Why can't we nerf Rush of Agony?

Cuwen

So, we get one great heal with Ulfsild's Contingency, and ESO nerfs it in 2 weeks (not exaggerating). But Rush of Agony has been OP for months, and ESO has done nothing. I'm tired of your obvious bias against healers, ESO.

Monte_Cristo

Ulfsild's heal is being nerfed? Aww, I use that one.

RaikaNA

Cuwen wrote: »

So, we get one great heal with Ulfsild's Contingency, and ESO nerfs it in 2 weeks (not exaggerating). But Rush of Agony has been OP for months, and ESO has done nothing. I'm tired of your obvious bias against healers, ESO.

ZOS refuses to touch any sets that Ballgroups uses because some of them are streamers.. Gotta make sure that they're happy with lots of viewers on their Twitch channels so they encourage these ballgroup streamers to continue farming causal PVP players with broken sets like Rush of Agony.

AndreNoir

I found even more funny the endless battle with "unhealthy burst sets". You know, when they are continuously killing Cluurion and Zaan by one hand at the time release Anthelmir and Tarnished Nightmare by another hand.

Nathanbreakfast

Cuwen wrote: »

So, we get one great heal with Ulfsild's Contingency, and ESO nerfs it in 2 weeks (not exaggerating). But Rush of Agony has been OP for months, and ESO has done nothing. I'm tired of your obvious bias against healers, ESO.

That heal you're referring to is drastically overpowered. It heals way harder than Breath of Life for example, costs way less and heals everybody around you. It should 100% cost just as much as the other big AOE heals (4000+ mag) in the game, not 2600 or whatever it is.

Cuwen

RaikaNA wrote: »

Cuwen wrote: »

So, we get one great heal with Ulfsild's Contingency, and ESO nerfs it in 2 weeks (not exaggerating). But Rush of Agony has been OP for months, and ESO has done nothing. I'm tired of your obvious bias against healers, ESO.

ZOS refuses to touch any sets that Ballgroups uses because some of them are streamers.. Gotta make sure that they're happy with lots of viewers on their Twitch channels so they encourage these ballgroup streamers to continue farming causal PVP players with broken sets like Rush of Agony.

Wait really? When I've watched announcements videos from them in the past, they say how they're introducing a new set to try and combat the ball groups. Although, the sets usually make the ball groups worse... Am I being a downer in now thinking that they're doing the exact opposite of what they're saying, then?

Decimus

Can you explain how exactly Rush of Agony is OP (stands for "overpowered")? I see this sentiment expressed a lot on the forums, but no one seems to have anything to say except that they think it's "OP".

If it was overpowered, wouldn't this set be run by everyone out there? Yet, if you try it on many builds (like let's say stamina templar), you'll find sets like Unleashed Terror getting you much better results.

This kind of goes against the whole "overpowered" argument.


The set does have some design issues due to how positional desync works in this game, but luckily ZOS is aware of that as pointed out by a recent post (https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8270942#Comment_8270942).

Beyond that however, I think people are confusing the issue due to the set typically being the only visible thing on your death recap when fighting ball groups. What is not visible are the following sets:
Saxhleel
Lucent Echoes
Transmutation
Spell Power Cure/Olorime
Powerful Assault
Phoenix Moth
Drake's Rush
Critical Riposte
Meritorious Service
Ozezan
Rallying Cry (depending on group size)

...just to name some of the most common ones. Now why does this matter? Because this gives literally everyone in the ball group:
41% Critical Damage (Minor Force+Major Force+11% Lucent Echoes)
40%~ Critical Resistance (depending on the group size & if Rallying Cry is used)
952 Weapon/Spell Damage (before % modifiers)
7812 Armor
Major Heroism
etc

You are pretty much doubling the damage done by not just the Rush of Agony run by one person (weird, if it was "overpowered" you'd think everyone would run the set), but every source of damage, while also making these 40k health people basically take 0 critical damage & sit at armor cap.

This is the real issue behind the scenes, and it doesn't matter what proc set is being run by one person - if ball groups want to be even more toxic and ruin gameplay even more than they already do, they could just run a DK with undodgeable chain pull and pull you from 20m away... why not throw in the new Farstrider set as well and immediately make that person take another 8-22% (based on your crit resistance) more critical damage from everyone you pulled to.


My point is... Rush of Agony is just a nice little target dummy that draws in all the aggro and if it wasn't there, nothing would change as long as the real issue remains unchanged... except you'd make plenty of normal solo builds utilizing the set for bombing unplayable.

Desiato

When it comes to ball groups, RoA is the least of my worries for sure.

It's obviously not a set that is OP on its own, but rather in terms of how it synergizes with other sets, abilities and lag.

But a set doesn't have to be OP to be a problem. It only needs to contribute to bad gameplay, which I think it does.

It has ruined open field lane fights in Cyro for me because my squishy teammates I'm not stacked with can get me killed with a vd proc, even if I am more than 20m from them (with the gap closer target between us). In each case, I react on time, but the game is so lagged that my reaction is not registered in time. It's not ball groups that get me here, it's small gank teams.

silky_soft

Farstrider applys to 1 target. It's poo like bulwark, knight slayer, cost increase poisons and defile.

ROA doesn't care about los or height or target limits. It doesn't give you cc immunity. When you are chain pulled you lose control of gcd. So your effectively interupt and cc for that time.

Decimus

Desiato wrote: »

When it comes to ball groups, RoA is the least of my worries for sure.

It's obviously not a set that is OP on its own, but rather in terms of how it synergizes with other sets, abilities and lag.

But a set doesn't have to be OP to be a problem. It only needs to contribute to bad gameplay, which I think it does.

It has ruined open field lane fights in Cyro for me because my squishy teammates I'm not stacked with can get me killed with a vd proc, even if I am more than 20m from them (with the gap closer target between us). In each case, I react on time, but the game is so lagged that my reaction is not registered in time. It's not ball groups that get me here, it's small gank teams.

That's fair - this is more accurate feedback that helps the developers make better changes where as I think just labeling something "overpowered" doesn't.

I think this problem is a lot more pronounced in Cyrodiil/IC due to lag, while in BGs it usually just feels like I messed up with the block tap if I get pulled by RoA

xylena_lazarow

Decimus wrote: »

Can you explain how exactly Rush of Agony is OP (stands for "overpowered")?

It's overpowered in that it literally overpowers the game system's typical counterplay tactics by being a stun that ignores cc immunity, it's like the 8yo designing an unstoppable character by giving him "anti-anti-invincibiliy."

It's also overpowered in that it's overloaded, being a unusually wide radius AoE proc pull that happens off-gcd, violates normal cc mechanics for the sake of automating bombing strats, does heavy AoE burst damage on top of that, and even works as a single bar 5pc activation enabling ultra efficient minmax build layouts, unlike double body sets. I can't even think of any other damage proc sets remotely as overloaded as Rushing Agony.

It's uncompetitive in that it punishes skill while rewarding automation. Whatever tactics you've learned for surviving comp group bombs without RoA in the picture now go out the window. They're getting all this value for free doing their normal (already overpowered) strat, no extra buttons or gcds, reduced awareness required. Meanwhile, countering RoA takes unusually more awareness, reflexes, and tactics to counter than any other single proc or skill in the game.

Why doesn't everyone run it? Barrier of entry. It needs enablers, it requires a specific build layout, learning a specific playstyle, specific tactics, and ideally a comp group (highest barrier) to truly abuse its potential. But once you reach beyond that barrier, it vastly increases the power of your bomb strat, vastly reducing the amount of skill and awareness required to bomb a mass of enemy players, and vastly increasing the skill barrier for said enemies to counter your bomb.

DeadlySerious

Decimus wrote: »

Can you explain how exactly Rush of Agony is OP (stands for "overpowered")? I see this sentiment expressed a lot on the forums, but no one seems to have anything to say except that they think it's "OP".

If it was overpowered, wouldn't this set be run by everyone out there? Yet, if you try it on many builds (like let's say stamina templar), you'll find sets like Unleashed Terror getting you much better results.

This kind of goes against the whole "overpowered" argument.


The set does have some design issues due to how positional desync works in this game, but luckily ZOS is aware of that as pointed out by a recent post (https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8270942#Comment_8270942).

Beyond that however, I think people are confusing the issue due to the set typically being the only visible thing on your death recap when fighting ball groups. What is not visible are the following sets:
Saxhleel
Lucent Echoes
Transmutation
Spell Power Cure/Olorime
Powerful Assault
Phoenix Moth
Drake's Rush
Critical Riposte
Meritorious Service
Ozezan
Rallying Cry (depending on group size)

...just to name some of the most common ones. Now why does this matter? Because this gives literally everyone in the ball group:
41% Critical Damage (Minor Force+Major Force+11% Lucent Echoes)
40%~ Critical Resistance (depending on the group size & if Rallying Cry is used)
952 Weapon/Spell Damage (before % modifiers)
7812 Armor
Major Heroism
etc

You are pretty much doubling the damage done by not just the Rush of Agony run by one person (weird, if it was "overpowered" you'd think everyone would run the set), but every source of damage, while also making these 40k health people basically take 0 critical damage & sit at armor cap.

This is the real issue behind the scenes, and it doesn't matter what proc set is being run by one person - if ball groups want to be even more toxic and ruin gameplay even more than they already do, they could just run a DK with undodgeable chain pull and pull you from 20m away... why not throw in the new Farstrider set as well and immediately make that person take another 8-22% (based on your crit resistance) more critical damage from everyone you pulled to.


My point is... Rush of Agony is just a nice little target dummy that draws in all the aggro and if it wasn't there, nothing would change as long as the real issue remains unchanged... except you'd make plenty of normal solo builds utilizing the set for bombing unplayable.

Except RoA IS being run by more people than any other set in Cyrodiil now days. What was your point again?

Decimus

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Can you explain how exactly Rush of Agony is OP (stands for "overpowered")?

It's overpowered in that it literally overpowers the game system's typical counterplay tactics by being a stun that ignores cc immunity, it's like the 8yo designing an unstoppable character by giving him "anti-anti-invincibiliy."

It's also overpowered in that it's overloaded, being a unusually wide radius AoE proc pull that happens off-gcd, violates normal cc mechanics for the sake of automating bombing strats, does heavy AoE burst damage on top of that, and even works as a single bar 5pc activation enabling ultra efficient minmax build layouts, unlike double body sets. I can't even think of any other damage proc sets remotely as overloaded as Rushing Agony.

It's uncompetitive in that it punishes skill while rewarding automation. Whatever tactics you've learned for surviving comp group bombs without RoA in the picture now go out the window. They're getting all this value for free doing their normal (already overpowered) strat, no extra buttons or gcds, reduced awareness required. Meanwhile, countering RoA takes unusually more awareness, reflexes, and tactics to counter than any other single proc or skill in the game.

Why doesn't everyone run it? Barrier of entry. It needs enablers, it requires a specific build layout, learning a specific playstyle, specific tactics, and ideally a comp group (highest barrier) to truly abuse its potential. But once you reach beyond that barrier, it vastly increases the power of your bomb strat, vastly reducing the amount of skill and awareness required to bomb a mass of enemy players, and vastly increasing the skill barrier for said enemies to counter your bomb.

So you're saying it requires a very specific build to utilize and it has counterplay when you have good awareness & reflexes?

That doesn't sound "overpowered" to me & what also doesn't look overpowered is the damage done on cmx when you check statistics after a BG or a long fight in Cyrodiil/IC.

I currently have 2 builds utilizing Rush of Agony (out of like 40 or so different builds atm) where I'd call it "best in slot".

One is magblade, where it really shines as a back bar set... the other one is stamcro where the delay on the pull allows you to crit rush into colossus. The strange thing is though, the stamcro bomber doesn't feel better than my magcro, which is utilizing Dark Convergence instead for bombing.

Point here is, I don't think it's fair to call the set "overpowered" - maybe the design and how it works is annoying (especially with the positional desyncs etc) and needs to be fixed, but throw all that aside and you've got a good set, but nothing you'd want to run on every character, or even on every character with a gap closer already slotted (Null Arca gets you much better results on acuity DK for example).

silky_soft wrote: »

Farstrider applys to 1 target. It's poo like bulwark, knight slayer, cost increase poisons and defile.

ROA doesn't care about los or height or target limits. It doesn't give you cc immunity. When you are chain pulled you lose control of gcd. So your effectively interupt and cc for that time.

You're looking at this from group vs group PoV and yes, for conventional AoE heavy playstyles RoA makes more sense... but that's rarely what ball groups are engaged in - usually you see a lot of these groups (not all) just trying to chase down solo/outnumbered players and these are scenarios where many other sets/approaches can work better.

These are also the situations I personally find the most annoying in PvP, but maybe that's just me.

Decimus

DeadlySerious wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Can you explain how exactly Rush of Agony is OP (stands for "overpowered")? I see this sentiment expressed a lot on the forums, but no one seems to have anything to say except that they think it's "OP".

If it was overpowered, wouldn't this set be run by everyone out there? Yet, if you try it on many builds (like let's say stamina templar), you'll find sets like Unleashed Terror getting you much better results.

This kind of goes against the whole "overpowered" argument.


The set does have some design issues due to how positional desync works in this game, but luckily ZOS is aware of that as pointed out by a recent post (https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8270942#Comment_8270942).

Beyond that however, I think people are confusing the issue due to the set typically being the only visible thing on your death recap when fighting ball groups. What is not visible are the following sets:
Saxhleel
Lucent Echoes
Transmutation
Spell Power Cure/Olorime
Powerful Assault
Phoenix Moth
Drake's Rush
Critical Riposte
Meritorious Service
Ozezan
Rallying Cry (depending on group size)

...just to name some of the most common ones. Now why does this matter? Because this gives literally everyone in the ball group:
41% Critical Damage (Minor Force+Major Force+11% Lucent Echoes)
40%~ Critical Resistance (depending on the group size & if Rallying Cry is used)
952 Weapon/Spell Damage (before % modifiers)
7812 Armor
Major Heroism
etc

You are pretty much doubling the damage done by not just the Rush of Agony run by one person (weird, if it was "overpowered" you'd think everyone would run the set), but every source of damage, while also making these 40k health people basically take 0 critical damage & sit at armor cap.

This is the real issue behind the scenes, and it doesn't matter what proc set is being run by one person - if ball groups want to be even more toxic and ruin gameplay even more than they already do, they could just run a DK with undodgeable chain pull and pull you from 20m away... why not throw in the new Farstrider set as well and immediately make that person take another 8-22% (based on your crit resistance) more critical damage from everyone you pulled to.


My point is... Rush of Agony is just a nice little target dummy that draws in all the aggro and if it wasn't there, nothing would change as long as the real issue remains unchanged... except you'd make plenty of normal solo builds utilizing the set for bombing unplayable.

Except RoA IS being run by more people than any other set in Cyrodiil now days. What was your point again?

I don't get that impression at all personally - how would you even know what sets your opponents are running besides the procs on you or obvious visuals on them like rallying cry proc? Logging only works on people in your group.

If we're talking about proc sets, I see a lot more people in PvP running relequen, scavenging demise, plaguebreak, way of fire etc etc - just not in a ball group (where stacking can fit the "playstyle").

Thumbless_Bot

Zos has stated they are taking a look at this set for adjustments. I am paraphrasing, but they have more or less acknowledged that there are issues with this set. They are looking at position adjustments and reducing the frequency that this set can pull you.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/673444/is-it-fair-gameplay-to-use-use-rush-of-agony-to-pull-players-long-distances-and-through-objects#latest

xylena_lazarow

Decimus wrote: »

So you're saying it requires a very specific build to utilize and it has counterplay when you have good awareness & reflexes?

Yeah. Is there anything special about that build? No, just a matter of having access to the knowledge. Does using RoA require good awareness and reflexes? No. Everything takes skill, but no. It's a 2-3 button combo into spam that explicitly removes most of the awareness, positioning, and timing skill went into Proxy Det bombing before it got nerfed. I would imagine they were attempting to make bombing easier for casual players with the design of RoA, but it backfired spectacularly.

Morvan

Healing in PvP is a much worse problem than Rush of Agony will ever be, I'm actually ok with OP offensive tools in this enviroment where everyone can be immortal with cross healing.

But yeah, maybe Rush of Agony deserves a nerf too.

Turtle_Bot

Decimus wrote: »

Can you explain how exactly Rush of Agony is OP (stands for "overpowered")? I see this sentiment expressed a lot on the forums, but no one seems to have anything to say except that they think it's "OP".

<snipped for brevity.

This set is a huge problem in PvP because it breaks the fundamental principles of good game design and balance.
1. Maintaining player agency over their characters as much as possible with reliable inherent counter play options to things that remove this.
2. Ensuring that highly impactful effects (typically effects that remove player agency on a mass scale) have obvious and distinct telegraphs to allow for reliable counter play
3. Ensuring that Impactful effects are not paired with high, unconditional damage values
4. Ensuring that impactful effects have a long enough cooldown to encourage skilled use and counterplay

Rush simply ignores all of these.

spoiler to save space

Take Dark Convergence as a comparison.
Both sets have a massive AoE pull with potential for high damage.

What keeps DC somewhat balanced (or at least, less complained about) is that it respects the fundamental design and balance principles I explained above:
1. It grants anyone it pulls full CC immunity, allowing actual counter play and respecting player agency over their characters
2. It has a very obvious and distinct (both audio and visual) telegraph
3. It has the potential for high damage but that potential is dependent on hitting many targets, not just unconditional damage
4. It has a long cooldown

Yes, ball groups stacking that many buff sets is an issue as well and they are something that needs addressing (as per the many threads on those), but that doesn't detract from the issue that is this set.

As @Desiato pointed out:

But a set doesn't have to be OP to be a problem. It only needs to contribute to bad gameplay, which I think it does.

The thing is "Overpowered" can be as a result of being badly designed. Badly designed would be the more accurate way to describe it, but that doesn't mean that OP is an incorrect description either. A badly designed set that results in it's effect breaking such fundamental aspects of design and balance makes that set overpowered by default, especially when appropriate conditions/requirements are not applied to the set.

The only reason it's not ran more, is because much of ESO's current player base is very casual. They don't want to go farm dungeons for a set that they'll only (maybe) get use out of once or twice a year during the PvP events, and that's if they even know about the set in the first place. Most players would rather just jump in with whatever build they currently have on/enjoy playing, collect their daily rewards, then go back to their preferred part of the game.

alternatelder

Just roll out of it, they said. Why aren't you blocking, they ask. You can literally walk out, they keep telling us. Even if I saw the player beforehand and did one or all of these "tips" to avoid it, I still looked at every death recap I had in Cyrodiil yesterday and wasn't surprised to see this from many different players.

The only people defending it are ball group players who use it. We're well aware of how to defend ourselves in a fair fight, but stop denying this set is overpowered. I hope they delete it. I can't see myself bothering to go back during the event since I now reminded myself again why I left over a year ago.

Spacefish2323

I agree it is overpowered, but some things are always on top of the ever-turning wheel of meta. The more concerning thing is how this set makes your own faction-mates your biggest liability in Cyrodiil. I try not to be toxic to people trying their best, but if a 19k HP shitter can get me killed by getting us pulled and VD'd I am not inclined to see them as charitably.

dark_hunterxmg

They can't nerf Rush of Agony or they have to nerf Dragon Leap for the same reason. Both break the rules for cc immunity. One doesn't apply it, the other ignores it.

Ostonoha

alternatelder wrote: »

Just roll out of it[/i], they said. Why aren't you blocking, they ask. You can literally walk out, they keep telling us.

For the record, you cannot dodge roll it. - That might explain a lot.

YandereGirlfriend

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

They can't nerf Rush of Agony or they have to nerf Dragon Leap for the same reason. Both break the rules for cc immunity. One doesn't apply it, the other ignores it.

I quite like this.

Knock-up abilities are also THE most likely abilities in the game to cause de-sync and they glitch you into things like ceilings (which players 100% do intentionally).

dark_hunterxmg

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I quite like this.

Knock-up abilities are also THE most likely abilities in the game to cause de-sync and they glitch you into things like ceilings (which players 100% do intentionally).

Yep. Knock up/back, slow pulls, etc. Almost always cause desync. DK essentially gets 3x CC abilities. Now fight a bunch of them and you'll never move again. Break free is bugged still and it always favors the cc animation completing before the player gets free.

Decimus

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Can you explain how exactly Rush of Agony is OP (stands for "overpowered")? I see this sentiment expressed a lot on the forums, but no one seems to have anything to say except that they think it's "OP".

<snipped for brevity.

This set is a huge problem in PvP because it breaks the fundamental principles of good game design and balance.
1. Maintaining player agency over their characters as much as possible with reliable inherent counter play options to things that remove this.
2. Ensuring that highly impactful effects (typically effects that remove player agency on a mass scale) have obvious and distinct telegraphs to allow for reliable counter play
3. Ensuring that Impactful effects are not paired with high, unconditional damage values
4. Ensuring that impactful effects have a long enough cooldown to encourage skilled use and counterplay

Rush simply ignores all of these.

I don't think it does.

1. Rush of Agony pull is blockable and the damage is blockable - this is the counter to it and it exists.
2. Personally I think an enemy player gap closing in is a pretty obvious telegraph, but sure - there could be more of a visual cue a pull is about to happen for less experienced PvPers
3. Set's average damage is most of the time less than 10% - there are other proc sets easily capable of reaching 15%+ in same circumstances. This difference is compensated by the combo potential RoA provides.
4. Again, I don't think the cooldown is a huge issue given the set's average damage per fight - increasing it wouldn't make a huge difference though since you're rarely proccing it on cooldown anyway.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

spoiler to save space

Take Dark Convergence as a comparison.
Both sets have a massive AoE pull with potential for high damage.

What keeps DC somewhat balanced (or at least, less complained about) is that it respects the fundamental design and balance principles I explained above:
1. It grants anyone it pulls full CC immunity, allowing actual counter play and respecting player agency over their characters
2. It has a very obvious and distinct (both audio and visual) telegraph
3. It has the potential for high damage but that potential is dependent on hitting many targets, not just unconditional damage
4. It has a long cooldown

Dark Convergence is better than Rush of Agony on many builds since its proc condition is a lot easier and cannot be dodged - the only way to proc RoA on a dodge spamming target is on a DK with undodgeable chain gap closer, but you're getting more value out of Null Arca currently (hits a lot harder and less telegraphed).

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Yes, ball groups stacking that many buff sets is an issue as well and they are something that needs addressing (as per the many threads on those), but that doesn't detract from the issue that is this set.

No, I'm afraid it's the other way around.

There's very little talk about what the actual issue is that is enabling ball groups since there's a convenient smoke screen called Rush of Agony that seems to be the only thing people notice and this can complain about.

Ball groups hiding behind 10+ buff sets making them near immortal and deal double the damage they should are very happy people are focusing on this smoke screen instead of what enables it - the most often below average player gap closing in with the Rush of Agony would just instantly die to good player(s) if the player wasn't also crit immune and armor capped with 40k health due to buff sets.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

As @Desiato pointed out:

But a set doesn't have to be OP to be a problem. It only needs to contribute to bad gameplay, which I think it does.

The thing is "Overpowered" can be as a result of being badly designed. Badly designed would be the more accurate way to describe it, but that doesn't mean that OP is an incorrect description either. A badly designed set that results in it's effect breaking such fundamental aspects of design and balance makes that set overpowered by default, especially when appropriate conditions/requirements are not applied to the set.

The only reason it's not ran more, is because much of ESO's current player base is very casual. They don't want to go farm dungeons for a set that they'll only (maybe) get use out of once or twice a year during the PvP events, and that's if they even know about the set in the first place. Most players would rather just jump in with whatever build they currently have on/enjoy playing, collect their daily rewards, then go back to their preferred part of the game.

There's a lot of talk about fundamentals, but what defines these "fundamentals"?

If you want to keep the game interesting, you can't limit new sets to the parameters of the old ones... Otherwise you'll just wind up with sets that "deal damage", "give stats", "heal" etc and don't do anything interesting. This is actually a huge issue in the game right now over the last few patches.

And if we zoom out a bit... Always maintaining agency over your character actually isn't a "fundamental" at all in MMOs, that's why we have CCs in the first place in ESO.

What's important is to keep things balanced and as long as you only want to run a set on a very few builds where it fits things are objectively balanced (also this is the main reason the set isn't run more: because it only fits very few specific builds. PvErs who actually play these dungeons a lot more than PvP mains are much more likely to possess the set).

Are there annoying interactions? Yes, but as mentioned ZOS is aware of those.

Decimus

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I quite like this.

Knock-up abilities are also THE most likely abilities in the game to cause de-sync and they glitch you into things like ceilings (which players 100% do intentionally).

Yep. Knock up/back, slow pulls, etc. Almost always cause desync. DK essentially gets 3x CC abilities. Now fight a bunch of them and you'll never move again. Break free is bugged still and it always favors the cc animation completing before the player gets free.

DK pull actually has a hard coded 99% snare on the target - it doesn't prevent you from blocking or using abilities, but can feel like you got CC'd.

Ironically this was put in place to actually make it land since it's an AoE around the target's location when you cast it - without this it'd be very prone to just missing and dealing zero damage as players would've moved out of the radius of the AoE before it lands and due to the very same positional desyncs that affect Rush of Agony as well the game cannot update a target's location fast enough.

With good timing, you can still Mist Form/Arcanist Portal/Streak to avoid Leap entirely, since those abilities aren't affected by the 99% snare.

WaywardArgonian

I don't know man, sometimes you can get unlucky and get feared and exploded, especially with some server lag. But there are a lot of players, especially this Mayhem, who get killed 10 times in 10 minutes by the same group running around a keep. At that point it's just a player issue. While blocking and good positioning aren't foolproof, they do drastically reduce the times you'll get caught out by this set.

MasterSpatula

Decimus wrote: »

If it was overpowered, wouldn't this set be run by everyone out there?
[snip]

(weird, if it was "overpowered" you'd think everyone would run the set),

People asking questions like this perplex me. Like, the idea of someone outright refusing to have anything to do with a set specifically because they see it as overpowered is beyond some folks' comprehension. Regardless of how you feel about Rushing Agony, "overpoweredness" does not mean everyone is going to use the overpowered thing. I promise you, though it seems hard to see at times, there are lots of ethical people playing this game.

Decimus

MasterSpatula wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

If it was overpowered, wouldn't this set be run by everyone out there?
[snip]

(weird, if it was "overpowered" you'd think everyone would run the set),

People asking questions like this perplex me. Like, the idea of someone outright refusing to have anything to do with a set specifically because they see it as overpowered is beyond some folks' comprehension. Regardless of how you feel about Rushing Agony, "overpoweredness" does not mean everyone is going to use the overpowered thing. I promise you, though it seems hard to see at times, there are lots of ethical people playing this game.

Yes, and there's also people who min-max every build they create... And for some reason this "overpowered" set is only usable on like 5% of the builds/playstyles.

It's fine if people want to roleplay and "for fun", but the real reason RoA isn't everywhere is because in most cases it can't be on a min-maxed setup.

Just_Attivi

I think the biggest and most obvious reason people claim its OP is because it CC's without causing CC immunity. on an 8 second cooldown. on any class. with a burst damage component added to boot that has a respectable tooltip especially for its short cooldown.

Yes, other sets may be overperforming too, and im in the camp that Id rather bring more sets up rather than down, but this one literally breaks the games own rules. can we please stop pretending it doesnt so we dont feel bad crutching on it. It needs to apply a CC immunity if it pulls, it needs its telegraph to be more pronounced. It needs to pull to location of initiation, not to player. with those 3 things no one would complain about this set, or at least not as loudly (maybe it still needs numbers tweaked, but thats small fries compared to the game breaking lack of CC immunity).

and yes, DK leap causes a 99% snare to ensure it lands, which could be reworked/re coded to be more functional without breaking CC rules, I agree, but at the very least that is an ultimate, a tool thats meant to be powerful after building ult, specific to a class designed around melee damage/short range skills. not a set to spam every 8 seconds in a 12m radius.

Decimus

Just_Attivi wrote: »

I think the biggest and most obvious reason people claim its OP is because it CC's without causing CC immunity. on an 8 second cooldown. on any class. with a burst damage component added to boot that has a respectable tooltip especially for its short cooldown.

Yes, other sets may be overperforming too, and im in the camp that Id rather bring more sets up rather than down, but this one literally breaks the games own rules. can we please stop pretending it doesnt so we dont feel bad crutching on it. It needs to apply a CC immunity if it pulls, it needs its telegraph to be more pronounced. It needs to pull to location of initiation, not to player. with those 3 things no one would complain about this set, or at least not as loudly (maybe it still needs numbers tweaked, but thats small fries compared to the game breaking lack of CC immunity).

and yes, DK leap causes a 99% snare to ensure it lands, which could be reworked/re coded to be more functional without breaking CC rules, I agree, but at the very least that is an ultimate, a tool thats meant to be powerful after building ult, specific to a class designed around melee damage/short range skills. not a set to spam every 8 seconds in a 12m radius.

No one is denying the set "breaks the rules", but that is exactly what makes it fun and different to utilize - something to try and build around rather than yet another boring "deal damage" proc.

The game needs more "rulebreaker" sets, not less to promote more build diversity not just in form of sets utilized, but in terms of playstyle.

If you make this set provide CC immunity it no longer provides anything unique, becomes unusable on any min-max'd build comboing it with a CC (such as Soul Tether).

I'm all for fixing problematic interactions, and just pulling to pull location rather than player as you mentioned should fix most of those.

Rest you can fix by providing counters to buff set stacking, since that's where the actual problems stem from - an average ball group player with no idea of how/when to engage, what buttons to press afterwards etc will just get block tapped, CC'd and insta killed after gap closing to a stack of players without their crit immunity, 40k health and capped armor.