Werewolf noses should pull players out of stealth

huskandhunger

I want to be a sentry werewolf 👀

Tommy_The_Gun

ViggyBoi wrote: »

werewolves cant sneak, but the sneaking animations exist in the game. As a trade off for that, when you start to sneak, entering a "hunting" mode where you have like a 8 or so meter detection radius feel both thematically flavorful and another way to incorporate more into the werewolf kit that literally every other player has access to. Sneaking is like a toggle, you dont recover stam when sneaking and have reduced movement speed so there's somewhat of a trade off. Of course the biggest one is your inability to sneak yourself so I agree it would be fair to have some easily accessible anti sneak counterplay that doesnt cost you your potion.

It sounds very nice "on paper", but think how it would work in practice.

It would be same as with detection potions that for whatever reason allow you to detect invisible/stealthed players, while still allowing to stay invisible/stealthed yourself. Non of the other detection stuff does that. If a detection skill is casted - it interrupts invisibility/stealth. And this is for the most part how it should work. You either look for players in stealth or remain hidden yourself. Detection potions are considered "broken" not because of detection range, but because they allow to still remain unseen. Those Potions for the most part should be "mirrored" invisibility potions. Those force crouch stealth on you (and if you do anything that would normally interupts invisibility, the potion is wasted). Detection potions basically should force you out of stealth when used.

Currently detection potions & how those work results in a very frustrating & toxic situations where if you are detected, from your perspective - you are detected "by nothing".

Hence why I think that having a "sneak mode" that allows you to stay hidden & detect at the same time would be terrible idea.

I do agree however that WW needs both the ability to detect invisible targets & the ability to sneak. But definitely not at the same time.

Avran_Sylt

NB Vamp ganker here that has a love/hate relationship with detect pots.

Letting WW's be able to enter stealth via crouch (normal ult loss, hircine wants you doing battle, not sneaking) I'm down with.

Tacking on an additional 3m of stealth detection radius also seems thematic.

Anything longer range than that, or persistent, no, I wouldn't really be a fan of. Typically if you rely on stealth, that means that getting caught out is usually not a good thing.

As far as detection methods like flare or magelight, I could see a variant of Roar that causes detection for a short duration (to alleviate roar spam).

Avran_Sylt

Erickson9610 wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

I also don't think there is anything wrong with having hard counters things in games.

You know how players typically go with Vampire when making Stealth builds, because of passives like Dark Stalker and Strike from the Shadows?


A player can:

1. Choose Vampire to gain Stealth bonuses. They can still use human form abilities (Expert Hunter, Magelight, or Revealing Flare) to counter Stealthed players.
2. Remain non-cursed to not gain Vampire's Stealth bonuses but still retain the human form counters to Stealthed players.
3. Choose Werewolf to lose the ability to Stealth and lose access to human form abilities which counter Stealthed players.

Choosing Vampire for a Stealth build is a no-brainer. You can put up with the drawbacks of Stage 1 Vampire for the Dark Stalker passive, which makes Stealth gameplay much easier for a Vampire than for a non-cursed character. You would never go with Werewolf for a Stealth build because they lack the ability to Stealth in the first place. Werewolf also can't reveal Stealthed players the way non-cursed and Vampire characters can.

---

Since Werewolf is at such a disadvantage, and they're mutually exclusive from Vampire and the human form, what if Werewolf had a hard counter to Vampire's Stealth abilities?

If Vampire specializes in Stealth, then Werewolf should specialize in Stealth Detection. Of course, that's not to say that Werewolf shouldn't be allowed to Stealth themselves — after all, Vampire characters can utilize Stealth Detection skills despite specializing in Stealth.

So, allowing Werewolf to sneak and giving them some unique form of Stealth Detection would make Werewolf an option when considering a build that leans more heavily into Stealth Detection than into Stealth; in other words, the inverse of Vampire. That would make remaining non-cursed the "middle of the road" option to take between Stealth and Stealth Detection.

WW got 30% increased max Stam and 18% increased wep/spell damage. Those images of some vamp stat buffs are just "feel good" compared to WW's raw stat increases.

Blood Scion for Vamp isn't comparable given it has a limited duration, but WW form can last indefinitely.

Maybe talk about passive buffs you'd like to see while outside of WW form?

Erickson9610

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

I also don't think there is anything wrong with having hard counters things in games.

You know how players typically go with Vampire when making Stealth builds, because of passives like Dark Stalker and Strike from the Shadows?


A player can:

1. Choose Vampire to gain Stealth bonuses. They can still use human form abilities (Expert Hunter, Magelight, or Revealing Flare) to counter Stealthed players.
2. Remain non-cursed to not gain Vampire's Stealth bonuses but still retain the human form counters to Stealthed players.
3. Choose Werewolf to lose the ability to Stealth and lose access to human form abilities which counter Stealthed players.

Choosing Vampire for a Stealth build is a no-brainer. You can put up with the drawbacks of Stage 1 Vampire for the Dark Stalker passive, which makes Stealth gameplay much easier for a Vampire than for a non-cursed character. You would never go with Werewolf for a Stealth build because they lack the ability to Stealth in the first place. Werewolf also can't reveal Stealthed players the way non-cursed and Vampire characters can.

---

Since Werewolf is at such a disadvantage, and they're mutually exclusive from Vampire and the human form, what if Werewolf had a hard counter to Vampire's Stealth abilities?

If Vampire specializes in Stealth, then Werewolf should specialize in Stealth Detection. Of course, that's not to say that Werewolf shouldn't be allowed to Stealth themselves — after all, Vampire characters can utilize Stealth Detection skills despite specializing in Stealth.

So, allowing Werewolf to sneak and giving them some unique form of Stealth Detection would make Werewolf an option when considering a build that leans more heavily into Stealth Detection than into Stealth; in other words, the inverse of Vampire. That would make remaining non-cursed the "middle of the road" option to take between Stealth and Stealth Detection.

WW got 30% increased max Stam and 18% increased wep/spell damage. Those images of some vamp stat buffs are just "feel good" compared to WW's raw stat increases.

Blood Scion for Vamp isn't comparable given it has a limited duration, but WW form can last indefinitely.

Maybe talk about passive buffs you'd like to see while outside of WW form?

Werewolf should never receive any passive buffs (or debuffs) outside of form, since they cannot use their Werewolf skills outside of form. The passive Stamina Recovery while Werewolf Transformation is slotted requires you to use an Ultimate slot, which enables you to transform into a Werewolf at all.

We want Werewolves to actually transform. Vampires get passives and drawbacks at all times because you can use Vampire abilities alongside your regular abilities without the need to transform.

In fact, that's the reason Blood Scion and the Vampire passives aren't nearly as strong as Werewolf Transformation and its passives — Werewolf is an entire subclass, whereas Vampire is complementary to any normal class. You can pair Vampire's sneak passives really well with the stealth abilities of Nightblade, and use Vampire abilities nicely alongside Dragonknight abilities, but the same can't be said for Werewolf. Werewolf gets damage buffs because you can't apply those buffs to your non-Werewolf abilities.

ViggyBoi

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

ViggyBoi wrote: »

werewolves cant sneak, but the sneaking animations exist in the game. As a trade off for that, when you start to sneak, entering a "hunting" mode where you have like a 8 or so meter detection radius feel both thematically flavorful and another way to incorporate more into the werewolf kit that literally every other player has access to. Sneaking is like a toggle, you dont recover stam when sneaking and have reduced movement speed so there's somewhat of a trade off. Of course the biggest one is your inability to sneak yourself so I agree it would be fair to have some easily accessible anti sneak counterplay that doesnt cost you your potion.

It sounds very nice "on paper", but think how it would work in practice.

It would be same as with detection potions that for whatever reason allow you to detect invisible/stealthed players, while still allowing to stay invisible/stealthed yourself. Non of the other detection stuff does that. If a detection skill is casted - it interrupts invisibility/stealth. And this is for the most part how it should work. You either look for players in stealth or remain hidden yourself. Detection potions are considered "broken" not because of detection range, but because they allow to still remain unseen. Those Potions for the most part should be "mirrored" invisibility potions. Those force crouch stealth on you (and if you do anything that would normally interupts invisibility, the potion is wasted). Detection potions basically should force you out of stealth when used.

Currently detection potions & how those work results in a very frustrating & toxic situations where if you are detected, from your perspective - you are detected "by nothing".

Hence why I think that having a "sneak mode" that allows you to stay hidden & detect at the same time would be terrible idea.

I do agree however that WW needs both the ability to detect invisible targets & the ability to sneak. But definitely not at the same time.

I guess I didn't phrase what i meant very clearly. I meant this could be a trade off as in werewolves retain their inability to sneak or stealth in exchange for being able to use their "sneak" to counter stealth. I'm not saying werewolves should be able to go hidden while having on demand detection, that's a bit too much. But a "class" not being able to interact with a universal core mechanic having a completely unique system that they use to interact with it I do think would be interesting. Trade offs only from my original comment, hope that clears things up.

Avran_Sylt

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

I also don't think there is anything wrong with having hard counters things in games.

You know how players typically go with Vampire when making Stealth builds, because of passives like Dark Stalker and Strike from the Shadows?


A player can:

1. Choose Vampire to gain Stealth bonuses. They can still use human form abilities (Expert Hunter, Magelight, or Revealing Flare) to counter Stealthed players.
2. Remain non-cursed to not gain Vampire's Stealth bonuses but still retain the human form counters to Stealthed players.
3. Choose Werewolf to lose the ability to Stealth and lose access to human form abilities which counter Stealthed players.

Choosing Vampire for a Stealth build is a no-brainer. You can put up with the drawbacks of Stage 1 Vampire for the Dark Stalker passive, which makes Stealth gameplay much easier for a Vampire than for a non-cursed character. You would never go with Werewolf for a Stealth build because they lack the ability to Stealth in the first place. Werewolf also can't reveal Stealthed players the way non-cursed and Vampire characters can.

---

Since Werewolf is at such a disadvantage, and they're mutually exclusive from Vampire and the human form, what if Werewolf had a hard counter to Vampire's Stealth abilities?

If Vampire specializes in Stealth, then Werewolf should specialize in Stealth Detection. Of course, that's not to say that Werewolf shouldn't be allowed to Stealth themselves — after all, Vampire characters can utilize Stealth Detection skills despite specializing in Stealth.

So, allowing Werewolf to sneak and giving them some unique form of Stealth Detection would make Werewolf an option when considering a build that leans more heavily into Stealth Detection than into Stealth; in other words, the inverse of Vampire. That would make remaining non-cursed the "middle of the road" option to take between Stealth and Stealth Detection.

WW got 30% increased max Stam and 18% increased wep/spell damage. Those images of some vamp stat buffs are just "feel good" compared to WW's raw stat increases.

Blood Scion for Vamp isn't comparable given it has a limited duration, but WW form can last indefinitely.

Maybe talk about passive buffs you'd like to see while outside of WW form?

Werewolf should never receive any passive buffs (or debuffs) outside of form, since they cannot use their Werewolf skills outside of form. The passive Stamina Recovery while Werewolf Transformation is slotted requires you to use an Ultimate slot, which enables you to transform into a Werewolf at all.

We want Werewolves to actually transform. Vampires get passives and drawbacks at all times because you can use Vampire abilities alongside your regular abilities without the need to transform.

In fact, that's the reason Blood Scion and the Vampire passives aren't nearly as strong as Werewolf Transformation and its passives — Werewolf is an entire subclass, whereas Vampire is complementary to any normal class. You can pair Vampire's sneak passives really well with the stealth abilities of Nightblade, and use Vampire abilities nicely alongside Dragonknight abilities, but the same can't be said for Werewolf. Werewolf gets damage buffs because you can't apply those buffs to your non-Werewolf abilities.

So also remove all set, item, and gear bonuses as well? Keep it entirely encapsulated?

kyle.wilson

If werewolves can pull people from stealth, we should be able to make scent bombs for counterplay.

Dojohoda

Would these be melee noses or ranged noses?

Erickson9610

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

I also don't think there is anything wrong with having hard counters things in games.

You know how players typically go with Vampire when making Stealth builds, because of passives like Dark Stalker and Strike from the Shadows?


A player can:

1. Choose Vampire to gain Stealth bonuses. They can still use human form abilities (Expert Hunter, Magelight, or Revealing Flare) to counter Stealthed players.
2. Remain non-cursed to not gain Vampire's Stealth bonuses but still retain the human form counters to Stealthed players.
3. Choose Werewolf to lose the ability to Stealth and lose access to human form abilities which counter Stealthed players.

Choosing Vampire for a Stealth build is a no-brainer. You can put up with the drawbacks of Stage 1 Vampire for the Dark Stalker passive, which makes Stealth gameplay much easier for a Vampire than for a non-cursed character. You would never go with Werewolf for a Stealth build because they lack the ability to Stealth in the first place. Werewolf also can't reveal Stealthed players the way non-cursed and Vampire characters can.

---

Since Werewolf is at such a disadvantage, and they're mutually exclusive from Vampire and the human form, what if Werewolf had a hard counter to Vampire's Stealth abilities?

If Vampire specializes in Stealth, then Werewolf should specialize in Stealth Detection. Of course, that's not to say that Werewolf shouldn't be allowed to Stealth themselves — after all, Vampire characters can utilize Stealth Detection skills despite specializing in Stealth.

So, allowing Werewolf to sneak and giving them some unique form of Stealth Detection would make Werewolf an option when considering a build that leans more heavily into Stealth Detection than into Stealth; in other words, the inverse of Vampire. That would make remaining non-cursed the "middle of the road" option to take between Stealth and Stealth Detection.

WW got 30% increased max Stam and 18% increased wep/spell damage. Those images of some vamp stat buffs are just "feel good" compared to WW's raw stat increases.

Blood Scion for Vamp isn't comparable given it has a limited duration, but WW form can last indefinitely.

Maybe talk about passive buffs you'd like to see while outside of WW form?

Werewolf should never receive any passive buffs (or debuffs) outside of form, since they cannot use their Werewolf skills outside of form. The passive Stamina Recovery while Werewolf Transformation is slotted requires you to use an Ultimate slot, which enables you to transform into a Werewolf at all.

We want Werewolves to actually transform. Vampires get passives and drawbacks at all times because you can use Vampire abilities alongside your regular abilities without the need to transform.

In fact, that's the reason Blood Scion and the Vampire passives aren't nearly as strong as Werewolf Transformation and its passives — Werewolf is an entire subclass, whereas Vampire is complementary to any normal class. You can pair Vampire's sneak passives really well with the stealth abilities of Nightblade, and use Vampire abilities nicely alongside Dragonknight abilities, but the same can't be said for Werewolf. Werewolf gets damage buffs because you can't apply those buffs to your non-Werewolf abilities.

So also remove all set, item, and gear bonuses as well? Keep it entirely encapsulated?

For what it's worth, we lose our Weapon passives when we transform, even when we would normally have them. We also lose "while slotted on either bar" buffs, for obvious reasons. Both of those were specifically disabled in Werewolf form.

The passives we do have (such as Racial and Armor) exist because we don't need any abilities slotted to benefit from those passives. Only certain Class passives (like Necromancer's "Rapid Rot") work in-form as well because there's no ability requirement.


Werewolf is encapsulated by nature of disallowing non-Werewolf Active and Ultimate Abilities to be slotted while transformed. ZOS could disable Racial, Armor, Craft, and Class Passives while in-form like they've done for Weapon Passives, but they've opted not to. Doing so would severely reduce what little build diversity Werewolf has — it shouldn't be completely encapsulated, because it'd either be a win button or a lose button on any given patch.

Erickson9610

kyle.wilson wrote: »

If werewolves can pull people from stealth, we should be able to make scent bombs for counterplay.

Make sure the "scent bombs" work against non-werewolves, too. It would be interesting to have a counter to Detect, but then there'd be a counter to Detect counters, and so on.

We definitely don't need anything made to specifically target werewolves, because any humanoid build is able to Detect invisible players (and with a wider variety of options to do so). A way to counter Detect would be useful against all builds, not just werewolves — if they even had a way to detect stealthed players.