Tales of Tribute for Zerith

noblecron

ZOS if you are going to force us to play tales of tribute can the npcs for tribute not be impossible to beat? I've been at it all day and keep losing games. I hate Tales so much. If I could remove one thing it would be your desire of tying everything behind your game for achieves.

disky

Tribute isn't the only way to increase rapport with Zerith-var, nor is it the only method for gaining the +125 boost. You can also do it through Northern Elsweyr Defense Force dailies.

noblecron

disky wrote: »

Tribute isn't the only way to increase rapport with Zerith-var, nor is it the only method for gaining the +125 boost. You can also do it through Northern Elsweyr Defense Force dailies.

Winning one match is required for one of his achievements unfortunately. More specifically. You have to pick up the daily and complete the quest by winning and ESO's novice AI is way too difficult

Taril

Ehh... The people aren't impossible to beat.

With the starter decks there's 3 main strategies that work pretty well:

1) Buying a bunch of Hlaalu cards (The yellow ones) and just grabbing tons of cards for free to spam out for massive gold/attack (Also, spam the Patron to sacrifice the expensive cards you got for free to get more Prestige and keep your deck smaller)

2) Buying a bunch of Pelin cards (The red ones) and spamming attack to get prestige (As well as getting Agents to soak enemy attack and prevent them gaining Prestige)

3) Buying a bunch of Crow cards (The purple ones) and doing silly giant chains of card drawing and gaining a bajillion gold to then pay off the Crow Patron for like 30+ prestige in one turn.

It's the Psijic (Blue) cards that I feel are lackluster with the starting sets (Though there are a few useful ones like the one that gives you 3 gold and lets you change a card since it helps you roll for something useful)

The Yellow and Red strategies are usually the easiest to do. While the Purple one is most fun when you have crazy pop off turns.

disky

noblecron wrote: »

disky wrote: »

Tribute isn't the only way to increase rapport with Zerith-var, nor is it the only method for gaining the +125 boost. You can also do it through Northern Elsweyr Defense Force dailies.

Winning one match is required for one of his achievements unfortunately. More specifically. You have to pick up the daily and complete the quest by winning and ESO's novice AI is way too difficult

I only ever play on Expert so I don't know the Novice AI, but I have heard other people say the same thing. If what people say is true then I do think there should be a more pronounced gradation across the difficulty levels, with an easier Novice and a more challenging Expert.

disky

Taril wrote: »

Ehh... The people aren't impossible to beat.

With the starter decks there's 3 main strategies that work pretty well:

1) Buying a bunch of Hlaalu cards (The yellow ones) and just grabbing tons of cards for free to spam out for massive gold/attack (Also, spam the Patron to sacrifice the expensive cards you got for free to get more Prestige and keep your deck smaller)

2) Buying a bunch of Pelin cards (The red ones) and spamming attack to get prestige (As well as getting Agents to soak enemy attack and prevent them gaining Prestige)

3) Buying a bunch of Crow cards (The purple ones) and doing silly giant chains of card drawing and gaining a bajillion gold to then pay off the Crow Patron for like 30+ prestige in one turn.

It's the Psijic (Blue) cards that I feel are lackluster with the starting sets (Though there are a few useful ones like the one that gives you 3 gold and lets you change a card since it helps you roll for something useful)

The Yellow and Red strategies are usually the easiest to do. While the Purple one is most fun when you have crazy pop off turns.

This is good advice. Not to criticize but sometimes I wonder how people are playing the game, because I just don't feel the same friction that others do when playing against the AI.

Juomuuri

I was only ever able to beat the novice NPCs on my own when ToT was fairly new, but ZOS keeps buffing them every now and then, resulting in the current overtuned novice AI... The only way I was able to get the win for the favor + ToT dailies was by streaming the game to my friend who actually knows how to play and him telling me what to do. AND according to him, all the games we played were more difficult than his games against proficient NPCs? Is this a bug on my end? Or just woefully bad luck, since my novice NPC opponents keep getting massive amounts of coin very quickly and they always buy the strongest cards! My friend helped me again today and we nearly lost the game even with his actual knowledge and skill being used through my hand... (Also before anyone says this is cheating, my friend didn't touch my account. This is the same as streaming a solo arena and asking for live tips! Or a Twitch streamer asking for tips from their chat/friend who is in a voice call etc.)

The tips given here are something I sent my friend, asking if he can explain them further so I could maybe get into ToT more. The game seems fun when I'm not being slamdunked by the novices, lol.

On a different note, I find it super weird that these companions are supposedly base game, but Zerith-var's favor requires either ESO+ or owning High Isle to even complete? You can never get the keepsake without those...

Taril

Juomuuri wrote: »

On a different note, I find it super weird that these companions are supposedly base game, but Zerith-var's favor requires either ESO+ or owning High Isle to even complete? You can never get the keepsake without those...

You can get Zerith-var's favour up without playing a single game of ToT.

Not only is his other daily available with the base game, but he has a plethora of other sources of rapport like clearing a Dark Anchor, looting Heavy Sacks or Water nodes.

Juomuuri

No you can't, winning a ToT match is REQUIRED for his favor achievement!

Edit to add: favor =/= rapport. Rapport can be earned without it, favor can't.

SeaGtGruff

disky wrote: »

noblecron wrote: »

disky wrote: »

Tribute isn't the only way to increase rapport with Zerith-var, nor is it the only method for gaining the +125 boost. You can also do it through Northern Elsweyr Defense Force dailies.

Winning one match is required for one of his achievements unfortunately. More specifically. You have to pick up the daily and complete the quest by winning and ESO's novice AI is way too difficult

I only ever play on Expert so I don't know the Novice AI, but I have heard other people say the same thing. If what people say is true then I do think there should be a more pronounced gradation across the difficulty levels, with an easier Novice and a more challenging Expert.

I haven't played against the Novice or Intermediate NPCs in a very long time, but what other players in the forums have said is that all of the NPCs play at the same level-- that is, use exactly the same AI-- they merely have access to different decks.

What I've observed with the Expert NPCs is that they tend to play favorites as far as prioritizing which patrons to use, which cards to buy, which agents to knock out, how to respond to their opponent's moves, etc.

If it's true that the Novice NPCs are difficult to beat, and if it's also true that they use the same AI tactics as the Expert NPCs but simply have access to only the first four decks, then it boils down to paying careful attention to what they do from game to game, so you can start to predict what they are most likely to do and hopefully figure out how to use their priorities against them and manipulating them.

What I do know, back from one of the times a few years ago when the AI was changed, is that you must be careful about how you react to the NPC's moves, because (for instance) you don't want to fall into the "trap" of spamming the Crow patron back and forth with the NPC if they've got better money cards than you do-- it's better to leave the Crow patron flipped in the NPC's favor so they can't use it again.

The same goes with other patrons and tactics-- be careful how you react to your opponent's moves; don't start reacting from a sense of panic, because that's when you're most likely to start making bad moves that cost you the game.

SteveCampsOut

disky wrote: »

Tribute isn't the only way to increase rapport with Zerith-var, nor is it the only method for gaining the +125 boost. You can also do it through Northern Elsweyr Defense Force dailies.

Dailies which are locked behind a long boring "Prequal" quest for every character you wish to use him with. Can his rapport be anymore disengaging?

JemadarofCaerSalis

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

disky wrote: »

noblecron wrote: »

disky wrote: »

Tribute isn't the only way to increase rapport with Zerith-var, nor is it the only method for gaining the +125 boost. You can also do it through Northern Elsweyr Defense Force dailies.

Winning one match is required for one of his achievements unfortunately. More specifically. You have to pick up the daily and complete the quest by winning and ESO's novice AI is way too difficult

I only ever play on Expert so I don't know the Novice AI, but I have heard other people say the same thing. If what people say is true then I do think there should be a more pronounced gradation across the difficulty levels, with an easier Novice and a more challenging Expert.

I haven't played against the Novice or Intermediate NPCs in a very long time, but what other players in the forums have said is that all of the NPCs play at the same level-- that is, use exactly the same AI-- they merely have access to different decks.

What I've observed with the Expert NPCs is that they tend to play favorites as far as prioritizing which patrons to use, which cards to buy, which agents to knock out, how to respond to their opponent's moves, etc.

If it's true that the Novice NPCs are difficult to beat, and if it's also true that they use the same AI tactics as the Expert NPCs but simply have access to only the first four decks, then it boils down to paying careful attention to what they do from game to game, so you can start to predict what they are most likely to do and hopefully figure out how to use their priorities against them and manipulating them.

What I do know, back from one of the times a few years ago when the AI was changed, is that you must be careful about how you react to the NPC's moves, because (for instance) you don't want to fall into the "trap" of spamming the Crow patron back and forth with the NPC if they've got better money cards than you do-- it's better to leave the Crow patron flipped in the NPC's favor so they can't use it again.

The same goes with other patrons and tactics-- be careful how you react to your opponent's moves; don't start reacting from a sense of panic, because that's when you're most likely to start making bad moves that cost you the game.

Pretty much this.

I like the crow deck, because if I can get a lot of cards, then I can get high money totals and pretty much win in a single round (instead of incrementing the prestige throughout the game)

One other thing to be careful of. Do not use the crow patron at too low of a money count, especially if it is going to your favor. Because you can't use it again, and the NPC won't always use it either.

I have noticed some NPCs seem to like the Psijic deck, which suits me because I don't. It leaves the other decks I like for me.

virtus753

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

disky wrote: »

noblecron wrote: »

disky wrote: »

Tribute isn't the only way to increase rapport with Zerith-var, nor is it the only method for gaining the +125 boost. You can also do it through Northern Elsweyr Defense Force dailies.

Winning one match is required for one of his achievements unfortunately. More specifically. You have to pick up the daily and complete the quest by winning and ESO's novice AI is way too difficult

I only ever play on Expert so I don't know the Novice AI, but I have heard other people say the same thing. If what people say is true then I do think there should be a more pronounced gradation across the difficulty levels, with an easier Novice and a more challenging Expert.

I haven't played against the Novice or Intermediate NPCs in a very long time, but what other players in the forums have said is that all of the NPCs play at the same level-- that is, use exactly the same AI-- they merely have access to different decks.

What I've observed with the Expert NPCs is that they tend to play favorites as far as prioritizing which patrons to use, which cards to buy, which agents to knock out, how to respond to their opponent's moves, etc.

If it's true that the Novice NPCs are difficult to beat, and if it's also true that they use the same AI tactics as the Expert NPCs but simply have access to only the first four decks, then it boils down to paying careful attention to what they do from game to game, so you can start to predict what they are most likely to do and hopefully figure out how to use their priorities against them and manipulating them.

What I do know, back from one of the times a few years ago when the AI was changed, is that you must be careful about how you react to the NPC's moves, because (for instance) you don't want to fall into the "trap" of spamming the Crow patron back and forth with the NPC if they've got better money cards than you do-- it's better to leave the Crow patron flipped in the NPC's favor so they can't use it again.

The same goes with other patrons and tactics-- be careful how you react to your opponent's moves; don't start reacting from a sense of panic, because that's when you're most likely to start making bad moves that cost you the game.

I find that Proficient NPCs are significantly easier on average than Novice ones, regardless of patrons, ever since that AI change a while back where Novice NPCs refuse to use the tactics ZOS teaches the player in the tutorial. Novice NPCs are happy to engage with patrons they can't choose - it's just that they can't put them on the board themselves.

Novice NPCs are actually more likely to begin flipping patrons in my matches, whereas both Novice and Proficient will tend to engage in a rather Pavlovian tug-of-war if you touch the patron first, especially with Orgnum and Ansei.

If Hlaalu is put on the board, I find that NPCs will often self-sabotage by burning their cards frequently - and not usually the optimal ones or at the optimal times. They're happy to help beat themselves that way. It's not a guaranteed win, but it makes games easier, in my experience.

DoofusMax

I'll mostly agree that Zerith-var's major rapport triggers are ill-chosen, although not because the Novice AI is all that hard to beat (I probably beat Novice three or four times out of five and I'm a reasonably lousy player). My objections are mostly that both rapport-boosters are problematic for a lot of players.

Base-game-only players can't do ToT because they must have access to High Isle. So not only is the companion paywalled for non-subscribers, but one of their big rapport boosts (and companion checklist items) is also paywalled for non-subscribers. While I generally dislike ToT (I dislike Gwent, Caravan, and Pazaak, too, so I'm not picking on ToT just to be picking on it), I'm not going to begrudge those who do but I'm very unlikely to trot over to Gonfalon Bay for a daily until my inner completionist forces the issue. At least I have that option, which is more than can be said for base-game-only players who might have bought Zerith-var for crowns or let their ESO Plus go away without doing a ToT daily first.

The Elsweyr Defense Force daily is available to base-game players, but it has a couple of issues when it comes to story sequencing. For those who want to strictly follow release-order, they won't hit that until completing the Daedric War arc (and probably Murkmire, but that's kind of its own thing). I'm personally very lax when it comes to release order, but I do try to keep story arcs together. Because of that, I have not had characters do that prologue quest until they were ready to go mess around in Elsweyr (which means three out of nine characters). So that's six characters doing the prologue for a chapter they aren't going to be messing with anytime soon in order to unlock a daily that they wouldn't be doing anyway (the rewards aren't anything to write home about and the quest-giver isn't what I'd call "proximate" to a wayshrine). Considering that he has a small boost for Dark Anchors and a somewhat smaller one for killing undead and dro-m'Athra, they could have just gone with Fighters Guild like they did with Mirri.

Taril

DoofusMax wrote: »

So that's six characters doing the prologue for a chapter they aren't going to be messing with anytime soon in order to unlock a daily that they wouldn't be doing anyway (the rewards aren't anything to write home about and the quest-giver isn't what I'd call "proximate" to a wayshrine).

Though, it's not like it's necessary to max rapport on all characters. Heck, you only need to max rapport once for the achievement and that's it.

Unless you're slowly grinding out companion experience the hard way, by playing multiple characters and want that extra exp bonus from high rapport, there's no actual benefit to grinding out rapport on multiple characters.

Really the only notable thing with Zerith is the ToT daily for his Favour achievement (Which could be a prelude to a High Isle give away - Though then there would be the concern with pushing people towards ToT and the fact that one of the ToT decks is locked behind West Weald which isn't even accessible with ESO+)

DenverRalphy

All 3 of the NPC ToT opponent levels give more than ample opportunity to beat them. Heck, even if you only know the game at a mediocre skill level, quite often you can often spot what appears to be the AI player intentionally tanking a move.

If you're playing novice, just let the AI turn the Crow patron early in the game, then let it scoop up all the Crow cards that generate coin while preventing it from acquiring the few that generate power. It'll spend entirely too much effort into gaining mountains of coin, and no way to convert it into power.

freespirit

Ok so I have played ToT since its release but have only recently started to play on a secondary account.

Atm I only have access to novice npc's and the four base decks...... ofc I do know how to play so might have a bit of an advantage there, however to me they seem as stupid as they ever were and in some situations even more stupid, if that is even possible??

They cannot resist the Crow Paatron but in situations where they could end the game and completely destroy me they do someting stupid like sacrifice a high value card for a two coin one.

I've lost count of the times I should've lost but the npc had a total brain fart!!

Op stick with it, try watching what cards they have and if they keep them, you'll eventually spot their idiosyncrasy's and be able to win 99% of matches! 💕

DoofusMax

Taril wrote: »

Unless you're slowly grinding out companion experience the hard way, by playing multiple characters and want that extra exp bonus from high rapport, there's no actual benefit to grinding out rapport on multiple characters.

This is true, but ... (there's always one of those) ... all characters who have a companion must reach maximum rapport with them. Personal rule. Mostly likely inner completionist speaking (or OCD - either explanation works), but even with the companion perks unlocked, the companion isn't "done" until personal rapport is maxed.

I'm not going to hold my breath on a High Isle giveaway, btw. I could maybe see Firesong (like Murkmire, Clockwork City, or Thieves Guild), but not a chapter.

disky

virtus753 wrote: »

If Hlaalu is put on the board, I find that NPCs will often self-sabotage by burning their cards frequently - and not usually the optimal ones or at the optimal times. They're happy to help beat themselves that way. It's not a guaranteed win, but it makes games easier, in my experience.

I really wish the AI had a better understanding of the importance of certain cards and how to strategize. I've posted multiple times in the ToT forum about how it's possible for the NPC opponents to discard their entire deck using discard abilities in decks like Red Eagle, with screenshots, and I think they finally addressed that because it doesn't seem to happen as much as it used to. But I still don't know if the implementation was adequate because NPCs still discard very valuable cards, or the wrong cards when they have better choices, even if they're not discarding all of them.

I feel like there needs to be a tag system within the AI that helps it to understand priority for that kind of thing. If it exists now, the AI doesn't seem to be using it. It would go a long way toward making NPC behavior feel more realistic and engaging.

disky

DoofusMax wrote: »

I'm not going to hold my breath on a High Isle giveaway, btw. I could maybe see Firesong (like Murkmire, Clockwork City, or Thieves Guild), but not a chapter.

I really hope they do The Reach. It's the only DLC story zone I need.

Aggrovious

Did you play an expert NPC or a novice? Or are you talking about the NPCs upstairs?

Hapexamendios

You have to play and win tribute to gain his favor? That just sucks. I couldn't even beat the guy in the tutorial quest. Do not want this crappy have connected to other in game achievements or leads.

spartaxoxo

disky wrote: »

This is good advice. Not to criticize but sometimes I wonder how people are playing the game, because I just don't feel the same friction that others do when playing against the AI.

One real human opponent destroyed all but 3 of their 1 coin cards and never converted any of them into 2 coin cards. I eventually let them have a good 3 coin card just so they could play.

Ilumia

I quite enjoy tot, against the AI, I'm too nervous to play against people.
I can see that people feel really strongly about avoiding it though, and it sucks having to do it in that case.
When I did the tutorial and was leveling up half a year after tot came out, the novice difficulty was really easy, has zos improved their ai too? If they have I don't think that's a good idea. Improve proficient and expert as much as possible, but easy does need to be perfectly beginner friendly.
If it is only one match that HAS to be won to complete the achievement, there are some great guide videos on the basics on yt. It wouldn't have to take very long and is a small hurdle before you can turn your back completely on tot.

Juomuuri

I'm still unable to defeat novice NPCs after ZOS' several AI buffs on them. I was comfortable playing against them in 2022 but I ended up having long breaks from the game and now I can't even do the ToT questline because of the difficulty!

Ilumia

Juomuuri wrote: »

I'm still unable to defeat novice NPCs after ZOS' several AI buffs on them. I was comfortable playing against them in 2022 but I ended up having long breaks from the game and now I can't even do the ToT questline because of the difficulty!

That's not a great change, they should make the novice npc like it was back in 2022. Otherwise what's the point of having 3 difficulties for npc's. Please keep improving expert npc's, but novice difficulty should be as it was, to make it available for as many people as possible, and for people starting out to learn tot without too much frustration if it takes a bit to get the hang of.

ApoAlaia

I had to resort to the same 'workaround' as @Juomuuri and politely ask a friend if she could help.

Just for the 'favor' mind you (a favor for a favor?), I can do the rapport at 'half speed' if that means I don't have to touch ToT again.

Originally I thought I'd play it at least to unlock the dye etc. but ultimately decided against it; I already engage on PvP (which is a joy vacuum for me) for that reason, I didn't (and still don't) need another source of anti-fun.

Yet here we are, having had to engage with the system whether I wanted to or not. Thank you for actively detracting from the fun potential of the game I guess?

PrincessOfThieves

Juomuuri wrote: »

I'm still unable to defeat novice NPCs after ZOS' several AI buffs on them. I was comfortable playing against them in 2022 but I ended up having long breaks from the game and now I can't even do the ToT questline because of the difficulty!

I agree. I can beat them most of the time, but it's not a great experience and takes a long time (since they made it so that npcs would not allow you to get a patron victory).
I don't understand this, really. Dungeons, arenas and trials have an easier mode, but for some reason easy mode is not allowed in ToT.

Aggrovious

Juomuuri wrote: »

I'm still unable to defeat novice NPCs after ZOS' several AI buffs on them. I was comfortable playing against them in 2022 but I ended up having long breaks from the game and now I can't even do the ToT questline because of the difficulty!

That is unfortunate. A tip to provide for you. Its all about power gaining and combos. Saint Pelin also has taunt agents that will slow down your opponent by directing power to them instead towards their prestige at end of turn. Cards like Archer's Volley and Armory can win you games because of the power gain. You can do a combo of using Shield Bearer to absorb power gaining and then use Grandmaster Delmene Hlaalu patreon ability to gain 6 prestige once its been hit. This will get you ahead and you can use gain alot of coins. Crows require combos and Psijic Loremaster Celarus is advance (I like the deck alot for the thinning out of cards).

If the AI picks the other decks, using Ansei Frandar Hunding or Red Eagle, King of the Reach patreon ability is strong with power gaining using Saint Pelin. In fact, I usually pick Ansei, because its strong.

I hope this helps.

JemadarofCaerSalis

disky wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

If Hlaalu is put on the board, I find that NPCs will often self-sabotage by burning their cards frequently - and not usually the optimal ones or at the optimal times. They're happy to help beat themselves that way. It's not a guaranteed win, but it makes games easier, in my experience.

I really wish the AI had a better understanding of the importance of certain cards and how to strategize. I've posted multiple times in the ToT forum about how it's possible for the NPC opponents to discard their entire deck using discard abilities in decks like Red Eagle, with screenshots, and I think they finally addressed that because it doesn't seem to happen as much as it used to. But I still don't know if the implementation was adequate because NPCs still discard very valuable cards, or the wrong cards when they have better choices, even if they're not discarding all of them.

I feel like there needs to be a tag system within the AI that helps it to understand priority for that kind of thing. If it exists now, the AI doesn't seem to be using it. It would go a long way toward making NPC behavior feel more realistic and engaging.

I was *very* disappointed when the NPC stopped discarding their entire deck... I thought it was funny and an easy and leisurely win.

Also, with regards to tips in general, one thing I haev noticed, if you have the Sorceror king Orignum (sorry if I messed that up completely, can't recall how to spell it), I have found 9 times out of 10, you *will* be fighting over that patron, because the NPC spams it and then they have all those cards that they start laying down that gives them prestige.

Necrotech_Master

i usually typically play against the novice npcs, very very rare i ever lose a match against them lol

i run the red eagle + rahjin patrons against them, it matters not at all what they pick

get -prestige rahjin cards, slow them down with bewilderments when needed

they still really do a lot of really dumb things like excessive use of removing cards from their deck (though not to the extent of removing every card in their deck) and they also frequently use the treasury on good cards

2 days ago when i did the tribute daily for zerith, the match with the npc they got a grand larceny and midnight raid and within 5 turns converted both to writs of coin using the treasury or removed them from their deck with hlaalu patron (think it was a combination of the 2)