Tales of Tribute - game is TERRIBLE for new players. What is even going on?

Northwold

RomanRex wrote: »

If this were a game designed around ToT, maybe. No one plays ESO for ToT though. It’s an after thought in a game where people are already concerned about the population declining.

I'm afraid you're wrong on that. I do. I wanted to return to ESO a bit but on casual activities, not the time sucking grind. ToT fit that bill perfectly.

I really think it's quite important that MMOs offer a variety of activities and I think ToT was a good step forward in that respect. Though I very mush wish they would make some changes that *restrict* play, rather than constantly adding more and more decks (eg a deck veto, a version where the server selects the four decks and the players get no choice).

RomanRex

Northwold wrote: »

RomanRex wrote: »

If this were a game designed around ToT, maybe. No one plays ESO for ToT though. It’s an after thought in a game where people are already concerned about the population declining.

I'm afraid you're wrong on that. I do. I wanted to return to ESO a bit but on casual activities, not the time sucking grind. ToT fit that bill perfectly.

I really think it's quite important that MMOs offer a variety of activities and I think ToT was a good step forward in that respect. Though I very mush wish they would make some changes that *restrict* play, rather than constantly adding more and more decks (eg a deck veto, a version where the server selects the four decks and the players get no choice).

there are exceptions to every rule, but i think i am correct broadly.

comments on the forums, in-game experience and social media show how (most?) ESO players despise ToT.

Personofsecrets

RomanRex wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

RomanRex wrote: »

If this were a game designed around ToT, maybe. No one plays ESO for ToT though. It’s an after thought in a game where people are already concerned about the population declining.

I'm afraid you're wrong on that. I do. I wanted to return to ESO a bit but on casual activities, not the time sucking grind. ToT fit that bill perfectly.

I really think it's quite important that MMOs offer a variety of activities and I think ToT was a good step forward in that respect. Though I very mush wish they would make some changes that *restrict* play, rather than constantly adding more and more decks (eg a deck veto, a version where the server selects the four decks and the players get no choice).

there are exceptions to every rule, but i think i am correct broadly.

comments on the forums, in-game experience and social media show how (most?) ESO players despise ToT.

That's how these types of systems work. Sometimes design may stumble into something that has wide appeal, but there is also an aspect of game building which is looking to attract and hold the attention of niche players.

Aggrovious

I was hoping this card game allowed us to create a deck. The Tavern and Patrons are the most frustrating part of TOT, because it is heavy RNG. I find myself playing against NPCs more and thats it.

spartaxoxo

RomanRex wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

RomanRex wrote: »

If this were a game designed around ToT, maybe. No one plays ESO for ToT though. It’s an after thought in a game where people are already concerned about the population declining.

I'm afraid you're wrong on that. I do. I wanted to return to ESO a bit but on casual activities, not the time sucking grind. ToT fit that bill perfectly.

I really think it's quite important that MMOs offer a variety of activities and I think ToT was a good step forward in that respect. Though I very mush wish they would make some changes that *restrict* play, rather than constantly adding more and more decks (eg a deck veto, a version where the server selects the four decks and the players get no choice).

there are exceptions to every rule, but i think i am correct broadly.

comments on the forums, in-game experience and social media show how (most?) ESO players despise ToT.

People tend to be more likely to comment on things like the forums when they aren't happy with something.

I'm sure most people don't actually care one way or another about Tales.

It's certainly a niche activity but that doesn't mean most hate it. A lot of niche activities the general public are indifferent towards.

Also, very few matches end in concession and ranked games are matched with players in the same bracket. Why would someone who hates Tales climb to Rubedite? The same people stay winning in the highest rank season after season because they are good. He wins because he's better at the game and that skill counts for a lot. That's just objectively true. Impossible to have winrates that high across a thousand games (which diminishes the importance of concession and other weird things) unless skill counts for a lot.

Personofsecrets

Aggrovious wrote: »

I was hoping this card game allowed us to create a deck. The Tavern and Patrons are the most frustrating part of TOT, because it is heavy RNG. I find myself playing against NPCs more and thats it.

Yes, I'd like some deck building aspect as well. In particular, I've made several threads in the past that discuss the insufficiency of the card morphing mechanic and how such mechanic could be changed as to allow deck customization and higher level play.

tsaescishoeshiner

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

In ToT, you are either paying attention or your not.

I won't discourage the idea of additional features that offer more information. At the same time, knowing exactly what happened to your Bankorai Sentry probably wasn't going to help you. It died. It became a sunk cost. At that point, you can easily evaluate the information that you do have at your fingertips, such as the contents of both players decks, and move on.

I'm actually inclined to wish that ZOS would remove certain information, such as the ability to see your opponent's cards, or see which cards you've got in your draw pile, because to me that kind of ability in a card game seems an awful lot like cheating. But I know that a lot of ToT players use that ability constantly, and would riot if it were removed. It's just that it feels "dirty" to me.

This is one of my favorite features of ToT--otherwise, you would have to memorize or write down what they have in their deck. It makes it a lot more accessible without it making it less skill-based. Except for the one skill of keeping a mental inventory of their entire deck and what they've played that deck cycle, which I couldn't learn to do no matter how hard I tried. It would be cheating in a different game, but ToT is designed around it.

HatchetHaro

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

In ToT, you are either paying attention or your not.

I won't discourage the idea of additional features that offer more information. At the same time, knowing exactly what happened to your Bankorai Sentry probably wasn't going to help you. It died. It became a sunk cost. At that point, you can easily evaluate the information that you do have at your fingertips, such as the contents of both players decks, and move on.

I'm actually inclined to wish that ZOS would remove certain information, such as the ability to see your opponent's cards, or see which cards you've got in your draw pile, because to me that kind of ability in a card game seems an awful lot like cheating. But I know that a lot of ToT players use that ability constantly, and would riot if it were removed. It's just that it feels "dirty" to me.

This is one of my favorite features of ToT--otherwise, you would have to memorize or write down what they have in their deck. It makes it a lot more accessible without it making it less skill-based. Except for the one skill of keeping a mental inventory of their entire deck and what they've played that deck cycle, which I couldn't learn to do no matter how hard I tried. It would be cheating in a different game, but ToT is designed around it.

Yeah what he doesn't realize is that people can just... write things down on a spreadsheet instead. Congrats, now it's a game played primarily in a spreadsheet; sounds like oodles of fun (for me, I like spreadsheets).

Personofsecrets

HatchetHaro wrote: »

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

In ToT, you are either paying attention or your not.

I won't discourage the idea of additional features that offer more information. At the same time, knowing exactly what happened to your Bankorai Sentry probably wasn't going to help you. It died. It became a sunk cost. At that point, you can easily evaluate the information that you do have at your fingertips, such as the contents of both players decks, and move on.

I'm actually inclined to wish that ZOS would remove certain information, such as the ability to see your opponent's cards, or see which cards you've got in your draw pile, because to me that kind of ability in a card game seems an awful lot like cheating. But I know that a lot of ToT players use that ability constantly, and would riot if it were removed. It's just that it feels "dirty" to me.

This is one of my favorite features of ToT--otherwise, you would have to memorize or write down what they have in their deck. It makes it a lot more accessible without it making it less skill-based. Except for the one skill of keeping a mental inventory of their entire deck and what they've played that deck cycle, which I couldn't learn to do no matter how hard I tried. It would be cheating in a different game, but ToT is designed around it.

Yeah what he doesn't realize is that people can just... write things down on a spreadsheet instead. Congrats, now it's a game played primarily in a spreadsheet; sounds like oodles of fun (for me, I like spreadsheets).

It's also as easy as a 3rd party tracker, like what Hearthstone players use to track their decks throughout a game. Another option would be an addon that doesn't even need access to privileged info - it could just populate a players deck based on what it sees played and shuffles.

ESO_player123

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Aggrovious wrote: »

I was hoping this card game allowed us to create a deck. The Tavern and Patrons are the most frustrating part of TOT, because it is heavy RNG. I find myself playing against NPCs more and thats it.

Yes, I'd like some deck building aspect as well. In particular, I've made several threads in the past that discuss the insufficiency of the card morphing mechanic and how such mechanic could be changed as to allow deck customization and higher level play.

That would be an entirely different type of game though. As someone mentioned before, ToT resembles the Dominion table game (which I like). On the other hand, creating a deck is more of MTG type of thing. I hope they will not make changes to ToT so that the players have to create a deck. That would quickly kill my interest in ToT. Besides, "create a deck" type of games tend to constantly add more and more cards. So, it would be even more difficult for new players to catch up. Yes, new decks are also added to ToT, but with the current system even a new player can play the decks they do not have yet if an NPC/human opponent chooses them.

Personofsecrets

ESO_player123 wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Aggrovious wrote: »

I was hoping this card game allowed us to create a deck. The Tavern and Patrons are the most frustrating part of TOT, because it is heavy RNG. I find myself playing against NPCs more and thats it.

Yes, I'd like some deck building aspect as well. In particular, I've made several threads in the past that discuss the insufficiency of the card morphing mechanic and how such mechanic could be changed as to allow deck customization and higher level play.

That would be an entirely different type of game though. As someone mentioned before, ToT resembles the Dominion table game (which I like). On the other hand, creating a deck is more of MTG type of thing. I hope they will not make changes to ToT so that the players have to create a deck. That would quickly kill my interest in ToT. Besides, "create a deck" type of games tend to constantly add more and more cards. So, it would be even more difficult for new players to catch up. Yes, new decks are also added to ToT, but with the current system even a new player can play the decks they do not have yet if an NPC/human opponent chooses them.

Yes, being able to decide what morph to use would make TOT an entirely different game. A better one.

ESO_player123

Personofsecrets wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Aggrovious wrote: »

I was hoping this card game allowed us to create a deck. The Tavern and Patrons are the most frustrating part of TOT, because it is heavy RNG. I find myself playing against NPCs more and thats it.

Yes, I'd like some deck building aspect as well. In particular, I've made several threads in the past that discuss the insufficiency of the card morphing mechanic and how such mechanic could be changed as to allow deck customization and higher level play.

That would be an entirely different type of game though. As someone mentioned before, ToT resembles the Dominion table game (which I like). On the other hand, creating a deck is more of MTG type of thing. I hope they will not make changes to ToT so that the players have to create a deck. That would quickly kill my interest in ToT. Besides, "create a deck" type of games tend to constantly add more and more cards. So, it would be even more difficult for new players to catch up. Yes, new decks are also added to ToT, but with the current system even a new player can play the decks they do not have yet if an NPC/human opponent chooses them.

Yes, being able to decide what morph to use would make TOT an entirely different game. A better one.

Disabling/choosing a morph is very different from creating completely custom decks IMO. If it's just ticking a box "use this morph yes/no" I would not mind it. If it's a constant release of new individual cards that the players need to chase, then it's a big NO from me.

Personofsecrets

ESO_player123 wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Aggrovious wrote: »

I was hoping this card game allowed us to create a deck. The Tavern and Patrons are the most frustrating part of TOT, because it is heavy RNG. I find myself playing against NPCs more and thats it.

Yes, I'd like some deck building aspect as well. In particular, I've made several threads in the past that discuss the insufficiency of the card morphing mechanic and how such mechanic could be changed as to allow deck customization and higher level play.

That would be an entirely different type of game though. As someone mentioned before, ToT resembles the Dominion table game (which I like). On the other hand, creating a deck is more of MTG type of thing. I hope they will not make changes to ToT so that the players have to create a deck. That would quickly kill my interest in ToT. Besides, "create a deck" type of games tend to constantly add more and more cards. So, it would be even more difficult for new players to catch up. Yes, new decks are also added to ToT, but with the current system even a new player can play the decks they do not have yet if an NPC/human opponent chooses them.

Yes, being able to decide what morph to use would make TOT an entirely different game. A better one.

Disabling/choosing a morph is very different from creating completely custom decks IMO. If it's just ticking a box "use this morph yes/no" I would not mind it. If it's a constant release of new individual cards that the players need to chase, then it's a big NO from me.

While we are on the subject. I wouldn't necessarily mind if the existing patrons got expansion packs.

ESO_player123

Personofsecrets wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Aggrovious wrote: »

I was hoping this card game allowed us to create a deck. The Tavern and Patrons are the most frustrating part of TOT, because it is heavy RNG. I find myself playing against NPCs more and thats it.

Yes, I'd like some deck building aspect as well. In particular, I've made several threads in the past that discuss the insufficiency of the card morphing mechanic and how such mechanic could be changed as to allow deck customization and higher level play.

That would be an entirely different type of game though. As someone mentioned before, ToT resembles the Dominion table game (which I like). On the other hand, creating a deck is more of MTG type of thing. I hope they will not make changes to ToT so that the players have to create a deck. That would quickly kill my interest in ToT. Besides, "create a deck" type of games tend to constantly add more and more cards. So, it would be even more difficult for new players to catch up. Yes, new decks are also added to ToT, but with the current system even a new player can play the decks they do not have yet if an NPC/human opponent chooses them.

Yes, being able to decide what morph to use would make TOT an entirely different game. A better one.

Disabling/choosing a morph is very different from creating completely custom decks IMO. If it's just ticking a box "use this morph yes/no" I would not mind it. If it's a constant release of new individual cards that the players need to chase, then it's a big NO from me.

While we are on the subject. I wouldn't necessarily mind if the existing patrons got expansion packs.

Without deck creation that would lead to bloating of the tavern. If we WERE able to choose which cards to include and which to exclude, then it's deck creation which I do not want to deal with. As I mentioned before, I will happily play Dominion but not MTG.

Personofsecrets

ESO_player123 wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Aggrovious wrote: »

I was hoping this card game allowed us to create a deck. The Tavern and Patrons are the most frustrating part of TOT, because it is heavy RNG. I find myself playing against NPCs more and thats it.

Yes, I'd like some deck building aspect as well. In particular, I've made several threads in the past that discuss the insufficiency of the card morphing mechanic and how such mechanic could be changed as to allow deck customization and higher level play.

That would be an entirely different type of game though. As someone mentioned before, ToT resembles the Dominion table game (which I like). On the other hand, creating a deck is more of MTG type of thing. I hope they will not make changes to ToT so that the players have to create a deck. That would quickly kill my interest in ToT. Besides, "create a deck" type of games tend to constantly add more and more cards. So, it would be even more difficult for new players to catch up. Yes, new decks are also added to ToT, but with the current system even a new player can play the decks they do not have yet if an NPC/human opponent chooses them.

Yes, being able to decide what morph to use would make TOT an entirely different game. A better one.

Disabling/choosing a morph is very different from creating completely custom decks IMO. If it's just ticking a box "use this morph yes/no" I would not mind it. If it's a constant release of new individual cards that the players need to chase, then it's a big NO from me.

While we are on the subject. I wouldn't necessarily mind if the existing patrons got expansion packs.

Without deck creation that would lead to bloating of the tavern. If we WERE able to choose which cards to include and which to exclude, then it's deck creation which I do not want to deal with. As I mentioned before, I will happily play Dominion but not MTG.

What you may be missing is that a form of customization is already built into the game when playing the different Master NPC opponents. There are a number of cards that exist in their decks, but players can't use, and their decks aren't bloated whatsoever.

Personofsecrets

Maybe we could buy the custom Master NPC cards from the Crown store.

ESO_player123

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Maybe we could buy the custom Master NPC cards from the Crown store.

If I remember correctly we already had a discussion on this subject, and I already firmly opposed the idea of selling cards in the Crown store unless they add only cosmetic component. If they enhance/affect the gameplay then they as well can start selling dungeon/trial sets in the Crown store. And, yes, I would oppose such development as well.

Personofsecrets

ESO_player123 wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Maybe we could buy the custom Master NPC cards from the Crown store.

If I remember correctly we already had a discussion on this subject, and I already firmly opposed the idea of selling cards in the Crown store unless they add only cosmetic component. If they enhance/affect the gameplay then they as well can start selling dungeon/trial sets in the Crown store. And, yes, I would oppose such development as well.

Gear is already sold through the crown store via the proxy of DLC. When I buy something, I'd rather just have what I bought rather than having to put in another 20 hours on top of the payment.

Imagine if when someone purchased a pack of cards, they also had to run a mile lap around the game store before they could receive it. That would really be something!

ESO_player123

Personofsecrets wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Maybe we could buy the custom Master NPC cards from the Crown store.

If I remember correctly we already had a discussion on this subject, and I already firmly opposed the idea of selling cards in the Crown store unless they add only cosmetic component. If they enhance/affect the gameplay then they as well can start selling dungeon/trial sets in the Crown store. And, yes, I would oppose such development as well.

Gear is already sold through the crown store via the proxy of DLC. When I buy something, I'd rather just have what I bought rather than having to put in another 20 hours on top of the payment.

Imagine if when someone purchased a pack of cards, they also had to run a mile lap around the game store before they could receive it. That would really be something!

We are playing an MMORPG, not shopping in a store for a specific item. So, the items that affect the gameplay ideally should come from gameplay (access to which is bought in the form of DLC). Crown store is best suited for cosmetics.
Anyway, we already went through these exact arguments last time this topic was discussed. My opinion did not change (and will not change).

Taril

ESO_player123 wrote: »

Yes, new decks are also added to ToT, but with the current system even a new player can play the decks they do not have yet if an NPC/human opponent chooses them.

This would continue to be true even with the "Deck building" aspect though?

"Deck building" for a deckbuilding card game like ToT would simply be an extension of the morph system (Which already allows new players to play with morphs they haven't yet unlocked if an NPC/human opponent chooses them and has them unlocked). Whatever X player does to their deck, the entire list will be available to both players during the match when it is used.

That said, it does have a plethora of issues that could arise such as;

- Players will have to look through the decklists at the start of each game to know how the opponent chose to build their decks (As opposed to the current situation where you know the basis of every deck, with only a handful of morphs existing which are normally just the same card but with an extra stat like another gold/power/health or an additional combo tier)

- There would become "Meta" decklists that end up causing the same lack of variety as not having deck building at all.

- Card acquisition is already awful and I can't imagine how annoying it would be to have more emphasis on it.

ESO_player123

Taril wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

Yes, new decks are also added to ToT, but with the current system even a new player can play the decks they do not have yet if an NPC/human opponent chooses them.

This would continue to be true even with the "Deck building" aspect though?

"Deck building" for a deckbuilding card game like ToT would simply be an extension of the morph system (Which already allows new players to play with morphs they haven't yet unlocked if an NPC/human opponent chooses them and has them unlocked). Whatever X player does to their deck, the entire list will be available to both players during the match when it is used.

That said, it does have a plethora of issues that could arise such as;

- Players will have to look through the decklists at the start of each game to know how the opponent chose to build their decks (As opposed to the current situation where you know the basis of every deck, with only a handful of morphs existing which are normally just the same card but with an extra stat like another gold/power/health or an additional combo tier)

- There would become "Meta" decklists that end up causing the same lack of variety as not having deck building at all.

- Card acquisition is already awful and I can't imagine how annoying it would be to have more emphasis on it.

I'm not sure if players that wanted deck building wanted other players to use their cards (like the current ToT allows). But even if that was the case, the valid cons you listed way outweigh the pros IMO. AND I think deck building will lengthen the games significantly (see the bolded part of your post) which most people probably do not want to happen (I surely do not).

Cloudtrader

Disclaimer: I did not read the whole thread, so this might have been mentioned before...

When I tried to play ToT, I somehow clicked the Autoplay Cards button and thus for every turn I couldn't see my own cards. Once someone figured that out for me, the game looked like it was actually playable and maybe I could understand it! Maybe. I haven't tried. That particular frustration kinda really turned me off the game.

New players, make sure you haven't somehow clicked Autoplay Cards like I did!

Dahveed

Dahveed wrote: »

So, for sure I will never play this card game against another human being again.

...

I'm done posting and I'm done with this insanely frustrating game until they incorporate an actual "casual" room for beginners.

I lied.

I have a lot more to say, but instead of burying it here, I'm going to rewrite my OP, and put my original rant in a spoiler. Stay tuned.

(TLDR: The game is actually really well crafted if you give it a chance, but it is still horrible for new players.)

Dahveed

By putting a lot more TLC into the initial "learning" stages of the game, and gently easing new players into the experience with "softer" tutorials (and just slowing things down generally), I think more people who are intimidated or frustrated by something they don't understand (and don't even WANT to understand, judging by a lot of comments), they could boost participation immensely.

JemadarofCaerSalis

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Aggrovious wrote: »

I was hoping this card game allowed us to create a deck. The Tavern and Patrons are the most frustrating part of TOT, because it is heavy RNG. I find myself playing against NPCs more and thats it.

Yes, I'd like some deck building aspect as well. In particular, I've made several threads in the past that discuss the insufficiency of the card morphing mechanic and how such mechanic could be changed as to allow deck customization and higher level play.

I played a facebook game called Rise of Mythos that I loved, but eventually I couldn't play it anymore. It was a sort of Deckbuilding/RPG type where the cards would 'come to life' and move across a board towards each other according to certain rules.

I have been looking for something like that for so long, but have never found it. So, I definitely would love some sort of deck building game.

However, I don't think changing ToT to be that is the way to go. Not with the way it is set up.

I have said in another thread that I would love if ESO added more 'minigames', not just one or two, but a lot, and I feel that a deck building game could be part of that.

As for adding more and more cards, and the potential for power creep, that could be dealt with somewhat how ToT does, with having different decks patrons, and just making sure that the new decks aren't overpowered compared to the old, or buffing the old to make them comparable to the new.

Perhaps, if they don't want to do a true deck building game, but still want to give us more card games, they could just make it a standard 52 card deck (for games like solitaire, or similiar) and have each deck themed after specific things. Each one would have unique designs, but you couldn't use the deck in play until you found all the cards (and everyone would have access to a 'basic' deck, and any PvP games, one person would get to choose the deck and both players would use it, like it is with ToT)

As for ToT itself, I do think better tutorials would be helpful, but that is often a problem with many games, the tutorials cover the basics, and often give information overload, and then the basics, once a person has gotten the hang of them, aren't used again.

Arunei

Thoriorz wrote: »

DigiAngel wrote: »

Heh....glad I never bothered with it...looked like a complete waste of time.

Unfortunately, if you want Lead for the music box, you have to play ToT.
Currently around 3 months of doing NPC daily (3 wins vs NPC) and no Lead (for 2/3 codex), this is just a pain when you have to play something you don't like and every day I hope for Lead drop and every day just disappointment...
Really great design..

People say the same thing about any part of the game they don't like but has stuff they want locked behind it. And then get told by the people who enjoy that part of the game to suck it up. It would be nice if there were alternate ways to get things without slogging through portions of the game we really don't like.

I like ToT myself but don't like PvP, so I pretty much have this sentiment about that.

Personofsecrets

Arunei wrote: »

Thoriorz wrote: »

DigiAngel wrote: »

Heh....glad I never bothered with it...looked like a complete waste of time.

Unfortunately, if you want Lead for the music box, you have to play ToT.
Currently around 3 months of doing NPC daily (3 wins vs NPC) and no Lead (for 2/3 codex), this is just a pain when you have to play something you don't like and every day I hope for Lead drop and every day just disappointment...
Really great design..

People say the same thing about any part of the game they don't like but has stuff they want locked behind it. And then get told by the people who enjoy that part of the game to suck it up. It would be nice if there were alternate ways to get things without slogging through portions of the game we really don't like.

I like ToT myself but don't like PvP, so I pretty much have this sentiment about that.

There are multiple ways to get things. In particular, there are multiple ways to get leads. Once can earn them through play or through the vendors that offer leads at random.

joergino

Personofsecrets wrote: »

There are multiple ways to get things. In particular, there are multiple ways to get leads. Once can earn them through play or through the vendors that offer leads at random.

Unfortunately the amount of available leads is extremely limited (only four per week if I'm not mistaken) and their selection is completely random without any rhyme or reason behind it. In addition, many have been rather "mundane" leads while the bizarre and out-of-reach ones have never appeared. From all the leads I still need not a single one has appeared so far and it is doubtful that any will ever do so before either the game or I will be shut down.

To make things even worse, the amount of leads required for most items is five. So even if a lead for an item actually turns up, it's only one out of five and you have no idea if any of the other leads will ever turn up.

But I think a more general problem are the absolutely ludicrous prices in currencies that are not fun at all to earn. The "popularity" of the Imperial City DLC is most likely nothing that even needs mentioning. The Infinite Archive might be slightly less horrible for many, but I personally have always hated it and didn't enjoy a single second in there.

Arunei

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Thoriorz wrote: »

DigiAngel wrote: »

Heh....glad I never bothered with it...looked like a complete waste of time.

Unfortunately, if you want Lead for the music box, you have to play ToT.
Currently around 3 months of doing NPC daily (3 wins vs NPC) and no Lead (for 2/3 codex), this is just a pain when you have to play something you don't like and every day I hope for Lead drop and every day just disappointment...
Really great design..

People say the same thing about any part of the game they don't like but has stuff they want locked behind it. And then get told by the people who enjoy that part of the game to suck it up. It would be nice if there were alternate ways to get things without slogging through portions of the game we really don't like.

I like ToT myself but don't like PvP, so I pretty much have this sentiment about that.

There are multiple ways to get things. In particular, there are multiple ways to get leads. Once can earn them through play or through the vendors that offer leads at random.

I think you missed my point. I'm not only talking about Leads, or saying there aren't different ways to get things. What I'm saying is actually that very thing; numerous rewards are locked behind different kinds of content.

There are some cosmetics you can only get via PvP, by collecting X number of Y container for example. Gear sets can only be obtained via specific Dungeons, Crafting stations, etc (which is to say most every Set has a specific way you can obtain it and that's it). A number of Personalties are locked behind getting I think it's the Challenger achieve for numerous Dungeons, I have a horrible memory for which one it is you need.

My point was a large number of rewards are locked behind specific activities and there is no other way of obtaining them. I was saying it would be nice if there were alternative ways of getting these rewards. That way things locked behind stuff like PvP or ToT could be obtained through, say, PvE or crafting or something like that.

Probably won't ever happen, but a lady can dream.

Djennku

Arunei wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Thoriorz wrote: »

DigiAngel wrote: »

Heh....glad I never bothered with it...looked like a complete waste of time.

Unfortunately, if you want Lead for the music box, you have to play ToT.
Currently around 3 months of doing NPC daily (3 wins vs NPC) and no Lead (for 2/3 codex), this is just a pain when you have to play something you don't like and every day I hope for Lead drop and every day just disappointment...
Really great design..

People say the same thing about any part of the game they don't like but has stuff they want locked behind it. And then get told by the people who enjoy that part of the game to suck it up. It would be nice if there were alternate ways to get things without slogging through portions of the game we really don't like.

I like ToT myself but don't like PvP, so I pretty much have this sentiment about that.

There are multiple ways to get things. In particular, there are multiple ways to get leads. Once can earn them through play or through the vendors that offer leads at random.

I think you missed my point. I'm not only talking about Leads, or saying there aren't different ways to get things. What I'm saying is actually that very thing; numerous rewards are locked behind different kinds of content.

There are some cosmetics you can only get via PvP, by collecting X number of Y container for example. Gear sets can only be obtained via specific Dungeons, Crafting stations, etc (which is to say most every Set has a specific way you can obtain it and that's it). A number of Personalties are locked behind getting I think it's the Challenger achieve for numerous Dungeons, I have a horrible memory for which one it is you need.

My point was a large number of rewards are locked behind specific activities and there is no other way of obtaining them. I was saying it would be nice if there were alternative ways of getting these rewards. That way things locked behind stuff like PvP or ToT could be obtained through, say, PvE or crafting or something like that.

Probably won't ever happen, but a lady can dream.

If you want something that is rewarded for X content, you need to play the content and not complain because you don't want to put in the effort to obtain it. It's like me demanding to have the Sunspire Ice-Fire mount given to me because I hate doing trials.

That how ESO, and ANY OTHER GAMES work. Demanding things be changed for one person because they feel inconvienienced is pure entitlement.