I’m still befuddled by the Tanlorin quest-chain “twist.” (Avast, there be spoilers)

Ingel_Riday · November 3

TLDR: I don’t understand the character motivations behind Wisteria’s betrayal. It makes no sense to me.
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I’ll be blunt: I was not a big fan of the Tanlorin quest chain, at all. Once I got past my cringing, though… I was able to make sense of most of it.

Except the Wisteria betrayal. I just thoroughly can’t make any sense of it.

“I joined the Cey-Thalmor for us, Tan! So that we can make a world where we can be together!” - Wisteria, Tan's best friend and lover.

My initial thoughts: well… huh? What? The Summerset Isles portrayed in this game are super-progressive. They’re full of openly LGBTQIA+ individuals, marriage is between anyone who wants to get married, the islands have full open borders to anyone who wants to migrate there, there is absolutely no slavery or soul-sucking to be seen, and the few high elves that you do meet who espouse Altmer supremacy and/or xenophobia are either:
- Treated like bumbling fools.
- Openly portrayed as evil / misguided.
- Straight up killed as opponents.

How can Wisteria and Tan not be together, exactly? I mean, even the villains in their private correspondence refuse to misgender Tan. You know, because they may be murderous extremists who like to torture people with ice magic… but they’re not THAT evil. The inner thoughts of Tan’s disapproving family are perfectly cool with Tan’s identity politics. Nary a misgender in any of their private thoughts, which Tan reads via magic, because while they might be jerks… they’re not THAT evil. I don't think anyone would care if these two eloped.

So, what’s the deal here?

Took a long while, but I finally got it. In effect, the writing is bad. Extremely, comically bad. It’s intentionally using language that evokes the feel of "society ostracized me because I’m LGBTQIA+," but actually… Tanlorin is a Hulkynd. The writing didn’t bother using said term at any point because it might lessen the intentional conflation of fantasy with modern day politics, but yeah… nothing in this entire questline has ANYTHING to do with gender studies or identities or any of the hot topics of our day, other than Tanlorin being made a they/them. This quest chain is based on a far older issue. On a far older story template. It's a caste-system tale, masquerading as something more evocative to modern audiences.

The crux of Wisteria’s betrayal is that Tanlorin is one of the Hulkynds, which are:

…Altmeri children who are abandoned by their parents at a young age for being born with physical imperfections or deformities. These "Broken Children" live as outcasts, as those without family are not even recognized as a member of Altmeri society. As associating yourself with a Hulkynd is seen as shameful, Hulkynds struggle to even survive in Summerset. Even something like a simple facial deformity in a child's face can cause them to be abandoned and ostracized. - R/ElderscrollsLore

Tanlorin can’t do magic right. Family members tried to help with the magic tattoos and therapies, but none of these really took. Tanlorin’s magic is strong, but unstable and chaotic. It’s not safe. The family ultimately gave up and dumped Tanlorin, who is now an outcast in Altmer society. Hulkynd status. They basically made Tanlorin an untouchable (Dalit).

“But Ingel, you jerk… I never saw the term Hulkynd mentioned once in the whole quest chain.”

I KNOW. It never was. It’s never actually mentioned, at all, because it would lessen the conflation of fantasy and modern politics. This is bad, agenda-laden writing. It's intentionally sloppy.

But back to Wisteria. So… Wisteria clearly realized that The Garland Ring secret society was never going to achieve equality for Hulkynds, and that she would never be able to be with Tan in general Altmer society (2nd Era Altmer don’t care that you’re in a LGBTQIA+ relationship, but dating a Hulkynd? Disgusting). So, she decided to join the Cey-Thalmor to make it happen.

Huh? As we’ve established, general Altmer society might be super-progressive sexually and racially, but it does not like Hulkynds or Apraxics. It might tolerate these people, but only barely. The Thalmor, who are an extremely conservative branch of Altmer society, would like these people still LESS. The Cey-Thalmor are supposed to be an even more extreme offshoot of the Thalmor. You know, a group so extreme that it would make the average bigoted Thalmor member go, “woah… dude, chill. That’s a lot, man. Wow. I don’t like Argonians, Bretons, Hulkynds, or Apraxics either, but… bleh. You need some help! Be better!”

Why would Wisteria think that these people would help Hulkynds? What is going on here? Are we working off the idea that if you go too extremely in one political direction, you’ll just loop around and come out on the other end? This is the WORST faction to join if you are trying to get equality for your outcast them-friend. It’s dumb.

“If you get in my way, tan, I’ll end you!”

Yeah, I joined this faction only because of my love for you, to fight for your rights (not as a LGBTQIA+ member, even though it comes across that way intentionally. As a Hulkynd), and you are my main motivation for everything I’m doing. My heart and soul. But, if you get in the way of what I’m doing for us and our relationship, I’ll kill you and end our relationship.

It’s so dumb. I don’t understand it. I’m just utterly flabbergasted. The more I think about it, the more I hate it. Oi vei. Nonsensical.

ValeriatheBarbarian · November 3

i'm *** & a student of literature. my take on Tanlorin is that they unintentionally set representation back by feeling so unnatural. it's almost hard to put a finger on.

best i can describe it: Tanlorin doesn't feel like they organically came from the world of Skyrim. Tanlorion feels like they came from central casting via the prompt: "genderqueer printmaking student in west philly coffee shop". i clocked that Tan's gender neutrality was intended to be representational the second i saw them, and heard the neutral shortening of their name (like Tan France), etc. so yes, it breaks immersion too.

ESO writers tried so hard here to shoehorn a gender oppression narrative into the game via Tanloren that it broke them completely as a character who represents attributes of their own. you know, attributes other than being a sexy androgene with colorful hair. that's frankly offensive, to all of us *** folks who really do have a lot more to offer the world than romance plots featuring abuse.

also - esp as a *** person - i strongly resent being namecalled 'transphobic' for asserting that it's immersion-breaking to hear talk about rights and gender (i.e. politics) in eso. i'm not the only person in the world who uses ESO to escape having to clock things in political ways. real representation would be introducing NB characters who are just normal and not doing anything special or going through big sagas just living life to the fullest.

PrincessOfThieves · November 3

I've been waiting for an altmer companion for my sorc and I really wanted to like Tanlorin, but I feel like they do not fit in the setting at all. They feel more like a modern college kid who got isekai'd into a game world.
This is really weird because most, if not all, LGBTQ+ representation in ESO is done in a much more organic way.

Virenic · November 3

I was also a bit surprised that the term Hulkynd didn't come up during the quest line at all. I ended up looking up the dialogue that referred to Hulkynds to check my understanding and think that Tanlorin ultimately isn't a Hulkynd, but rather an Ouster (they do use the term 'oustered' repeatedly throughout the quest line).

The distinction between the two is maybe a bit murky but, as you've noted, Hulkynds were abandoned by their parents at a young age due to physical deformities. I don't think Tanlorin's issues with magic constitute a physical deformity, and I don't think she was abandoned at a young enough age (the example we have of a Hulkynd in Summerset states he was abandoned as a baby). Tanlorin was 'oustered' at an older age, for reasons other than physical deformity. Ultimately the two terms are functionally similar in that both groups are disinherited/banished from their family, and are social outcasts.

I don't think not using the term Hulkynd was due to modern politics or any kind of agenda. Ouster is a pre-existing term from base game.

Artim_X · November 3

Very insightful. I haven't done their questline yet but if it is as the OP says, I am disappointed that the writing is done in a way to confuse the players and essentially break immersion.

In ESO alone we have a variety of relationships between NPCs being portrayed in a natural way that doesn’t break immersion.

I also recall a character that identifies as a crocodile and we help them achieve that goal. There was another character that identified as a different race and used magic to achieve their goal (accidentally became the wrong race instead of what they wanted). Alchemy another character from Summerset is written quite well imho and that dealt with identity issues.

I have an unhinged amount of hours put into this game that can be quantified in years because no matter how rubbish reality gets I am able to escape to the world of the elder scrolls.

All I want is logical FANTASY writing that respects the lore and does not try to be some sort of blatant take on modern politics.

When fantasy writing avoids modern concepts it allows itself to remain timeless and always relevant. Fantasy works best when it draws from in-universe concepts that may or may not be relevant to the real world (being ostracized for not having magic, being a shape changer, being a daedra worshiper, being born a shadowscale, etc.). The writers seems to have did the character a disservice by not directly tying the plot the actual logic of the universe.

Syldras · November 3

You know, this was exactly what I feared (and sadly expected) when I heard them introducing Tanlorin as "our first nonbinary companion" in the reveal stream (differently to Isobel who was not introduced as "our first lesbian companion" but just was lesbian, which was treated completely naturally in her story), and when I saw the character design with colourful asymmetrical hair (super real world cliché and uncommon and unlogical for Tamriel - I've often read that in real life, this hair style is considered "nonbinary" because it's somehow inbetween "female hairstyles = long, male hairstyles = short", which isn't only a strangely narrow-minded idea, but doesn't make sense for Tamriel at all where long hair is absolutely common for men) - and even Tanlorin's whole colour scheme resembling the colors of the nonbinary flag.

When I wrote about it, speaking against stereotypical depiction of minorities (which does concern me personally as a gay man) I was heavily criticized. I don't care, I still dislike this character design and it feels more like wanting to show progressiveness than actually caring about how this portrayal might affect LGBT people in the end. I personally believe that a natural, normal depiction would be much more helpful. ZOS managed that with many characters before, from the base game on, so I do find it especially concerning that suddenly the approach to this is completely different.

Let alone that putting a statement about the modern real world into a story that takes place in a completely different time, world and society with completely different cultural norms usually feels off. Some very talented writers get that done, but subtly, metaphorically, and not as obvious as in this case.

SkaraMinoc · November 3

Ingel_Riday wrote: »

I mean, even the villains in their private correspondence refuse to misgender Tan. You know, because they may be murderous extremists who like to torture people with ice magic… but they’re not THAT evil.

Didn't expect the Ceythalmor to be so inclusive.

SkaraMinoc · November 3

Syldras wrote: »

When I wrote about it, speaking against stereotypical depiction of minorities (which does concern me personally as a gay man) I was heavily criticized.

You're correct and it's offensive when game developers do this.

bantamguar · November 3

What's funny are the people telling on themselves by calling others 'bigots' for being unhappy with Tanlorin, then following it up with how the Elder Scrolls has always had LGBT characters.

Yes, that is the point.
They fit into the world because they were well-written characters whose existence didn't revolve around their gender or sexuality. Their relationships were portrayed naturally in a universe where it was never an issue. They were never introduced as X or Y, nor was that their only defining feature. They just were.

Meanwhile, Tanlorin comes off as a Tumblr self-insert that barely fits in the world and is there to push "current issue" narratives.

Syldras · November 3

bantamguar wrote: »

What's funny are the people telling on themselves by calling others 'bigots' for being unhappy with Tanlorin, then following it up with how the Elder Scrolls has always had LGBT characters.
Yes, that is the point.
They fit into the world because they were well-written characters whose existence didn't revolve around their gender or sexuality. Their relationships were portrayed naturally in a universe where it was never an issue. They were never introduced as X or Y, nor was that their only defining feature. They just were.
Meanwhile, Tanlorin comes off as a Tumblr self-insert that barely fits in the world and is there to push "current issue" narratives.

The first TES character that could be seen as nonbinary is probably Vivec. I know some people think of him as intersex, but there's a dialogue with Sotha Sil in CWC that sounds very much like it's more about how Vivec identifies or wishes to be than about his physical form:

The original Morrowind was released in May 2002, over 22 years ago. Did anyone ever complain about Vivec being written like this? I don't think I've ever read such complaints.

bantamguar · November 3

Syldras wrote: »

The first TES character that could be seen as nonbinary is probably Vivec. I know some people think of him as intersex, but there's a dialogue with Sotha Sil in CWC that sounds very much like it's more about how Vivec identifies or wishes to be than about his physical form:

The original Morrowind was released in May 2002, over 22 years ago. Did anyone ever complain about Vivec being written like this? I don't think I've ever read such complaints.

Thats exactly the character I had in mind when I was writing that. This is how to properly include (or allude to, I suppose) such things. Imagine if Morrowind was released today..

Also, here's an interesting thread about that!

"I think Vivec wants to be the metaphysical prisoner, the role that the player takes. Whether it’s fourth wall breaking or something that fits within the story, Vivec and Sotha Sil know about the role of the prisoner, and how it/they can take on any form, gender, or backstory. Vivec is ultimately unable to achieve that state of being."

AcadianPaladin · November 3

I view Tanlorin's sexuality as not an issue. She appears to be a lesbian or possibly bisexual to me.

I do have two problems with her though -

First is the they/them stuff. Every time I hear it, I'm looking around for where the (plural) others are. Every. Time. I don't know what the answer is. They/them is too confusing/vague. The term 'it' ensures singularity but that seems. . . insulting to apply to a humanoid.

Secondly, her personality seems in many ways to be a knockoff of Ember's (young, brash, undisiciplined, cutesy) but the problem is that Ember pulls it off well. Tanlorin's personality manifests as confused/inconsistent.

LunaFlora · November 4

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

I view Tanlorin's sexuality as not an issue except she appears to be a lesbian or possibly bisexual to me. I do have two problems with her.

First is the they/them stuff. Every time I hear it, I'm looking around for where the (plural) others are. Every. Time. I don't know what the answer is. They/them is too confusing/vague. The term 'it' ensures singularity but that seems. . . insulting to apply to a humanoid.

Secondly, her personality seems in many ways to be a knockoff of Ember's (young, brash, undisiciplined, cutesy) but the problem is that Ember pulls it off well. Tanlorin's personality manifests as confused/inconsistent.

https://www.mentalfloss.com/posts/singular-they-history
here's an article on the history of singular they.
it mentions works from the 13th century as oldest examples,
William and the Werewolf from 1375 and The Canterbury Tales by Geoffrey Chaucer from 1386.
and William Shakespeare also used it in some of his plays.

and here's wikipedia
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they

it's been a thing for centuries and "you" has also been used plural and singular for a long time. "You" used to be exclusively plural too.

People choosing singular they for themselves, whilst newer, should not be vague or confusing as it is part of English to use it for people that you don't know (instead of the longer "he or she" that excludes some people).

So you very likely have encountered people use singular they anyway even without the subject being non-binary. maybe you even did it yourself without being aware as it's basic English.

Lastly, knowing that Tanlorin uses they/them pronouns and insisting on using she/her for them instead is in fact misgendering. (regardless of them being a fictional character)

ArchangelIsraphel · November 4

Like many others in this thread, I was also completely disappointed with Tanlorin's storyline. Not only was I disappointed, but I felt very dismayed by this shift in the world of Tamriel. Due to the way in which this particular character's experience was depicted, I found myself very confused, as it was not a reflection of the world I have come to know and love.

Part of what I have always enjoyed about the world building in ESO was that the LGBTQ+ characters depicted were simply built into the world naturally. They exist as a fact of life, which is largely accepted by the various cultures of this world, instead of being treated as some kind of unusual anomaly or special exception. The world building depicted them as PEOPLE, as characters first, with backstories, fears, joys, needs and wants- not as an advertisement for their sexuality or identity. Those things are a -part- of them, but they are not the whole of who they are. Even when they struggled, the struggle was depicted with realism, and compassion.

Most of all, there was actual artistic passion behind those characters, something I do not get at all from Tanlorin.

And I loved that. I loved that because that's the world -I- want to live in, a world where I can comfortably exist as who and what I am, where my sexuality (Biromantic, bisexual) is nothing more than a fact of life. Not special. Not unusual.

My characters have a variety of orientations, and after seeing so many other LGBTQ+ couples present in game, I loved the comfort that came of having them exist in a world were being LGBTQ+ was about as important as wondering what was for dinner. Meaning, it's normal. It's just a part of the natural order of things. We don't need to fight for representation here because we're already accepted as a part of the world.

Now this implication has been inserted into the game that Tamriel's society doesn't see things this way, and we're suddenly dealing with real-world politics that never seemed to be present before.

I also can't help but feel, in the strangest way, that through attempts at representation, we're being shoe-horned into a specific cliché that is somehow narrower than a complete lack of representation would be.

I'm deeply saddened, because voices that scream louder than mine always get heard first, when those voices never spoke for me, or others who feel as I do.

I just want to ask the devs- please. Listen to your audience. To the quiet storytellers who love your world. To those of us who have found a home here. See us. Hear us. Your LGBTQ+ was already beautiful, you already made us feel comforted here. Don't rip that away.

also - esp as a *** person - i strongly resent being namecalled 'transphobic' for asserting that it's immersion-breaking to hear talk about rights and gender (i.e. politics) in eso. i'm not the only person in the world who uses ESO to escape having to clock things in political ways. real representation would be introducing NB characters who are just normal and not doing anything special or going through big sagas just living life to the fullest.

This. All of this. It's uncomfortable, and alarming. But we have to speak up for ourselves, and risk the name calling, in order to be heard, or else our voices will be lost. I admire those who have chosen to add their voices here, and speak openly about their concerns.

zaria · November 4

Artim_X wrote: »

Very insightful. I haven't done their questline yet but if it is as the OP says, I am disappointed that the writing is done in a way to confuse the players and essentially break immersion.

In ESO alone we have a variety of relationships between NPCs being portrayed in a natural way that doesn’t break immersion.

I also recall a character that identifies as a crocodile and we help them achieve that goal. There was another character that identified as a different race and used magic to achieve their goal (accidentally became the wrong race instead of what they wanted). Alchemy another character from Summerset is written quite well imho and that dealt with identity issues.

I have an unhinged amount of hours put into this game that can be quantified in years because no matter how rubbish reality gets I am able to escape to the world of the elder scrolls.

All I want is logical FANTASY writing that respects the lore and does not try to be some sort of blatant take on modern politics.

When fantasy writing avoids modern concepts it allows itself to remain timeless and always relevant. Fantasy works best when it draws from in-universe concepts that may or may not be relevant to the real world (being ostracized for not having magic, being a shape changer, being a daedra worshiper, being born a shadowscale, etc.). The writers seems to have did the character a disservice by not directly tying the plot the actual logic of the universe.

Who identify as an crocodile, and become one? The other I remember well it was an dunmer hanging out in an khajiit pub wanting to become an khajiit. You can also start this quest finding an bag in a delve, he become an argonian instead

Done all the quests in ESO couple of times so think I would remember the crocodile story

TheMajority · November 4

Yeah, I did not like this questing line either. It contradict itself over and over again. Why kill the lover that u want to even do all this for if they get in your way, it get you NOTHING in the end, who you really serving then if you do that? I do not understand this story line at all and as a result did not take tanlorin from the shop even though they are free to me on all accounts. once on the test server was enough of this story line to tell me that the way representation was done was not what I wanna see as someone who is part of LGBTQ+ community.

I am really upset and tired of dysfunctional, toxic relationships being what gets shown for LGBTQ+, I feel it gives a bad impression of us when there are already so many struggles we must face IRL. Can we see a functional happy and loving/not manipulative relationship for LGBTQ+ PLEASE?

WhiteCoatSyndrome · November 4

zaria wrote: »

Who identify as an crocodile, and become one? The other I remember well it was an dunmer hanging out in an khajiit pub wanting to become an khajiit. You can also start this quest finding an bag in a delve, he become an argonian instead

Done all the quests in ESO couple of times so think I would remember the crocodile story

This one. It’s in Stormhaven.

colossalvoids · November 4

I'm saddened that instead hearing this valid, nuanced opinions Bill Slavicsek went with journalist's narrative about people "claiming that their non-binary gender is out of place in TES Online's universe" which was never the case with it's criticism. The best "war" is won when you ignore the "opponent" and defend something none attacked it seems.

Juomuuri · November 4

I have no problem with Tanlorin's gender identity, but I DO have a problem with how awful the writing in their quests is. I had no idea what was happening and then suddenly we gotta kill their girlfriend because she became a fascist who wants to kill the proxy queen?? What. I'm so disappointed and angry that the "first nonbinary character" got such a treatment. Tanlorin as a character, outside of these quests, seems alright. I like their one-liners and their passive/keepsake is useful to me. But I would've been happier if they were given a regular haircut, not this stereotypical one... There already exists some dual color hair styles, so why not make a custom purple one from those and boom, they would've looked more natural! Also, the game wants us to believe the Garland Ring is doing spy work. We're told, but not shown. This is like Firesong's writing all over again...

Silaf · November 4

I tried to focus on the quest but the forced political language ruined it for me.

I'm fine with the transgender presence but i don't want to be forced to entratain absurd delusions and conform to the nonsensical language.
At least give me the option not to.

On top of this i'm Italian and found the skills descriptions difficult to follow since in many cases i coulden't figure out if it only applied to the companion or me too...

About the story tough i'm confused about the Thalmor role since i was under the impression that in ESO time they were a normal political force witout any particular negative connotation.
And yes, i too found the villain "i need to conquer the world to be happy" motivation silly.

SteveCampsOut · November 4

You could all just do as I do and ignore their storyline and make your own up in your head. Once their main quest is over, you don't have to deal with the bad writing anymore.

PrincessOfThieves · November 4

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

First is the they/them stuff. Every time I hear it, I'm looking around for where the (plural) others are. Every. Time. I don't know what the answer is. They/them is too confusing/vague. The term 'it' ensures singularity but that seems. . . insulting to apply to a humanoid.

Actually English is one of those languages where you can easily use ambiguous pronouns. In more "gendered" ones such as German or French it is much more complicated and even native speakers are often not familiar with it.

PrincessOfThieves · November 4

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

You could all just do as I do and ignore their storyline and make your own up in your head. Once their main quest is over, you don't have to deal with the bad writing anymore.

Yeah but it's paid content. Players deserve good content, and calling out subpar writing is just fair.
And LGBT people deserve good representation. Especially in the current political climate, flanderized LGBT characters do more harm than good. These are the kinds of characters grifters will use as a weapon against anything progressive.

WhiteCoatSyndrome · November 4

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

You could all just do as I do and ignore their storyline and make your own up in your head. Once their main quest is over, you don't have to deal with the bad writing anymore.

I just ignore her altogether. We’ve already got six Companions, not counting Zerith. Being behind a paywall actually makes that easier!

Syldras · November 4

colossalvoids wrote: »

I'm saddened that instead hearing this valid, nuanced opinions Bill Slavicsek went with journalist's narrative about people "claiming that their non-binary gender is out of place in TES Online's universe" which was never the case with it's criticism. The best "war" is won when you ignore the "opponent" and defend something none attacked it seems.

I think there's a big difference between an idea/feeling (for example "I feel I'm something between male and female") and a cultural concept (which includes a specific name for this idea/feeling, a standardized way of conveying it, culturally established markers - a certain look - that is supposed to be typical for it). Ideas or feelings exist as long as humans existed. There are historical sources (talking about the real world now) that there were individuals who have considered themselves neither completely male nor completely female in earlier eras of mankind. So of course, an ESO character could also have this feeling. It's in the realm of possibility for how a human (or similar) being feels or sees themself and the world. On the other hand, the term non-binary completely with defined pronouns and a typical way to look is a modern Western concept that is only a few years old (and some regions of the world don't know it at all) - so something that's very limited in time and location. Putting exactly this concept into a story that takes place in a different world, time and culture makes it feel off and breaks immersion. That is the whole problem.

Related to this, it leads to the impression that the writers didn't have a good, lorefriendly and convincing story in mind but their main goal was to make a very obvious statement on the real world. Which isn't what I prefer when I play a fantasy game. I know, many authors make subtle statements about the way they see life all the time, no matter what a story is mainly about or where it takes place - but it's done subtly, not by just copying the real world concept and plainly dumping it into the fantasy world.

I have heard that ZOS has somehow involved activists(?) in counceling them about the story, which might also be a problem. Activists focus very much on their field (naturally, that's what activism is), they make everything about it, so of course a story would look like that too - which might not be what the average LGBT person, who just wants to live their life peacefully, might enjoy in a narration.

Elsonso · November 4

bantamguar wrote: »

Meanwhile, Tanlorin comes off as a Tumblr self-insert that barely fits in the world and is there to push "current issue" narratives.

That is because it was made pretty clear that the importance behind Tanlorin had nothing to do with Elder Scrolls or Elder Scrolls Online when they announced that they were the first non-binary NPC in the game. That makes them in the game because ZOS needed a check in some box. (Edit: The interview from the lead writer basically confirms this)

Anyway, I am more interested in a good story that fits into the game and less interested in how shiny their check in that box looks. It seems my initial concern about the character may have been correct?

colossalvoids · November 4

Syldras wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

I'm saddened that instead hearing this valid, nuanced opinions Bill Slavicsek went with journalist's narrative about people "claiming that their non-binary gender is out of place in TES Online's universe" which was never the case with it's criticism. The best "war" is won when you ignore the "opponent" and defend something none attacked it seems.

I think there's a big difference between an idea/feeling (for example "I feel I'm something between male and female") and a cultural concept (which includes a specific name for this idea/feeling, a standardized way of conveying it, culturally established markers - a certain look - that is supposed to be typical for it). Ideas or feelings exist as long as humans existed. There are historical sources (talking about the real world now) that there were individuals who have considered themselves neither completely male nor completely female in earlier eras of mankind. So of course, an ESO character could also have this feeling. It's in the realm of possibility for how a human (or similar) being feels or sees themself and the world. On the other hand, the term non-binary completely with defined pronouns and a typical way to look is a modern Western concept that is only a few years old (and some regions of the world don't know it at all) - so something that's very limited in time and location. Putting exactly this concept into a story that takes place in a different world, time and culture makes it feel off and breaks immersion. That is the whole problem.

Related to this, it leads to the impression that the writers didn't have a good, lorefriendly and convincing story in mind but their main goal was to make a very obvious statement on the real world. Which isn't what I prefer when I play a fantasy game. I know, many authors make subtle statements about the way they see life all the time, no matter what a story is mainly about or where it takes place - but it's done subtly, not by just copying the real world concept and plainly dumping it into the fantasy world.

I have heard that ZOS has somehow involved activists(?) in counceling them about the story, which might also be a problem. Activists focus very much on their field (naturally, that's what activism is), they make everything about it, so of course a story would look like that too - which might not be what the average LGBT person, who just wants to live their life peacefully, might enjoy in a narration.

Can only agree with that, but that nuance for some reason isn't cutting through the buzz still with developers, letting "journalists" aside as causing drama is the whole job nowadays. It's like bringing up Vivec recolour with some modern day western flags on his spear versus bringing just Vivec by itself, how it is - without signaling, scoring social points but allowing character to just Be. In all his complexity as humans are way more complex that internet tends to portray with just couple of coloured boxes to sit in.

Elder scrolls was always "diverse", but it wasn't about anything modernity throws at us to divide but just a natural state of the world, where everything we're waging our mini social wars on isn't a problem or something worth to even put any attention to. It's an ideal world in that sense humanity strife for minus daedric invasions and always ongoing conquest.

Syldras · November 4

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

You could all just do as I do and ignore their storyline and make your own up in your head. Once their main quest is over, you don't have to deal with the bad writing anymore.

Then the next companion might be the overdramatic gay male Bosmer fashion-designer with rainbow hair and a lisp (or any other ridiculous cliché). No thank you. I don't want to engage with such stereotypical characters, and even less if I'm supposed to feel "represented" by them just because I share the sexual orientation of that character. I've written it in another thread before: Reducing groups of people to a cliché is insulting.

Elsonso wrote: »

That is because it was made pretty clear that the importance behind Tanlorin had nothing to do with Elder Scrolls or Elder Scrolls Online when they announced that they were the first non-binary NPC in the game. That makes them in the game because ZOS needed a check in some box.
Anyway, I am more interested in a good story that fits into the game and less interested in how shiny their check in that box looks. It seems my initial concern about the character may have been correct?

Sometimes I still dream of a fantasy narration with actual big cultural differences and where characters have a mindset that might not always be a copy of the current real world.

Although maybe at this point we should be happy that Tanlorin's first dialogue didn't start with "Hello, I'm nonbinary and oppressed (although no one in the game world actually seems to care and even enemies are using they/them-pronouns although it's very uncommon in the world of TES)" just to make a statement - maybe only a matter of time, who knows...

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

Actually English is one of those languages where you can easily use ambiguous pronouns. In more "gendered" ones such as German or French it is much more complicated and even native speakers are often not familiar with it.

In German and many other languages there are no neutral pronouns that could be used for humans. They just don't exist. Sometimes some activists have started making pronouns up during the last few years, but outside a limited circle of like-minded people no one knows them or uses them and they are not considered official language/grammar. The whole cultural concept of genderneutral pronouns might be even completely alien to people because of that (which then also shows in English lessons, btw: in 9 years or so never did an English teacher ever use singular they, it was always "he or she").

Now ZOS has just used some of these activist or peer-group created pronouns for Tanlorin in the translations. The words don't make sense to the random native speaker of these languages who has no clue about this scene/subcultural vocabulary (let's call it what it is). It's confusing and immersion-breaking for many if there's suddenly special pronouns to be used for one specific character in the game, special pronouns that don't exist in that language naturally. They make as much sense as randomly saying Tanlorin's pronouns were flarb/flurb. How is the average player supposed to react to sentences like "This is Tanlorin. Flarb is a hulkynd. I really like flurb."? Does anyone expect people to pick that up just because someone says that's how to speak about this character? I can tell you how the discussions look in some other-language forums: People who want to be polite avoid Tanlorin's pronouns altogether. Most just write "she".

Not to be misunderstood: I'm not against establishing a gender-neutral pronoun in languages that don't have that yet (might be useful, also when talking about someone who's gender is unknown). But it's a fact some languages don't have that yet and that people will be confused or even adverse if it's suddenly put into a narration. Just throwing that at people and expecting them to accept it immediately and participate in it doesn't work.

Jordan_Black · November 4

"I mean, even the villains in their private correspondence refuse to misgender Tan. You know, because they may be murderous extremists who like to torture people with ice magic… but they’re not THAT evil."

Exactly. As you noted, it's just comically bad writing. That's all it is. No need to befuddle yourself further. Repeated reminders of who is Oppressed and therefore Good are more important than the story making sense.

SkaiFaith · November 4

Syldras wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

I'm saddened that instead hearing this valid, nuanced opinions Bill Slavicsek went with journalist's narrative about people "claiming that their non-binary gender is out of place in TES Online's universe" which was never the case with it's criticism. The best "war" is won when you ignore the "opponent" and defend something none attacked it seems.

I think there's a big difference between an idea/feeling (for example "I feel I'm something between male and female") and a cultural concept (which includes a specific name for this idea/feeling, a standardized way of conveying it, culturally established markers - a certain look - that is supposed to be typical for it). Ideas or feelings exist as long as humans existed. There are historical sources (talking about the real world now) that there were individuals who have considered themselves neither completely male nor completely female in earlier eras of mankind. So of course, an ESO character could also have this feeling. It's in the realm of possibility for how a human (or similar) being feels or sees themself and the world. On the other hand, the term non-binary completely with defined pronouns and a typical way to look is a modern Western concept that is only a few years old (and some regions of the world don't know it at all) - so something that's very limited in time and location. Putting exactly this concept into a story that takes place in a different world, time and culture makes it feel off and breaks immersion. That is the whole problem.

Related to this, it leads to the impression that the writers didn't have a good, lorefriendly and convincing story in mind but their main goal was to make a very obvious statement on the real world. Which isn't what I prefer when I play a fantasy game. I know, many authors make subtle statements about the way they see life all the time, no matter what a story is mainly about or where it takes place - but it's done subtly, not by just copying the real world concept and plainly dumping it into the fantasy world.

I have heard that ZOS has somehow involved activists(?) in counceling them about the story, which might also be a problem. Activists focus very much on their field (naturally, that's what activism is), they make everything about it, so of course a story would look like that too - which might not be what the average LGBT person, who just wants to live their life peacefully, might enjoy in a narration.

I second this and I applaude to you @Syldras You have well expressed what many people think (or at least me) but won't put into words.
I find myself agreeing with the opinions of many expressed here.
Keep the insightful feedback coming.
Have a good day

Jordan_Black · November 4

To dovetail on a recent post (I can't get the quote thing to work), I too have heard there are activist organizations that offer video game companies money to shoehorn modern political issues into their games, but if they want that money there may be ways of doing it that are less silly.

For example, Isobel's story about her childhood love being a girl was sweet and natural, a nice story. I like Isobel, I use her to tank IA and I enjoy her in-game company. Tanlorin, on the other hand, will get packed up for good once I get my fast lockpicking.

Of course, maybe the activist money actually *requires* the shoehorned feel for the check to cash. I wouldn't be surprised.