U35 what is wrong?

Thumbless_Bot

Oceanchanter wrote: »

This is a genuine, open question to everyone in this thread, and there's no intended malice behind it.
I ask this question to understand what the goal is of bringing the U35 back over and over again.

What do you expect from ZOS to do about it?
Or rather, what is the intention behind talking about it over and over again in almost every thread?

Someone asked.

Destai

Oceanchanter wrote: »

What do you expect from ZOS to do about it?
Or rather, what is the intention behind talking about it over and over again in almost every thread?

It keeps getting brought up because a lot of the factors that defined U35, keep happening:

1. Lack of insight why changes need to be made
2. No developer presence on the PTS forums
3. Changes being made despite PTS blowback

What do I expect them to do about it? Having some candid recognition of what U35 means to the community would be a good place to start. Getting a combat Q&A where we can clear the air and get insight on the direction of combat.

There was some movement in a positive direction - like slowing the pace of combat changes. The uptick in communication and promise of surveys and Q&A's also bodes well. Hopefully they remain consistent.

the90thmeridian

When I went to bed the night before U35 dropped I had a Templar that felt fast, agile, powerful, I logged in the day of U35 and my Templar felt sluggish and weak, like I was playing covered in molasses. That's the day the Templar went on the shelf. I never understood why the change was made, honestly it felt like I had been trolled.

AngryPenguin

Stamicka wrote: »

wilykcat wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

I see a lot of complaints about this patch. What's wrong with it?

I dont understand why people are still complaining about an old update either...

Updates don’t happen in a vacuum, the game builds on itself. Lots of changes from update 35 are still impacting the game.

[snip]

Personally speaking, I stopped being a PvP main in 2018 because it made no sense for me to put effort into something that the developers didn’t support or put effort in themselves. I became a PvE main instead. Update 35 gave me the same feeling I had about PvP in 2018. It was clear to me that I was wasting my time with PvE too, because the developers will just nerf the way I like to play. Improving your skill at a game feels meaningless when the developers try to nerf you and bring you back down if you do.

Ultimately, I quit PvE after update 35. Now with both PvP and PvE being ruined, I play ESO less than ever.

[edited for trolling]

AngryPenguin

Vonnegut2506 wrote: »

It won't matter what you present as evidence. People who want to keep their heads in the sand will happily keep it there.

It can get pretty frustrating sometimes. No doubt about it.

AngryPenguin

SilverBride wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

But it's not proof.

SilverBride wrote: »

ZoS are the only ones that have accurate data.

The burden of proof is actually on you...

Do you have any piece of data where there’s an upward or stable trend? Nothing supports that.

The burden of proof for what? I never made any claims that there was any kind of trend, one way or another.

All I did was disagree that there is a mountain of data to support that people are unsubbing and that the population is declining.

And that is all I'm going to say about it.

Except you are making claims. Refuting a claim is making a claim that someone is wrong in their assessment. So sure enough, the burden of proof is on you to prove the population is not declining when everyone I know and the vast, vast majority posting on this forum all post they have lost guilds and friends list players in very high numbers since U35. All evidence we have access to supports the experience that the player population is declining rapidly we've been posting about.

Oceanchanter

SilverBride wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

U35 lead to a lot of cancelled ESO+, and there hasn’t been a new update that’s exceeded expectations to make people subscribe again.

We don't have the data to support this. Players saying they are going to unsubscribe doesn't mean they actually did. Or if they did, did they just resubscribe again when things cooled down? Only ZoS knows how many unsubscribed.

I totally agree with that statement.

I'm prepared to be hit by Steam graph at this point proving "eso is dying and look its due to U35".
Every game has fluctuations, and ESO is still crowded (unless you queue for niche veteran dungeon as a DPS at 4am then obviously youll wait half an hour or more).

ESO still has a good numbers for a 10 year old MMORPG.
Still brings money to ZOS.
So it must mean people made peace with U35, didn't notice U35, or simply didn't care and kept playing.

And trust me, ESO is nothing like my beloved MMORPG I played when I was a teen.
Servers closed up over 3 years ago, after 11 years.
The game was almost totally barren for at least 2 years before it happened.
They even merged the servers to keep the number of players higher.
The most popular place to hang out and put up a vendor (so you can sell your loot to other players) was a ghost town.
Weekly activities giving tons of exp? You'd be lucky to find a squad for them queueing up.

When they announced the closure of servers I was the only player walking around, making screenshots and recordings cause I loved this game.

Reason?
The MMO wasn't bringing enough money to sustain itself.
At some point it was leeching off it's sister MMO (from the same studio), and the studio was acquired by another company that decided to cut spending.
There wasn't any U35-esque update. It just died.

Elowen_Starveil

SilverBride wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

But it's not proof.

SilverBride wrote: »

ZoS are the only ones that have accurate data.

The burden of proof is actually on you...

Do you have any piece of data where there’s an upward or stable trend? Nothing supports that.

The burden of proof for what? I never made any claims that there was any kind of trend, one way or another.

All I did was disagree that there is a mountain of data to support that people are unsubbing and that the population is declining.

And that is all I'm going to say about it.

The Steam chart shows that there were 40% fewer people playing the recent New Life event versus 2023. People like to argue that the Steam chart isn't representative of the whole community for a lot of reasons. All of those reasons are wrong, and I won't spend time arguing statistics from first principles about it again. If someone thinks that the fact that they run the game without the launcher invalidates the statistical inference from data on 16,000 daily players, I can't help them. Those numbers are unequivocally representative of the game as a whole, and that is a literal mountain of data.

spartaxoxo

Oceanchanter wrote: »

Reason?
The MMO wasn't bringing enough money to sustain itself.
At some point it was leeching off it's sister MMO (from the same studio), and the studio was acquired by another company that decided to cut spending.
There wasn't any U35-esque update. It just died.

I have also played a game that ended up shutdown as we waved goodbye to the servers. You are right that this game is not dead and is not in maintenance mode. Games in that state don't get meaningful updates.

But just because the game isn't dead yet doesn't mean it isn't declining in population. Just as it's objectively not dead yet, there's also no good reason to believe that the game's population isn't declining.

Games don't die overnight. They die from things like ignoring players leaving in numbers. They die from bad updates or lack of content. They die from poor performance. Etc etc.

The truth is that long before a game dies, it has often been in bad shape for a long time.

I am not saying ESO is there yet. I think it can still correct course and it's overall still fun. But reducing content often, poor performance, and the lack of basic qol features are clearly not helping to retain players. And it seems like they aren't being replaced as often anymore when they leave, if things like the Steam Charts are anything to go by

Vonnegut2506

I was there for the end of Warhammer Online where people were still claiming the game was doing fine even after they announced they were pulling the plug.

I was there in SWG after the NGE and watched people claiming the NGE actually made the game better and people were just overreacting right up until they pulled the plug.

I am still in SWtOR watching people claiming the game isn't in maintenance mode even though it has been sold to a company that literally only does MMO maintenance mode games.

The amount of willful ignorance that MMO players can display doesn't even surprise me anymore.

Lags

Oceanchanter wrote: »

This is a genuine, open question to everyone in this thread, and there's no intended malice behind it.
I ask this question to understand what the goal is of bringing the U35 back over and over again.

What do you expect from ZOS to do about it?
Or rather, what is the intention behind talking about it over and over again in almost every thread?

Im so happy to see someone asked this question. I expect them to revert some of the terrible changes they have made and take things in a new direction. Some changes, could be easily changed back. and to stop dumbing things down. Thats it. but tbh the question you should have asked is why would anyone think this company would actually listen to the players, especially after all this time.

Elowen_Starveil

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Oceanchanter wrote: »

Reason?
The MMO wasn't bringing enough money to sustain itself.
At some point it was leeching off it's sister MMO (from the same studio), and the studio was acquired by another company that decided to cut spending.
There wasn't any U35-esque update. It just died.

I have also played a game that ended up shutdown as we waved goodbye to the servers. You are right that this game is not dead and is not in maintenance mode. Games in that state don't get meaningful updates.

But just because the game isn't dead yet doesn't mean it isn't declining in population. Just as it's objectively not dead yet, there's also no good reason to believe that the game's population isn't declining.

Games don't die overnight. They die from things like ignoring players leaving in numbers. They die from bad updates or lack of content. They die from poor performance. Etc etc.

The truth is that long before a game dies, it has often been in bad shape for a long time.

I am not saying ESO is there yet. I think it can still correct course and it's overall still fun. But reducing content often, poor performance, and the lack of basic qol features are clearly not helping to retain players. And it seems like they aren't being replaced as often anymore when they leave, if things like the Steam Charts are anything to go by

Everyone understands that if you're running a company, and you can't make a profit any more, you close. But when you are owned by a company like Microsoft, you not only have to make enough money to turn a tidy profit, you have to make more profit than some other investment those resources could make.

Even if ZOS is making, say, $50M/yr on revenues of $500M, if Microsoft thinks that $450M of running operating costs could generate $100M/yr making, say, templates for Office documents, they'll fold the game and pivot. This is US capitalism 102. It's not enough for ZOS to be profitable. Now that they're owned by a much bigger fish, they have to be profitable versus other uses of their assets.

I've been through a merger of Fortune 250's. It takes years for the dust to settle. These recent statements about the direction of the game in the yearly letter are the outward appearance of a small pivot to see if they can be more profitable with "season pass" type content. If they make the numbers Microsoft is handing them through Zeni, great! If not...

And, hey, Fallout 76 seems to be doing well, and they have similar user numbers in the Steam charts. The only problem is that the game has at LEAST as bad of a disconnect/crashing problem as ESO currently has. It's almost like the two games share some common issue in the networking code or hosting infrastructure...

SilverBride

Quoted post has been removed

It's not toxic to disagree that something that happened 2 years ago is causing the population to decline today.

Stamicka

This thread has been pretty constructive and it would be a shame to continue to entertain toxic casual comments.

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

colossalvoids

Stamicka wrote: »

This thread has been pretty constructive and it would be a shame to continue to entertain toxic casual comments.

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

Fully engage with an argument with them is a wasted time as most arguments are made in a bad faith as they already had the context and all explanations possible throughout the years that they decided themselves to ignore. Pointing out their mistakes though is quite important, as those can easily derail any discussion into something that would let the thread be closed, that's probably what their aim is anyway.

edward_frigidhands

Update 35 crippled some of the performance gained from updating server hardware.

In my opinion that alone should have been a reason to revert it and reassess it for a longer and more in depth testing phase.

xylena_lazarow

code65536 wrote: »

They wanted to increase DoT timers to make rotations a little less timer-watchy, to have less of the rotation be about reapplying DoTs, and to lessen the impact of bad DoT management, and they did.

U35 made me quit the game for over a year. This change really crippled PvP pressure builds, which at the time were pretty mid other than the busted ranged StamSorcs (and that problem was solved just by nerfing sets), until the righteous status effect buffs and general power creep brought us back to life.

ThoraxtheDark

This is the biggest red herring in this community . Everyone blamed 35 for all their eso woes. It made the game better man. It just did.

Nobody ever talks about the other glaring issues eso has . You cannot just put a pin in this and call it a day. I get the game is somewhat in a "lull" right now but people getting overly emotional here and only seeing the game from their gameplay perspective.

Zos has a lot more issues than update 35. Please try to conceptualize more of a compelling argument than "update 35 bad ". There are plenty of good points listed above why it's just not true lol. If you want you are welcome to take a break from eso if too emotional

BagOfBadgers

ThoraxtheDark wrote: »

This is the biggest red herring in this community . Everyone blamed 35 for all their eso woes. It made the game better man. It just did.

Nobody ever talks about the other glaring issues eso has . You cannot just put a pin in this and call it a day. I get the game is somewhat in a "lull" right now but people getting overly emotional here and only seeing the game from their gameplay perspective.

Zos has a lot more issues than update 35. Please try to conceptualize more of a compelling argument than "update 35 bad ". There are plenty of good points listed above why it's just not true lol. If you want you are welcome to take a break from eso if too emotional

OK I'll take the challenge. How did it make the game better for me, as I had to junk play styles and many toons of different class and type, lost many friends and guilds and be treated as an annoyance by ZOS.

U35 is the most obvious of ZOS not giving a hoot about players, but there are many more, AWA, constant changing the meta, gutting classes identities, lag/disconnects, flashy mounts, arbitrary decisions about suspension/bans, PVE changes affecting PVP negatively and PVP affecting PVE, monetization, I could go on! Some of the QOL have been epic, sticker book being one that springs to the front of my mind.

Don't get me wrong, ESO has a special place in my heart, I met my partner through it and on its day it offers some of the best gaming moments I have had the pleasure of participating in online, BUT those days seem long gone now. Many of us that talk about U35 negatively , as that was the catalyst for downward trajectory we see now and desperately want ZOS to acknowledge what is did, bring back parity to the classes, you know actual “Play as you want”, at least acknowledge why players disliked it and understand and learn. An apologise (they can't/won't say sorry) would be the cherry on top, so to speak, but I will not hold my breath.

We want the game to be the best it can be, but ZOS seem experts at snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. U35 is why many don't believe or trust much of what ZOS says any more. I wish I had faith that things will change for the better but the evidence is it won't, alas.

Oh as an aside, open suggestion to all, maybe don't belittle peoples emotions/feelings.

Soarora

ThoraxtheDark wrote: »

This is the biggest red herring in this community . Everyone blamed 35 for all their eso woes. It made the game better man. It just did.

Nobody ever talks about the other glaring issues eso has .

It did not make the game better for me, a somewhat struggling DPS player at the time who watched as my beloved frost warden got nerfed. I had to switch from off meta to meta which didn’t work very well because I’m a terrible DK and kept dying.

But no, we do not blame u35 for everything. AWA (which was before u35) murdered the dungeon community in cold blood. People keep track of how many trial tris they have but not so much with dungeons, likely because its easier to accidentally get a tri and people don’t log every dungeon run they do... and no one really cares about dungeon tris as much. The passion to do tris multiple times over disintegrated. I keep track kind of but I too just do not feel the passion anymore.

We know the servers are terrible. Multiple people getting kicked at once, lag spikes half a trial group feels. We know the monetary practices are scummy, with selling some (not all) workbenches as limited time items in the crown store and the infamous 20 dollar matriarch. We know theres hundreds of unusable sets because the damage is just flat out terrible from them. We know warden dps (and stamdens specifically) are rolling in the grave. We know nothing can compete against an arcanist. We know the economy crashed… at least 3 times… leading to even motif prices that were at 80k+ dropping to 10k or less. I don’t think I need to go on.

Solariken

ThoraxtheDark wrote: »

This is the biggest red herring in this community . Everyone blamed 35 for all their eso woes. It made the game better man. It just did.

Nobody ever talks about the other glaring issues eso has . You cannot just put a pin in this and call it a day. I get the game is somewhat in a "lull" right now but people getting overly emotional here and only seeing the game from their gameplay perspective.

Zos has a lot more issues than update 35. Please try to conceptualize more of a compelling argument than "update 35 bad ". There are plenty of good points listed above why it's just not true lol. If you want you are welcome to take a break from eso if too emotional

The vast majority of ESO vets will disagree wholeheartedly.

@ThoraxtheDark my man, among so many other things, they destroyed the iconic Templar playstyle. Jabs got completely gutted functionally AND they swapped a beautiful animation for an objectively worse one.

I uninstalled for almost a year, but came back and luckily fell back in love with Nightblade. But I'm still pretty upset about Templar.

This thread has a pretty exhaustive list of the other bad changes. That patch was a nightmare.

sarahthes

ThoraxtheDark wrote: »

This is the biggest red herring in this community . Everyone blamed 35 for all their eso woes. It made the game better man. It just did.

Nobody ever talks about the other glaring issues eso has . You cannot just put a pin in this and call it a day. I get the game is somewhat in a "lull" right now but people getting overly emotional here and only seeing the game from their gameplay perspective.

Zos has a lot more issues than update 35. Please try to conceptualize more of a compelling argument than "update 35 bad ". There are plenty of good points listed above why it's just not true lol. If you want you are welcome to take a break from eso if too emotional

It honestly doesn't matter if U35 fixed balance in the long run. What it destroyed was communities and trust, and those haven't fully recovered, especially trust.

The endgame community is doing a bit better than it was post update 35, but as I said earlier in this thread it is in a bit of a fragile place right now. I do not think it would survive another massive meta upheaval on the scale of U35.

Lags

SilverBride wrote: »

Quoted post has been removed

It's not toxic to disagree that something that happened 2 years ago is causing the population to decline today.

no its not, but thats not what i meant by that. Its a generalization of the type of players on here who constantly refuse to accept that anything is wrong and run defense for zos. And it actually is a little toxic to ask people for concrete statistics that you know do not exist, because you said it yourself. You know zos is the only ones who have the numbers, and you know all we can go on is stuff like steam charts, youtube, the forums, and our experience.

And i also think its crazy to say that update 35 didnt have a massive negative impact on the game and players. Of course the impact is not as big now as it was at the time. But at the time of the update it especially did, and even now we the game is feeling the ripples of it. So do you believe thats not true at all?

The reason we are still feeling the impact of it today is because its a ripple effect. And the fact that update 35 was the straw that broke the camels back with their terrible game direction, that they still havent changed. so of course things would still decline.

Just because it doesnt impact your part of the game doesnt mean it doesnt exist. IThere are less players over all. There are less content creators spreading the word about the game, bringing in more players. Less raid leaders, less experienced players helping newer players reach their goals. Less guild leaders, less add on creators, less people making new content like websites, less in game events. And the list goes on. It has hurt the community in a way that is hard to rectify. When people feel so wronged, so ignored, its hard for them to forgive and to come back. Unless something drastic changes.

And if you're happy with your group of friends, or your part of the community, and if this doesnt impact you, then fantastic. Im happy for you. but just because you dont see something doesnt mean its not happening.


Also, do you agree there is a population decline? And if so what do you think the reason for it is?

SilverBride

Lags wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Quoted post has been removed

It's not toxic to disagree that something that happened 2 years ago is causing the population to decline today.

no its not, but thats not what i meant by that. Its a generalization of the type of players on here who constantly refuse to accept that anything is wrong and run defense for zos. And it actually is a little toxic to ask people for concrete statistics that you know do not exist, because you said it yourself. You know zos is the only ones who have the numbers, and you know all we can go on is stuff like steam charts, youtube, the forums, and our experience.

Players that are having a positive experience and were not negatively affected by changes are not being toxic by giving their own personal feedback.

It is also not toxic to ask for concrete numbers to back up a statement that there is "mountains" of evidence for something we haven't noticed at all.

Not having a bad experience does not make us or our feedback toxic.

Lags

ThoraxtheDark wrote: »

This is the biggest red herring in this community . Everyone blamed 35 for all their eso woes. It made the game better man. It just did.

Nobody ever talks about the other glaring issues eso has . You cannot just put a pin in this and call it a day. I get the game is somewhat in a "lull" right now but people getting overly emotional here and only seeing the game from their gameplay perspective.

Zos has a lot more issues than update 35. Please try to conceptualize more of a compelling argument than "update 35 bad ". There are plenty of good points listed above why it's just not true lol. If you want you are welcome to take a break from eso if too emotional

who is just saying update 35 bad? plenty of people have gone pretty in depth about it. Even I explained it before but ill slightly do it again. To put it as simply as possible it was the straw that broke the camels back. People could see the unfortunate direction zos decided to go for a little bit before u35. With dumbing things down and making bad combat choices and balance choices. Adding things we didnt want, and ignoring things we did. Having a terrible reward system that barely improves. Putting more of a focus on solo/causal players, gutting what an mmo is supposed to be.

How long before u35? Im not sure. Maybe a year, id have to go back and look, but for some time. So when you have a game direction that people are weary about, along with bad changes stacking up over time, and then drop an update with a bunch of these bad changes, in line with this bad game direction, of course some people are going to dislike it and leave. And when the game direction continues liek that for the following few years, of course its going to have a negative ripple effect.

So i 100% agree with you that u35 was no where near the be all end all of problems when it comes to eso, i just think it was where everything culminated. Starting with a really bad choice in game design to focus on dumbing things down, making things too much more causal/solo friendly, and really just going away from what makes an mmo special. And that doesnt even mention the plethora of pvp issues that plague that part of the game, which is my main part of the game. Many of us feel like eso has so much potential but zos doesnt see the things theyve been doing wrong.

Personofsecrets

So that's why my DK dots feel useless.

Stamicka

Lags wrote: »

Also, do you agree there is a population decline? And if so what do you think the reason for it is?

Let those who have no interest in how this update affected the game go back to talking about how there's no toilet furnishing items and how overland is too hard. They're not going to change their mind until a negative change impacts them.

ThoraxtheDark wrote: »

Nobody ever talks about the other glaring issues eso has .

You can probably find a thread that discusses just about any problem that you have with the game.

ThoraxtheDark wrote: »

Zos has a lot more issues than update 35. Please try to conceptualize more of a compelling argument than "update 35 bad ". There are plenty of good points listed above why it's just not true lol. If you want you are welcome to take a break from eso if too emotional

I think there's a lot of compelling arguments here that discuss how exactly update 35 negatively impacted people and what could be done better. I think that wanting to make the game more accessible is a good goal that update 35 didn't accomplish. There's huge knowledge gaps and a lack of important information within the game that contribute to the accessibility issue the most.

I personally think most people can learn the game enough to get into a vet trial with time. The game needs to give them the tools to improve and learn rather than trying to bring others down or nerfing the content itself.

Soarora

Stamicka wrote: »

Lags wrote: »

Also, do you agree there is a population decline? And if so what do you think the reason for it is?

Let those who have no interest in how this update affected the game go back to talking about how there's no toilet furnishing items and how overland is too hard. They're not going to change their mind until a negative change impacts them.

ThoraxtheDark wrote: »

Nobody ever talks about the other glaring issues eso has .

You can probably find a thread that discusses just about any problem that you have with the game.

ThoraxtheDark wrote: »

Zos has a lot more issues than update 35. Please try to conceptualize more of a compelling argument than "update 35 bad ". There are plenty of good points listed above why it's just not true lol. If you want you are welcome to take a break from eso if too emotional

I think there's a lot of compelling arguments here that discuss how exactly update 35 negatively impacted people and what could be done better. I think that wanting to make the game more accessible is a good goal that update 35 didn't accomplish. There's huge knowledge gaps and a lack of important information within the game that contribute to the accessibility issue the most.

I personally think most people can learn the game enough to get into a vet trial with time. The game needs to give them the tools to improve and learn rather than trying to bring others down or nerfing the content itself.

So very much this. We need advanced combat tutorials that teach people how to play each role (LoS, weaving, hitting the most things as possible with AoE, knowing when you can drop block, etc.), a remade suggested build feature that is updated to the current meta, more details on set & skill descriptions saying how many targets get hit and what roles and classes might use the set to be most effective. Right now, its up to content creators (so then people end up with Xynode and Alcast builds because they show up when you look up builds) and people in guilds (which off-meta people may find aggressive because some people will push meta).

Lags

SilverBride wrote: »

Lags wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Lags wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

But it's not proof.

you can put your head in the sand if you want to, but it helps no one. This toxic positivity that some eso players do helps nothing. In the same way that spastically making hate threads or trashing the game helps no one.

It's not toxic to disagree that something that happened 2 years ago is causing the population to decline today.

no its not, but thats not what i meant by that. Its a generalization of the type of players on here who constantly refuse to accept that anything is wrong and run defense for zos. And it actually is a little toxic to ask people for concrete statistics that you know do not exist, because you said it yourself. You know zos is the only ones who have the numbers, and you know all we can go on is stuff like steam charts, youtube, the forums, and our experience.

Players that are having a positive experience and were not negatively affected by changes are not being toxic by giving their own personal feedback.

It is also not toxic to ask for concrete numbers to back up a statement that there is "mountains" of evidence for something we haven't noticed at all.

Not having a bad experience does not make us or our feedback toxic.

i guess ill repeat myself. It is when you agreed that the only people that have the concrete numbers are zos. And you basically dismiss everything else other than the one thing you know no one but zos has, as you admitted. i find that toxic. Plus you offer no counter argument or other explanation for the many specific things that i, or other people, have listed that have been declining. Like even in my last post. Things that are undeniable.

I also find it toxic to come into these threads and dismiss peoples opinions and first hand experience with the game. Especially when what you're saying is basically i dont experience it so its not happening. Its the most silly argument you can make, and if you put that same argument in any situation that YOU care about, you would find it toxic too.

So again, do you agree there is a population decline? or disagree. And if so what do you think the reason for it is?

SilverBride

Lags wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Players that are having a positive experience and were not negatively affected by changes are not being toxic by giving their own personal feedback.

It is also not toxic to ask for concrete numbers to back up a statement that there is "mountains" of evidence for something we haven't noticed at all.

Not having a bad experience does not make us or our feedback toxic.

I also find it toxic to come into these threads and dismiss peoples opinions and first hand experience with the game. Especially when what you're saying is basically i dont experience it so its not happening.

I never once dismissed that other players have had a negative experience. The only thing I disagreed with was that there is "mountains" of evidence that the game is now declining because of a change that happened 2 years ago.