[COMMUNITY POLL] What should Zenimax's policy towards "Any race, any alliance bundle" be?

BenTSG

Honestly it'd make sense to just have it put into the base game or something now. Back before One Tamriel, alliances actually had a *bit* more meaning by dictating the areas you started to play in, but now that everything is opened up the only thing it affects is PvP, so it should just be a free choice who to play for. Hell, maybe even make it so you've no alliance at all until you first go into Cyro/IC so new players don't have to worry about picking tje 'wrong' faction at the start when they finally decide to go there.

Sarannah

Niliu wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

As someone who also bought the Imperial deluxe pre-order edition when the game released(still have my molag bal statue), I think about the game before myself. Having new players getting shoved "You can't make this race because you have to pay first!" in the face upon starting to play, is a bad look for the game. This makes the game seem pay-to-win, which it completely isn't.

Besides that, that bundle doesn't make sense anymore since OneTamriel and is now so old that it should be free for everyone.

Not having any race/any alliance be free just looks bad to the outside world and new players who are interested in ESO.

That's not what pay to win means. Pay to win requires there to be an advantage.

"seem"

Estin

It should be free. The primary benefit it gave no longer exists, so you're really only using it for PvP where race doesn't matter. [snip]

[edited for bashing]

BelmontDrakul

I hope we got it for free in December dailies.

spartaxoxo

AzuraFan wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I don't think it's reasonable to expect things to remain the same price forever. Nor do I think we need to keep mistakes just because they have always been there before.

The thing they should do is what's best for the health of the game rather than being scared to give away items that cost money 10 years ago. I'd be okay for a refund of recent purchases though.

When they gave away the thieves guild DLC, Wrothgar DLC, and something else I'd bought, I was okay with it. But at some point, people have to pay for things. As for it being 10 years old, it isn't 10 years old for someone who shelled out crowns for it last week.

ZOS can't give away everything just because some people don't want to pay. I'd love to have one of the large manor houses in the base game that cost 13000 crowns or 1,300,000 gold (I'm a poor player). After all, they've been there forever, so hey, can you make them free?? Just kidding.

As for the health of the game, people might be hesitant to spend crowns if something they just paid for (remember the guy who bought the bundle last week?) is then given away to everyone.

Having said all that, I voted that I'd be fine putting it into the endeavor store so people can earn it in-game. I'm not okay with ZOS giving everything away because it's old and some people don't want to open their wallets to buy the stuff they want.

Any race, any alliance isn't everything. It's basic game functionality and not comparable to a house. It discourages new players instantly, giving the game a negative first impression. The last thing we need in a 10 year old game is something that makes a bad first impression on new players. This game is bleeding players and fixing the things that bother new and vet players should be considered important.

Cyrodiil performance fixes
Slider for Overland difficulty
New Arenas
Any race/alliance free
Summerset and Clockwork City become base game
And whatever other new player concerns that I can't think of

Taril

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Any race, any alliance isn't everything. It's basic game functionality and not comparable to a house. It discourages new players instantly, giving the game a negative first impression.

Any Race Any Alliance isn't that big a deal.

Ever since One Tamriel, it has very minor impact outside of Cyrodil/Imperial City.

Given that all it really changes outside of PvP teams, is where a few quests take place and where your charater's Harborage is.

Alliance choice doesn't lock you out of quests, it doesn't limit who you can play with, it barely even does anything to the Main Story which is the only non-PvP place it even pops up.

The paywalled Imperial race would do more for actually impacting new players, especially those that might have been fond of playing Imperial characters in other TES games.

Even more significantly, as my first comment in this thread noted, simply allowing people to queue for any faction for Cyro/IC would effetively make the entire "Any Race, Any Alliance" moot, as the only tangible reason to pick a specific alliance is to stack teams in those PvP areas. (With selectable factions on queue allowing more potential to create fairer teams than the ARAA utility. Heck, I know whenever I go into the under level 50 Cyro to do the intro quests most of the time 90% of the map is blue because of the heavily stacked team)

spartaxoxo

Taril wrote: »

Any Race Any Alliance isn't that big a deal.

Ever since One Tamriel, it has very minor impact outside of Cyrodil/Imperial City.

New players don't have the experience to know that. What they know is that they wanted to make a particular race/alliance and they can't. That is a negative first impression. The character creator is the very experience with the game. I also agree with you about Imperials and it should probably also be free.

Letting players make any race they want and have it join any alliance they want is a much better first experience.

spartaxoxo

People used to think this should have been a pre-order only bonus. But making it available for all was better for the health of the game. 9 years later, it is better for the health of the game to make it base game IMO

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/148749/should-any-race-in-any-alliance-be-in-the-crown-store

mdjessup4906

So many selfish people in here. Were the "u shud pay!!!ers" whining like this when vardendell was made base game? How about imperial city?

I buy every chapter when it comes out, then they started putting previous chapters in a bundle which makes then way cheaper for new players than it was for me. Do I care?

Uh no. Make everything free, what's it to us? Unless your an investor or something. Is zos even publicly traded? Idk.

Danikat

Taril wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Any race, any alliance isn't everything. It's basic game functionality and not comparable to a house. It discourages new players instantly, giving the game a negative first impression.

Any Race Any Alliance isn't that big a deal.

Ever since One Tamriel, it has very minor impact outside of Cyrodil/Imperial City.

Given that all it really changes outside of PvP teams, is where a few quests take place and where your charater's Harborage is.

Alliance choice doesn't lock you out of quests, it doesn't limit who you can play with, it barely even does anything to the Main Story which is the only non-PvP place it even pops up.

The paywalled Imperial race would do more for actually impacting new players, especially those that might have been fond of playing Imperial characters in other TES games.

Even more significantly, as my first comment in this thread noted, simply allowing people to queue for any faction for Cyro/IC would effetively make the entire "Any Race, Any Alliance" moot, as the only tangible reason to pick a specific alliance is to stack teams in those PvP areas. (With selectable factions on queue allowing more potential to create fairer teams than the ARAA utility. Heck, I know whenever I go into the under level 50 Cyro to do the intro quests most of the time 90% of the map is blue because of the heavily stacked team)

They'd also need to let you choose an alliance for the main story. That determines not only where the Harborage is located and where you're sent for main story quests but which alliance you're with for the end of the storyline and which NPCs you meet and work with.

Also where you can do the vampire and werewolf quest lines - you can be bitten by an infectious NPC in any alliance but have to go to your own to do the quest to make it permanent.

There might be other bits I've forgotten as well.

I'd love it if ZOS did update all that to be in-game choices, but I suspect it's simpler and therefore far more likely to make Any Race, Any Alliance part of the base game.

tomofhyrule

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Taril wrote: »

Any Race Any Alliance isn't that big a deal.

Ever since One Tamriel, it has very minor impact outside of Cyrodil/Imperial City.

New players don't have the experience to know that. What they know is that they wanted to make a particular race/alliance and they can't. That is a negative first impression. The character creator is the very experience with the game. I also agree with you about Imperials and it should probably also be free.

Letting players make any race they want and have it join any alliance they want is a much better first experience.

Devil's advocate: if we're gonna talk about the 'new player experience,' the game does make more sense if you're playing one of the races constituent to your alliance.

I know there are some characters (Captain Rana, for example) who have dialogue referring to you character being a specific race, but if you're not one of the races belonging to the 'right' alliance, then those dialogues don't appear. You may even end up with some awkward unacknowledged moments where a character disparages your race directly to your face because you're not 'supposed' to be that race.

It also depends on how much a player knows about the game. I knew when I started that I was going to play an Orc, but my story involved having a home in Skyrim and I did have to RP a few inconsistencies. I used my initial purchase Crowns to get that bundle immediately. But if someone is just coming in to play a Redguard without caring about what alliance they're in, then getting defaulted to DC is the most sensible option storywise.

Danikat

tomofhyrule wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Taril wrote: »

Any Race Any Alliance isn't that big a deal.

Ever since One Tamriel, it has very minor impact outside of Cyrodil/Imperial City.

New players don't have the experience to know that. What they know is that they wanted to make a particular race/alliance and they can't. That is a negative first impression. The character creator is the very experience with the game. I also agree with you about Imperials and it should probably also be free.

Letting players make any race they want and have it join any alliance they want is a much better first experience.

Devil's advocate: if we're gonna talk about the 'new player experience,' the game does make more sense if you're playing one of the races constituent to your alliance.

I know there are some characters (Captain Rana, for example) who have dialogue referring to you character being a specific race, but if you're not one of the races belonging to the 'right' alliance, then those dialogues don't appear. You may even end up with some awkward unacknowledged moments where a character disparages your race directly to your face because you're not 'supposed' to be that race.

It also depends on how much a player knows about the game. I knew when I started that I was going to play an Orc, but my story involved having a home in Skyrim and I did have to RP a few inconsistencies. I used my initial purchase Crowns to get that bundle immediately. But if someone is just coming in to play a Redguard without caring about what alliance they're in, then getting defaulted to DC is the most sensible option storywise.

That kind of thing is exactly why when I'm new to an RPG setting I usually end up deleting and remaking my characters a few times. At first I don't understand the choices and when I do I inevitably find the game funnelled me into ones I don't want.

Ok I wouldn't have known right away if I hadn't played previous TES games but I can guarentee as soon as I understood the Alliances I'd have wanted to make a khajiit who left Dominion territory and joined the Covenant* and if I was faced with an extra purchase to be allowed to make that choice - having already seen khajiit NPCs in Covenant towns - that would be the point where I rethink if this game is worth my time and money or if I want to quit now before I find out how many other ways it's going to mess me around to make a profit.

Again I know that's not an entirely fair assessment, but if I was new and quickly went from "play how you want" to "oh, how you want to play will cost you extra" I'd fully expect that to be representative of the entire rest of the experience.

*I know I'd have made that choice because she's the first character I did make in ESO and basically the same character I made in Morrowind - my first TES game - once I understood the lore.

(Honestly it's lucky that when I bought ESO, almost a year after it came out, I got a pre-order copy which was somehow still sat on a shelf until that moment, so I had Any Race, Any Alliance from the start and could make the characters I wanted right away.)

TaSheen

tomofhyrule wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Taril wrote: »

Any Race Any Alliance isn't that big a deal.

Ever since One Tamriel, it has very minor impact outside of Cyrodil/Imperial City.

New players don't have the experience to know that. What they know is that they wanted to make a particular race/alliance and they can't. That is a negative first impression. The character creator is the very experience with the game. I also agree with you about Imperials and it should probably also be free.

Letting players make any race they want and have it join any alliance they want is a much better first experience.

Devil's advocate: if we're gonna talk about the 'new player experience,' the game does make more sense if you're playing one of the races constituent to your alliance.

I know there are some characters (Captain Rana, for example) who have dialogue referring to you character being a specific race, but if you're not one of the races belonging to the 'right' alliance, then those dialogues don't appear. You may even end up with some awkward unacknowledged moments where a character disparages your race directly to your face because you're not 'supposed' to be that race.

It also depends on how much a player knows about the game. I knew when I started that I was going to play an Orc, but my story involved having a home in Skyrim and I did have to RP a few inconsistencies. I used my initial purchase Crowns to get that bundle immediately. But if someone is just coming in to play a Redguard without caring about what alliance they're in, then getting defaulted to DC is the most sensible option storywise.

I bought it from the first - because I knew I wasn't going to be interested in the Pact. I also knew the Covenant WAS where my interest lay, and later, I gave space to AD as well - though those characters generally don't get as much play as my DC ones do.l

BelmontDrakul

TaSheen wrote: »

I bought it from the first - because I knew I wasn't going to be interested in the Pact. I also knew the Covenant WAS where my interest lay, and later, I gave space to AD as well - though those characters generally don't get as much play as my DC ones do.l

I can understand what exactly you mean, I hope people can experience any alliance they want for free afterwards.

wolfie1.0.

Zos already gave away 1st year of dlc in daily rewards. So imo put this and imperial race access in daily login rewards.

Nerouyn

fizzylu wrote: »

Funny that you mention that since more and more WoW players desire for the factions to be dissolved. Just because something was made a certain way years ago doesn't mean it's good for it to stay that way.

I find this fascinating because I've wondered over the many years that I've been MMO'ing - since slightly before WOW - if "war" has generally become less appealing.

Possibly in part due to gaming itself, which is a very international affair.

Amottica

I would suggest the premise is incorrect. The factions did not lose their value. 1T merely made it easier to play with friends—nothing more and nothing less. The factions are still the factions, and their related races did not change.

Anyone who wants Any Race/Any Alliance can pony up like everyone else has.

Unfortunately, the poll is useless for Zenimax to look at due to the extremely heavy basis. I expect I do not need to explain that sentence.

Taril

Nerouyn wrote: »

I find this fascinating because I've wondered over the many years that I've been MMO'ing - since slightly before WOW - if "war" has generally become less appealing.

Possibly in part due to gaming itself, which is a very international affair.

If you want to get into the nitty gritty, it's likely due to the nature of what made "War" appealing in the first place, which is propaganda. The "Us" vs "Them" distinction and overall dehumanizing of the enemy.

In terms of video games, there's still plenty of appeal to "War" - Specifically when it comes to universal enemies like Zombies, N*zis or hostile aliens/demons. (Interestingly, there's still evidence of such fervor in real life too when it comes to certain groups. I was perusing Youtube today and came across a video about Somali Pirates and the comment section was vastly overwhelming focused on bemoaning the US Navy for using non-lethal approaches to deal with pirates)

War between other players... Is less appealing. Since the "Them" distinction isn't quite there. Especially with the overall breakdown of the lines given stuff like shared questing areas and cross-factional NPCs on top of the eternal stalemate that removes any sense of victory (Even if the story includes things that are a "Victory" for one side, the fact that the overal "War" remains unchanged negates its impact)

WoW has been notably terrible for such things with things like Thrall, who was once the Orc's Warchief and leader of the Horde itself, becoming BFF's with Varian and the Alliance races... This along with the various neutral factions that feature NPC's from both Alliance and Horde races (And the whole Mist of Pandaria expansion and the option for Pandaren to be either Horde or Alliance)

In general, it's hard to make a war between players compelling. The basis for what makes war appealing simply isn't feasible to maintain whilst maintaining equality for all players.

Which is generally what makes Eve Online stand out, due to the equality is maintained by having a hands off approach. It's up to players themselves to create their "Factions" and to initiate wars over resources. Which is part of the appeal of the game, that you get these large corporations (Guilds) duking it out on a massive scale with tangible victories and defeats (Since you have to repurchase ships and upgrades and such if yours gets destroyed)

fizzylu

Nerouyn wrote: »

I find this fascinating because I've wondered over the many years that I've been MMO'ing - since slightly before WOW - if "war" has generally become less appealing.

I do think the concept of a game being built around the players being at war with each other has fallen out of favor with gamers. Be it from unnecessary restrictions like not having access to certain areas of the game, not being able to do certain content with friends since they might have chosen another faction, races being faction specific, "why does that faction get this and we don't", cosmetic appearances, and even just issues like the tension/discourse it can create within the game.
New World especially was a newer example of faction based gameplay going extremely wrong. All it did was put some players at a disadvantage and make their time within the game harder, even players who didn't even want to be involved in the faction PvP, while serving pretty much no purpose outside of being a mechanic for the games PvP.

Gamers today really just want to play how they want when they want, and having an ongoing war between the player characters definitely impedes that in some ways.

Danikat

I suspect it's not that war or PvP has become less popular but that more MMOs are trying to move beyond only appealing to the players who are interested in that. There's always been lots of different things people like about games and different reasons they like playing them.

War games, and competitive, combat themed games generally, are still some of the most popular (for example the top 3 most played games on Steam right now are Counterstrike 2, PUBG and Dota 2), but there's also a lot of people who aren't interested in that and if it's possible to make a game that will appeal to more than just that group why wouldn't you? Especially if you're making an MMO which needs a lot of players to function properly.

I don't think this is even new within ESO. One of the first big changes I remember (which might have been during the betas, if not then shortly after release) was the addition of Cadwell's Silver and Gold, to address exactly this problem - players were annoyed that each character was restricted to only 1/3 of the game, even if they could still get to level 50 and get all the item sets etc. they needed they still wanted to be able to actually play the whole game on each character, which clearly the developers had not expected or they'd have built it in from the start.

Right from the first time I was on this forum (during one of the public betas) there were people saying they didn't care about faction choice and just wanted to be able to explore the whole world and play with their friends.

Importantly that doesn't mean not being interested in PVP, it just means wanting the choice of what you do and which character/s you do it with.

Taril

Danikat wrote: »

I suspect it's not that war or PvP has become less popular but that more MMOs are trying to move beyond only appealing to the players who are interested in that.

The thing is that "PvP" =/= "War"

Plenty of PvP happens without necessitating "War". Like the popular games you mention such as PUBG, CS, Dota 2 (Among others like LoL, WoT(WS/P), Fortnite etc) aren't about "War" (Yes, technically the theme of CS is about "War on Terror" but it's mechanically not a war and both teams play both sides during a match anyway)

War is about creating a divide between the players, based on some form of "Faction" whereby players represent the faction and seek to best other factions.

It's "War" that is not particularly popular. Due to the inherent limitations it enforces, such as the inability to play with whomever you like, faction imbalances, restrictions on character creation and/or playable content.

It's these limitations that put more of a damper on people's overall view of "War" designs in MMO's. While PvP continues to be a perfectly successful market.

Outside of "War", there is no need for factions. PvP can be done without it. ESO does it just fine with BG's, you just stick people into teams and say "Go at it" and that simply works. MMO's that don't feature factions do it (GW2 does it with putting different servers against each other in the form of WvWvW for example - Though this can often result in similar issues to actual factions).

"War" designs tend to have all the disadvantages that their limitations provide but no real upsides. Like, sure you represent your faction as you win a BG or claim an objective in some open world area... Which has 0 consequence at all. But beyond that it just doesn't provide anything.

Hence why it's so common for people to wish for the disolution of arbitrary factions. Since it has no negative consequences due to the lack of upsides in the systems. While things like One Tamriel show the upsides of freeing people from unnecessary limitations.

Wuduwasa13

Given how quickly they’ve been sliding down the ladder of success in recent times they ought to be making available for free as much as possible (including ARAA) to current eso plus subscribers, by way of thanks for not jumping ship despite the game being the most stagnant it has been in many years.

And sort that bloody in combat bug out once and for all.

SkaiFaith

Imperials are my favourite. My first character was a Khajiit in Ebonheart Pact. Both features should be free IMHO.
I remember hating having to open the wallet a second time before even starting to play - I had to join friends that already were in EP and I wanted to be Khajiit so "I was forced"; I remember thinking it was not cool at all.

I'm not much into PvP but I think some players definitely choose the faction based on "taste" without considering the "advantage" aspect: a Skyrim player will most likely create an EP Nord as first character - I'm not saying EVERY player, but likely a lot.

TaSheen

SkaiFaith wrote: »

Imperials are my favourite. My first character was a Khajiit in Ebonheart Pact. Both features should be free IMHO.
I remember hating having to open the wallet a second time before even starting to play - I had to join friends that already were in EP and I wanted to be Khajiit so "I was forced"; I remember thinking it was not cool at all.

I'm not much into PvP but I think some players definitely choose the faction based on "taste" without considering the "advantage" aspect: a Skyrim player will most likely create an EP Nord as first character - I'm not saying EVERY player, but likely a lot.

Heh. I played hell out of Skyrim (still playing it today, AAMOF). I've never played a Nord, Argonian or Orc in Skyrim (or any of the other single player titles where those races were available) , or a Nord, Argonian or Orc in ESO. There are some races I just can't deal with at all....

BelmontDrakul

Well, Christmas is approaching. I am still waiting a little gift by Zenimax.

Mad_Catz

Why are these kids (so much whining... I doubt it's people over 25) going on and on about "alliance swapping"??! They're talking about (potentially) making "Any Race, Any Alliance" free, for when you CREATE a new character!! They're not talking about making "Alliance Swapping" free (they should double the price for that, if anything)!

Someone might want to be a High Elf, but not be in the Aldmeri Dominion.

Maybe pay attention to the question (poll), instead of going off the deep end!!

BTW, Zenimax... we're STILL waiting for the option to change "CLASSES" for our characters. Even if I have to level-up my new class abilities from level 1 (which makes sense)... I'm ready to spend the Crowns for it. Also... PLEASE make it so we can change our appearance with Endeavors, OR with in-game gold. It's hugely annoying to spend half an hour to tweak our character's look (and pay lots of Crowns to do it)... then when you see your character in the game, it doesn't look like it did in the appearance editor... because the interface is a bit off or something! Maybe an in-game beauty parlor by a witch who charges gold to change one's appearance (on a side note, this could also remove a bounty, regardless of the amount - practical, if your bounty is really high (if it costs 5000 gold for the "facial"), not so much, if someone spotted you stealing a sweet roll).

DreamyLu

Should be part of base game after all those years. That's usually how it goes with such features as a MMORPG is ageing.