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I had to buy ESO+ because event will punish you if you don't
-
Pixiepumpkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
Because that is what is required to pull my weight in any participatory event that requires gear. I even have multiple sets for the same build for trash pulls and boss fights.Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Its impossible to manage on multiple characters while maintaining all the items necessary to crafft any given item upon request.
Just because you cannot/don´t want to do it doesn´t mean its impossible. If you stack 4 gear sets on each of 20 chars + old suryes and TMs - no surprise.
So ESO+ becomes a requirement, that is my argument and the OP's. Thank you for proving the point.I have all the items necessary to craft at any given time either by filling crafting bag during free ESO+ but I also take ESO+ once or twice a year to dump mats and do housing (the double slots). Suryes I stack until such a time and then dump all the mats in bag.
Writs I can stack until double XP event without any troubles.But I admit it takes some planning and effort. I can understand that people don´t want to bother with that and appreciate the convenience of having everything at hand. But it´s simply not impossible.
But that is my point, and I already illustrated this. Without mods/addons (which consoles do not have), and/or a spreadsheet of materials to cross reference with what any given character needs to craft (not all have crafting at 50) is an insane amount of work to "play the game".
The craft bag should be baked into the base game, not a function of ESO+.Edited by Pixiepumpkin on April 8, 2025 8:34AM"Class identity isn’t just about power or efficiency. It’s about symbolic clarity, mechanical cohesion, and a shared visual and tactical language between players." - sans-culottes4 -
Spacefish2323✭✭✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »
"Junk" items are mostly crafting materials that have little value at the trader, but are valuable when it comes time to craft and therefore can not be done without. They are not "junk" in the sense of items we should vendor, but "junk" in t he sense that they take up a ton of space.Spacefish2323 wrote: »
It's not punishment to be given extra rewards just because you feel like they are junk. Most of the items in the game are junk outside of the statsticks and consumables if your mindset is pure optimization.
The entirety of this game is desinged to funnel the player to use ESO+ and to purchase crown crates. This is not a conspriacy theory but a very basic observation (and EXTREMELY obvious to those with design educations). The craft bag and amount of drops from any given source illustrate this.
What is the limiting principle? The craft bag should be base game, NOT eso+.Spacefish2323 wrote: »Where then is the limiting principle: without ESO+ you shouldn't be inflicted with motifs? Furnishings? What else? Nothing but gear ugprades and BIS consumables? Punishment would be not being given those items and what choice you have to do with them, event or no.
Also two things can be punishable at the same time.
So you are suggesting that one should not play part of the game because t hey do not have ESO+? That proves my point.Spacefish2323 wrote: »No one is forcing anyone to dig up maps or do anything with their inventory besides vendor dump.
So, we are given the choice to play alts, but then punished when we play alts? That makes no sense.Spacefish2323 wrote: »Those are choices, and choices have tradeoffs. Don't have enough bank space for all your gear because transmute isn't good enough in your opinion because tempers aren't free? Okay, play less characters.
Everything we do in life is a "choice", but there are also methods of manipulating people to make those choices, this is well documented and in part what the entire advertising world is built around. The game is extremely time consuming (without needing to be) and frustrating if one intends to play the game fully without ESO+.Spacefish2323 wrote: »Wait, you want to play more characters, but that might mean managing them? And that management is easier if you make the choice to buy ESO+? That choice is yours.
The rewards are fine and I have no issue with them, but without ESO+ they are punishing as the OP stated. The amount of inventory management and time required to balance multiple characters is insane without ESO+Spacefish2323 wrote: »If items coming into your inventory is punishment, then ESO is self-flagellation. You feel like the majority of the reward are trash? Okay, fair enough. But they are trying to reward players with the event, the exact opposite of punish them. And the difference is entirely in the eye of the ungrateful beholder.
Which takes me back to...."The Craft Bag should be baked into the base game, and not a feature of ESO+".
But then, few would sub to ESO+ right?
The craft bag should be base game and not ESO+ is a position I agree with personally (I'm guessing FOMO over Crown houses and cosmetics pays the bills at Zenimax, but bean-counters love revenue forecasting from recurring payments). That being the main issue is your inserted hobbyhorse over the substantive claim that the EVENT is punishing specifically to non-subs. But the event is no more or less like the entirely of the game, which ENCOURAGES ESO+ purchases vis-a-vis a stick behind the core RPG loop's carrots if you don't have it (or punishes them for not having it, if you must. Though this punishment can be easily avoided by walking away). The event is just the game on steroids: you play, you get loot, you manage loot. Now you just get more loot. Heaven forfend Zenimax keeps giving us more things. That's how games die.1 -
Pixiepumpkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »
"Junk" items are mostly crafting materials that have little value at the trader, but are valuable when it comes time to craft and therefore can not be done without. They are not "junk" in the sense of items we should vendor, but "junk" in t he sense that they take up a ton of space.Spacefish2323 wrote: »
It's not punishment to be given extra rewards just because you feel like they are junk. Most of the items in the game are junk outside of the statsticks and consumables if your mindset is pure optimization.
The entirety of this game is desinged to funnel the player to use ESO+ and to purchase crown crates. This is not a conspriacy theory but a very basic observation (and EXTREMELY obvious to those with design educations). The craft bag and amount of drops from any given source illustrate this.
What is the limiting principle? The craft bag should be base game, NOT eso+.Spacefish2323 wrote: »Where then is the limiting principle: without ESO+ you shouldn't be inflicted with motifs? Furnishings? What else? Nothing but gear ugprades and BIS consumables? Punishment would be not being given those items and what choice you have to do with them, event or no.
Also two things can be punishable at the same time.
So you are suggesting that one should not play part of the game because t hey do not have ESO+? That proves my point.Spacefish2323 wrote: »No one is forcing anyone to dig up maps or do anything with their inventory besides vendor dump.
So, we are given the choice to play alts, but then punished when we play alts? That makes no sense.Spacefish2323 wrote: »Those are choices, and choices have tradeoffs. Don't have enough bank space for all your gear because transmute isn't good enough in your opinion because tempers aren't free? Okay, play less characters.
Everything we do in life is a "choice", but there are also methods of manipulating people to make those choices, this is well documented and in part what the entire advertising world is built around. The game is extremely time consuming (without needing to be) and frustrating if one intends to play the game fully without ESO+.Spacefish2323 wrote: »Wait, you want to play more characters, but that might mean managing them? And that management is easier if you make the choice to buy ESO+? That choice is yours.
The rewards are fine and I have no issue with them, but without ESO+ they are punishing as the OP stated. The amount of inventory management and time required to balance multiple characters is insane without ESO+Spacefish2323 wrote: »If items coming into your inventory is punishment, then ESO is self-flagellation. You feel like the majority of the reward are trash? Okay, fair enough. But they are trying to reward players with the event, the exact opposite of punish them. And the difference is entirely in the eye of the ungrateful beholder.
Which takes me back to...."The Craft Bag should be baked into the base game, and not a feature of ESO+".
But then, few would sub to ESO+ right?
The craft bag should be base game and not ESO+ is a position I agree with personally (I'm guessing FOMO over Crown houses and cosmetics pays the bills at Zenimax, but bean-counters love revenue forecasting from recurring payments). That being the main issue is your inserted hobbyhorse over the substantive claim that the EVENT is punishing specifically to non-subs. But the event is no more or less like the entirely of the game, which ENCOURAGES ESO+ purchases vis-a-vis a stick behind the core RPG loop's carrots if you don't have it (or punishes them for not having it, if you must. Though this punishment can be easily avoided by walking away). The event is just the game on steroids: you play, you get loot, you manage loot. Now you just get more loot. Heaven forfend Zenimax keeps giving us more things. That's how games die.
The act of managing inventory without ESO+ (or rather the craft bag) during this event, is punishing. It's not fun, it takes a massive amount of time away from actually doing something fun/productive with ones time in game. That time has a finite amount due to real world activities such as work, sleep, eating, etc.
This is not debatable, unless someone finds bag/inventory management fun, which I would assert an extremely small amount of the populous does ( I base my claim on observations of player feedback and developer implementations over a plethora of games and game genres through a 20 years course of making inventory management easier)."Class identity isn’t just about power or efficiency. It’s about symbolic clarity, mechanical cohesion, and a shared visual and tactical language between players." - sans-culottes2 -
Spacefish2323✭✭✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »
"Junk" items are mostly crafting materials that have little value at the trader, but are valuable when it comes time to craft and therefore can not be done without. They are not "junk" in the sense of items we should vendor, but "junk" in t he sense that they take up a ton of space.Spacefish2323 wrote: »
It's not punishment to be given extra rewards just because you feel like they are junk. Most of the items in the game are junk outside of the statsticks and consumables if your mindset is pure optimization.
The entirety of this game is desinged to funnel the player to use ESO+ and to purchase crown crates. This is not a conspriacy theory but a very basic observation (and EXTREMELY obvious to those with design educations). The craft bag and amount of drops from any given source illustrate this.
What is the limiting principle? The craft bag should be base game, NOT eso+.Spacefish2323 wrote: »Where then is the limiting principle: without ESO+ you shouldn't be inflicted with motifs? Furnishings? What else? Nothing but gear ugprades and BIS consumables? Punishment would be not being given those items and what choice you have to do with them, event or no.
Also two things can be punishable at the same time.
So you are suggesting that one should not play part of the game because t hey do not have ESO+? That proves my point.Spacefish2323 wrote: »No one is forcing anyone to dig up maps or do anything with their inventory besides vendor dump.
So, we are given the choice to play alts, but then punished when we play alts? That makes no sense.Spacefish2323 wrote: »Those are choices, and choices have tradeoffs. Don't have enough bank space for all your gear because transmute isn't good enough in your opinion because tempers aren't free? Okay, play less characters.
Everything we do in life is a "choice", but there are also methods of manipulating people to make those choices, this is well documented and in part what the entire advertising world is built around. The game is extremely time consuming (without needing to be) and frustrating if one intends to play the game fully without ESO+.Spacefish2323 wrote: »Wait, you want to play more characters, but that might mean managing them? And that management is easier if you make the choice to buy ESO+? That choice is yours.
The rewards are fine and I have no issue with them, but without ESO+ they are punishing as the OP stated. The amount of inventory management and time required to balance multiple characters is insane without ESO+Spacefish2323 wrote: »If items coming into your inventory is punishment, then ESO is self-flagellation. You feel like the majority of the reward are trash? Okay, fair enough. But they are trying to reward players with the event, the exact opposite of punish them. And the difference is entirely in the eye of the ungrateful beholder.
Which takes me back to...."The Craft Bag should be baked into the base game, and not a feature of ESO+".
But then, few would sub to ESO+ right?
The craft bag should be base game and not ESO+ is a position I agree with personally (I'm guessing FOMO over Crown houses and cosmetics pays the bills at Zenimax, but bean-counters love revenue forecasting from recurring payments). That being the main issue is your inserted hobbyhorse over the substantive claim that the EVENT is punishing specifically to non-subs. But the event is no more or less like the entirely of the game, which ENCOURAGES ESO+ purchases vis-a-vis a stick behind the core RPG loop's carrots if you don't have it (or punishes them for not having it, if you must. Though this punishment can be easily avoided by walking away). The event is just the game on steroids: you play, you get loot, you manage loot. Now you just get more loot. Heaven forfend Zenimax keeps giving us more things. That's how games die.
The act of managing inventory without ESO+ (or rather the craft bag) during this event, is punishing. It's not fun, it takes a massive amount of time away from actually doing something fun/productive with ones time in game. That time has a finite amount due to real world activities such as work, sleep, eating, etc.
This is not debatable, unless someone finds bag/inventory management fun, which I would assert an extremely small amount of the populous does ( I base my claim on observations of player feedback and developer implementations over a plethora of games and game genres through a 20 years course of making inventory management easier).
You are still beating the same horse but just using the event to do it. Let's concede for the sake of argument: inventory management in ESO is onerous and even punishing (why do we or even the OP engage our precious time away from eating and sleeping in this act of self-flagellation is a question that will enthrall future anthropologists, perhaps?). And inventory management is what ZOS has always been selling. Want to PvP on equal footing, play a FPS where everyone has the same stats. Want to accrue wealth, play a survival game. Want to play ESO... then engage with the vagaries and nuances of an RPG and that always included bag management.
Flip the script. What should be done, assuming (as we both very well know) that ESO+ will not be made a base feature. Again, this is a separate issue on which we seem to radically agree)? A) No inventory rewards for events, everyone is punished. B ) No event rewards without ESO+ (lets see who feels punished now!). C) Zenimax, having been persuaded by the unfair punishment they inflicted on people who willingly chose to play their game for free being felt burdened just decided to start working for free. Since C is never going to happen, the cries of despair will only ever result in A). Not everyone gets cake, so no cake.
Edited by Spacefish2323 on April 8, 2025 9:21AM2 -
Grizzbeorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Inventory management is an engineered issue (by the company whose game it is) in every loot-collecting game of which I've been aware since the 90s.
And a contingent of every single gaming community has been complaining about it that whole time.
It's nothing new, and it isn't going to change.0 -
xylena_lazarow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭F2P games making you pay for QOL is nothing new, nor is it necessarily predatory.PC/NA || Cyro/BGs || retired until Dagon brings a new dawn of PvP metas5 -
Pixiepumpkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭xylena_lazarow wrote: »F2P games making you pay for QOL is nothing new, nor is it necessarily predatory.
These scientists and psychologists might disagree.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0747563219302602"Class identity isn’t just about power or efficiency. It’s about symbolic clarity, mechanical cohesion, and a shared visual and tactical language between players." - sans-culottes1 -
ImmortalCX✭✭✭✭✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »
This game is absoutely punishing when one does not have ESO+, and even more so during events like this. I am doing my dailies on 20 characters (as is my wife) and we chuckled and had a laugh on the first day when discussing how this would be impossible without ESO+.
That is unless you do not work and can play for 14 hours a day doing bag management.
without ESO+: doing crafting dailies + 2 WW dailies on 19 chars for the event and have no issues with inventory managament
just sell whats not worth to keep to vendor - if you hoard crap it´s no suprise you cant manage and ESO+ is not a real fix for the problem. Took a bit to get the right order of which char takes what but now its smooth.
I don´t have to relog on any other char so inventory mgmt costs me only the time to sell crap and the time to bank what another one takes out - about 2 min per char. Loading Screens take 3-5 times of the time.
Edit: the only thing that really pains me is furnishings - keeping them in houses and travel all the time when you are on a project is super annoying. So I would get ESO+ if a furnishing bag was included but I don´t need it for crafting bag.
You ppl arguing about wheter game can be easily played without eso plus are missing the point.
The events true purpose is to multiply junk drops and force ppl into subs. Sure you can trash everything or play in a limited fashion, or spend half your time playing bag mgmt.
I was a long term free player, i have a great system, i know management inside out, but realized i needed eso plus to deal with 5x mat and gear drops. All of a sudden the game turned into a bag mgmt simulation. After two days of the event the oddball style mats and bound pet parts fill your free cache space and the system breaks. Because everyone else is simultaneously experiencing the same problem, selling doesnt work, besides still only 30 slots to list.
It is devious and punishing without eso plus.Edited by ImmortalCX on April 8, 2025 10:34AM2 -
Pixiepumpkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »
"Junk" items are mostly crafting materials that have little value at the trader, but are valuable when it comes time to craft and therefore can not be done without. They are not "junk" in the sense of items we should vendor, but "junk" in t he sense that they take up a ton of space.Spacefish2323 wrote: »
It's not punishment to be given extra rewards just because you feel like they are junk. Most of the items in the game are junk outside of the statsticks and consumables if your mindset is pure optimization.
The entirety of this game is desinged to funnel the player to use ESO+ and to purchase crown crates. This is not a conspriacy theory but a very basic observation (and EXTREMELY obvious to those with design educations). The craft bag and amount of drops from any given source illustrate this.
What is the limiting principle? The craft bag should be base game, NOT eso+.Spacefish2323 wrote: »Where then is the limiting principle: without ESO+ you shouldn't be inflicted with motifs? Furnishings? What else? Nothing but gear ugprades and BIS consumables? Punishment would be not being given those items and what choice you have to do with them, event or no.
Also two things can be punishable at the same time.
So you are suggesting that one should not play part of the game because t hey do not have ESO+? That proves my point.Spacefish2323 wrote: »No one is forcing anyone to dig up maps or do anything with their inventory besides vendor dump.
So, we are given the choice to play alts, but then punished when we play alts? That makes no sense.Spacefish2323 wrote: »Those are choices, and choices have tradeoffs. Don't have enough bank space for all your gear because transmute isn't good enough in your opinion because tempers aren't free? Okay, play less characters.
Everything we do in life is a "choice", but there are also methods of manipulating people to make those choices, this is well documented and in part what the entire advertising world is built around. The game is extremely time consuming (without needing to be) and frustrating if one intends to play the game fully without ESO+.Spacefish2323 wrote: »Wait, you want to play more characters, but that might mean managing them? And that management is easier if you make the choice to buy ESO+? That choice is yours.
The rewards are fine and I have no issue with them, but without ESO+ they are punishing as the OP stated. The amount of inventory management and time required to balance multiple characters is insane without ESO+Spacefish2323 wrote: »If items coming into your inventory is punishment, then ESO is self-flagellation. You feel like the majority of the reward are trash? Okay, fair enough. But they are trying to reward players with the event, the exact opposite of punish them. And the difference is entirely in the eye of the ungrateful beholder.
Which takes me back to...."The Craft Bag should be baked into the base game, and not a feature of ESO+".
But then, few would sub to ESO+ right?
The craft bag should be base game and not ESO+ is a position I agree with personally (I'm guessing FOMO over Crown houses and cosmetics pays the bills at Zenimax, but bean-counters love revenue forecasting from recurring payments). That being the main issue is your inserted hobbyhorse over the substantive claim that the EVENT is punishing specifically to non-subs. But the event is no more or less like the entirely of the game, which ENCOURAGES ESO+ purchases vis-a-vis a stick behind the core RPG loop's carrots if you don't have it (or punishes them for not having it, if you must. Though this punishment can be easily avoided by walking away). The event is just the game on steroids: you play, you get loot, you manage loot. Now you just get more loot. Heaven forfend Zenimax keeps giving us more things. That's how games die.
The act of managing inventory without ESO+ (or rather the craft bag) during this event, is punishing. It's not fun, it takes a massive amount of time away from actually doing something fun/productive with ones time in game. That time has a finite amount due to real world activities such as work, sleep, eating, etc.
This is not debatable, unless someone finds bag/inventory management fun, which I would assert an extremely small amount of the populous does ( I base my claim on observations of player feedback and developer implementations over a plethora of games and game genres through a 20 years course of making inventory management easier).
You are still beating the same horse but just using the event to do it. Let's concede for the sake of argument: inventory management in ESO is onerous and even punishing (why do we or even the OP engage our precious time away from eating and sleeping in this act of self-flagellation is a question that will enthrall future anthropologists, perhaps?). And inventory management is what ZOS has always been selling. Want to PvP on equal footing, play a FPS where everyone has the same stats. Want to accrue wealth, play a survival game. Want to play ESO... then engage with the vagaries and nuances of an RPG and that always included bag management.
Flip the script. What should be done, assuming (as we both very well know) that ESO+ will not be made a base feature. Again, this is a separate issue on which we seem to radically agree)? A) No inventory rewards for events, everyone is punished. B ) No event rewards without ESO+ (lets see who feels punished now!). C) Zenimax, having been persuaded by the unfair punishment they inflicted on people who willingly chose to play their game for free being felt burdened just decided to start working for free. Since C is never going to happen, the cries of despair will only ever result in A). Not everyone gets cake, so no cake.
ESO+ for "free" during the event period when boxes are being given out with a ton of materials."Class identity isn’t just about power or efficiency. It’s about symbolic clarity, mechanical cohesion, and a shared visual and tactical language between players." - sans-culottes1 -
Spacefish2323✭✭✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »
"Junk" items are mostly crafting materials that have little value at the trader, but are valuable when it comes time to craft and therefore can not be done without. They are not "junk" in the sense of items we should vendor, but "junk" in t he sense that they take up a ton of space.Spacefish2323 wrote: »
It's not punishment to be given extra rewards just because you feel like they are junk. Most of the items in the game are junk outside of the statsticks and consumables if your mindset is pure optimization.
The entirety of this game is desinged to funnel the player to use ESO+ and to purchase crown crates. This is not a conspriacy theory but a very basic observation (and EXTREMELY obvious to those with design educations). The craft bag and amount of drops from any given source illustrate this.
What is the limiting principle? The craft bag should be base game, NOT eso+.Spacefish2323 wrote: »Where then is the limiting principle: without ESO+ you shouldn't be inflicted with motifs? Furnishings? What else? Nothing but gear ugprades and BIS consumables? Punishment would be not being given those items and what choice you have to do with them, event or no.
Also two things can be punishable at the same time.
So you are suggesting that one should not play part of the game because t hey do not have ESO+? That proves my point.Spacefish2323 wrote: »No one is forcing anyone to dig up maps or do anything with their inventory besides vendor dump.
So, we are given the choice to play alts, but then punished when we play alts? That makes no sense.Spacefish2323 wrote: »Those are choices, and choices have tradeoffs. Don't have enough bank space for all your gear because transmute isn't good enough in your opinion because tempers aren't free? Okay, play less characters.
Everything we do in life is a "choice", but there are also methods of manipulating people to make those choices, this is well documented and in part what the entire advertising world is built around. The game is extremely time consuming (without needing to be) and frustrating if one intends to play the game fully without ESO+.Spacefish2323 wrote: »Wait, you want to play more characters, but that might mean managing them? And that management is easier if you make the choice to buy ESO+? That choice is yours.
The rewards are fine and I have no issue with them, but without ESO+ they are punishing as the OP stated. The amount of inventory management and time required to balance multiple characters is insane without ESO+Spacefish2323 wrote: »If items coming into your inventory is punishment, then ESO is self-flagellation. You feel like the majority of the reward are trash? Okay, fair enough. But they are trying to reward players with the event, the exact opposite of punish them. And the difference is entirely in the eye of the ungrateful beholder.
Which takes me back to...."The Craft Bag should be baked into the base game, and not a feature of ESO+".
But then, few would sub to ESO+ right?
The craft bag should be base game and not ESO+ is a position I agree with personally (I'm guessing FOMO over Crown houses and cosmetics pays the bills at Zenimax, but bean-counters love revenue forecasting from recurring payments). That being the main issue is your inserted hobbyhorse over the substantive claim that the EVENT is punishing specifically to non-subs. But the event is no more or less like the entirely of the game, which ENCOURAGES ESO+ purchases vis-a-vis a stick behind the core RPG loop's carrots if you don't have it (or punishes them for not having it, if you must. Though this punishment can be easily avoided by walking away). The event is just the game on steroids: you play, you get loot, you manage loot. Now you just get more loot. Heaven forfend Zenimax keeps giving us more things. That's how games die.
The act of managing inventory without ESO+ (or rather the craft bag) during this event, is punishing. It's not fun, it takes a massive amount of time away from actually doing something fun/productive with ones time in game. That time has a finite amount due to real world activities such as work, sleep, eating, etc.
This is not debatable, unless someone finds bag/inventory management fun, which I would assert an extremely small amount of the populous does ( I base my claim on observations of player feedback and developer implementations over a plethora of games and game genres through a 20 years course of making inventory management easier).
You are still beating the same horse but just using the event to do it. Let's concede for the sake of argument: inventory management in ESO is onerous and even punishing (why do we or even the OP engage our precious time away from eating and sleeping in this act of self-flagellation is a question that will enthrall future anthropologists, perhaps?). And inventory management is what ZOS has always been selling. Want to PvP on equal footing, play a FPS where everyone has the same stats. Want to accrue wealth, play a survival game. Want to play ESO... then engage with the vagaries and nuances of an RPG and that always included bag management.
Flip the script. What should be done, assuming (as we both very well know) that ESO+ will not be made a base feature. Again, this is a separate issue on which we seem to radically agree)? A) No inventory rewards for events, everyone is punished. B ) No event rewards without ESO+ (lets see who feels punished now!). C) Zenimax, having been persuaded by the unfair punishment they inflicted on people who willingly chose to play their game for free being felt burdened just decided to start working for free. Since C is never going to happen, the cries of despair will only ever result in A). Not everyone gets cake, so no cake.
ESO+ for "free" during the event period when boxes are being given out with a ton of materials.
Now you get it. If they were smarter, they would do this instead. [snip] Everyone still gets the event, and new people get to hop on the merry-go-round. Carrots not sticks. The event is a carrot. ESO+ is the stick that fuels the game. Some of us like carrots and the ride.
[edited for inappropriate content]Edited by ZOS_Icy on April 8, 2025 5:38PM1 -
Pixiepumpkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »
"Junk" items are mostly crafting materials that have little value at the trader, but are valuable when it comes time to craft and therefore can not be done without. They are not "junk" in the sense of items we should vendor, but "junk" in t he sense that they take up a ton of space.Spacefish2323 wrote: »
It's not punishment to be given extra rewards just because you feel like they are junk. Most of the items in the game are junk outside of the statsticks and consumables if your mindset is pure optimization.
The entirety of this game is desinged to funnel the player to use ESO+ and to purchase crown crates. This is not a conspriacy theory but a very basic observation (and EXTREMELY obvious to those with design educations). The craft bag and amount of drops from any given source illustrate this.
What is the limiting principle? The craft bag should be base game, NOT eso+.Spacefish2323 wrote: »Where then is the limiting principle: without ESO+ you shouldn't be inflicted with motifs? Furnishings? What else? Nothing but gear ugprades and BIS consumables? Punishment would be not being given those items and what choice you have to do with them, event or no.
Also two things can be punishable at the same time.
So you are suggesting that one should not play part of the game because t hey do not have ESO+? That proves my point.Spacefish2323 wrote: »No one is forcing anyone to dig up maps or do anything with their inventory besides vendor dump.
So, we are given the choice to play alts, but then punished when we play alts? That makes no sense.Spacefish2323 wrote: »Those are choices, and choices have tradeoffs. Don't have enough bank space for all your gear because transmute isn't good enough in your opinion because tempers aren't free? Okay, play less characters.
Everything we do in life is a "choice", but there are also methods of manipulating people to make those choices, this is well documented and in part what the entire advertising world is built around. The game is extremely time consuming (without needing to be) and frustrating if one intends to play the game fully without ESO+.Spacefish2323 wrote: »Wait, you want to play more characters, but that might mean managing them? And that management is easier if you make the choice to buy ESO+? That choice is yours.
The rewards are fine and I have no issue with them, but without ESO+ they are punishing as the OP stated. The amount of inventory management and time required to balance multiple characters is insane without ESO+Spacefish2323 wrote: »If items coming into your inventory is punishment, then ESO is self-flagellation. You feel like the majority of the reward are trash? Okay, fair enough. But they are trying to reward players with the event, the exact opposite of punish them. And the difference is entirely in the eye of the ungrateful beholder.
Which takes me back to...."The Craft Bag should be baked into the base game, and not a feature of ESO+".
But then, few would sub to ESO+ right?
The craft bag should be base game and not ESO+ is a position I agree with personally (I'm guessing FOMO over Crown houses and cosmetics pays the bills at Zenimax, but bean-counters love revenue forecasting from recurring payments). That being the main issue is your inserted hobbyhorse over the substantive claim that the EVENT is punishing specifically to non-subs. But the event is no more or less like the entirely of the game, which ENCOURAGES ESO+ purchases vis-a-vis a stick behind the core RPG loop's carrots if you don't have it (or punishes them for not having it, if you must. Though this punishment can be easily avoided by walking away). The event is just the game on steroids: you play, you get loot, you manage loot. Now you just get more loot. Heaven forfend Zenimax keeps giving us more things. That's how games die.
The act of managing inventory without ESO+ (or rather the craft bag) during this event, is punishing. It's not fun, it takes a massive amount of time away from actually doing something fun/productive with ones time in game. That time has a finite amount due to real world activities such as work, sleep, eating, etc.
This is not debatable, unless someone finds bag/inventory management fun, which I would assert an extremely small amount of the populous does ( I base my claim on observations of player feedback and developer implementations over a plethora of games and game genres through a 20 years course of making inventory management easier).
You are still beating the same horse but just using the event to do it. Let's concede for the sake of argument: inventory management in ESO is onerous and even punishing (why do we or even the OP engage our precious time away from eating and sleeping in this act of self-flagellation is a question that will enthrall future anthropologists, perhaps?). And inventory management is what ZOS has always been selling. Want to PvP on equal footing, play a FPS where everyone has the same stats. Want to accrue wealth, play a survival game. Want to play ESO... then engage with the vagaries and nuances of an RPG and that always included bag management.
Flip the script. What should be done, assuming (as we both very well know) that ESO+ will not be made a base feature. Again, this is a separate issue on which we seem to radically agree)? A) No inventory rewards for events, everyone is punished. B ) No event rewards without ESO+ (lets see who feels punished now!). C) Zenimax, having been persuaded by the unfair punishment they inflicted on people who willingly chose to play their game for free being felt burdened just decided to start working for free. Since C is never going to happen, the cries of despair will only ever result in A). Not everyone gets cake, so no cake.
ESO+ for "free" during the event period when boxes are being given out with a ton of materials.
Now you get it. If they were smarter, they would do this instead. [snip] Everyone still gets the event, and new people get to hop on the merry-go-round. Carrots not sticks. The event is a carrot. ESO+ is the stick that fuels the game. Some of us like carrots and the ride.
Pro-tip. I always "got it".
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on April 8, 2025 5:39PM"Class identity isn’t just about power or efficiency. It’s about symbolic clarity, mechanical cohesion, and a shared visual and tactical language between players." - sans-culottes0 -
Spacefish2323✭✭✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »
"Junk" items are mostly crafting materials that have little value at the trader, but are valuable when it comes time to craft and therefore can not be done without. They are not "junk" in the sense of items we should vendor, but "junk" in t he sense that they take up a ton of space.Spacefish2323 wrote: »
It's not punishment to be given extra rewards just because you feel like they are junk. Most of the items in the game are junk outside of the statsticks and consumables if your mindset is pure optimization.
The entirety of this game is desinged to funnel the player to use ESO+ and to purchase crown crates. This is not a conspriacy theory but a very basic observation (and EXTREMELY obvious to those with design educations). The craft bag and amount of drops from any given source illustrate this.
What is the limiting principle? The craft bag should be base game, NOT eso+.Spacefish2323 wrote: »Where then is the limiting principle: without ESO+ you shouldn't be inflicted with motifs? Furnishings? What else? Nothing but gear ugprades and BIS consumables? Punishment would be not being given those items and what choice you have to do with them, event or no.
Also two things can be punishable at the same time.
So you are suggesting that one should not play part of the game because t hey do not have ESO+? That proves my point.Spacefish2323 wrote: »No one is forcing anyone to dig up maps or do anything with their inventory besides vendor dump.
So, we are given the choice to play alts, but then punished when we play alts? That makes no sense.Spacefish2323 wrote: »Those are choices, and choices have tradeoffs. Don't have enough bank space for all your gear because transmute isn't good enough in your opinion because tempers aren't free? Okay, play less characters.
Everything we do in life is a "choice", but there are also methods of manipulating people to make those choices, this is well documented and in part what the entire advertising world is built around. The game is extremely time consuming (without needing to be) and frustrating if one intends to play the game fully without ESO+.Spacefish2323 wrote: »Wait, you want to play more characters, but that might mean managing them? And that management is easier if you make the choice to buy ESO+? That choice is yours.
The rewards are fine and I have no issue with them, but without ESO+ they are punishing as the OP stated. The amount of inventory management and time required to balance multiple characters is insane without ESO+Spacefish2323 wrote: »If items coming into your inventory is punishment, then ESO is self-flagellation. You feel like the majority of the reward are trash? Okay, fair enough. But they are trying to reward players with the event, the exact opposite of punish them. And the difference is entirely in the eye of the ungrateful beholder.
Which takes me back to...."The Craft Bag should be baked into the base game, and not a feature of ESO+".
But then, few would sub to ESO+ right?
The craft bag should be base game and not ESO+ is a position I agree with personally (I'm guessing FOMO over Crown houses and cosmetics pays the bills at Zenimax, but bean-counters love revenue forecasting from recurring payments). That being the main issue is your inserted hobbyhorse over the substantive claim that the EVENT is punishing specifically to non-subs. But the event is no more or less like the entirely of the game, which ENCOURAGES ESO+ purchases vis-a-vis a stick behind the core RPG loop's carrots if you don't have it (or punishes them for not having it, if you must. Though this punishment can be easily avoided by walking away). The event is just the game on steroids: you play, you get loot, you manage loot. Now you just get more loot. Heaven forfend Zenimax keeps giving us more things. That's how games die.
The act of managing inventory without ESO+ (or rather the craft bag) during this event, is punishing. It's not fun, it takes a massive amount of time away from actually doing something fun/productive with ones time in game. That time has a finite amount due to real world activities such as work, sleep, eating, etc.
This is not debatable, unless someone finds bag/inventory management fun, which I would assert an extremely small amount of the populous does ( I base my claim on observations of player feedback and developer implementations over a plethora of games and game genres through a 20 years course of making inventory management easier).
You are still beating the same horse but just using the event to do it. Let's concede for the sake of argument: inventory management in ESO is onerous and even punishing (why do we or even the OP engage our precious time away from eating and sleeping in this act of self-flagellation is a question that will enthrall future anthropologists, perhaps?). And inventory management is what ZOS has always been selling. Want to PvP on equal footing, play a FPS where everyone has the same stats. Want to accrue wealth, play a survival game. Want to play ESO... then engage with the vagaries and nuances of an RPG and that always included bag management.
Flip the script. What should be done, assuming (as we both very well know) that ESO+ will not be made a base feature. Again, this is a separate issue on which we seem to radically agree)? A) No inventory rewards for events, everyone is punished. B ) No event rewards without ESO+ (lets see who feels punished now!). C) Zenimax, having been persuaded by the unfair punishment they inflicted on people who willingly chose to play their game for free being felt burdened just decided to start working for free. Since C is never going to happen, the cries of despair will only ever result in A). Not everyone gets cake, so no cake.
ESO+ for "free" during the event period when boxes are being given out with a ton of materials.
Now you get it. If they were smarter, they would do this instead. [snip] Everyone still gets the event, and new people get to hop on the merry-go-round. Carrots not sticks. The event is a carrot. ESO+ is the stick that fuels the game. Some of us like carrots and the ride.
Pro-tip. I always "got it".
Then just walk away and stop choosing to be punished. At least for the duration of the event.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on April 8, 2025 5:41PM1 -
Pixiepumpkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »
"Junk" items are mostly crafting materials that have little value at the trader, but are valuable when it comes time to craft and therefore can not be done without. They are not "junk" in the sense of items we should vendor, but "junk" in t he sense that they take up a ton of space.Spacefish2323 wrote: »
It's not punishment to be given extra rewards just because you feel like they are junk. Most of the items in the game are junk outside of the statsticks and consumables if your mindset is pure optimization.
The entirety of this game is desinged to funnel the player to use ESO+ and to purchase crown crates. This is not a conspriacy theory but a very basic observation (and EXTREMELY obvious to those with design educations). The craft bag and amount of drops from any given source illustrate this.
What is the limiting principle? The craft bag should be base game, NOT eso+.Spacefish2323 wrote: »Where then is the limiting principle: without ESO+ you shouldn't be inflicted with motifs? Furnishings? What else? Nothing but gear ugprades and BIS consumables? Punishment would be not being given those items and what choice you have to do with them, event or no.
Also two things can be punishable at the same time.
So you are suggesting that one should not play part of the game because t hey do not have ESO+? That proves my point.Spacefish2323 wrote: »No one is forcing anyone to dig up maps or do anything with their inventory besides vendor dump.
So, we are given the choice to play alts, but then punished when we play alts? That makes no sense.Spacefish2323 wrote: »Those are choices, and choices have tradeoffs. Don't have enough bank space for all your gear because transmute isn't good enough in your opinion because tempers aren't free? Okay, play less characters.
Everything we do in life is a "choice", but there are also methods of manipulating people to make those choices, this is well documented and in part what the entire advertising world is built around. The game is extremely time consuming (without needing to be) and frustrating if one intends to play the game fully without ESO+.Spacefish2323 wrote: »Wait, you want to play more characters, but that might mean managing them? And that management is easier if you make the choice to buy ESO+? That choice is yours.
The rewards are fine and I have no issue with them, but without ESO+ they are punishing as the OP stated. The amount of inventory management and time required to balance multiple characters is insane without ESO+Spacefish2323 wrote: »If items coming into your inventory is punishment, then ESO is self-flagellation. You feel like the majority of the reward are trash? Okay, fair enough. But they are trying to reward players with the event, the exact opposite of punish them. And the difference is entirely in the eye of the ungrateful beholder.
Which takes me back to...."The Craft Bag should be baked into the base game, and not a feature of ESO+".
But then, few would sub to ESO+ right?
The craft bag should be base game and not ESO+ is a position I agree with personally (I'm guessing FOMO over Crown houses and cosmetics pays the bills at Zenimax, but bean-counters love revenue forecasting from recurring payments). That being the main issue is your inserted hobbyhorse over the substantive claim that the EVENT is punishing specifically to non-subs. But the event is no more or less like the entirely of the game, which ENCOURAGES ESO+ purchases vis-a-vis a stick behind the core RPG loop's carrots if you don't have it (or punishes them for not having it, if you must. Though this punishment can be easily avoided by walking away). The event is just the game on steroids: you play, you get loot, you manage loot. Now you just get more loot. Heaven forfend Zenimax keeps giving us more things. That's how games die.
The act of managing inventory without ESO+ (or rather the craft bag) during this event, is punishing. It's not fun, it takes a massive amount of time away from actually doing something fun/productive with ones time in game. That time has a finite amount due to real world activities such as work, sleep, eating, etc.
This is not debatable, unless someone finds bag/inventory management fun, which I would assert an extremely small amount of the populous does ( I base my claim on observations of player feedback and developer implementations over a plethora of games and game genres through a 20 years course of making inventory management easier).
You are still beating the same horse but just using the event to do it. Let's concede for the sake of argument: inventory management in ESO is onerous and even punishing (why do we or even the OP engage our precious time away from eating and sleeping in this act of self-flagellation is a question that will enthrall future anthropologists, perhaps?). And inventory management is what ZOS has always been selling. Want to PvP on equal footing, play a FPS where everyone has the same stats. Want to accrue wealth, play a survival game. Want to play ESO... then engage with the vagaries and nuances of an RPG and that always included bag management.
Flip the script. What should be done, assuming (as we both very well know) that ESO+ will not be made a base feature. Again, this is a separate issue on which we seem to radically agree)? A) No inventory rewards for events, everyone is punished. B ) No event rewards without ESO+ (lets see who feels punished now!). C) Zenimax, having been persuaded by the unfair punishment they inflicted on people who willingly chose to play their game for free being felt burdened just decided to start working for free. Since C is never going to happen, the cries of despair will only ever result in A). Not everyone gets cake, so no cake.
ESO+ for "free" during the event period when boxes are being given out with a ton of materials.
Now you get it. If they were smarter, they would do this instead. [snip] Everyone still gets the event, and new people get to hop on the merry-go-round. Carrots not sticks. The event is a carrot. ESO+ is the stick that fuels the game. Some of us like carrots and the ride.
Pro-tip. I always "got it".
Then just walk away and stop choosing to be punished. At least for the duration of the event.
I never chose to be punished. I have paid for ESO+ for every minute I have ever played this game, but I also possess the ability to understand the other side of the coin.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on April 8, 2025 5:41PM"Class identity isn’t just about power or efficiency. It’s about symbolic clarity, mechanical cohesion, and a shared visual and tactical language between players." - sans-culottes1 -
Spacefish2323✭✭✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »
"Junk" items are mostly crafting materials that have little value at the trader, but are valuable when it comes time to craft and therefore can not be done without. They are not "junk" in the sense of items we should vendor, but "junk" in t he sense that they take up a ton of space.Spacefish2323 wrote: »
It's not punishment to be given extra rewards just because you feel like they are junk. Most of the items in the game are junk outside of the statsticks and consumables if your mindset is pure optimization.
The entirety of this game is desinged to funnel the player to use ESO+ and to purchase crown crates. This is not a conspriacy theory but a very basic observation (and EXTREMELY obvious to those with design educations). The craft bag and amount of drops from any given source illustrate this.
What is the limiting principle? The craft bag should be base game, NOT eso+.Spacefish2323 wrote: »Where then is the limiting principle: without ESO+ you shouldn't be inflicted with motifs? Furnishings? What else? Nothing but gear ugprades and BIS consumables? Punishment would be not being given those items and what choice you have to do with them, event or no.
Also two things can be punishable at the same time.
So you are suggesting that one should not play part of the game because t hey do not have ESO+? That proves my point.Spacefish2323 wrote: »No one is forcing anyone to dig up maps or do anything with their inventory besides vendor dump.
So, we are given the choice to play alts, but then punished when we play alts? That makes no sense.Spacefish2323 wrote: »Those are choices, and choices have tradeoffs. Don't have enough bank space for all your gear because transmute isn't good enough in your opinion because tempers aren't free? Okay, play less characters.
Everything we do in life is a "choice", but there are also methods of manipulating people to make those choices, this is well documented and in part what the entire advertising world is built around. The game is extremely time consuming (without needing to be) and frustrating if one intends to play the game fully without ESO+.Spacefish2323 wrote: »Wait, you want to play more characters, but that might mean managing them? And that management is easier if you make the choice to buy ESO+? That choice is yours.
The rewards are fine and I have no issue with them, but without ESO+ they are punishing as the OP stated. The amount of inventory management and time required to balance multiple characters is insane without ESO+Spacefish2323 wrote: »If items coming into your inventory is punishment, then ESO is self-flagellation. You feel like the majority of the reward are trash? Okay, fair enough. But they are trying to reward players with the event, the exact opposite of punish them. And the difference is entirely in the eye of the ungrateful beholder.
Which takes me back to...."The Craft Bag should be baked into the base game, and not a feature of ESO+".
But then, few would sub to ESO+ right?
The craft bag should be base game and not ESO+ is a position I agree with personally (I'm guessing FOMO over Crown houses and cosmetics pays the bills at Zenimax, but bean-counters love revenue forecasting from recurring payments). That being the main issue is your inserted hobbyhorse over the substantive claim that the EVENT is punishing specifically to non-subs. But the event is no more or less like the entirely of the game, which ENCOURAGES ESO+ purchases vis-a-vis a stick behind the core RPG loop's carrots if you don't have it (or punishes them for not having it, if you must. Though this punishment can be easily avoided by walking away). The event is just the game on steroids: you play, you get loot, you manage loot. Now you just get more loot. Heaven forfend Zenimax keeps giving us more things. That's how games die.
The act of managing inventory without ESO+ (or rather the craft bag) during this event, is punishing. It's not fun, it takes a massive amount of time away from actually doing something fun/productive with ones time in game. That time has a finite amount due to real world activities such as work, sleep, eating, etc.
This is not debatable, unless someone finds bag/inventory management fun, which I would assert an extremely small amount of the populous does ( I base my claim on observations of player feedback and developer implementations over a plethora of games and game genres through a 20 years course of making inventory management easier).
You are still beating the same horse but just using the event to do it. Let's concede for the sake of argument: inventory management in ESO is onerous and even punishing (why do we or even the OP engage our precious time away from eating and sleeping in this act of self-flagellation is a question that will enthrall future anthropologists, perhaps?). And inventory management is what ZOS has always been selling. Want to PvP on equal footing, play a FPS where everyone has the same stats. Want to accrue wealth, play a survival game. Want to play ESO... then engage with the vagaries and nuances of an RPG and that always included bag management.
Flip the script. What should be done, assuming (as we both very well know) that ESO+ will not be made a base feature. Again, this is a separate issue on which we seem to radically agree)? A) No inventory rewards for events, everyone is punished. B ) No event rewards without ESO+ (lets see who feels punished now!). C) Zenimax, having been persuaded by the unfair punishment they inflicted on people who willingly chose to play their game for free being felt burdened just decided to start working for free. Since C is never going to happen, the cries of despair will only ever result in A). Not everyone gets cake, so no cake.
ESO+ for "free" during the event period when boxes are being given out with a ton of materials.
Now you get it. If they were smarter, they would do this instead. [snip] Everyone still gets the event, and new people get to hop on the merry-go-round. Carrots not sticks. The event is a carrot. ESO+ is the stick that fuels the game. Some of us like carrots and the ride.
Pro-tip. I always "got it".
Then just walk away and stop choosing to be punished. At least for the duration of the event.
I never chose to be punished. I have paid for ESO+ for every minute I have ever played this game, but I also possess the ability to understand the other side of the coin.
I have also never been unsubbed whenever playin the game actively (BETA to 2020, and now returning recently). I have played ESO for richer and poorer. Before it was even optional to play, when I had an upper middle class job before health circumstances put me on disability. When I was too sick to play, I logged in once in awhile to gaze at the vistas of Glenumbra and Al'Akir. And managing my bag then, when I didn't have the strength to play much, and therefore did not pay, was a pain. But I never didn't understand that ZOS is a for-profit company, not a human a right. 15$ USD isn't a big ask in a world of medical bills, my friend. So which side of the coin don't I see? If games don't cost money, there are no games. If there are no events to mark the passage of time, and bring perhaps new people into the pasttimes we love because they are just punishing cashgrabs, because really that's what the game is-- a thing for sale-- then why bother? They gave you more and told them it wasn't enought, when it was just a boon.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on April 8, 2025 5:42PM2 -
Pixiepumpkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »
"Junk" items are mostly crafting materials that have little value at the trader, but are valuable when it comes time to craft and therefore can not be done without. They are not "junk" in the sense of items we should vendor, but "junk" in t he sense that they take up a ton of space.Spacefish2323 wrote: »
It's not punishment to be given extra rewards just because you feel like they are junk. Most of the items in the game are junk outside of the statsticks and consumables if your mindset is pure optimization.
The entirety of this game is desinged to funnel the player to use ESO+ and to purchase crown crates. This is not a conspriacy theory but a very basic observation (and EXTREMELY obvious to those with design educations). The craft bag and amount of drops from any given source illustrate this.
What is the limiting principle? The craft bag should be base game, NOT eso+.Spacefish2323 wrote: »Where then is the limiting principle: without ESO+ you shouldn't be inflicted with motifs? Furnishings? What else? Nothing but gear ugprades and BIS consumables? Punishment would be not being given those items and what choice you have to do with them, event or no.
Also two things can be punishable at the same time.
So you are suggesting that one should not play part of the game because t hey do not have ESO+? That proves my point.Spacefish2323 wrote: »No one is forcing anyone to dig up maps or do anything with their inventory besides vendor dump.
So, we are given the choice to play alts, but then punished when we play alts? That makes no sense.Spacefish2323 wrote: »Those are choices, and choices have tradeoffs. Don't have enough bank space for all your gear because transmute isn't good enough in your opinion because tempers aren't free? Okay, play less characters.
Everything we do in life is a "choice", but there are also methods of manipulating people to make those choices, this is well documented and in part what the entire advertising world is built around. The game is extremely time consuming (without needing to be) and frustrating if one intends to play the game fully without ESO+.Spacefish2323 wrote: »Wait, you want to play more characters, but that might mean managing them? And that management is easier if you make the choice to buy ESO+? That choice is yours.
The rewards are fine and I have no issue with them, but without ESO+ they are punishing as the OP stated. The amount of inventory management and time required to balance multiple characters is insane without ESO+Spacefish2323 wrote: »If items coming into your inventory is punishment, then ESO is self-flagellation. You feel like the majority of the reward are trash? Okay, fair enough. But they are trying to reward players with the event, the exact opposite of punish them. And the difference is entirely in the eye of the ungrateful beholder.
Which takes me back to...."The Craft Bag should be baked into the base game, and not a feature of ESO+".
But then, few would sub to ESO+ right?
The craft bag should be base game and not ESO+ is a position I agree with personally (I'm guessing FOMO over Crown houses and cosmetics pays the bills at Zenimax, but bean-counters love revenue forecasting from recurring payments). That being the main issue is your inserted hobbyhorse over the substantive claim that the EVENT is punishing specifically to non-subs. But the event is no more or less like the entirely of the game, which ENCOURAGES ESO+ purchases vis-a-vis a stick behind the core RPG loop's carrots if you don't have it (or punishes them for not having it, if you must. Though this punishment can be easily avoided by walking away). The event is just the game on steroids: you play, you get loot, you manage loot. Now you just get more loot. Heaven forfend Zenimax keeps giving us more things. That's how games die.
The act of managing inventory without ESO+ (or rather the craft bag) during this event, is punishing. It's not fun, it takes a massive amount of time away from actually doing something fun/productive with ones time in game. That time has a finite amount due to real world activities such as work, sleep, eating, etc.
This is not debatable, unless someone finds bag/inventory management fun, which I would assert an extremely small amount of the populous does ( I base my claim on observations of player feedback and developer implementations over a plethora of games and game genres through a 20 years course of making inventory management easier).
You are still beating the same horse but just using the event to do it. Let's concede for the sake of argument: inventory management in ESO is onerous and even punishing (why do we or even the OP engage our precious time away from eating and sleeping in this act of self-flagellation is a question that will enthrall future anthropologists, perhaps?). And inventory management is what ZOS has always been selling. Want to PvP on equal footing, play a FPS where everyone has the same stats. Want to accrue wealth, play a survival game. Want to play ESO... then engage with the vagaries and nuances of an RPG and that always included bag management.
Flip the script. What should be done, assuming (as we both very well know) that ESO+ will not be made a base feature. Again, this is a separate issue on which we seem to radically agree)? A) No inventory rewards for events, everyone is punished. B ) No event rewards without ESO+ (lets see who feels punished now!). C) Zenimax, having been persuaded by the unfair punishment they inflicted on people who willingly chose to play their game for free being felt burdened just decided to start working for free. Since C is never going to happen, the cries of despair will only ever result in A). Not everyone gets cake, so no cake.
ESO+ for "free" during the event period when boxes are being given out with a ton of materials.
Now you get it. If they were smarter, they would do this instead. [snip] Everyone still gets the event, and new people get to hop on the merry-go-round. Carrots not sticks. The event is a carrot. ESO+ is the stick that fuels the game. Some of us like carrots and the ride.
Pro-tip. I always "got it".
Then just walk away and stop choosing to be punished. At least for the duration of the event.
I never chose to be punished. I have paid for ESO+ for every minute I have ever played this game, but I also possess the ability to understand the other side of the coin.
I have also never been unsubbed whenever playin the game actively (BETA to 2020, and now returning recently). I have played ESO for richer and poorer. Before it was even optional to play, when I had an upper middle class job before health circumstances put me on disability. When I was too sick to play, I logged in once in awhile to gaze at the vistas of Glenumbra and Al'Akir. And managing my bag then, when I didn't have the strength to play much, and therefore did not pay, was a pain. But I never didn't understand that ZOS is a for-profit company, not a human a right. 15$ USD isn't a big ask in a world of medical bills, my friend. So which side of the coin don't I see? If games don't cost money, there are no games. If there are no events to mark the passage of time, and bring perhaps new people into the pasttimes we love because they are just punishing cashgrabs, because really that's what the game is-- a thing for sale-- then why bother? They gave you more and told them it wasn't enought, when it was just a boon.
At what point did I ever suggest that ZOS should not make money?
I'll answer that for you.
NEVER
I wont bore you with my life story, but I am a designer by trade. There are ethical ways to do design a product for a business to make money, and there are unethical ways. You can probably guess my feeling on ZOS.
There are other options/avenues to take to make money in this game and I would argue they could make MORE.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on April 8, 2025 5:43PM"Class identity isn’t just about power or efficiency. It’s about symbolic clarity, mechanical cohesion, and a shared visual and tactical language between players." - sans-culottes0 -
Spacefish2323✭✭✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »
"Junk" items are mostly crafting materials that have little value at the trader, but are valuable when it comes time to craft and therefore can not be done without. They are not "junk" in the sense of items we should vendor, but "junk" in t he sense that they take up a ton of space.Spacefish2323 wrote: »
It's not punishment to be given extra rewards just because you feel like they are junk. Most of the items in the game are junk outside of the statsticks and consumables if your mindset is pure optimization.
The entirety of this game is desinged to funnel the player to use ESO+ and to purchase crown crates. This is not a conspriacy theory but a very basic observation (and EXTREMELY obvious to those with design educations). The craft bag and amount of drops from any given source illustrate this.
What is the limiting principle? The craft bag should be base game, NOT eso+.Spacefish2323 wrote: »Where then is the limiting principle: without ESO+ you shouldn't be inflicted with motifs? Furnishings? What else? Nothing but gear ugprades and BIS consumables? Punishment would be not being given those items and what choice you have to do with them, event or no.
Also two things can be punishable at the same time.
So you are suggesting that one should not play part of the game because t hey do not have ESO+? That proves my point.Spacefish2323 wrote: »No one is forcing anyone to dig up maps or do anything with their inventory besides vendor dump.
So, we are given the choice to play alts, but then punished when we play alts? That makes no sense.Spacefish2323 wrote: »Those are choices, and choices have tradeoffs. Don't have enough bank space for all your gear because transmute isn't good enough in your opinion because tempers aren't free? Okay, play less characters.
Everything we do in life is a "choice", but there are also methods of manipulating people to make those choices, this is well documented and in part what the entire advertising world is built around. The game is extremely time consuming (without needing to be) and frustrating if one intends to play the game fully without ESO+.Spacefish2323 wrote: »Wait, you want to play more characters, but that might mean managing them? And that management is easier if you make the choice to buy ESO+? That choice is yours.
The rewards are fine and I have no issue with them, but without ESO+ they are punishing as the OP stated. The amount of inventory management and time required to balance multiple characters is insane without ESO+Spacefish2323 wrote: »If items coming into your inventory is punishment, then ESO is self-flagellation. You feel like the majority of the reward are trash? Okay, fair enough. But they are trying to reward players with the event, the exact opposite of punish them. And the difference is entirely in the eye of the ungrateful beholder.
Which takes me back to...."The Craft Bag should be baked into the base game, and not a feature of ESO+".
But then, few would sub to ESO+ right?
The craft bag should be base game and not ESO+ is a position I agree with personally (I'm guessing FOMO over Crown houses and cosmetics pays the bills at Zenimax, but bean-counters love revenue forecasting from recurring payments). That being the main issue is your inserted hobbyhorse over the substantive claim that the EVENT is punishing specifically to non-subs. But the event is no more or less like the entirely of the game, which ENCOURAGES ESO+ purchases vis-a-vis a stick behind the core RPG loop's carrots if you don't have it (or punishes them for not having it, if you must. Though this punishment can be easily avoided by walking away). The event is just the game on steroids: you play, you get loot, you manage loot. Now you just get more loot. Heaven forfend Zenimax keeps giving us more things. That's how games die.
The act of managing inventory without ESO+ (or rather the craft bag) during this event, is punishing. It's not fun, it takes a massive amount of time away from actually doing something fun/productive with ones time in game. That time has a finite amount due to real world activities such as work, sleep, eating, etc.
This is not debatable, unless someone finds bag/inventory management fun, which I would assert an extremely small amount of the populous does ( I base my claim on observations of player feedback and developer implementations over a plethora of games and game genres through a 20 years course of making inventory management easier).
You are still beating the same horse but just using the event to do it. Let's concede for the sake of argument: inventory management in ESO is onerous and even punishing (why do we or even the OP engage our precious time away from eating and sleeping in this act of self-flagellation is a question that will enthrall future anthropologists, perhaps?). And inventory management is what ZOS has always been selling. Want to PvP on equal footing, play a FPS where everyone has the same stats. Want to accrue wealth, play a survival game. Want to play ESO... then engage with the vagaries and nuances of an RPG and that always included bag management.
Flip the script. What should be done, assuming (as we both very well know) that ESO+ will not be made a base feature. Again, this is a separate issue on which we seem to radically agree)? A) No inventory rewards for events, everyone is punished. B ) No event rewards without ESO+ (lets see who feels punished now!). C) Zenimax, having been persuaded by the unfair punishment they inflicted on people who willingly chose to play their game for free being felt burdened just decided to start working for free. Since C is never going to happen, the cries of despair will only ever result in A). Not everyone gets cake, so no cake.
ESO+ for "free" during the event period when boxes are being given out with a ton of materials.
Now you get it. If they were smarter, they would do this instead. [snip] Everyone still gets the event, and new people get to hop on the merry-go-round. Carrots not sticks. The event is a carrot. ESO+ is the stick that fuels the game. Some of us like carrots and the ride.
Pro-tip. I always "got it".
Then just walk away and stop choosing to be punished. At least for the duration of the event.
I never chose to be punished. I have paid for ESO+ for every minute I have ever played this game, but I also possess the ability to understand the other side of the coin.
I have also never been unsubbed whenever playin the game actively (BETA to 2020, and now returning recently). I have played ESO for richer and poorer. Before it was even optional to play, when I had an upper middle class job before health circumstances put me on disability. When I was too sick to play, I logged in once in awhile to gaze at the vistas of Glenumbra and Al'Akir. And managing my bag then, when I didn't have the strength to play much, and therefore did not pay, was a pain. But I never didn't understand that ZOS is a for-profit company, not a human a right. 15$ USD isn't a big ask in a world of medical bills, my friend. So which side of the coin don't I see? If games don't cost money, there are no games. If there are no events to mark the passage of time, and bring perhaps new people into the pasttimes we love because they are just punishing cashgrabs, because really that's what the game is-- a thing for sale-- then why bother? They gave you more and told them it wasn't enought, when it was just a boon.
At what point did I ever suggest that ZOS should not make money?
I'll answer that for you.
NEVER
I wont bore you with my life story, but I am a designer by trade. There are ethical ways to do design a product for a business to make money, and there are unethical ways. You can probably guess my feeling on ZOS.
There are other options/avenues to take to make money in this game and I would argue they could make MORE.
You say you understand design, so what are events designed to do? Enhancing the effect that the game has always existed to promulgate. Reward customer loyalty, invite new customers to receive the same. This is how ZOS believes that they, and demonstably have, made profit. Again, again, how is the event substainatively different from the core gameplay loop other than acceleration? If this business models offends, then don't participate. I think they have better ways of making money, but open whole other cans for worms, like FOMOing adolscents into gambling. They don't post S&P ESG scores but I suspect that if they did they would be surprisingly high given their commitment to inclusion (unless you are poor. but every business hates the poor). If the event is punishment, then everyone would agree to stop being punishment. This Fact: not found in evidence.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on April 8, 2025 5:43PM0 -
sans-culottes✭✭✭✭✭
✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ChuckyPayne wrote: »Personal Assistant addon help a lot, save lots of time. Auto-junk, auto-sell, auto-deposit, auto-widraw, auto-refine, auto-repair etc., etc. It help lot without eso+, but helps with eso+ too.
If I would play without eso+, 2 way. 5 merchant guild and sell everything, or 0 merchant guild and junk and auto sell everything. End maybe find an auto-destroy addon to destroy gold event containers.
Is that available on consoles?
At present, consoles do not support any mods. This support is in the works, but currently it’s just in the pipeline.Edited by sans-culottes on April 8, 2025 11:48AM0 -
Pixiepumpkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »
"Junk" items are mostly crafting materials that have little value at the trader, but are valuable when it comes time to craft and therefore can not be done without. They are not "junk" in the sense of items we should vendor, but "junk" in t he sense that they take up a ton of space.Spacefish2323 wrote: »
It's not punishment to be given extra rewards just because you feel like they are junk. Most of the items in the game are junk outside of the statsticks and consumables if your mindset is pure optimization.
The entirety of this game is desinged to funnel the player to use ESO+ and to purchase crown crates. This is not a conspriacy theory but a very basic observation (and EXTREMELY obvious to those with design educations). The craft bag and amount of drops from any given source illustrate this.
What is the limiting principle? The craft bag should be base game, NOT eso+.Spacefish2323 wrote: »Where then is the limiting principle: without ESO+ you shouldn't be inflicted with motifs? Furnishings? What else? Nothing but gear ugprades and BIS consumables? Punishment would be not being given those items and what choice you have to do with them, event or no.
Also two things can be punishable at the same time.
So you are suggesting that one should not play part of the game because t hey do not have ESO+? That proves my point.Spacefish2323 wrote: »No one is forcing anyone to dig up maps or do anything with their inventory besides vendor dump.
So, we are given the choice to play alts, but then punished when we play alts? That makes no sense.Spacefish2323 wrote: »Those are choices, and choices have tradeoffs. Don't have enough bank space for all your gear because transmute isn't good enough in your opinion because tempers aren't free? Okay, play less characters.
Everything we do in life is a "choice", but there are also methods of manipulating people to make those choices, this is well documented and in part what the entire advertising world is built around. The game is extremely time consuming (without needing to be) and frustrating if one intends to play the game fully without ESO+.Spacefish2323 wrote: »Wait, you want to play more characters, but that might mean managing them? And that management is easier if you make the choice to buy ESO+? That choice is yours.
The rewards are fine and I have no issue with them, but without ESO+ they are punishing as the OP stated. The amount of inventory management and time required to balance multiple characters is insane without ESO+Spacefish2323 wrote: »If items coming into your inventory is punishment, then ESO is self-flagellation. You feel like the majority of the reward are trash? Okay, fair enough. But they are trying to reward players with the event, the exact opposite of punish them. And the difference is entirely in the eye of the ungrateful beholder.
Which takes me back to...."The Craft Bag should be baked into the base game, and not a feature of ESO+".
But then, few would sub to ESO+ right?
The craft bag should be base game and not ESO+ is a position I agree with personally (I'm guessing FOMO over Crown houses and cosmetics pays the bills at Zenimax, but bean-counters love revenue forecasting from recurring payments). That being the main issue is your inserted hobbyhorse over the substantive claim that the EVENT is punishing specifically to non-subs. But the event is no more or less like the entirely of the game, which ENCOURAGES ESO+ purchases vis-a-vis a stick behind the core RPG loop's carrots if you don't have it (or punishes them for not having it, if you must. Though this punishment can be easily avoided by walking away). The event is just the game on steroids: you play, you get loot, you manage loot. Now you just get more loot. Heaven forfend Zenimax keeps giving us more things. That's how games die.
The act of managing inventory without ESO+ (or rather the craft bag) during this event, is punishing. It's not fun, it takes a massive amount of time away from actually doing something fun/productive with ones time in game. That time has a finite amount due to real world activities such as work, sleep, eating, etc.
This is not debatable, unless someone finds bag/inventory management fun, which I would assert an extremely small amount of the populous does ( I base my claim on observations of player feedback and developer implementations over a plethora of games and game genres through a 20 years course of making inventory management easier).
You are still beating the same horse but just using the event to do it. Let's concede for the sake of argument: inventory management in ESO is onerous and even punishing (why do we or even the OP engage our precious time away from eating and sleeping in this act of self-flagellation is a question that will enthrall future anthropologists, perhaps?). And inventory management is what ZOS has always been selling. Want to PvP on equal footing, play a FPS where everyone has the same stats. Want to accrue wealth, play a survival game. Want to play ESO... then engage with the vagaries and nuances of an RPG and that always included bag management.
Flip the script. What should be done, assuming (as we both very well know) that ESO+ will not be made a base feature. Again, this is a separate issue on which we seem to radically agree)? A) No inventory rewards for events, everyone is punished. B ) No event rewards without ESO+ (lets see who feels punished now!). C) Zenimax, having been persuaded by the unfair punishment they inflicted on people who willingly chose to play their game for free being felt burdened just decided to start working for free. Since C is never going to happen, the cries of despair will only ever result in A). Not everyone gets cake, so no cake.
ESO+ for "free" during the event period when boxes are being given out with a ton of materials.
Now you get it. If they were smarter, they would do this instead. [snip] Everyone still gets the event, and new people get to hop on the merry-go-round. Carrots not sticks. The event is a carrot. ESO+ is the stick that fuels the game. Some of us like carrots and the ride.
Pro-tip. I always "got it".
Then just walk away and stop choosing to be punished. At least for the duration of the event.
I never chose to be punished. I have paid for ESO+ for every minute I have ever played this game, but I also possess the ability to understand the other side of the coin.
I have also never been unsubbed whenever playin the game actively (BETA to 2020, and now returning recently). I have played ESO for richer and poorer. Before it was even optional to play, when I had an upper middle class job before health circumstances put me on disability. When I was too sick to play, I logged in once in awhile to gaze at the vistas of Glenumbra and Al'Akir. And managing my bag then, when I didn't have the strength to play much, and therefore did not pay, was a pain. But I never didn't understand that ZOS is a for-profit company, not a human a right. 15$ USD isn't a big ask in a world of medical bills, my friend. So which side of the coin don't I see? If games don't cost money, there are no games. If there are no events to mark the passage of time, and bring perhaps new people into the pasttimes we love because they are just punishing cashgrabs, because really that's what the game is-- a thing for sale-- then why bother? They gave you more and told them it wasn't enought, when it was just a boon.
At what point did I ever suggest that ZOS should not make money?
I'll answer that for you.
NEVER
I wont bore you with my life story, but I am a designer by trade. There are ethical ways to do design a product for a business to make money, and there are unethical ways. You can probably guess my feeling on ZOS.
There are other options/avenues to take to make money in this game and I would argue they could make MORE.
You say you understand design, so what are events designed to do? Enhancing the effect that the game has always existed to promulgate. Reward customer loyalty, invite new customers to receive the same. This is how ZOS believes that they, and demonstably have, made profit. Again, again, how is the event substainatively different from the core gameplay loop other than acceleration? If this business models offends, then don't participate. I think they have better ways of making money, but open whole other cans for worms, like FOMOing adolscents into gambling. They don't post S&P ESG scores but I suspect that if they did they would be surprisingly high given their commitment to inclusion (unless you are poor. but every business hates the poor). If the event is punishment, then everyone would agree to stop being punishment. This Fact: not found in evidence.
The event is punishing to those who do not have ESO+ (or rather the craft bag).
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on April 8, 2025 5:44PM"Class identity isn’t just about power or efficiency. It’s about symbolic clarity, mechanical cohesion, and a shared visual and tactical language between players." - sans-culottes1 -
magnusthorek✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yeah… I'm usually proud of myself for managing playing the inventory management game quite well with only the big/small house chests, but this event made it so hard to the point I'm seriously considering stopping hoarding low level materials.
C'mon, ZOS. Can't you do something better to (I imagine) at least half of the player base who can't can't or won't subscribe for the sole purpose of the Crafting Bag? ArenaNet does that with GW2 and still thriving despite being a relatively free game, and you certainly are much better than they are — or at least with more funds.I am the very model of a scientist Salarian, I've studied species Turian, Asari, and Batarian.
I'm quite good at genetics (as a subset of biology) because I am an expert (which I know is a tautology).
My xenoscience studies range from urban to agrarian, I am the very model of a Scientist Salarian.3 -
ChuckyPayne✭✭✭✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »...
Is that available on consoles?
Sooner or later maybe, ZOS did first steps with console addons, when addons arrives there, you guys will feel a different world
Now you only work in the game, after it you can start to play 
0 -
sans-culottes✭✭✭✭✭
✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »
"Junk" items are mostly crafting materials that have little value at the trader, but are valuable when it comes time to craft and therefore can not be done without. They are not "junk" in the sense of items we should vendor, but "junk" in t he sense that they take up a ton of space.Spacefish2323 wrote: »
It's not punishment to be given extra rewards just because you feel like they are junk. Most of the items in the game are junk outside of the statsticks and consumables if your mindset is pure optimization.
The entirety of this game is desinged to funnel the player to use ESO+ and to purchase crown crates. This is not a conspriacy theory but a very basic observation (and EXTREMELY obvious to those with design educations). The craft bag and amount of drops from any given source illustrate this.
What is the limiting principle? The craft bag should be base game, NOT eso+.Spacefish2323 wrote: »Where then is the limiting principle: without ESO+ you shouldn't be inflicted with motifs? Furnishings? What else? Nothing but gear ugprades and BIS consumables? Punishment would be not being given those items and what choice you have to do with them, event or no.
Also two things can be punishable at the same time.
So you are suggesting that one should not play part of the game because t hey do not have ESO+? That proves my point.Spacefish2323 wrote: »No one is forcing anyone to dig up maps or do anything with their inventory besides vendor dump.
So, we are given the choice to play alts, but then punished when we play alts? That makes no sense.Spacefish2323 wrote: »Those are choices, and choices have tradeoffs. Don't have enough bank space for all your gear because transmute isn't good enough in your opinion because tempers aren't free? Okay, play less characters.
Everything we do in life is a "choice", but there are also methods of manipulating people to make those choices, this is well documented and in part what the entire advertising world is built around. The game is extremely time consuming (without needing to be) and frustrating if one intends to play the game fully without ESO+.Spacefish2323 wrote: »Wait, you want to play more characters, but that might mean managing them? And that management is easier if you make the choice to buy ESO+? That choice is yours.
The rewards are fine and I have no issue with them, but without ESO+ they are punishing as the OP stated. The amount of inventory management and time required to balance multiple characters is insane without ESO+Spacefish2323 wrote: »If items coming into your inventory is punishment, then ESO is self-flagellation. You feel like the majority of the reward are trash? Okay, fair enough. But they are trying to reward players with the event, the exact opposite of punish them. And the difference is entirely in the eye of the ungrateful beholder.
Which takes me back to...."The Craft Bag should be baked into the base game, and not a feature of ESO+".
But then, few would sub to ESO+ right?
The craft bag should be base game and not ESO+ is a position I agree with personally (I'm guessing FOMO over Crown houses and cosmetics pays the bills at Zenimax, but bean-counters love revenue forecasting from recurring payments). That being the main issue is your inserted hobbyhorse over the substantive claim that the EVENT is punishing specifically to non-subs. But the event is no more or less like the entirely of the game, which ENCOURAGES ESO+ purchases vis-a-vis a stick behind the core RPG loop's carrots if you don't have it (or punishes them for not having it, if you must. Though this punishment can be easily avoided by walking away). The event is just the game on steroids: you play, you get loot, you manage loot. Now you just get more loot. Heaven forfend Zenimax keeps giving us more things. That's how games die.
The act of managing inventory without ESO+ (or rather the craft bag) during this event, is punishing. It's not fun, it takes a massive amount of time away from actually doing something fun/productive with ones time in game. That time has a finite amount due to real world activities such as work, sleep, eating, etc.
This is not debatable, unless someone finds bag/inventory management fun, which I would assert an extremely small amount of the populous does ( I base my claim on observations of player feedback and developer implementations over a plethora of games and game genres through a 20 years course of making inventory management easier).
You are still beating the same horse but just using the event to do it. Let's concede for the sake of argument: inventory management in ESO is onerous and even punishing (why do we or even the OP engage our precious time away from eating and sleeping in this act of self-flagellation is a question that will enthrall future anthropologists, perhaps?). And inventory management is what ZOS has always been selling. Want to PvP on equal footing, play a FPS where everyone has the same stats. Want to accrue wealth, play a survival game. Want to play ESO... then engage with the vagaries and nuances of an RPG and that always included bag management.
Flip the script. What should be done, assuming (as we both very well know) that ESO+ will not be made a base feature. Again, this is a separate issue on which we seem to radically agree)? A) No inventory rewards for events, everyone is punished. B ) No event rewards without ESO+ (lets see who feels punished now!). C) Zenimax, having been persuaded by the unfair punishment they inflicted on people who willingly chose to play their game for free being felt burdened just decided to start working for free. Since C is never going to happen, the cries of despair will only ever result in A). Not everyone gets cake, so no cake.
ESO+ for "free" during the event period when boxes are being given out with a ton of materials.
Now you get it. If they were smarter, they would do this instead. [snip] Everyone still gets the event, and new people get to hop on the merry-go-round. Carrots not sticks. The event is a carrot. ESO+ is the stick that fuels the game. Some of us like carrots and the ride.
Pro-tip. I always "got it".
Then just walk away and stop choosing to be punished. At least for the duration of the event.
I never chose to be punished. I have paid for ESO+ for every minute I have ever played this game, but I also possess the ability to understand the other side of the coin.
I have also never been unsubbed whenever playin the game actively (BETA to 2020, and now returning recently). I have played ESO for richer and poorer. Before it was even optional to play, when I had an upper middle class job before health circumstances put me on disability. When I was too sick to play, I logged in once in awhile to gaze at the vistas of Glenumbra and Al'Akir. And managing my bag then, when I didn't have the strength to play much, and therefore did not pay, was a pain. But I never didn't understand that ZOS is a for-profit company, not a human a right. 15$ USD isn't a big ask in a world of medical bills, my friend. So which side of the coin don't I see? If games don't cost money, there are no games. If there are no events to mark the passage of time, and bring perhaps new people into the pasttimes we love because they are just punishing cashgrabs, because really that's what the game is-- a thing for sale-- then why bother? They gave you more and told them it wasn't enought, when it was just a boon.
At what point did I ever suggest that ZOS should not make money?
I'll answer that for you.
NEVER
I wont bore you with my life story, but I am a designer by trade. There are ethical ways to do design a product for a business to make money, and there are unethical ways. You can probably guess my feeling on ZOS.
There are other options/avenues to take to make money in this game and I would argue they could make MORE.
You say you understand design, so what are events designed to do? Enhancing the effect that the game has always existed to promulgate. Reward customer loyalty, invite new customers to receive the same. This is how ZOS believes that they, and demonstably have, made profit. Again, again, how is the event substainatively different from the core gameplay loop other than acceleration? If this business models offends, then don't participate. I think they have better ways of making money, but open whole other cans for worms, like FOMOing adolscents into gambling. They don't post S&P ESG scores but I suspect that if they did they would be surprisingly high given their commitment to inclusion (unless you are poor. but every business hates the poor). If the event is punishment, then everyone would agree to stop being punishment. This Fact: not found in evidence.
The event is punishing to those who do not have ESO+ (or rather the craft bag).
I think “punishing” is perhaps a bit hyperbolic. Can it be frustrating? Sure. But as you said, part of the goal is to get players to view the opportunity cost of an ESO+ subscription as “worth it” precisely because of the inconvenience.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on April 8, 2025 5:44PM2 -
Spacefish2323✭✭✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »
"Junk" items are mostly crafting materials that have little value at the trader, but are valuable when it comes time to craft and therefore can not be done without. They are not "junk" in the sense of items we should vendor, but "junk" in t he sense that they take up a ton of space.Spacefish2323 wrote: »
It's not punishment to be given extra rewards just because you feel like they are junk. Most of the items in the game are junk outside of the statsticks and consumables if your mindset is pure optimization.
The entirety of this game is desinged to funnel the player to use ESO+ and to purchase crown crates. This is not a conspriacy theory but a very basic observation (and EXTREMELY obvious to those with design educations). The craft bag and amount of drops from any given source illustrate this.
What is the limiting principle? The craft bag should be base game, NOT eso+.Spacefish2323 wrote: »Where then is the limiting principle: without ESO+ you shouldn't be inflicted with motifs? Furnishings? What else? Nothing but gear ugprades and BIS consumables? Punishment would be not being given those items and what choice you have to do with them, event or no.
Also two things can be punishable at the same time.
So you are suggesting that one should not play part of the game because t hey do not have ESO+? That proves my point.Spacefish2323 wrote: »No one is forcing anyone to dig up maps or do anything with their inventory besides vendor dump.
So, we are given the choice to play alts, but then punished when we play alts? That makes no sense.Spacefish2323 wrote: »Those are choices, and choices have tradeoffs. Don't have enough bank space for all your gear because transmute isn't good enough in your opinion because tempers aren't free? Okay, play less characters.
Everything we do in life is a "choice", but there are also methods of manipulating people to make those choices, this is well documented and in part what the entire advertising world is built around. The game is extremely time consuming (without needing to be) and frustrating if one intends to play the game fully without ESO+.Spacefish2323 wrote: »Wait, you want to play more characters, but that might mean managing them? And that management is easier if you make the choice to buy ESO+? That choice is yours.
The rewards are fine and I have no issue with them, but without ESO+ they are punishing as the OP stated. The amount of inventory management and time required to balance multiple characters is insane without ESO+Spacefish2323 wrote: »If items coming into your inventory is punishment, then ESO is self-flagellation. You feel like the majority of the reward are trash? Okay, fair enough. But they are trying to reward players with the event, the exact opposite of punish them. And the difference is entirely in the eye of the ungrateful beholder.
Which takes me back to...."The Craft Bag should be baked into the base game, and not a feature of ESO+".
But then, few would sub to ESO+ right?
The craft bag should be base game and not ESO+ is a position I agree with personally (I'm guessing FOMO over Crown houses and cosmetics pays the bills at Zenimax, but bean-counters love revenue forecasting from recurring payments). That being the main issue is your inserted hobbyhorse over the substantive claim that the EVENT is punishing specifically to non-subs. But the event is no more or less like the entirely of the game, which ENCOURAGES ESO+ purchases vis-a-vis a stick behind the core RPG loop's carrots if you don't have it (or punishes them for not having it, if you must. Though this punishment can be easily avoided by walking away). The event is just the game on steroids: you play, you get loot, you manage loot. Now you just get more loot. Heaven forfend Zenimax keeps giving us more things. That's how games die.
The act of managing inventory without ESO+ (or rather the craft bag) during this event, is punishing. It's not fun, it takes a massive amount of time away from actually doing something fun/productive with ones time in game. That time has a finite amount due to real world activities such as work, sleep, eating, etc.
This is not debatable, unless someone finds bag/inventory management fun, which I would assert an extremely small amount of the populous does ( I base my claim on observations of player feedback and developer implementations over a plethora of games and game genres through a 20 years course of making inventory management easier).
You are still beating the same horse but just using the event to do it. Let's concede for the sake of argument: inventory management in ESO is onerous and even punishing (why do we or even the OP engage our precious time away from eating and sleeping in this act of self-flagellation is a question that will enthrall future anthropologists, perhaps?). And inventory management is what ZOS has always been selling. Want to PvP on equal footing, play a FPS where everyone has the same stats. Want to accrue wealth, play a survival game. Want to play ESO... then engage with the vagaries and nuances of an RPG and that always included bag management.
Flip the script. What should be done, assuming (as we both very well know) that ESO+ will not be made a base feature. Again, this is a separate issue on which we seem to radically agree)? A) No inventory rewards for events, everyone is punished. B ) No event rewards without ESO+ (lets see who feels punished now!). C) Zenimax, having been persuaded by the unfair punishment they inflicted on people who willingly chose to play their game for free being felt burdened just decided to start working for free. Since C is never going to happen, the cries of despair will only ever result in A). Not everyone gets cake, so no cake.
ESO+ for "free" during the event period when boxes are being given out with a ton of materials.
Now you get it. If they were smarter, they would do this instead. [snip] Everyone still gets the event, and new people get to hop on the merry-go-round. Carrots not sticks. The event is a carrot. ESO+ is the stick that fuels the game. Some of us like carrots and the ride.
Pro-tip. I always "got it".
Then just walk away and stop choosing to be punished. At least for the duration of the event.
I never chose to be punished. I have paid for ESO+ for every minute I have ever played this game, but I also possess the ability to understand the other side of the coin.
I have also never been unsubbed whenever playin the game actively (BETA to 2020, and now returning recently). I have played ESO for richer and poorer. Before it was even optional to play, when I had an upper middle class job before health circumstances put me on disability. When I was too sick to play, I logged in once in awhile to gaze at the vistas of Glenumbra and Al'Akir. And managing my bag then, when I didn't have the strength to play much, and therefore did not pay, was a pain. But I never didn't understand that ZOS is a for-profit company, not a human a right. 15$ USD isn't a big ask in a world of medical bills, my friend. So which side of the coin don't I see? If games don't cost money, there are no games. If there are no events to mark the passage of time, and bring perhaps new people into the pasttimes we love because they are just punishing cashgrabs, because really that's what the game is-- a thing for sale-- then why bother? They gave you more and told them it wasn't enought, when it was just a boon.
At what point did I ever suggest that ZOS should not make money?
I'll answer that for you.
NEVER
I wont bore you with my life story, but I am a designer by trade. There are ethical ways to do design a product for a business to make money, and there are unethical ways. You can probably guess my feeling on ZOS.
There are other options/avenues to take to make money in this game and I would argue they could make MORE.
You say you understand design, so what are events designed to do? Enhancing the effect that the game has always existed to promulgate. Reward customer loyalty, invite new customers to receive the same. This is how ZOS believes that they, and demonstably have, made profit. Again, again, how is the event substainatively different from the core gameplay loop other than acceleration? If this business models offends, then don't participate. I think they have better ways of making money, but open whole other cans for worms, like FOMOing adolscents into gambling. They don't post S&P ESG scores but I suspect that if they did they would be surprisingly high given their commitment to inclusion (unless you are poor. but every business hates the poor). If the event is punishment, then everyone would agree to stop being punishment. This Fact: not found in evidence.
The event is punishing to those who do not have ESO+ (or rather the craft bag).
Then let them stop being punished by choosing the ardous ordeal of not participating in the inhumanity of being given free stuff for the time being. There is a great big world full of grass and flowers and other video games, this magical power that they all possess to walk away and instantly free themselves from the chains of oppresssion ZOS invaded their homes to shacke them with must be availed! Because they did not have the craft bag, they could not play ESO for a few weeks. They could even not play it, EVER, for the wounds of memory are indeible! We will welcome any of these wayward lambs back into the fold who survived the tyranny of the annivery event with open arms, and can only weep for them until then and thosw we lost. This is a big ask, but I believe many will survive it. In the future we will be sure to unburden them of any drops in dungeons that do not fit their build as we see it, or any other inhumane choices they might be inflicted with.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on April 8, 2025 5:45PM4 -
Pixiepumpkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭sans-culottes wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »
"Junk" items are mostly crafting materials that have little value at the trader, but are valuable when it comes time to craft and therefore can not be done without. They are not "junk" in the sense of items we should vendor, but "junk" in t he sense that they take up a ton of space.Spacefish2323 wrote: »
It's not punishment to be given extra rewards just because you feel like they are junk. Most of the items in the game are junk outside of the statsticks and consumables if your mindset is pure optimization.
The entirety of this game is desinged to funnel the player to use ESO+ and to purchase crown crates. This is not a conspriacy theory but a very basic observation (and EXTREMELY obvious to those with design educations). The craft bag and amount of drops from any given source illustrate this.
What is the limiting principle? The craft bag should be base game, NOT eso+.Spacefish2323 wrote: »Where then is the limiting principle: without ESO+ you shouldn't be inflicted with motifs? Furnishings? What else? Nothing but gear ugprades and BIS consumables? Punishment would be not being given those items and what choice you have to do with them, event or no.
Also two things can be punishable at the same time.
So you are suggesting that one should not play part of the game because t hey do not have ESO+? That proves my point.Spacefish2323 wrote: »No one is forcing anyone to dig up maps or do anything with their inventory besides vendor dump.
So, we are given the choice to play alts, but then punished when we play alts? That makes no sense.Spacefish2323 wrote: »Those are choices, and choices have tradeoffs. Don't have enough bank space for all your gear because transmute isn't good enough in your opinion because tempers aren't free? Okay, play less characters.
Everything we do in life is a "choice", but there are also methods of manipulating people to make those choices, this is well documented and in part what the entire advertising world is built around. The game is extremely time consuming (without needing to be) and frustrating if one intends to play the game fully without ESO+.Spacefish2323 wrote: »Wait, you want to play more characters, but that might mean managing them? And that management is easier if you make the choice to buy ESO+? That choice is yours.
The rewards are fine and I have no issue with them, but without ESO+ they are punishing as the OP stated. The amount of inventory management and time required to balance multiple characters is insane without ESO+Spacefish2323 wrote: »If items coming into your inventory is punishment, then ESO is self-flagellation. You feel like the majority of the reward are trash? Okay, fair enough. But they are trying to reward players with the event, the exact opposite of punish them. And the difference is entirely in the eye of the ungrateful beholder.
Which takes me back to...."The Craft Bag should be baked into the base game, and not a feature of ESO+".
But then, few would sub to ESO+ right?
The craft bag should be base game and not ESO+ is a position I agree with personally (I'm guessing FOMO over Crown houses and cosmetics pays the bills at Zenimax, but bean-counters love revenue forecasting from recurring payments). That being the main issue is your inserted hobbyhorse over the substantive claim that the EVENT is punishing specifically to non-subs. But the event is no more or less like the entirely of the game, which ENCOURAGES ESO+ purchases vis-a-vis a stick behind the core RPG loop's carrots if you don't have it (or punishes them for not having it, if you must. Though this punishment can be easily avoided by walking away). The event is just the game on steroids: you play, you get loot, you manage loot. Now you just get more loot. Heaven forfend Zenimax keeps giving us more things. That's how games die.
The act of managing inventory without ESO+ (or rather the craft bag) during this event, is punishing. It's not fun, it takes a massive amount of time away from actually doing something fun/productive with ones time in game. That time has a finite amount due to real world activities such as work, sleep, eating, etc.
This is not debatable, unless someone finds bag/inventory management fun, which I would assert an extremely small amount of the populous does ( I base my claim on observations of player feedback and developer implementations over a plethora of games and game genres through a 20 years course of making inventory management easier).
You are still beating the same horse but just using the event to do it. Let's concede for the sake of argument: inventory management in ESO is onerous and even punishing (why do we or even the OP engage our precious time away from eating and sleeping in this act of self-flagellation is a question that will enthrall future anthropologists, perhaps?). And inventory management is what ZOS has always been selling. Want to PvP on equal footing, play a FPS where everyone has the same stats. Want to accrue wealth, play a survival game. Want to play ESO... then engage with the vagaries and nuances of an RPG and that always included bag management.
Flip the script. What should be done, assuming (as we both very well know) that ESO+ will not be made a base feature. Again, this is a separate issue on which we seem to radically agree)? A) No inventory rewards for events, everyone is punished. B ) No event rewards without ESO+ (lets see who feels punished now!). C) Zenimax, having been persuaded by the unfair punishment they inflicted on people who willingly chose to play their game for free being felt burdened just decided to start working for free. Since C is never going to happen, the cries of despair will only ever result in A). Not everyone gets cake, so no cake.
ESO+ for "free" during the event period when boxes are being given out with a ton of materials.
Now you get it. If they were smarter, they would do this instead. [snip] Everyone still gets the event, and new people get to hop on the merry-go-round. Carrots not sticks. The event is a carrot. ESO+ is the stick that fuels the game. Some of us like carrots and the ride.
Pro-tip. I always "got it".
Then just walk away and stop choosing to be punished. At least for the duration of the event.
I never chose to be punished. I have paid for ESO+ for every minute I have ever played this game, but I also possess the ability to understand the other side of the coin.
I have also never been unsubbed whenever playin the game actively (BETA to 2020, and now returning recently). I have played ESO for richer and poorer. Before it was even optional to play, when I had an upper middle class job before health circumstances put me on disability. When I was too sick to play, I logged in once in awhile to gaze at the vistas of Glenumbra and Al'Akir. And managing my bag then, when I didn't have the strength to play much, and therefore did not pay, was a pain. But I never didn't understand that ZOS is a for-profit company, not a human a right. 15$ USD isn't a big ask in a world of medical bills, my friend. So which side of the coin don't I see? If games don't cost money, there are no games. If there are no events to mark the passage of time, and bring perhaps new people into the pasttimes we love because they are just punishing cashgrabs, because really that's what the game is-- a thing for sale-- then why bother? They gave you more and told them it wasn't enought, when it was just a boon.
At what point did I ever suggest that ZOS should not make money?
I'll answer that for you.
NEVER
I wont bore you with my life story, but I am a designer by trade. There are ethical ways to do design a product for a business to make money, and there are unethical ways. You can probably guess my feeling on ZOS.
There are other options/avenues to take to make money in this game and I would argue they could make MORE.
You say you understand design, so what are events designed to do? Enhancing the effect that the game has always existed to promulgate. Reward customer loyalty, invite new customers to receive the same. This is how ZOS believes that they, and demonstably have, made profit. Again, again, how is the event substainatively different from the core gameplay loop other than acceleration? If this business models offends, then don't participate. I think they have better ways of making money, but open whole other cans for worms, like FOMOing adolscents into gambling. They don't post S&P ESG scores but I suspect that if they did they would be surprisingly high given their commitment to inclusion (unless you are poor. but every business hates the poor). If the event is punishment, then everyone would agree to stop being punishment. This Fact: not found in evidence.
The event is punishing to those who do not have ESO+ (or rather the craft bag).
I think “punishing” is perhaps a bit hyperbolic. Can it be frustrating? Sure. But as you said, part of the goal is to get players to view the opportunity cost of an ESO+ subscription as “worth it” precisely because of the inconvenience.
But that is why I believe its predatory. Its not upfront, its not transparent. It's "suggesting" or "leading" the player to pay for the service. By contrast, wow has a sub model and everything is up front. No loot boxes, no paying for cosmetics (their store is insanely small compared to what drops in game for cosmetics/mounts). You can pay for yoru sub in wow with gold, making it TRULY a box copy purchase only, and you get the full game.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on April 8, 2025 5:45PM"Class identity isn’t just about power or efficiency. It’s about symbolic clarity, mechanical cohesion, and a shared visual and tactical language between players." - sans-culottes1 -
Pixiepumpkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »
"Junk" items are mostly crafting materials that have little value at the trader, but are valuable when it comes time to craft and therefore can not be done without. They are not "junk" in the sense of items we should vendor, but "junk" in t he sense that they take up a ton of space.Spacefish2323 wrote: »
It's not punishment to be given extra rewards just because you feel like they are junk. Most of the items in the game are junk outside of the statsticks and consumables if your mindset is pure optimization.
The entirety of this game is desinged to funnel the player to use ESO+ and to purchase crown crates. This is not a conspriacy theory but a very basic observation (and EXTREMELY obvious to those with design educations). The craft bag and amount of drops from any given source illustrate this.
What is the limiting principle? The craft bag should be base game, NOT eso+.Spacefish2323 wrote: »Where then is the limiting principle: without ESO+ you shouldn't be inflicted with motifs? Furnishings? What else? Nothing but gear ugprades and BIS consumables? Punishment would be not being given those items and what choice you have to do with them, event or no.
Also two things can be punishable at the same time.
So you are suggesting that one should not play part of the game because t hey do not have ESO+? That proves my point.Spacefish2323 wrote: »No one is forcing anyone to dig up maps or do anything with their inventory besides vendor dump.
So, we are given the choice to play alts, but then punished when we play alts? That makes no sense.Spacefish2323 wrote: »Those are choices, and choices have tradeoffs. Don't have enough bank space for all your gear because transmute isn't good enough in your opinion because tempers aren't free? Okay, play less characters.
Everything we do in life is a "choice", but there are also methods of manipulating people to make those choices, this is well documented and in part what the entire advertising world is built around. The game is extremely time consuming (without needing to be) and frustrating if one intends to play the game fully without ESO+.Spacefish2323 wrote: »Wait, you want to play more characters, but that might mean managing them? And that management is easier if you make the choice to buy ESO+? That choice is yours.
The rewards are fine and I have no issue with them, but without ESO+ they are punishing as the OP stated. The amount of inventory management and time required to balance multiple characters is insane without ESO+Spacefish2323 wrote: »If items coming into your inventory is punishment, then ESO is self-flagellation. You feel like the majority of the reward are trash? Okay, fair enough. But they are trying to reward players with the event, the exact opposite of punish them. And the difference is entirely in the eye of the ungrateful beholder.
Which takes me back to...."The Craft Bag should be baked into the base game, and not a feature of ESO+".
But then, few would sub to ESO+ right?
The craft bag should be base game and not ESO+ is a position I agree with personally (I'm guessing FOMO over Crown houses and cosmetics pays the bills at Zenimax, but bean-counters love revenue forecasting from recurring payments). That being the main issue is your inserted hobbyhorse over the substantive claim that the EVENT is punishing specifically to non-subs. But the event is no more or less like the entirely of the game, which ENCOURAGES ESO+ purchases vis-a-vis a stick behind the core RPG loop's carrots if you don't have it (or punishes them for not having it, if you must. Though this punishment can be easily avoided by walking away). The event is just the game on steroids: you play, you get loot, you manage loot. Now you just get more loot. Heaven forfend Zenimax keeps giving us more things. That's how games die.
The act of managing inventory without ESO+ (or rather the craft bag) during this event, is punishing. It's not fun, it takes a massive amount of time away from actually doing something fun/productive with ones time in game. That time has a finite amount due to real world activities such as work, sleep, eating, etc.
This is not debatable, unless someone finds bag/inventory management fun, which I would assert an extremely small amount of the populous does ( I base my claim on observations of player feedback and developer implementations over a plethora of games and game genres through a 20 years course of making inventory management easier).
You are still beating the same horse but just using the event to do it. Let's concede for the sake of argument: inventory management in ESO is onerous and even punishing (why do we or even the OP engage our precious time away from eating and sleeping in this act of self-flagellation is a question that will enthrall future anthropologists, perhaps?). And inventory management is what ZOS has always been selling. Want to PvP on equal footing, play a FPS where everyone has the same stats. Want to accrue wealth, play a survival game. Want to play ESO... then engage with the vagaries and nuances of an RPG and that always included bag management.
Flip the script. What should be done, assuming (as we both very well know) that ESO+ will not be made a base feature. Again, this is a separate issue on which we seem to radically agree)? A) No inventory rewards for events, everyone is punished. B ) No event rewards without ESO+ (lets see who feels punished now!). C) Zenimax, having been persuaded by the unfair punishment they inflicted on people who willingly chose to play their game for free being felt burdened just decided to start working for free. Since C is never going to happen, the cries of despair will only ever result in A). Not everyone gets cake, so no cake.
ESO+ for "free" during the event period when boxes are being given out with a ton of materials.
Now you get it. If they were smarter, they would do this instead. [snip] Everyone still gets the event, and new people get to hop on the merry-go-round. Carrots not sticks. The event is a carrot. ESO+ is the stick that fuels the game. Some of us like carrots and the ride.
Pro-tip. I always "got it".
Then just walk away and stop choosing to be punished. At least for the duration of the event.
I never chose to be punished. I have paid for ESO+ for every minute I have ever played this game, but I also possess the ability to understand the other side of the coin.
I have also never been unsubbed whenever playin the game actively (BETA to 2020, and now returning recently). I have played ESO for richer and poorer. Before it was even optional to play, when I had an upper middle class job before health circumstances put me on disability. When I was too sick to play, I logged in once in awhile to gaze at the vistas of Glenumbra and Al'Akir. And managing my bag then, when I didn't have the strength to play much, and therefore did not pay, was a pain. But I never didn't understand that ZOS is a for-profit company, not a human a right. 15$ USD isn't a big ask in a world of medical bills, my friend. So which side of the coin don't I see? If games don't cost money, there are no games. If there are no events to mark the passage of time, and bring perhaps new people into the pasttimes we love because they are just punishing cashgrabs, because really that's what the game is-- a thing for sale-- then why bother? They gave you more and told them it wasn't enought, when it was just a boon.
At what point did I ever suggest that ZOS should not make money?
I'll answer that for you.
NEVER
I wont bore you with my life story, but I am a designer by trade. There are ethical ways to do design a product for a business to make money, and there are unethical ways. You can probably guess my feeling on ZOS.
There are other options/avenues to take to make money in this game and I would argue they could make MORE.
You say you understand design, so what are events designed to do? Enhancing the effect that the game has always existed to promulgate. Reward customer loyalty, invite new customers to receive the same. This is how ZOS believes that they, and demonstably have, made profit. Again, again, how is the event substainatively different from the core gameplay loop other than acceleration? If this business models offends, then don't participate. I think they have better ways of making money, but open whole other cans for worms, like FOMOing adolscents into gambling. They don't post S&P ESG scores but I suspect that if they did they would be surprisingly high given their commitment to inclusion (unless you are poor. but every business hates the poor). If the event is punishment, then everyone would agree to stop being punishment. This Fact: not found in evidence.
The event is punishing to those who do not have ESO+ (or rather the craft bag).
Then let them stop being punished by choosing the ardous ordeal of not participating in the inhumanity of being given free stuff for the time being. There is a great big world full of grass and flowers and other video games, this magical power that they all possess to walk away and instantly free themselves from the chains of oppresssion ZOS invaded their homes to shacke them with must be availed! Because they did not have the craft bag, they could not play ESO for a few weeks. They could even not play it, EVER, for the wounds of memory are indeible! We will welcome any of these wayward lambs back into the fold who survived the tyranny of the annivery event with open arms, and can only weep for them until then and thosw we lost. This is a big ask, but I believe many will survive it. In the future we will be sure to unburden them of any drops in dungeons that do not fit their build as we see it, or any other inhumane choices they might be inflicted with.
The issue is not free stuff, the issue is free stuff taking up all the bag space because the game is literally designed to flood your bag space with a ton of stuff, unless you pay for ESO+.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on April 8, 2025 5:46PM"Class identity isn’t just about power or efficiency. It’s about symbolic clarity, mechanical cohesion, and a shared visual and tactical language between players." - sans-culottes2 -
Spacefish2323✭✭✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »
"Junk" items are mostly crafting materials that have little value at the trader, but are valuable when it comes time to craft and therefore can not be done without. They are not "junk" in the sense of items we should vendor, but "junk" in t he sense that they take up a ton of space.Spacefish2323 wrote: »
It's not punishment to be given extra rewards just because you feel like they are junk. Most of the items in the game are junk outside of the statsticks and consumables if your mindset is pure optimization.
The entirety of this game is desinged to funnel the player to use ESO+ and to purchase crown crates. This is not a conspriacy theory but a very basic observation (and EXTREMELY obvious to those with design educations). The craft bag and amount of drops from any given source illustrate this.
What is the limiting principle? The craft bag should be base game, NOT eso+.Spacefish2323 wrote: »Where then is the limiting principle: without ESO+ you shouldn't be inflicted with motifs? Furnishings? What else? Nothing but gear ugprades and BIS consumables? Punishment would be not being given those items and what choice you have to do with them, event or no.
Also two things can be punishable at the same time.
So you are suggesting that one should not play part of the game because t hey do not have ESO+? That proves my point.Spacefish2323 wrote: »No one is forcing anyone to dig up maps or do anything with their inventory besides vendor dump.
So, we are given the choice to play alts, but then punished when we play alts? That makes no sense.Spacefish2323 wrote: »Those are choices, and choices have tradeoffs. Don't have enough bank space for all your gear because transmute isn't good enough in your opinion because tempers aren't free? Okay, play less characters.
Everything we do in life is a "choice", but there are also methods of manipulating people to make those choices, this is well documented and in part what the entire advertising world is built around. The game is extremely time consuming (without needing to be) and frustrating if one intends to play the game fully without ESO+.Spacefish2323 wrote: »Wait, you want to play more characters, but that might mean managing them? And that management is easier if you make the choice to buy ESO+? That choice is yours.
The rewards are fine and I have no issue with them, but without ESO+ they are punishing as the OP stated. The amount of inventory management and time required to balance multiple characters is insane without ESO+Spacefish2323 wrote: »If items coming into your inventory is punishment, then ESO is self-flagellation. You feel like the majority of the reward are trash? Okay, fair enough. But they are trying to reward players with the event, the exact opposite of punish them. And the difference is entirely in the eye of the ungrateful beholder.
Which takes me back to...."The Craft Bag should be baked into the base game, and not a feature of ESO+".
But then, few would sub to ESO+ right?
The craft bag should be base game and not ESO+ is a position I agree with personally (I'm guessing FOMO over Crown houses and cosmetics pays the bills at Zenimax, but bean-counters love revenue forecasting from recurring payments). That being the main issue is your inserted hobbyhorse over the substantive claim that the EVENT is punishing specifically to non-subs. But the event is no more or less like the entirely of the game, which ENCOURAGES ESO+ purchases vis-a-vis a stick behind the core RPG loop's carrots if you don't have it (or punishes them for not having it, if you must. Though this punishment can be easily avoided by walking away). The event is just the game on steroids: you play, you get loot, you manage loot. Now you just get more loot. Heaven forfend Zenimax keeps giving us more things. That's how games die.
The act of managing inventory without ESO+ (or rather the craft bag) during this event, is punishing. It's not fun, it takes a massive amount of time away from actually doing something fun/productive with ones time in game. That time has a finite amount due to real world activities such as work, sleep, eating, etc.
This is not debatable, unless someone finds bag/inventory management fun, which I would assert an extremely small amount of the populous does ( I base my claim on observations of player feedback and developer implementations over a plethora of games and game genres through a 20 years course of making inventory management easier).
You are still beating the same horse but just using the event to do it. Let's concede for the sake of argument: inventory management in ESO is onerous and even punishing (why do we or even the OP engage our precious time away from eating and sleeping in this act of self-flagellation is a question that will enthrall future anthropologists, perhaps?). And inventory management is what ZOS has always been selling. Want to PvP on equal footing, play a FPS where everyone has the same stats. Want to accrue wealth, play a survival game. Want to play ESO... then engage with the vagaries and nuances of an RPG and that always included bag management.
Flip the script. What should be done, assuming (as we both very well know) that ESO+ will not be made a base feature. Again, this is a separate issue on which we seem to radically agree)? A) No inventory rewards for events, everyone is punished. B ) No event rewards without ESO+ (lets see who feels punished now!). C) Zenimax, having been persuaded by the unfair punishment they inflicted on people who willingly chose to play their game for free being felt burdened just decided to start working for free. Since C is never going to happen, the cries of despair will only ever result in A). Not everyone gets cake, so no cake.
ESO+ for "free" during the event period when boxes are being given out with a ton of materials.
Now you get it. If they were smarter, they would do this instead. [snip] Everyone still gets the event, and new people get to hop on the merry-go-round. Carrots not sticks. The event is a carrot. ESO+ is the stick that fuels the game. Some of us like carrots and the ride.
Pro-tip. I always "got it".
Then just walk away and stop choosing to be punished. At least for the duration of the event.
I never chose to be punished. I have paid for ESO+ for every minute I have ever played this game, but I also possess the ability to understand the other side of the coin.
I have also never been unsubbed whenever playin the game actively (BETA to 2020, and now returning recently). I have played ESO for richer and poorer. Before it was even optional to play, when I had an upper middle class job before health circumstances put me on disability. When I was too sick to play, I logged in once in awhile to gaze at the vistas of Glenumbra and Al'Akir. And managing my bag then, when I didn't have the strength to play much, and therefore did not pay, was a pain. But I never didn't understand that ZOS is a for-profit company, not a human a right. 15$ USD isn't a big ask in a world of medical bills, my friend. So which side of the coin don't I see? If games don't cost money, there are no games. If there are no events to mark the passage of time, and bring perhaps new people into the pasttimes we love because they are just punishing cashgrabs, because really that's what the game is-- a thing for sale-- then why bother? They gave you more and told them it wasn't enought, when it was just a boon.
At what point did I ever suggest that ZOS should not make money?
I'll answer that for you.
NEVER
I wont bore you with my life story, but I am a designer by trade. There are ethical ways to do design a product for a business to make money, and there are unethical ways. You can probably guess my feeling on ZOS.
There are other options/avenues to take to make money in this game and I would argue they could make MORE.
You say you understand design, so what are events designed to do? Enhancing the effect that the game has always existed to promulgate. Reward customer loyalty, invite new customers to receive the same. This is how ZOS believes that they, and demonstably have, made profit. Again, again, how is the event substainatively different from the core gameplay loop other than acceleration? If this business models offends, then don't participate. I think they have better ways of making money, but open whole other cans for worms, like FOMOing adolscents into gambling. They don't post S&P ESG scores but I suspect that if they did they would be surprisingly high given their commitment to inclusion (unless you are poor. but every business hates the poor). If the event is punishment, then everyone would agree to stop being punishment. This Fact: not found in evidence.
The event is punishing to those who do not have ESO+ (or rather the craft bag).
Then let them stop being punished by choosing the ardous ordeal of not participating in the inhumanity of being given free stuff for the time being. There is a great big world full of grass and flowers and other video games, this magical power that they all possess to walk away and instantly free themselves from the chains of oppresssion ZOS invaded their homes to shacke them with must be availed! Because they did not have the craft bag, they could not play ESO for a few weeks. They could even not play it, EVER, for the wounds of memory are indeible! We will welcome any of these wayward lambs back into the fold who survived the tyranny of the annivery event with open arms, and can only weep for them until then and thosw we lost. This is a big ask, but I believe many will survive it. In the future we will be sure to unburden them of any drops in dungeons that do not fit their build as we see it, or any other inhumane choices they might be inflicted with.
The issue is not free stuff, the issue is free stuff taking up all the bag space because the game is literally designed to flood your bag space with a ton of stuff, unless you pay for ESO+.
So stop giving free stuff to people who aren't ESO+. That will solve their "problem" full stop. I'm sure this won't result in any claims of unfairness.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on April 8, 2025 5:46PM4 -
Pixiepumpkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »
"Junk" items are mostly crafting materials that have little value at the trader, but are valuable when it comes time to craft and therefore can not be done without. They are not "junk" in the sense of items we should vendor, but "junk" in t he sense that they take up a ton of space.Spacefish2323 wrote: »
It's not punishment to be given extra rewards just because you feel like they are junk. Most of the items in the game are junk outside of the statsticks and consumables if your mindset is pure optimization.
The entirety of this game is desinged to funnel the player to use ESO+ and to purchase crown crates. This is not a conspriacy theory but a very basic observation (and EXTREMELY obvious to those with design educations). The craft bag and amount of drops from any given source illustrate this.
What is the limiting principle? The craft bag should be base game, NOT eso+.Spacefish2323 wrote: »Where then is the limiting principle: without ESO+ you shouldn't be inflicted with motifs? Furnishings? What else? Nothing but gear ugprades and BIS consumables? Punishment would be not being given those items and what choice you have to do with them, event or no.
Also two things can be punishable at the same time.
So you are suggesting that one should not play part of the game because t hey do not have ESO+? That proves my point.Spacefish2323 wrote: »No one is forcing anyone to dig up maps or do anything with their inventory besides vendor dump.
So, we are given the choice to play alts, but then punished when we play alts? That makes no sense.Spacefish2323 wrote: »Those are choices, and choices have tradeoffs. Don't have enough bank space for all your gear because transmute isn't good enough in your opinion because tempers aren't free? Okay, play less characters.
Everything we do in life is a "choice", but there are also methods of manipulating people to make those choices, this is well documented and in part what the entire advertising world is built around. The game is extremely time consuming (without needing to be) and frustrating if one intends to play the game fully without ESO+.Spacefish2323 wrote: »Wait, you want to play more characters, but that might mean managing them? And that management is easier if you make the choice to buy ESO+? That choice is yours.
The rewards are fine and I have no issue with them, but without ESO+ they are punishing as the OP stated. The amount of inventory management and time required to balance multiple characters is insane without ESO+Spacefish2323 wrote: »If items coming into your inventory is punishment, then ESO is self-flagellation. You feel like the majority of the reward are trash? Okay, fair enough. But they are trying to reward players with the event, the exact opposite of punish them. And the difference is entirely in the eye of the ungrateful beholder.
Which takes me back to...."The Craft Bag should be baked into the base game, and not a feature of ESO+".
But then, few would sub to ESO+ right?
The craft bag should be base game and not ESO+ is a position I agree with personally (I'm guessing FOMO over Crown houses and cosmetics pays the bills at Zenimax, but bean-counters love revenue forecasting from recurring payments). That being the main issue is your inserted hobbyhorse over the substantive claim that the EVENT is punishing specifically to non-subs. But the event is no more or less like the entirely of the game, which ENCOURAGES ESO+ purchases vis-a-vis a stick behind the core RPG loop's carrots if you don't have it (or punishes them for not having it, if you must. Though this punishment can be easily avoided by walking away). The event is just the game on steroids: you play, you get loot, you manage loot. Now you just get more loot. Heaven forfend Zenimax keeps giving us more things. That's how games die.
The act of managing inventory without ESO+ (or rather the craft bag) during this event, is punishing. It's not fun, it takes a massive amount of time away from actually doing something fun/productive with ones time in game. That time has a finite amount due to real world activities such as work, sleep, eating, etc.
This is not debatable, unless someone finds bag/inventory management fun, which I would assert an extremely small amount of the populous does ( I base my claim on observations of player feedback and developer implementations over a plethora of games and game genres through a 20 years course of making inventory management easier).
You are still beating the same horse but just using the event to do it. Let's concede for the sake of argument: inventory management in ESO is onerous and even punishing (why do we or even the OP engage our precious time away from eating and sleeping in this act of self-flagellation is a question that will enthrall future anthropologists, perhaps?). And inventory management is what ZOS has always been selling. Want to PvP on equal footing, play a FPS where everyone has the same stats. Want to accrue wealth, play a survival game. Want to play ESO... then engage with the vagaries and nuances of an RPG and that always included bag management.
Flip the script. What should be done, assuming (as we both very well know) that ESO+ will not be made a base feature. Again, this is a separate issue on which we seem to radically agree)? A) No inventory rewards for events, everyone is punished. B ) No event rewards without ESO+ (lets see who feels punished now!). C) Zenimax, having been persuaded by the unfair punishment they inflicted on people who willingly chose to play their game for free being felt burdened just decided to start working for free. Since C is never going to happen, the cries of despair will only ever result in A). Not everyone gets cake, so no cake.
ESO+ for "free" during the event period when boxes are being given out with a ton of materials.
Now you get it. If they were smarter, they would do this instead. [snip] Everyone still gets the event, and new people get to hop on the merry-go-round. Carrots not sticks. The event is a carrot. ESO+ is the stick that fuels the game. Some of us like carrots and the ride.
Pro-tip. I always "got it".
Then just walk away and stop choosing to be punished. At least for the duration of the event.
I never chose to be punished. I have paid for ESO+ for every minute I have ever played this game, but I also possess the ability to understand the other side of the coin.
I have also never been unsubbed whenever playin the game actively (BETA to 2020, and now returning recently). I have played ESO for richer and poorer. Before it was even optional to play, when I had an upper middle class job before health circumstances put me on disability. When I was too sick to play, I logged in once in awhile to gaze at the vistas of Glenumbra and Al'Akir. And managing my bag then, when I didn't have the strength to play much, and therefore did not pay, was a pain. But I never didn't understand that ZOS is a for-profit company, not a human a right. 15$ USD isn't a big ask in a world of medical bills, my friend. So which side of the coin don't I see? If games don't cost money, there are no games. If there are no events to mark the passage of time, and bring perhaps new people into the pasttimes we love because they are just punishing cashgrabs, because really that's what the game is-- a thing for sale-- then why bother? They gave you more and told them it wasn't enought, when it was just a boon.
At what point did I ever suggest that ZOS should not make money?
I'll answer that for you.
NEVER
I wont bore you with my life story, but I am a designer by trade. There are ethical ways to do design a product for a business to make money, and there are unethical ways. You can probably guess my feeling on ZOS.
There are other options/avenues to take to make money in this game and I would argue they could make MORE.
You say you understand design, so what are events designed to do? Enhancing the effect that the game has always existed to promulgate. Reward customer loyalty, invite new customers to receive the same. This is how ZOS believes that they, and demonstably have, made profit. Again, again, how is the event substainatively different from the core gameplay loop other than acceleration? If this business models offends, then don't participate. I think they have better ways of making money, but open whole other cans for worms, like FOMOing adolscents into gambling. They don't post S&P ESG scores but I suspect that if they did they would be surprisingly high given their commitment to inclusion (unless you are poor. but every business hates the poor). If the event is punishment, then everyone would agree to stop being punishment. This Fact: not found in evidence.
The event is punishing to those who do not have ESO+ (or rather the craft bag).
Then let them stop being punished by choosing the ardous ordeal of not participating in the inhumanity of being given free stuff for the time being. There is a great big world full of grass and flowers and other video games, this magical power that they all possess to walk away and instantly free themselves from the chains of oppresssion ZOS invaded their homes to shacke them with must be availed! Because they did not have the craft bag, they could not play ESO for a few weeks. They could even not play it, EVER, for the wounds of memory are indeible! We will welcome any of these wayward lambs back into the fold who survived the tyranny of the annivery event with open arms, and can only weep for them until then and thosw we lost. This is a big ask, but I believe many will survive it. In the future we will be sure to unburden them of any drops in dungeons that do not fit their build as we see it, or any other inhumane choices they might be inflicted with.
The issue is not free stuff, the issue is free stuff taking up all the bag space because the game is literally designed to flood your bag space with a ton of stuff, unless you pay for ESO+.
So stop giving free stuff to people who aren't ESO+. That will solve their "problem" full stop. I'm sure this won't result in any claims of unfairness.
OR give ESO+ (or at the minimum the craft bag) during these events. I already suggested this.
Because, again, the issue is not the stuff. The issue is the inabilty to reasonably manage inventory.
More stuff can exist, as long as the inventory requirements are met, which is what the craft bag does.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on April 8, 2025 5:40PM"Class identity isn’t just about power or efficiency. It’s about symbolic clarity, mechanical cohesion, and a shared visual and tactical language between players." - sans-culottes1 -
Spacefish2323✭✭✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Spacefish2323 wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »
"Junk" items are mostly crafting materials that have little value at the trader, but are valuable when it comes time to craft and therefore can not be done without. They are not "junk" in the sense of items we should vendor, but "junk" in t he sense that they take up a ton of space.Spacefish2323 wrote: »
It's not punishment to be given extra rewards just because you feel like they are junk. Most of the items in the game are junk outside of the statsticks and consumables if your mindset is pure optimization.
The entirety of this game is desinged to funnel the player to use ESO+ and to purchase crown crates. This is not a conspriacy theory but a very basic observation (and EXTREMELY obvious to those with design educations). The craft bag and amount of drops from any given source illustrate this.
What is the limiting principle? The craft bag should be base game, NOT eso+.Spacefish2323 wrote: »Where then is the limiting principle: without ESO+ you shouldn't be inflicted with motifs? Furnishings? What else? Nothing but gear ugprades and BIS consumables? Punishment would be not being given those items and what choice you have to do with them, event or no.
Also two things can be punishable at the same time.
So you are suggesting that one should not play part of the game because t hey do not have ESO+? That proves my point.Spacefish2323 wrote: »No one is forcing anyone to dig up maps or do anything with their inventory besides vendor dump.
So, we are given the choice to play alts, but then punished when we play alts? That makes no sense.Spacefish2323 wrote: »Those are choices, and choices have tradeoffs. Don't have enough bank space for all your gear because transmute isn't good enough in your opinion because tempers aren't free? Okay, play less characters.
Everything we do in life is a "choice", but there are also methods of manipulating people to make those choices, this is well documented and in part what the entire advertising world is built around. The game is extremely time consuming (without needing to be) and frustrating if one intends to play the game fully without ESO+.Spacefish2323 wrote: »Wait, you want to play more characters, but that might mean managing them? And that management is easier if you make the choice to buy ESO+? That choice is yours.
The rewards are fine and I have no issue with them, but without ESO+ they are punishing as the OP stated. The amount of inventory management and time required to balance multiple characters is insane without ESO+Spacefish2323 wrote: »If items coming into your inventory is punishment, then ESO is self-flagellation. You feel like the majority of the reward are trash? Okay, fair enough. But they are trying to reward players with the event, the exact opposite of punish them. And the difference is entirely in the eye of the ungrateful beholder.
Which takes me back to...."The Craft Bag should be baked into the base game, and not a feature of ESO+".
But then, few would sub to ESO+ right?
The craft bag should be base game and not ESO+ is a position I agree with personally (I'm guessing FOMO over Crown houses and cosmetics pays the bills at Zenimax, but bean-counters love revenue forecasting from recurring payments). That being the main issue is your inserted hobbyhorse over the substantive claim that the EVENT is punishing specifically to non-subs. But the event is no more or less like the entirely of the game, which ENCOURAGES ESO+ purchases vis-a-vis a stick behind the core RPG loop's carrots if you don't have it (or punishes them for not having it, if you must. Though this punishment can be easily avoided by walking away). The event is just the game on steroids: you play, you get loot, you manage loot. Now you just get more loot. Heaven forfend Zenimax keeps giving us more things. That's how games die.
The act of managing inventory without ESO+ (or rather the craft bag) during this event, is punishing. It's not fun, it takes a massive amount of time away from actually doing something fun/productive with ones time in game. That time has a finite amount due to real world activities such as work, sleep, eating, etc.
This is not debatable, unless someone finds bag/inventory management fun, which I would assert an extremely small amount of the populous does ( I base my claim on observations of player feedback and developer implementations over a plethora of games and game genres through a 20 years course of making inventory management easier).
You are still beating the same horse but just using the event to do it. Let's concede for the sake of argument: inventory management in ESO is onerous and even punishing (why do we or even the OP engage our precious time away from eating and sleeping in this act of self-flagellation is a question that will enthrall future anthropologists, perhaps?). And inventory management is what ZOS has always been selling. Want to PvP on equal footing, play a FPS where everyone has the same stats. Want to accrue wealth, play a survival game. Want to play ESO... then engage with the vagaries and nuances of an RPG and that always included bag management.
Flip the script. What should be done, assuming (as we both very well know) that ESO+ will not be made a base feature. Again, this is a separate issue on which we seem to radically agree)? A) No inventory rewards for events, everyone is punished. B ) No event rewards without ESO+ (lets see who feels punished now!). C) Zenimax, having been persuaded by the unfair punishment they inflicted on people who willingly chose to play their game for free being felt burdened just decided to start working for free. Since C is never going to happen, the cries of despair will only ever result in A). Not everyone gets cake, so no cake.
ESO+ for "free" during the event period when boxes are being given out with a ton of materials.
Now you get it. If they were smarter, they would do this instead. [snip] Everyone still gets the event, and new people get to hop on the merry-go-round. Carrots not sticks. The event is a carrot. ESO+ is the stick that fuels the game. Some of us like carrots and the ride.
Pro-tip. I always "got it".
Then just walk away and stop choosing to be punished. At least for the duration of the event.
I never chose to be punished. I have paid for ESO+ for every minute I have ever played this game, but I also possess the ability to understand the other side of the coin.
I have also never been unsubbed whenever playin the game actively (BETA to 2020, and now returning recently). I have played ESO for richer and poorer. Before it was even optional to play, when I had an upper middle class job before health circumstances put me on disability. When I was too sick to play, I logged in once in awhile to gaze at the vistas of Glenumbra and Al'Akir. And managing my bag then, when I didn't have the strength to play much, and therefore did not pay, was a pain. But I never didn't understand that ZOS is a for-profit company, not a human a right. 15$ USD isn't a big ask in a world of medical bills, my friend. So which side of the coin don't I see? If games don't cost money, there are no games. If there are no events to mark the passage of time, and bring perhaps new people into the pasttimes we love because they are just punishing cashgrabs, because really that's what the game is-- a thing for sale-- then why bother? They gave you more and told them it wasn't enought, when it was just a boon.
At what point did I ever suggest that ZOS should not make money?
I'll answer that for you.
NEVER
I wont bore you with my life story, but I am a designer by trade. There are ethical ways to do design a product for a business to make money, and there are unethical ways. You can probably guess my feeling on ZOS.
There are other options/avenues to take to make money in this game and I would argue they could make MORE.
You say you understand design, so what are events designed to do? Enhancing the effect that the game has always existed to promulgate. Reward customer loyalty, invite new customers to receive the same. This is how ZOS believes that they, and demonstably have, made profit. Again, again, how is the event substainatively different from the core gameplay loop other than acceleration? If this business models offends, then don't participate. I think they have better ways of making money, but open whole other cans for worms, like FOMOing adolscents into gambling. They don't post S&P ESG scores but I suspect that if they did they would be surprisingly high given their commitment to inclusion (unless you are poor. but every business hates the poor). If the event is punishment, then everyone would agree to stop being punishment. This Fact: not found in evidence.
The event is punishing to those who do not have ESO+ (or rather the craft bag).
Then let them stop being punished by choosing the ardous ordeal of not participating in the inhumanity of being given free stuff for the time being. There is a great big world full of grass and flowers and other video games, this magical power that they all possess to walk away and instantly free themselves from the chains of oppresssion ZOS invaded their homes to shacke them with must be availed! Because they did not have the craft bag, they could not play ESO for a few weeks. They could even not play it, EVER, for the wounds of memory are indeible! We will welcome any of these wayward lambs back into the fold who survived the tyranny of the annivery event with open arms, and can only weep for them until then and thosw we lost. This is a big ask, but I believe many will survive it. In the future we will be sure to unburden them of any drops in dungeons that do not fit their build as we see it, or any other inhumane choices they might be inflicted with.
The issue is not free stuff, the issue is free stuff taking up all the bag space because the game is literally designed to flood your bag space with a ton of stuff, unless you pay for ESO+.
So stop giving free stuff to people who aren't ESO+. That will solve their "problem" full stop. I'm sure this won't result in any claims of unfairness.
OR give ESO+ (or at the minimum the craft bag) during these events. I already suggested this.
Because, again, the issue is not the stuff. The issue is the inabilty to reasonably manage inventory.
More stuff can exist, as long as the inventory requirements are met, which is what the craft bag does.
Give the mouse the craft bag, he will just ask for ESO+ too. Give everyone that, and then they will want all the sets needed to be competitive at the top level without putting in any effort. You can't square this circle in RPG world. ESO will be what ESO is and have events in ESO, which I find nice, but you argue are unbearable despite the people choosing to chain themselves to the supposed whipping post. If not having ESO+ is neither a luxury nor a burden to go without, then what is ESO+? Event or no. You just have a problem with ZOS's business model and want to rain on everyone else's anniversay parade. The Elder Scrolls Online Annivery Event is part of the capitalist endeavor and given your convictions you really ought to check yourself out from it if you don't want to be a raging hypocrite. Meanwhile, others will be grateful for what is given and is on offer.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on April 8, 2025 5:47PM2 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Punishing in a video game is usually used when something negatively impacts a player beyond what is viewed as reasonable if they don't take an action/don't do something. For example, missing a block causing you to die is normal. Missing a block making you restart the entire dungeon would be punishing.
I would describe not having ESO+ as punishing because they flood your inventory with hundreds of mats, making micromanaging inventory a constant part of the game. When many people sub because they'd be unable to play the game without it, that's a punishing feature.Edited by spartaxoxo on April 8, 2025 2:16PM3 -
SeaGtGruff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Grizzbeorn wrote: »SeaGtGruff wrote: »I wasn't around during Year 1 and Year 2, but I think the Anniversary Event has been a thing every year since 2015. Back then there were simply "celebrations" rather than "events" in the form we have today, but IIRC "events" in their current form began the year that Summerset was released and event tickets were added to the celebrations. But AFAIK the older celebrations did have special loot and rewards that could be acquired during the celebration.
Event Tickets were introduced with the Witches Festival in 2018.
Yep, which was the year Summerset was released. The way I remember it, first we had the Summerset Pathfinder celebration where we got the Grand Psijic Manor as the big reward, and after that we got the first set of "events" with event tickets during the fourth quarter of the year. The first group of events had the four feathers we needed to summon a Nascent Indrik, and the events during the following year (2018 2019) added the berries we needed to turn a Nascent Indrik into a special variety of Indrik-- a different Indrik mount each quarter, or four per year (plus the plain Indrik)-- and we could buy a matching pet Indrik.
But as far as when the first Anniversary celebration was held, I believe that was 2015, although I didn't start playing ESO until the very end of August 2017, so the first Anniversary celebration that I got to experience was the fourth Anniversary in 2018. At that time I was playing on just PCNA, so I don't have the 2018 cake on PCEU. The Summerset Pathfinder celebration got me started playing on PCEU, but that was some months after the 2018 Anniversary celebration.
I don't remember if the older Anniversary celebrations had reward coffers, but the older (pre-"event") versions of the Witches Festival had Plunder Skulls, so it seems likely that the older Anniversary celebrations had some kind of reward coffer. The old news announcements are archived on the main site, so it would be easy to research how the Anniversary celebration evolved over time as far as the rewards that can be reaped.
And given the facts that new motifs are added to the game each year, and we can get motif pages and style materials from the reward coffers, it's only natural that each year has even more possible rewards to fill up our inventory than the year before did. So it isn't a plot to strongarm us into subscribing to ESO Plus, just a natural consequence of more stuff being added to the game each year.Edited by SeaGtGruff on April 8, 2025 2:21PMI've fought mudcrabs more fearsome than me!0 -
Pixiepumpkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »Punishing in a video game is usually used when something negatively impacts a player beyond what is viewed as reasonable if they don't take an action/don't do something. For example, missing a block causing you to die is normal. Missing a block making you restart the entire dungeon would be punishing.
I would describe not having ESO+ as punishing because they flood your inventory with hundreds of mats, making micromanaging inventory a constant part of the game. When many people sub because they'd be unable to play the game without it, that's a punishing feature.
And inventory managment, especially during this event, costs a lot of the players time. Time that is fininte. Meaning most players only have so many hours in a day.
The craft bag should be opened up to all players during events to allow the massive amount of items being collected to be easily maintained in the craft bag, respecting the player/customers time allowing for them to do other things in game. This would not only show good faith towards the customers, but a caring attitude towards them as well. It would also stop threads like this from popping up."Class identity isn’t just about power or efficiency. It’s about symbolic clarity, mechanical cohesion, and a shared visual and tactical language between players." - sans-culottes2