What's up with all the female-oriented outfits with no male-oriented counterparts?

Freelancer_ESO · February 1

My impression is that in games women overwhelmingly choose to play as female characters and men are generally split between selecting male and female characters. A few years back, Riot released data that in LOL 97% of the women played female champions vs around 50% of men playing on male champions.

(Source:https://www.invenglobal.com/articles/17395/riot-97-of-female-league-of-legends-players-only-play-female-champions)

So, if your game has much of a female population it's probably more effective to lean your cosmetic releases have a bit of a female slant.

Additionally, I'd expect you'll see some male characters running the item either because they think it looks really bad on male characters and is thus funny or because they like the way it looks on male characters.

Further, since most of the active population of the game is going to end up getting the item set at roughly the same time it is potentially better for it to appeal strongly to a specific population so that it can actually get some long term users. Many of the people that care about cosmetics items do not want to look like everyone else so if lots of people are using it then it will quickly fall out of favor.

Personally, I don't expect to use the set unless the wrist is separate and dyes well.

Soarora · February 1

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

My impression is that in games women overwhelmingly choose to play as female characters and men are generally split between selecting male and female characters. A few years back, Riot released data that in LOL 97% of the women played female champions vs around 50% of men playing on male champions.

(Source:https://www.invenglobal.com/articles/17395/riot-97-of-female-league-of-legends-players-only-play-female-champions)

So, if your game has much of a female population it's probably more effective to lean your cosmetic releases have a bit of a female slant.

Additionally, I'd expect you'll see some male characters running the item either because they think it looks really bad on male characters and is thus funny or because they like the way it looks on male characters.

Further, since most of the active population of the game is going to end up getting the item set at roughly the same time it is potentially better for it to appeal strongly to a specific population so that it can actually get some long term users. Many of the people that care about cosmetics items do not want to look like everyone else so if lots of people are using it then it will quickly fall out of favor.

Personally, I don't expect to use the set unless the wrist is separate and dyes well.

Women can also wear masculine clothing though. We don’t all wear bras and miniskirts everywhere. Clothes can be revealing and/or flattering without being a miniskirt and a bra, what about more deep plunges and shorts? Unbuttoned shirts and loincloths? It also feels like its been a while since we’ve gotten a good looking full coverage outfit, though I know that one argument for skimpier clothing was that we couldn’t show off skins and tattoos effectively before.

Waits_Behind_Walls · February 1

Almost like they've decided lately that more revealing stuff is feminine, so if you're putting revealing stuff on your male characters, it must just be for a laugh. So we get campy bra-plates that most people just wouldn't seriously consider for their male characters.

Soarora · February 1

Waits_Behind_Walls wrote: »

Almost like they've decided lately that more revealing stuff is feminine, so if you're putting revealing stuff on your male characters, it must just be for a laugh. So we get campy bra-plates that most people just wouldn't seriously consider for their male characters.

Some of it deffo is society, I have a few of my men in crop top armor (like waking flame and deadlands gladiator) because I am a straight woman, but somehow men in crop tops is considered to be a feminine or gay thing. That said, those at least look good on men because they're not slightly modified bras.

Freelancer_ESO · February 1

Soarora wrote: »

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

My impression is that in games women overwhelmingly choose to play as female characters and men are generally split between selecting male and female characters. A few years back, Riot released data that in LOL 97% of the women played female champions vs around 50% of men playing on male champions.

(Source:https://www.invenglobal.com/articles/17395/riot-97-of-female-league-of-legends-players-only-play-female-champions)

So, if your game has much of a female population it's probably more effective to lean your cosmetic releases have a bit of a female slant.

Additionally, I'd expect you'll see some male characters running the item either because they think it looks really bad on male characters and is thus funny or because they like the way it looks on male characters.

Further, since most of the active population of the game is going to end up getting the item set at roughly the same time it is potentially better for it to appeal strongly to a specific population so that it can actually get some long term users. Many of the people that care about cosmetics items do not want to look like everyone else so if lots of people are using it then it will quickly fall out of favor.

Personally, I don't expect to use the set unless the wrist is separate and dyes well.

Women can also wear masculine clothing though. We don’t all wear bras and miniskirts everywhere. Clothes can be revealing and/or flattering without being a miniskirt and a bra, what about more deep plunges and shorts? Unbuttoned shirts and loincloths? It also feels like its been a while since we’ve gotten a good looking full coverage outfit, though I know that one argument for skimpier clothing was that we couldn’t show off skins and tattoos effectively before.

A bit under two years ago they released the Passion Dancer Attire which is a similar to the new outfit and was met with similar complaints.

I would assume that they have some data internally the backs the call otherwise they wouldn't be repeating it.

Personally, I'd prefer different choices but...

JemadarofCaerSalis · February 2

LunaFlora wrote: »

i am glad this style, just like the 10 Year Anniversary alliance hero costumes, have the same design for all characters.
Extra options would be something I'm all for, but ideally that would be an extra chest style/costume instead of forced.

I agree with this. though I usually had the opposite problem, where it would look great on male characters and would be a couple of scraps of cloth on females, so I am really glad that ESO decided to take this route.

I just wish that there would be options so that people could sort of 'piecemeal' the outfits instead of having to take it all or nothing. (IE someone wants their male character to have a skirt, but not bra plate)

NotaDaedraWorshipper · February 2

Over the years I've seen complaints here along from myself and friends over this. So many cosmetics feels focused for female and feminine characters.

So many costumes and styles that are revealing are clearly designed for female characters first, then minimally adjusted for male characters. This is often seen as bras, tops or such that remain on male characters which looks awkward, sometimes they are even larger on male ones. But even on other costumes one can often notice in the way the clothes are cut and shaped that they are designed to fit and flatter a feminine body and will look weird on most of ESO's male bodies.
The rare time I wish a costume look the same on both it didn't, which was the Celestial Robe. The peek-a-boo holes it has on the female version does not exist on the male version, and makes it look worse and less fun.

It doesn't end with costumes/styles either. We repeatedly get various make-up, earrings, jewelry, hairpins, colourful and feminine looking hairstyles and other cosmetics which again, are clearly designed for female characters or people who want a feminine look.
But we have barely any facial hair, the game still lacks a simple full but short beard, also the feather beard for argonians seen on npcs.
Unisex and masculine cosmetics for both female and male characters are more rare.

HatchetHaro · February 2

[snip]

the mentality that "skimpy = for women" is getting old fast. if you don't want your male character to look fabulous, don't wear it; there's plenty of non-skimpy costumes to choose from, and even more non-skimpy outfits from style pages.

[edited for baiting]

spartaxoxo · February 2

HatchetHaro wrote: »

[snip]

the mentality that "skimpy = for women" is getting old fast. if you don't want your male character to look fabulous, don't wear it; there's plenty of non-skimpy costumes to choose from, and even more non-skimpy outfits from style pages.

I mean there's skimpy things designed for male bodies. Bras are mostly designed for female bodies because the shape of the chest is different.

Here's some examples of safe for work and tasteful cuts they could do for dudes. The modern clothes is just to show shapes, obviously they shouldn't add gym apparel to the game. And that's just a few examples. There are plenty of others, including some in this game.

[edited to remove quote]

Slash8915 · February 2

HatchetHaro wrote: »

[snip]

the mentality that "skimpy = for women" is getting old fast. if you don't want your male character to look fabulous, don't wear it; there's plenty of non-skimpy costumes to choose from, and even more non-skimpy outfits from style pages.

[snip] Anyone can look at these outfits and determine that they were intended for female characters with little to no thought towards male characters.

If you want to crossdress your male characters, that's totally fine. But not all of us do.

[edited for baiting & to remove quote]

tomofhyrule · February 2

HatchetHaro wrote: »

[snip]

the mentality that "skimpy = for women" is getting old fast. if you don't want your male character to look fabulous, don't wear it; there's plenty of non-skimpy costumes to choose from, and even more non-skimpy outfits from style pages.

There are a lot of people who want more skimpy things for their dudes. And the infuriating thing is that a lot of these 'skimpy' things could be completely topless, and yet they aren't.

It's not even like some of them aren't already in game. Has anyone seen the Chapel of Anvil dancers?

They're all wearing the Whisperweft Gala Wear. But the two males are wearing a version that does not include the bra, which we do not have access to. If we want our guys to wear it, they have to wear it with a bra.

People have even made mockups of other ones. The Timbercrow Wanderer (diaper aside) was one that a lot of people were annoyed that the male version still had the bra on it. Someone even mocked up a male bra-less version, which looks so good.

It's nice that players have the choice to put their male characters in female-designed outfits - sure, some some people would prefer not to, but more choice is good. The problem is that players then don't have the choice to put their male characters in masculine versions of said outfits, which means you're essentially taking away the choice of not crossdressing.

[edited to remove quote]

HatchetHaro · February 2

Slash8915 wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

[snip]

the mentality that "skimpy = for women" is getting old fast. if you don't want your male character to look fabulous, don't wear it; there's plenty of non-skimpy costumes to choose from, and even more non-skimpy outfits from style pages.

[snip] Anyone can look at these outfits and determine that they were intended for female characters with little to no thought towards male characters.

If you want to crossdress your male characters, that's totally fine. But not all of us do.

then don't wear them. what's the fuss? "no thought towards male characters" is just some lame excuse for wanting less variety and more traditionally manly masculine man costuming that the game already has plenty of.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

[snip]

the mentality that "skimpy = for women" is getting old fast. if you don't want your male character to look fabulous, don't wear it; there's plenty of non-skimpy costumes to choose from, and even more non-skimpy outfits from style pages.

I mean there's skimpy things designed for male bodies. Bras are mostly designed for female bodies because the shape of the chest is different.

Here's some examples of safe for work and tasteful cuts they could do for dudes. The modern clothes is just to show shapes, obviously they shouldn't add gym apparel to the game. And that's just a few examples. There are plenty of others, including some in this game.

...

tomofhyrule wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

[snip]

the mentality that "skimpy = for women" is getting old fast. if you don't want your male character to look fabulous, don't wear it; there's plenty of non-skimpy costumes to choose from, and even more non-skimpy outfits from style pages.

There are a lot of people who want more skimpy things for their dudes. And the infuriating thing is that a lot of these 'skimpy' things could be completely topless, and yet they aren't.

...

It's nice that players have the choice to put their male characters in female-designed outfits - sure, some some people would prefer not to, but more choice is good. The problem is that players then don't have the choice to put their male characters in masculine versions of said outfits, which means you're essentially taking away the choice of not crossdressing.

oh don't worry, i know everything about making manly revealing outfits in ESO, as that's my preference as well.

and so, in that case, there are so many options to choose from! hircine bloodhunter, crimson oath, scorianite gladiator, minotaur, black drake clanwrap, ragebound harness, minotaur, argonian, elder argonian, fanged worm, fang lair, waking flame, pirate swab, arena gladiator, chitinous, deadlands gladiator, sai sahan, dark shaman, all just from the top of my head, and i'm probably missing some! yes, of course i want more of those; i'm incredibly gay for them! but lets not deny that we already have a lot of options.

and people are complaining about one boob-plate on male characters? if you want to show your pecs that badly, put on a dead-water jerkin.

[edited to remove quote]

spartaxoxo · February 2

HatchetHaro wrote: »

and people are complaining about one boob-plate on male characters? if you want to show your pecs that badly, put on a dead-water jerkin.

No. It's not just the one. I can't remember the last time they released a masculine, skimpy cut costume. I don't know when exactly things seemed to change but I want to say for a couple of years now, many costumes stopped having different cuts for the different body types. So, if you got a costume it looked more or less the same regardless of which type of character you put on, with the obvious exception of sizing.

Since then the majority of skimpy costumes have been feminine.

Again, I haven't followed the crown store that closely so I am going by memory. So, people are just asking for some new releases because they're tired of the same handful of stuff.

Waits_Behind_Walls · February 2

HatchetHaro wrote: »

then don't wear them. what's the fuss? "no thought towards male characters" is just some lame excuse for wanting less variety and more traditionally manly masculine man costuming that the game already has plenty of.

Spartaxoxo said part of what I wanted to say, but to reply to this part, the fuss is that this is avoidable by just taking the bra off the male version of the costume. To not do so is a choice, a choice we're dissatisfied with and have noticed occuring more, and we're letting it be known. If you prefer to have styles that put your male characters in a bra, sure, say so. But for those of us who want to put our men in more feminine or more revealing clothing, we're telling them, this isn't something we're going to use. It's just an avoidable miss.

NotaDaedraWorshipper · February 2

HatchetHaro wrote: »

who are you to determine that these are exclusively "female oriented"? maybe you just have no sense of style.

the mentality that "skimpy = for women" is getting old fast. if you don't want your male character to look fabulous, don't wear it; there's plenty of non-skimpy costumes to choose from, and even more non-skimpy outfits from style pages.

I don't think you're getting the point of what people are saying or having an issue with when it comes to the more revealing clothes.

The issue is not skimpy. Many want skimpy looks for their male characters, ones that are actually designed for them and not just the female version with the bra still there slapped onto them.

I for one have wanted a costume like the Egg-Sister Bias-Cut Casual Wear and Lizardly Four Fabric Skirt but without the bra top for one of my male argonians. Maybe a tad longer, but that same sarong look, maybe some necklace , armband or other decoration on the tail at most. The reed skirts are awful and looks like cones.

Timbercrow Wanderer, Mercymother's Attire, Sisei Flowering Dress ⁽ʷʰᶦᶜʰ ᵃˡˢᵒ ᵍᵒᵗ ᵗʰᵉ ᵇᵒⁿᵘˢ ᵇᵃᵈ ᵗʰᶦⁿᵍ ᵒᶠ ᵇᵉᶦⁿᵍ ᵃ ˢᵘᵖᵖᵒˢᵉᵈ ᵃʳᵍᵒⁿᶦᵃⁿ ᵃᵗᵗᶦʳᵉ ᵇᵘᵗ ᶦᵗ ᵈᵒᵉˢⁿ'ᵗ ᵗᵃᵏᵉ ᵗʰᵉᶦʳ ᵗᵃᶦˡˢ ᶦⁿᵗᵒ ᶜᵒⁿˢᶦᵈᵉʳᵃᵗᶦᵒⁿ⁾, and this new coming costume, are four examples I can think of newer made costumes that are revealing and two-piece which would look better if the bra/top was either gone or had a much different look for male characters.
They have done it with other costumes, such as Nereid's Seafoam Raiment and Ragebound Harness. Two revealing costumes, two-piece, and no weird bras for the male characters. So it's clearly something they can and know to do.

HatchetHaro · February 2

spartaxoxo wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

and people are complaining about one boob-plate on male characters? if you want to show your pecs that badly, put on a dead-water jerkin.

No. It's not just the one. I can't remember the last time they released a masculine, skimpy cut costume. I don't know when exactly things seemed to change but I want to say for a couple of years now, many costumes stopped having different cuts for the different body types. So, if you got a costume it looked more or less the same regardless of which type of character you put on, with the obvious exception of sizing.

Since then the majority of skimpy costumes have been feminine.

Again, I haven't followed the crown store that closely so I am going by memory. So, people are just asking for some new releases because they're tired of the same handful of stuff.

hircine bloodhunter is the most recent of the ones i've listed, from about 4 months ago. the ragebound harness came out a little under 2 years ago.

i absolutely do want more topless skimpy outfits; that i agree on. it's just that it gets kinda difficult to work on more unique shirtless styles that isn't just a "hide chest armour" toggle in the collections tab or outfit station.

DenverRalphy · February 2

Being skimpy/sexy isn't even really the issue. I often don't even bother with the Sexy/Skimpy outfits on my female toons as that's usually not my thing.

It's that ZOS seems to not put any effort into designing quality outfits/hairstyles/adornments/comsetics/etc.. for male toons at all anymore. They don't need to be sexy, but at least put some real effort into making them look half as good as they do for female items. Heck just put some effort into making any items with a focus on male toons. When I work on one of my female toons' appearance, I have more options than I can count. When I attempt the same with my male toons, it's a much shorter list of options.

[edit] typo

tomofhyrule · February 2

Now if we're gonna talk about the new one coming, they do call it "Armor set" and "Armor style," so I think it's going to be a set of gear pieces instead of a costume. That is better, since we could then use it without the chest piece.

...but that's still not a perfect solution:

Not using the chest piece means the loincloth, necklace, and painted belt won't work, so therefore the belt buckle will be left to float on nothing
We also don't have a 'hide chest' style, so even if we wanted to forgo the chest piece, we'd need to substitute a different chest piece. Which will also have its own things (like the Hircine Bloodhunter, as you point out, which will add a toothed necklace, crossed belt, a Hircine-themed loincloth, and horned tassets which don't fit with the elegant filigree from the rest of the set.

If we could get the "Hide slot" available for chests, waist, feet, and hands (and I wouldn't even mind if they just went the rest of the way and gave a 'hide pants' too), that would definitely help some people to use their more open-chested looks. Because while there are options for men to go topless, there really aren't that many (and they all tend to be very 'barbarian' themed)

NotaDaedraWorshipper · February 2

HatchetHaro wrote: »

it's just that it gets kinda difficult to work on more unique shirtless styles that isn't just a "hide chest armour" toggle in the collections tab or outfit station.

That feature we have wanted for years that doesn't exist?

NotaDaedraWorshipper · February 2

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Being skimpy/sexy isn't even really the issue. I often don't even bother with the Sexy/Skimpy outfits on my female toons as that's usually not my thing.

It's that ZOS seems to not put any efffor into designing quality outfits/hairstyles/adornments/comsetics/etc.. for male toons at all anymore. They don't need to be sexy, but at least put some real effort into making them look half as good as they do for female items. Heck just put some effort into making any items with a focus on male toons. When I work on one of my female toons' appearance, I have more options than I can count. When I attempt the same with my male toons, it's a much shorter list of options.

This. Skimpy or not, the issue is that male characters aren't getting the same amount of content or effort.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Now if we're gonna talk about the new one coming, they do call it "Armor set" and "Armor style," so I think it's going to be a set of gear pieces instead of a costume. That is better, since we could then use it without the chest piece.

...but that's still not a perfect solution:
[*] Not using the chest piece means the loincloth, necklace, and painted belt won't work, so therefore the belt buckle will be left to float on nothing
[*] We also don't have a 'hide chest' style, so even if we wanted to forgo the chest piece, we'd need to substitute a different chest piece. Which will also have its own things (like the Hircine Bloodhunter, as you point out, which will add a toothed necklace, crossed belt, a Hircine-themed loincloth, and horned tassets which don't fit with the elegant filigree from the rest of the set.

If we could get the "Hide slot" available for chests, waist, feet, and hands (and I wouldn't even mind if they just went the rest of the way and gave a 'hide pants' too), that would definitely help some people to use their more open-chested looks. Because while there are options for men to go topless, there really aren't that many (and they all tend to be very 'barbarian' themed)

It being a style for outfits doesn't really change anything, because as mentioned, we don't have a hide chest option, and several other more chest showing styles do look different on male characters and don't get a weird bralette. So it feels lazy.
Many of them got very niche looks though with crotch flaps or other oddities instead that greatly minimalise its use in outfits. I wouldn't say they are barbaric looking though, I can't think of a single one and would like one. Sai Sahan's and Scorianite Gladiator are two of the most bare-chested looks and they got very niche but quite fancy looks.

AllenaNightWood · February 3

i dont think all costumes are outfits need to cater to both male and female because it unnecessary nord 10 year looks horrible on females, high elf hero should cater to females more and Breton one will probably go either way

NotaDaedraWorshipper · February 3

AllenaNightWood wrote: »

i dont think all costumes are outfits need to cater to both male and female because it unnecessary nord 10 year looks horrible on females, high elf hero should cater to females more and Breton one will probably go either way

No, but there's way more of one type (aka feminine and designed for female character bodies)) than the others.

AScarlato · February 4

I've been very disappointed as someone who mostly plays male characters. There are few outfits a female character can't pull off, but so many bras left on outfits seems lazy. At least let us toggle it off for the easiest, least-work version of allowing more traditional male characters to wear things.

It's one thing for an optional store item, but main event rewards being so obviously tailored to one gender without any other option feels bad.

Even for the Dibella outfit, instead of leaving it looking like a bra-strap they should have had an option maybe similar to Paragon armor in GW1 to keep the Dibella vibe.

barney2525 · February 5

This is an equal opportunity game.

Your character can wear that costume designed for women.

ajkb78 · February 5

DenverRalphy wrote: »

I keep holding on to hope. Really wanting to see some kind of love tossed towards male toons.

But then I see this..

To be fair there are loads of male-centric styles and costumes in the game: most of the base game and a lot of the DLC armour styles are male-centric, apparently with a drop-in mod to the breastplate to accommodate female toons as the only change. The Wrothgar costumes, the Vampire Lord costumes, various generic but rather male-focused crown store costumes, things like the Arena Gladiator costume, Sai Sahan style, Nordic bathing towel etc. that needed a lot of modesty adjustments for female toons that completely changes their look & feel compared with the male baseline, a *lot* of the disguise costumes that will be coming as unlockable quest rewards in the next patch... These generally feel primarily male-centric, with the breastplate mod for female toons and the general sizing adjustments to account for toon dimensions.

The Dibellan costume for next month doesn't suit my taste personally (for either my male or female toons) and I won't be going out of my way to get it (I didn't bother with the passion dancer personality either), but other recent collectibles have been completely "my thing".

Nobody can please all the folks all the time but there's no shortage of outfit options for male toons, right the way from formalwear to full armour.

randconfig · February 5

Agreed... It's really annoying...

randconfig · February 5

JiubLeRepenti wrote: »

UwU

Lmao... UwU

BXR_Lonestar · February 5

My bastion appreciates female oriented armor, thank you!

shadyjane62 · February 5

DenverRalphy wrote: »

I keep holding on to hope. Really wanting to see some kind of love tossed towards male toons.

But then I see this..

Hairy legs! eeewwwww!

Luthivar · February 5

AScarlato wrote: »

I've been very disappointed as someone who mostly plays male characters. There are few outfits a female character can't pull off, but so many bras left on outfits seems lazy. At least let us toggle it off for the easiest, least-work version of allowing more traditional male characters to wear things.

It's one thing for an optional store item, but main event rewards being so obviously tailored to one gender without any other option feels bad.

Even for the Dibella outfit, instead of leaving it looking like a bra-strap they should have had an option maybe similar to Paragon armor in GW1 to keep the Dibella vibe.

Finally a company that pays attention to the underrated problem of sore nips on male heroes! *clapclap*