portugese word that sounds like an American swear word, for example. I don't think most game chat moderators are linguists...

But a human would see the context in which the word is used: Another language. And if it turns up regularly mid-sentence you could probably guess it's an ordinary word. And then, a human could still throw it into a translator to check what the whole sentence means. A bot doesn't do that.

I think an AI can recognize what language a sentence is in, and would be empowered to either use a translator or flag it for a human if it still thought there was a problem.

What you are suggesting isn't an AI or even a bot, it's a linear system of "I see letters that make bad word, I ban." which is kinda how the profanity filter works (which is why it's so dogcrap) but I think is self-evidently a bad way to moderate for all the reasons posted here; likely, ZOS's system is more complex than this.

What I suspect is happening is a system is keeping track of the number of reports/potential violations, and when a certain threshold of reports/potential violations is reached, a person is investigated (possibly banned outright before they dialed back the power of the detector/bot to ban without human input, if it was doing so). The message that crosses this threshold may be minor by comparison to prior messages, but it gets "thrown on the stack" and dragged down by the other messages/number of reports. That's how I'd design a system (if I didn't see it fail) and also how I'd see it fail (when it inevitably failed).

Renato90085

just want ask,I remember some time(I think last year) have some player join my guild and use our language say many bad word use google translate(main is racism) and wait we kick they,Is this related to it?

DenverRalphy

MalaVrazica wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

MalaVrazica wrote: »

Never though this would happen to me, to be banned for nothing....
but here we go...
<snipped image for brevity>
this is depressing...

Getting banned for cheating/botting isn't nothing.

You are correct, It isn't nothing... when i played this game for 11+ years... to log in one day and find out i've been banned for not doing anything that is prohibited. Even if i get my account unbanned not sure this game is worth investing time into it anymore when you can just loose it.

In a reality where acknowledging complicity isn't exactly the hallmark of a guilty party, you need to have some substantive material to back up an allegation of wrongdoing on ZOS' part if you're going to allege they banned you for doing nothing. After all, something triggered an anti-cheat protocol. You have to be able to identify what that is if you're going to make an accusation of wrongdoing.

Unfadingsilence

MalaVrazica wrote: »

Never though this would happen to me, to be banned for nothing....
but here we go...


this is depressing...

I've been seeing ppl getting banned for using the updated nvidia DLSS setting and even on the Nvidia app it gives you a warning about changing the settings in ESO since it can suspect cheating

sarahthes

DenverRalphy wrote: »

MalaVrazica wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

MalaVrazica wrote: »

Never though this would happen to me, to be banned for nothing....
but here we go...
<snipped image for brevity>
this is depressing...

Getting banned for cheating/botting isn't nothing.

You are correct, It isn't nothing... when i played this game for 11+ years... to log in one day and find out i've been banned for not doing anything that is prohibited. Even if i get my account unbanned not sure this game is worth investing time into it anymore when you can just loose it.

In a reality where acknowledging complicity isn't exactly the hallmark of a guilty party, you need to have some substantive material to back up an allegation of wrongdoing on ZOS' part if you're going to allege they banned you for doing nothing. After all, something triggered an anti-cheat protocol. You have to be able to identify what that is if you're going to make an accusation of wrongdoing.

If you read the message it's a temporary suspension. That suggested an automated or semi automated account sweep using anti cheat tools which will be manually reviewed afterwards and false positives released. This implies that they know their tool is prone to false positives but that they have additional criteria that are manually checked before the suspension is turned into a full ban.

JustLovely

Gabriel_H wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

This is one of the reasons I've virtually quit playing. It's crazy disrespectful of their customers and in my view a lazy solution to a made up problem. No ban should ever take place without a human reviewing the details and proof. AI is not that reliable yet.

It's required for them to do by law. ANY game that has a public/group chat function has to do this.

The law is what's written in the US Constitution. There is this thing called the first amendment that mandates free speech as being acceptable outside of speech that threatens the well being of other people or their property.

SolarRune wrote: »

When this has come up before ZoS has said all bans etc are performed by a person but the issue may be flagged to that person by automated means.

If they admitted to using AI for automatic decision making there could potentially be issues because for some regions there are laws about being able to opt out of AI made decisions, and because it's laws you cannot overwrite this by saying it's in the terms of service (you can't put illegal things in ToS).

The ToS specifically states that we must agree to AI moderation (including being banned by AI moderation) in order to log in and play the game.

freespirit

JustLovely wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

This is one of the reasons I've virtually quit playing. It's crazy disrespectful of their customers and in my view a lazy solution to a made up problem. No ban should ever take place without a human reviewing the details and proof. AI is not that reliable yet.

It's required for them to do by law. ANY game that has a public/group chat function has to do this.

The law is what's written in the US Constitution. There is this thing called the first amendment that mandates free speech as being acceptable outside of speech that threatens the well being of other people or their property.

SolarRune wrote: »

When this has come up before ZoS has said all bans etc are performed by a person but the issue may be flagged to that person by automated means.

If they admitted to using AI for automatic decision making there could potentially be issues because for some regions there are laws about being able to opt out of AI made decisions, and because it's laws you cannot overwrite this by saying it's in the terms of service (you can't put illegal things in ToS).

The ToS specifically states that we must agree to AI moderation (including being banned by AI moderation) in order to log in and play the game.

Sorry but American law does not cover ZoS in the EU/UK they have to abide by those laws too!!

Soarora

JustLovely wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

This is one of the reasons I've virtually quit playing. It's crazy disrespectful of their customers and in my view a lazy solution to a made up problem. No ban should ever take place without a human reviewing the details and proof. AI is not that reliable yet.

It's required for them to do by law. ANY game that has a public/group chat function has to do this.

The law is what's written in the US Constitution. There is this thing called the first amendment that mandates free speech as being acceptable outside of speech that threatens the well being of other people or their property.

SolarRune wrote: »

When this has come up before ZoS has said all bans etc are performed by a person but the issue may be flagged to that person by automated means.

If they admitted to using AI for automatic decision making there could potentially be issues because for some regions there are laws about being able to opt out of AI made decisions, and because it's laws you cannot overwrite this by saying it's in the terms of service (you can't put illegal things in ToS).

The ToS specifically states that we must agree to AI moderation (including being banned by AI moderation) in order to log in and play the game.

The US Constitution does not apply to people who don’t live in the US… it doesn’t matter that ZOS is an American company, they have to follow the rules of every country. For instance, Crown crates are not available in countries that have banned loot boxes.

Also the US Constitution is only between the People and the Government, nothing to do with corporations.

The TOS change is recent I believe.

JustLovely

freespirit wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

This is one of the reasons I've virtually quit playing. It's crazy disrespectful of their customers and in my view a lazy solution to a made up problem. No ban should ever take place without a human reviewing the details and proof. AI is not that reliable yet.

It's required for them to do by law. ANY game that has a public/group chat function has to do this.

The law is what's written in the US Constitution. There is this thing called the first amendment that mandates free speech as being acceptable outside of speech that threatens the well being of other people or their property.

SolarRune wrote: »

When this has come up before ZoS has said all bans etc are performed by a person but the issue may be flagged to that person by automated means.

If they admitted to using AI for automatic decision making there could potentially be issues because for some regions there are laws about being able to opt out of AI made decisions, and because it's laws you cannot overwrite this by saying it's in the terms of service (you can't put illegal things in ToS).

The ToS specifically states that we must agree to AI moderation (including being banned by AI moderation) in order to log in and play the game.

Sorry but American law does not cover ZoS in the EU/UK they have to abide by those laws too!!

Soarora wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

This is one of the reasons I've virtually quit playing. It's crazy disrespectful of their customers and in my view a lazy solution to a made up problem. No ban should ever take place without a human reviewing the details and proof. AI is not that reliable yet.

It's required for them to do by law. ANY game that has a public/group chat function has to do this.

The law is what's written in the US Constitution. There is this thing called the first amendment that mandates free speech as being acceptable outside of speech that threatens the well being of other people or their property.

SolarRune wrote: »

When this has come up before ZoS has said all bans etc are performed by a person but the issue may be flagged to that person by automated means.

If they admitted to using AI for automatic decision making there could potentially be issues because for some regions there are laws about being able to opt out of AI made decisions, and because it's laws you cannot overwrite this by saying it's in the terms of service (you can't put illegal things in ToS).

The ToS specifically states that we must agree to AI moderation (including being banned by AI moderation) in order to log in and play the game.

The US Constitution does not apply to people who don’t live in the US… it doesn’t matter that ZOS is an American company, they have to follow the rules of every country. For instance, Crown crates are not available in countries that have banned loot boxes.

Also the US Constitution is only between the People and the Government, nothing to do with corporations.

The TOS change is recent I believe.

Sure enough. Different countries have different laws that have to be enforced nation by nation. It's a new era even in the US, but we certainly have traditionally had freedom of speech in the USA, even when dealing with private businesses.

Vonnegut2506

MalaVrazica wrote: »

Never though this would happen to me, to be banned for nothing....
but here we go...


this is depressing...

You weren't banned; you were suspended while they investigate.

AngryPenguin

Vonnegut2506 wrote: »

MalaVrazica wrote: »

Never though this would happen to me, to be banned for nothing....
but here we go...


this is depressing...

You weren't banned; you were suspended while they investigate.

Suspension = banned until further notice

In other words, a suspension means assumed guilty until something can prove your innocence. ...something that is uncommonly challenging when dealing with ZOS.

DenverRalphy

kurbbie_s wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

This is one of the reasons I've virtually quit playing. It's crazy disrespectful of their customers and in my view a lazy solution to a made up problem. No ban should ever take place without a human reviewing the details and proof. AI is not that reliable yet.

It's required for them to do by law. ANY game that has a public/group chat function has to do this.

no, no they dont. Lol, every other game online doesnt adhere to other countries laws. Theyre only subject to their own countries. You can scream it as much as you like, but youre incorrect.

If they want people in those other countries to be able to purchase and play their game they do.

ragnarok6644b14_ESO

The Constitution says the government will respect the rights of the people in the US. That doesn't apply to corporations (never has. You can be fired for saying something that is legal to say for example).

One can wonder whether the government itself respects the constitution as well but that is off topic.

spartaxoxo

JustLovely wrote: »

freespirit wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

This is one of the reasons I've virtually quit playing. It's crazy disrespectful of their customers and in my view a lazy solution to a made up problem. No ban should ever take place without a human reviewing the details and proof. AI is not that reliable yet.

It's required for them to do by law. ANY game that has a public/group chat function has to do this.

The law is what's written in the US Constitution. There is this thing called the first amendment that mandates free speech as being acceptable outside of speech that threatens the well being of other people or their property.

SolarRune wrote: »

When this has come up before ZoS has said all bans etc are performed by a person but the issue may be flagged to that person by automated means.

If they admitted to using AI for automatic decision making there could potentially be issues because for some regions there are laws about being able to opt out of AI made decisions, and because it's laws you cannot overwrite this by saying it's in the terms of service (you can't put illegal things in ToS).

The ToS specifically states that we must agree to AI moderation (including being banned by AI moderation) in order to log in and play the game.

Sorry but American law does not cover ZoS in the EU/UK they have to abide by those laws too!!

Soarora wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

This is one of the reasons I've virtually quit playing. It's crazy disrespectful of their customers and in my view a lazy solution to a made up problem. No ban should ever take place without a human reviewing the details and proof. AI is not that reliable yet.

It's required for them to do by law. ANY game that has a public/group chat function has to do this.

The law is what's written in the US Constitution. There is this thing called the first amendment that mandates free speech as being acceptable outside of speech that threatens the well being of other people or their property.

SolarRune wrote: »

When this has come up before ZoS has said all bans etc are performed by a person but the issue may be flagged to that person by automated means.

If they admitted to using AI for automatic decision making there could potentially be issues because for some regions there are laws about being able to opt out of AI made decisions, and because it's laws you cannot overwrite this by saying it's in the terms of service (you can't put illegal things in ToS).

The ToS specifically states that we must agree to AI moderation (including being banned by AI moderation) in order to log in and play the game.

The US Constitution does not apply to people who don’t live in the US… it doesn’t matter that ZOS is an American company, they have to follow the rules of every country. For instance, Crown crates are not available in countries that have banned loot boxes.

Also the US Constitution is only between the People and the Government, nothing to do with corporations.

The TOS change is recent I believe.

Sure enough. Different countries have different laws that have to be enforced nation by nation. It's a new era even in the US, but we certainly have traditionally had freedom of speech in the USA, even when dealing with private businesses.

Freedom of speech does not include and has not included private property. People have been thrown out of clubs for being annoying for ages, for example, long before the internet even existed. Or fired for telling off their boss.