Subclassing Is a Huge Step Forward — Let’s Go Even Further

QB1

With the news of subclassing being added to ESO, I have to admit that I’m thrilled. This is exactly the kind of evolution the game needs, imo. Huge props to ZOS for taking this step, subclassing opens up so many creative possibilities and addresses a long-standing community desire for more customization within the existing class framework. Scribing and skill styling have also added a ton of build customization as well.

That said, I’d love to see this as a stepping stone toward an entirely classless system in the future.

Here’s why:

Creative Freedom: A classless system would allow players to fully express their playstyle without being locked into a single class identity. The game already has a strong foundation of skill lines that can be mixed and matched, expanding that further only enhances the sandbox feel.

Ease of Future Content: Instead of ZOS having to design and balance entire new classes (which is a massive lift), a classless system would make it easier to add new single skill lines without breaking the game.

Balance Opportunities: Instead of balancing whole classes, the devs could focus on tweaking individual skill lines, passives, and synergies, making the meta more dynamic and shifting.

I understand a move to full classless would be a huge change and likely not feasible overnight, but subclassing is a fantastic step in the right direction. It shows that ZOS is listening and willing to evolve the game systems.

ESO has the best combat system in any MMO, and giving players more freedom to explore it their way only strengthens that.

Curious what others think. Would you support the game moving toward a classless system in the future?

xR3ACTORx

(solved)

zombievalen

As always, one combination is going to be OP and everyone is going to use the same one. The DKs will surely put the Arcanist Ray on it ja ja

Seriously, it's time for Arcanists to stop being 90% of the roster (https://es.esologs.com/zone/rankings/18?metric=playerscore&partition=24&class=DPS) and at the other extreme, Wardens aren't DPS (in serious content).

I think the developers have finally realized that they need to make it so that all classes can, at least without too much difference, play all roles FOR REAL and I applaud that.

Stx

Subclassing sounds super fun to play around with.

However, they will need to put some serious effort into balancing ALL class skill lines. And unfortunately ZOS doesn’t have a good record of balancing. They balance very infrequently and when they do, the decisions they make are questionable.

I’m rooting for them, because this idea has incredible potential. But yeah each class has a few things that just stand out as overloaded abilities and they need to make sure that each skill line as a whole offers the same value whether that’s through an ability or passives.

QB1

zombievalen wrote: »

As always, one combination is going to be OP and everyone is going to use the same one. The DKs will surely put the Arcanist Ray on it ja ja

Seriously, it's time for Arcanists to stop being 90% of the roster (https://es.esologs.com/zone/rankings/18?metric=playerscore&partition=24&class=DPS) and at the other extreme, Wardens aren't DPS (in serious content).

I think the developers have finally realized that they need to make it so that all classes can, at least without too much difference, play all roles FOR REAL and I applaud that.

Spot on. The current meta shows just how unbalanced things have become. Arcanists dominating everything while other classes like Wardens barely show up unless they’re healing or tanking. If this shift means all classes can genuinely fill any role without being at a massive disadvantage, I think that’s a huge win.

QB1

Stx wrote: »

Subclassing sounds super fun to play around with.

However, they will need to put some serious effort into balancing ALL class skill lines. And unfortunately ZOS doesn’t have a good record of balancing. They balance very infrequently and when they do, the decisions they make are questionable.

I’m rooting for them, because this idea has incredible potential. But yeah each class has a few things that just stand out as overloaded abilities and they need to make sure that each skill line as a whole offers the same value whether that’s through an ability or passives.

I’m with you. This system could be incredible if they actually follow through with solid balance. But yeah, ZOS’s track record is... shaky at best. The core idea of subclassing is super exciting, but if one or two skill lines end up way ahead of the pack, we’ll just end up with the same cookie-cutter meta all over again. We need consistent and thoughtful tuning to really make this new system work.

xR3ACTORx

It's not even close to what's called "subclassing".

LittlePinkDot

And what about PvP?? I'm totally going to give haunting curse and hardened ward to a Templar.

QB1

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

And what about PvP?? I'm totally going to give haunting curse and hardened ward to a Templar.

Go for it

Wereswan

zombievalen wrote: »

As always, one combination is going to be OP and everyone is going to use the same one. The DKs will surely put the Arcanist Ray on it ja ja

Seriously, it's time for Arcanists to stop being 90% of the roster (https://es.esologs.com/zone/rankings/18?metric=playerscore&partition=24&class=DPS) and at the other extreme, Wardens aren't DPS (in serious content).

I think the developers have finally realized that they need to make it so that all classes can, at least without too much difference, play all roles FOR REAL and I applaud that.

Here's the thing: we're not getting anything new. What we're getting is a way to jumble up our existing skill lines. Don't like all the Arcanists? Herald Of The Tome features prominently in all those broken builds people have been testing. Wish you could feasibly play a DK healer? You'll be playing Arcanist/Templar/Warden healer with some DK flair.

People keep saying this will open up new possibilities. It won't. If anything, some base classes will slide right off the list entirely because now you can grab that one skill line you need that their one in-demand buff/debuff comes from, and remain 2/3rds something else.

LittlePinkDot

QB1 wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

And what about PvP?? I'm totally going to give haunting curse and hardened ward to a Templar.

Go for it

There are definitely specific skill lines I can see being disproportionately used in PvP.
Haunting curse is the best delayed damage skill in my opinion. There's classes that lack burst damage and that skill helps solve that problem. Hardened ward is just the gravy on top.

I could also see alot of people using the Wardens animal companion skill line in PvP.
Shalks is a delayed burst, although harder to land than haunting curse. The skill line has major expedition with minor berserk from that falcon skill and it also has the Betty that gives major sorcery/brutality with resource Regen.

I'm on console so I can't participate in PTS. I read there's some changes to Templar Jesus beam. Is it still good??
I'm deciding on which Templar skill line I should swap out. I will either lose Jesus beam or binding javalin.
I can use poison injection for an execute if I have to.

QB1

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

QB1 wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

And what about PvP?? I'm totally going to give haunting curse and hardened ward to a Templar.

Go for it

There are definitely specific skill lines I can see being disproportionately used in PvP.
Haunting curse is the best delayed damage skill in my opinion. There's classes that lack burst damage and that skill helps solve that problem. Hardened ward is just the gravy on top.

I could also see alot of people using the Wardens animal companion skill line in PvP.
Shalks is a delayed burst, although harder to land than haunting curse. The skill line has major expedition with minor berserk from that falcon skill and it also has the Betty that gives major sorcery/brutality with resource Regen.

I'm on console so I can't participate in PTS. I read there's some changes to Templar Jesus beam. Is it still good??
I'm deciding on which Templar skill line I should swap out. I will either lose Jesus beam or binding javalin.
I can use poison injection for an execute if I have to.

Oh there will absolutely be stuff being disproportionately used in PvP (but that's always been the case). I've been on the PTS dueling and it seems like everyone is using the assassination skill line. I've seen a lot of animal companion/aedric spear/assassination builds.

As for the haunting curse/ward combo, unless you are running pets you will not be able to make use out of any of the passives now. That's a pretty big loss just to run curse and ward. Could still be worth it depending on the rest of your build/playstyle but not sure.

Also not sure about jesus beam. I never really used it before the nerf but from what I've seen so far on the PTS, doesn't seem like too many people have been using it. Mostly the combo of the three skill lines I mentioned above. But again, that's just dueling (open world is much different)and still week 1 of pts.

QB1

QB1 wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

QB1 wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

And what about PvP?? I'm totally going to give haunting curse and hardened ward to a Templar.

Go for it

There are definitely specific skill lines I can see being disproportionately used in PvP.
Haunting curse is the best delayed damage skill in my opinion. There's classes that lack burst damage and that skill helps solve that problem. Hardened ward is just the gravy on top.

I could also see alot of people using the Wardens animal companion skill line in PvP.
Shalks is a delayed burst, although harder to land than haunting curse. The skill line has major expedition with minor berserk from that falcon skill and it also has the Betty that gives major sorcery/brutality with resource Regen.

I'm on console so I can't participate in PTS. I read there's some changes to Templar Jesus beam. Is it still good??
I'm deciding on which Templar skill line I should swap out. I will either lose Jesus beam or binding javalin.
I can use poison injection for an execute if I have to.

Oh there will absolutely be stuff being disproportionately used in PvP (but that's always been the case). I've been on the PTS dueling and it seems like everyone is using the assassination skill line. I've seen a lot of animal companion/aedric spear/assassination builds.

As for the haunting curse/ward combo, unless you are running pets you will not be able to make use out of any of the passives now. That's a pretty big loss just to run curse and ward. Could still be worth it depending on the rest of your build/playstyle but not sure.

Also not sure about jesus beam. I never really used it before the nerf but from what I've seen so far on the PTS, doesn't seem like too many people have been using it. Mostly the combo of the three skill lines I mentioned above. But again, that's just dueling and still week 1 of pts.

Rungar

Its definitely doable. Once its in place its not a huge leap to let you choose 3 lines at the start of your character or choose a premade template of 10 to 15 select popular combinations.

I think your on the right track here. Would be a brand new game for many people.

LittlePinkDot

QB1 wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

QB1 wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

And what about PvP?? I'm totally going to give haunting curse and hardened ward to a Templar.

Go for it

There are definitely specific skill lines I can see being disproportionately used in PvP.
Haunting curse is the best delayed damage skill in my opinion. There's classes that lack burst damage and that skill helps solve that problem. Hardened ward is just the gravy on top.

I could also see alot of people using the Wardens animal companion skill line in PvP.
Shalks is a delayed burst, although harder to land than haunting curse. The skill line has major expedition with minor berserk from that falcon skill and it also has the Betty that gives major sorcery/brutality with resource Regen.

I'm on console so I can't participate in PTS. I read there's some changes to Templar Jesus beam. Is it still good??
I'm deciding on which Templar skill line I should swap out. I will either lose Jesus beam or binding javalin.
I can use poison injection for an execute if I have to.

Oh there will absolutely be stuff being disproportionately used in PvP (but that's always been the case). I've been on the PTS dueling and it seems like everyone is using the assassination skill line. I've seen a lot of animal companion/aedric spear/assassination builds.

As for the haunting curse/ward combo, unless you are running pets you will not be able to make use out of any of the passives now. That's a pretty big loss just to run curse and ward. Could still be worth it depending on the rest of your build/playstyle but not sure.

Also not sure about jesus beam. I never really used it before the nerf but from what I've seen so far on the PTS, doesn't seem like too many people have been using it. Mostly the combo of the three skill lines I mentioned above. But again, that's just dueling (open world is much different)and still week 1 of pts.

If you're trying to stay at range with a bow, assassination skill line doesn't have a ranged spammable unfortunately. I guess you could run it for the passives and just grim focus if you have bar space for it.

Cooperharley

Yea I think this is the move especially with ZOS's ideology of moving away from the MMO-esque elements and more into just a world you live in, so giving players the ultimate freedom to choose how they play would be great. I BELIEVE (not 100% sure) they didn't do that with this because the OG classes are so engrained in the code of the base game that it made it a massive undertaking, but can definitely see them moving this way in the future.

Part of me also hopes that they're able to release individual skill lines more often as well. Like each quarter or every other quarter releasing like a pugilist weapon line, and then a dwemer artificer tank line and so on.

Xirks

100% disagree, subclassing sounds cool but will ultimately be the downfall of the already falling ESO. Rather than balancing, ZOS figured to just take the shortcut and totally destroy what makes an MMORPG an MMORPG.. Classes and class identity will be destroyed, eso pve is if you are not an Arcanist, you are not welcomed. In PvP, if you are not running in a ballgroup as a warden, you are essentially useless.

In a Roleplay standpoint, subclassing will be cool.

In a functional standpoint, yikes.

Tanks
Supports
Healers
Damage Dealers

Now we have

Tanks doing more damage AND healing than the specialized classes are supposed to.

After subclassing, it is going to be FAR worse.
We should see how AOC does with subclassing before adding it to ESO.

My opinions!

Rungar

I actuallt think they should have a grand competition of various line combinations and after a season make the top 20 default templates and let you choose any three lines at the start of the game if you dont want to use the popular templates.

Juju_beans

Someone will figure out the best combination for the most damage.
They will post it online.

Everyone and their brother will copy it.

That's the same story for every MMO

AcadianPaladin

I've always been in favor of no classes in ESO.

I've never understood the logic behind fear that everyone will play the same build. Whether there are classes, subclasses or no classes has no bearing on choosing what works best and playing it for those who want to optimize damage.

Rungar

Few can get around the optomized damage problem in this genre. But it can be done.... pretty easily actually.

Hawke

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

I've always been in favor of no classes in ESO.

This right here says it all for Elder Scrolls. At least ESO is trying is meet up with the spirit of the series.

StarOfElyon

QB1 wrote: »

With the news of subclassing being added to ESO, I have to admit that I’m thrilled. This is exactly the kind of evolution the game needs, imo. Huge props to ZOS for taking this step, subclassing opens up so many creative possibilities and addresses a long-standing community desire for more customization within the existing class framework. Scribing and skill styling have also added a ton of build customization as well.

That said, I’d love to see this as a stepping stone toward an entirely classless system in the future.

Here’s why:

Creative Freedom: A classless system would allow players to fully express their playstyle without being locked into a single class identity. The game already has a strong foundation of skill lines that can be mixed and matched, expanding that further only enhances the sandbox feel.

Ease of Future Content: Instead of ZOS having to design and balance entire new classes (which is a massive lift), a classless system would make it easier to add new single skill lines without breaking the game.

Balance Opportunities: Instead of balancing whole classes, the devs could focus on tweaking individual skill lines, passives, and synergies, making the meta more dynamic and shifting.

I understand a move to full classless would be a huge change and likely not feasible overnight, but subclassing is a fantastic step in the right direction. It shows that ZOS is listening and willing to evolve the game systems.

ESO has the best combat system in any MMO, and giving players more freedom to explore it their way only strengthens that.

Curious what others think. Would you support the game moving toward a classless system in the future?

This game should not play like Skyrim or Oblivion. It's a MMO and there should be boundaries. I want more options. More classes. More customizations. I don't want everything thrown into a blender, which is what we're getting now with subclassing.

I thought the game was almost perfect when sets and races went through hybridization. All that was needed was hybridization of potions and some enchantments. It went too far when all skills were changed to scale with the highest stat. Now, it's no longer a CHOICE, you are gimping yourself if you don't hybridize. That ruined playing a hybrid for me.

In a similar way, some pure classes have to take nerfs in order to facilitate subclassing (not the nightblades though. God forbid they actually get nerfed for a change). Subclassing will be optimal and that makes it much less of a CHOICE and more of a requirement unless you prefer to be at a disadvantage.

These are the decisions that frustrate me, on top of the ruthless monetization.

StarOfElyon

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

I've always been in favor of no classes in ESO.

I've never understood the logic behind fear that everyone will play the same build. Whether there are classes, subclasses or no classes has no bearing on choosing what works best and playing it for those who want to optimize damage.

That's fine for a one player game.

Rungar

This game has roles it doesnt need classes since any class can be any role and you can literally play without any class skills slotted.

The only difference is you can make any role more viable now by switching out a line or two that you werent really using anyway.

Sabre

Xirks wrote: »

100% disagree, subclassing sounds cool but will ultimately be the downfall of the already falling ESO. Rather than balancing, ZOS figured to just take the shortcut and totally destroy what makes an MMORPG an MMORPG.. Classes and class identity will be destroyed, eso pve is if you are not an Arcanist, you are not welcomed. In PvP, if you are not running in a ballgroup as a warden, you are essentially useless.

In a Roleplay standpoint, subclassing will be cool.

In a functional standpoint, yikes.

Tanks
Supports
Healers
Damage Dealers

Now we have

Tanks doing more damage AND healing than the specialized classes are supposed to.

After subclassing, it is going to be FAR worse.
We should see how AOC does with subclassing before adding it to ESO.

My opinions!

Your statement "We should see how AOC does with subclassing before adding it to ESO." seems to ring a bell. Subclassing is simply a competition with what another game is doing while not really offering anything new.