Subclassing for Casuals

FoJul

This may be a terrible idea, but maybe can Devs use spreadsheets of common Skill lines combined on each class, and create a "Subclass template". Something like this will be needed, so that even casuals have a good chance of picking right skill lines to help their build.

Essentially, somewhere around 1 build template for each role DPS, Heals, Tank, and PvP.

I'd hate to see the newer players and casuals get left even further behind, because of veterans already knowing every little gimmick of every skill line.

robpr

I doubt devs will do that. Why? It encourages to have multiple toons that need to be leveled, mount trained, skysharded, researched, etc - more potential money.

valenwood_vegan

Totally agree, more casual players likely aren't familiar with all of the skill lines. I know some players who only know one class or 1-2 classes. They will have a much more difficult time trying to figure out subclassing, and it's likely that it will become even easier to create "bad builds" that are even worse than current ones. They (and new players) may be absolutely overwhelmed with choices and information now. I don't know if actual templates are the best solution, but the game can already be rather overwhelming for new players.

This reminds me of a related issue... will the "skills advisor" that pops up as players are leveling be updated to reflect subclassing? It's already kinda outdated and not useful, but I can see new players getting very confused by it with subclassing.

FoJul

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

Totally agree, more casual players likely aren't familiar with all of the skill lines. I know some players who only know one class or 1-2 classes. They will have a much more difficult time trying to figure out subclassing, and it's likely that it will become even easier to create "bad builds" that are even worse than current ones. They (and new players) may be absolutely overwhelmed with choices and information now. I don't know if actual templates are the best solution, but the game can already be rather overwhelming for new players.

This reminds me of a related issue... will the "skills advisor" that pops up as players are leveling be updated to reflect subclassing? It's already kinda outdated and not useful, but I can see new players getting very confused by it with subclassing.

Yeah, I've already been talking to some of my more casual friends about the update, and yet they are excited, they are kind of upset, because like you said they play 1-2 classes. Maybe templates isn't the best method.

I don't think relying on a website like Alcast is very casual either.

Major_Toughness

FoJul wrote: »

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

Totally agree, more casual players likely aren't familiar with all of the skill lines. I know some players who only know one class or 1-2 classes. They will have a much more difficult time trying to figure out subclassing, and it's likely that it will become even easier to create "bad builds" that are even worse than current ones. They (and new players) may be absolutely overwhelmed with choices and information now. I don't know if actual templates are the best solution, but the game can already be rather overwhelming for new players.

This reminds me of a related issue... will the "skills advisor" that pops up as players are leveling be updated to reflect subclassing? It's already kinda outdated and not useful, but I can see new players getting very confused by it with subclassing.

Yeah, I've already been talking to some of my more casual friends about the update, and yet they are excited, they are kind of upset, because like you said they play 1-2 classes. Maybe templates isn't the best method.

I don't think relying on a website like Alcast is very casual either.

What is the difference in relying on data from one site or the other?
Casuals already just take builds from Alcast or Xynode.

Plus they would have to already have leveled the class to 50 in the skill lines, in order to use them via subclassing, so should know them.

FoJul

Major_Toughness wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

Totally agree, more casual players likely aren't familiar with all of the skill lines. I know some players who only know one class or 1-2 classes. They will have a much more difficult time trying to figure out subclassing, and it's likely that it will become even easier to create "bad builds" that are even worse than current ones. They (and new players) may be absolutely overwhelmed with choices and information now. I don't know if actual templates are the best solution, but the game can already be rather overwhelming for new players.

This reminds me of a related issue... will the "skills advisor" that pops up as players are leveling be updated to reflect subclassing? It's already kinda outdated and not useful, but I can see new players getting very confused by it with subclassing.

Yeah, I've already been talking to some of my more casual friends about the update, and yet they are excited, they are kind of upset, because like you said they play 1-2 classes. Maybe templates isn't the best method.

I don't think relying on a website like Alcast is very casual either.

What is the difference in relying on data from one site or the other?
Casuals already just take builds from Alcast or Xynode.

Plus they would have to already have leveled the class to 50 in the skill lines, in order to use them via subclassing, so should know them.

So assuming you only play 1 class, you expect them to level all 18 other class skill lines and learn them all before settling on a playstyle?

The difference is, casuals aren't looking at Alcast or Xynode. Im sure a pretty big majority of people dont care about other websites. Ik most veterans laugh at those guides.

This is not the point, the point is to allow casuals or newcomers access to information that veteran players already are experienced with.

In addition, adding more information regarding calculations and hidden effects like status effects and etc.

Major_Toughness

FoJul wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

Totally agree, more casual players likely aren't familiar with all of the skill lines. I know some players who only know one class or 1-2 classes. They will have a much more difficult time trying to figure out subclassing, and it's likely that it will become even easier to create "bad builds" that are even worse than current ones. They (and new players) may be absolutely overwhelmed with choices and information now. I don't know if actual templates are the best solution, but the game can already be rather overwhelming for new players.

This reminds me of a related issue... will the "skills advisor" that pops up as players are leveling be updated to reflect subclassing? It's already kinda outdated and not useful, but I can see new players getting very confused by it with subclassing.

Yeah, I've already been talking to some of my more casual friends about the update, and yet they are excited, they are kind of upset, because like you said they play 1-2 classes. Maybe templates isn't the best method.

I don't think relying on a website like Alcast is very casual either.

What is the difference in relying on data from one site or the other?
Casuals already just take builds from Alcast or Xynode.

Plus they would have to already have leveled the class to 50 in the skill lines, in order to use them via subclassing, so should know them.

So assuming you only play 1 class, you expect them to level all 18 other class skill lines and learn them all before settling on a playstyle?

The difference is, casuals aren't looking at Alcast or Xynode. Im sure a pretty big majority of people dont care about other websites. Ik most veterans laugh at those guides.

This is not the point, the point is to allow casuals or newcomers access to information that veteran players already are experienced with.

In addition, adding more information regarding calculations and hidden effects like status effects and etc.

Casuals ARE looking at Alcast and Xynode, because you see people using those peoples builds You even said yourself that "veterans" laugh at those guides, yet so many people are using them. Why? Because the casuals are using them.

There is so much information already out there. You can see every skill, up to date, on like 5 different websites.

So you didn't answer me, why would the devs writing up every skill, make a "casual who doesn't read any guides", read the guide?

Baertram

robpr wrote: »

I doubt devs will do that. Why? It encourages to have multiple toons that need to be leveled, mount trained, skysharded, researched, etc - more potential money.

I can see that this might be the idea but I also clearly see that I would not do that, and rather leave the game then. So no money at all And I heard of other players thinking the same already.

We'll see what comes up, for the moment it sounds interesting to me. But if not, and it leads to "having to farm" things to play properly in groups, I can see lots of players saying "no thank you" (especially if you need to pay a season pass in addition).

FoJul

Major_Toughness wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

Totally agree, more casual players likely aren't familiar with all of the skill lines. I know some players who only know one class or 1-2 classes. They will have a much more difficult time trying to figure out subclassing, and it's likely that it will become even easier to create "bad builds" that are even worse than current ones. They (and new players) may be absolutely overwhelmed with choices and information now. I don't know if actual templates are the best solution, but the game can already be rather overwhelming for new players.

This reminds me of a related issue... will the "skills advisor" that pops up as players are leveling be updated to reflect subclassing? It's already kinda outdated and not useful, but I can see new players getting very confused by it with subclassing.

Yeah, I've already been talking to some of my more casual friends about the update, and yet they are excited, they are kind of upset, because like you said they play 1-2 classes. Maybe templates isn't the best method.

I don't think relying on a website like Alcast is very casual either.

What is the difference in relying on data from one site or the other?
Casuals already just take builds from Alcast or Xynode.

Plus they would have to already have leveled the class to 50 in the skill lines, in order to use them via subclassing, so should know them.

So assuming you only play 1 class, you expect them to level all 18 other class skill lines and learn them all before settling on a playstyle?

The difference is, casuals aren't looking at Alcast or Xynode. Im sure a pretty big majority of people dont care about other websites. Ik most veterans laugh at those guides.

This is not the point, the point is to allow casuals or newcomers access to information that veteran players already are experienced with.

In addition, adding more information regarding calculations and hidden effects like status effects and etc.

Casuals ARE looking at Alcast and Xynode, because you see people using those peoples builds You even said yourself that "veterans" laugh at those guides, yet so many people are using them. Why? Because the casuals are using them.

There is so much information already out there. You can see every skill, up to date, on like 5 different websites.

So you didn't answer me, why would the devs writing up every skill, make a "casual who doesn't read any guides", read the guide?

It acts as in game guide, something the game should do already. Having to outsource internet web pages for basics is absurd.

ESO has a hard time teaching casuals and newcomers the things they need. This has been a discussion forever, and now adding this much complexity all at once, I genuinely feel bad for others that aren't *as good* or new players that struggle to catch up.

Major_Toughness

FoJul wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

Totally agree, more casual players likely aren't familiar with all of the skill lines. I know some players who only know one class or 1-2 classes. They will have a much more difficult time trying to figure out subclassing, and it's likely that it will become even easier to create "bad builds" that are even worse than current ones. They (and new players) may be absolutely overwhelmed with choices and information now. I don't know if actual templates are the best solution, but the game can already be rather overwhelming for new players.

This reminds me of a related issue... will the "skills advisor" that pops up as players are leveling be updated to reflect subclassing? It's already kinda outdated and not useful, but I can see new players getting very confused by it with subclassing.

Yeah, I've already been talking to some of my more casual friends about the update, and yet they are excited, they are kind of upset, because like you said they play 1-2 classes. Maybe templates isn't the best method.

I don't think relying on a website like Alcast is very casual either.

What is the difference in relying on data from one site or the other?
Casuals already just take builds from Alcast or Xynode.

Plus they would have to already have leveled the class to 50 in the skill lines, in order to use them via subclassing, so should know them.

So assuming you only play 1 class, you expect them to level all 18 other class skill lines and learn them all before settling on a playstyle?

The difference is, casuals aren't looking at Alcast or Xynode. Im sure a pretty big majority of people dont care about other websites. Ik most veterans laugh at those guides.

This is not the point, the point is to allow casuals or newcomers access to information that veteran players already are experienced with.

In addition, adding more information regarding calculations and hidden effects like status effects and etc.

Casuals ARE looking at Alcast and Xynode, because you see people using those peoples builds You even said yourself that "veterans" laugh at those guides, yet so many people are using them. Why? Because the casuals are using them.

There is so much information already out there. You can see every skill, up to date, on like 5 different websites.

So you didn't answer me, why would the devs writing up every skill, make a "casual who doesn't read any guides", read the guide?

It acts as in game guide, something the game should do already. Having to outsource internet web pages for basics is absurd.

ESO has a hard time teaching casuals and newcomers the things they need. This has been a discussion forever, and now adding this much complexity all at once, I genuinely feel bad for others that aren't *as good* or new players that struggle to catch up.

Yes, the game needs to do better at informing people, especially of the basics.

I just don't understand the demographic you are trying to reach. People who care about their build will look at guides.
People who do not care will choose whatever they find fun, and will learn as they play the game, like the probably already do.
You can also see all non-morph skills from the subclassing menu, for all classes, at the same time. You just have to expand the class and lines.

FoJul

Major_Toughness wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

Totally agree, more casual players likely aren't familiar with all of the skill lines. I know some players who only know one class or 1-2 classes. They will have a much more difficult time trying to figure out subclassing, and it's likely that it will become even easier to create "bad builds" that are even worse than current ones. They (and new players) may be absolutely overwhelmed with choices and information now. I don't know if actual templates are the best solution, but the game can already be rather overwhelming for new players.

This reminds me of a related issue... will the "skills advisor" that pops up as players are leveling be updated to reflect subclassing? It's already kinda outdated and not useful, but I can see new players getting very confused by it with subclassing.

Yeah, I've already been talking to some of my more casual friends about the update, and yet they are excited, they are kind of upset, because like you said they play 1-2 classes. Maybe templates isn't the best method.

I don't think relying on a website like Alcast is very casual either.

What is the difference in relying on data from one site or the other?
Casuals already just take builds from Alcast or Xynode.

Plus they would have to already have leveled the class to 50 in the skill lines, in order to use them via subclassing, so should know them.

So assuming you only play 1 class, you expect them to level all 18 other class skill lines and learn them all before settling on a playstyle?

The difference is, casuals aren't looking at Alcast or Xynode. Im sure a pretty big majority of people dont care about other websites. Ik most veterans laugh at those guides.

This is not the point, the point is to allow casuals or newcomers access to information that veteran players already are experienced with.

In addition, adding more information regarding calculations and hidden effects like status effects and etc.

Casuals ARE looking at Alcast and Xynode, because you see people using those peoples builds You even said yourself that "veterans" laugh at those guides, yet so many people are using them. Why? Because the casuals are using them.

There is so much information already out there. You can see every skill, up to date, on like 5 different websites.

So you didn't answer me, why would the devs writing up every skill, make a "casual who doesn't read any guides", read the guide?

It acts as in game guide, something the game should do already. Having to outsource internet web pages for basics is absurd.

ESO has a hard time teaching casuals and newcomers the things they need. This has been a discussion forever, and now adding this much complexity all at once, I genuinely feel bad for others that aren't *as good* or new players that struggle to catch up.

Yes, the game needs to do better at informing people, especially of the basics.

I just don't understand the demographic you are trying to reach. People who care about their build will look at guides.
People who do not care will choose whatever they find fun, and will learn as they play the game, like the probably already do.
You can also see all non-morph skills from the subclassing menu, for all classes, at the same time. You just have to expand the class and lines.

Trying to reach out for casuals, because I can almost guarantee you they are not on the forums. I have several relatives that play this game that I consider casuals, and I argue their pain points all the time.

When my grandpa gets on this game, he has only played one class, thats the templar. When I tell him he can use other skills, he already asked me how is that going to work. Obviously its a new concept so its fresh and makes little to no sense to him. I started showing him some things on the PTS, and he said thats way to complicated, Im just going to stick with what I got.

This is probably going to reoccur more than people realize. I also don't think people realize how many casuals there truly is. You can go and quest or farm nodes and run into more casuals than experienced players.

That being said, like I stated in the OP, I think there should literally be Templates (Preferably collected data on most popular choices for that class) For example, on his templar, he may see siphoning be a good replacement for restoring light, or something similar. Maybe even a few options for like DPS run these 3 skill lines, it covers *insert list of buffs and side effects*.

In comments later, I also added that there is no real description on how important light attack/heavy attacks/Status effects/Off balance mechanics/etc/etc/etc.

Never once has any of my relatives ever look at another website for a game. Unless it was support/buying something extra.