Necro is still missing a minor group buff passive

Urvoth · October 21

Every other class gives its group a minor buff passive except for Necro. Please give Necro a decent group buff passive so it can provide some innate group utility, just like every single other class.

Dragonknight - minor brutality
Templar - minor sorcery
Sorcerer - minor prophecy
Nightblade - minor savagery
Warden - minor toughness
Arcanist - minor evasion
Necromancer - ??

KingLewie_III · October 21

I don't disagree with the argument, but what's left? All I can think of is Minor Heroism and Minor Courage and I just have a feeling ZOS isn't giving those out as class buffs. Then again, I've seen crazier things happen over the years.

acastanza_ESO · October 21

The big problem is that unless you're going to invent a new buff all the good ones are at least somewhat used somewhere else.
Because of that, I'd probably suggest that necro get two minor buffs, maybe with two different proc conditions
the best candidates I can think of are Minor Vitality, Minor Resolve, and Minor Protection. All feel like they fit pretty thematically with the necromancer toolkit.

SkaraMinoc · October 21

KingLewie_III wrote: »

I don't disagree with the argument, but what's left? All I can think of is Minor Heroism and Minor Courage and I just have a feeling ZOS isn't giving those out as class buffs. Then again, I've seen crazier things happen over the years.

Minor Protection or Minor Resolve seems fitting.

BasP · October 21

How would that passive look like, though? Taking the Necro's current passives into account, these are some options I could come up with:

Disdain Harm: While you have a Bone Tyrant ability active, you reduce the damage you take from damage over time abilities by 15% and your group members gain Minor Protection, reducing their damage taken by 5%.

Undead Confederate: While you have a Sacrificial Bones, Skeletal Mage, or Spirit Mender active, your Health, Magicka, and Stamina Recovery is increased by 200 and you grant your group members Minor Resolve, increasing Physical Resistance and Spell Resistance by 2974.

Curative Curse: While you have a negative effect on you, your healing done is increased by 8% and you grant your group members Minor Vitality, increasing Healing Received by 8%.

Corpse Consumption: When you consume a corpse, you generate 10 Ultimate and your group members gain Minor Heroism for 12 seconds, generating 1 Ultimate every 1.5 seconds. This effect can occur once every 16 seconds.

CameraBeardThePirate · October 21

KingLewie_III wrote: »

I don't disagree with the argument, but what's left? All I can think of is Minor Heroism and Minor Courage and I just have a feeling ZOS isn't giving those out as class buffs. Then again, I've seen crazier things happen over the years.

You could very easily simply create a new minor buff.

Pen, Critical Healing, and Crit Resistance don't have named buffs. You could make a named buff for some of those, give one to Necro, then combine Prophecy/Savagery and Brutality/Sorcery and give some of those new buffs to Sorc/NB and Templar/DK (whichever ones don't get the combined buff).

Sure, you'd be introducing a bit of power creep, but I'd rather have just a little more power creep over redundant buffs on 2 classes and 1 class without a group buff.

Urvoth · October 21

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

KingLewie_III wrote: »

I don't disagree with the argument, but what's left? All I can think of is Minor Heroism and Minor Courage and I just have a feeling ZOS isn't giving those out as class buffs. Then again, I've seen crazier things happen over the years.

You could very easily simply create a new minor buff.

Crit Damage, Pen, Critical Healing, and Crit Resistance don't have named buffs. You could make a named buff for some of those, give one to Necro, then combine Prophecy/Savagery and Brutality/Sorcery and give some of those new buffs to Sorc/NB and Templar/DK (whichever ones don't get the combined buff).

Sure, you'd be introducing a bit of power creep, but I'd rather have just a little more power creep over redundant buffs on 2 classes and 1 class without a group buff.

Something like this would be the best move. Agony Totem already gives team minor protection anyway, although only in a small radius. They could also give necro minor force and replace it with other buffs on skills like RAT, Trap, etc.

Urvoth · October 21

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

KingLewie_III wrote: »

I don't disagree with the argument, but what's left? All I can think of is Minor Heroism and Minor Courage and I just have a feeling ZOS isn't giving those out as class buffs. Then again, I've seen crazier things happen over the years.

Minor Protection or Minor Resolve seems fitting.

Minor resolve is so readily available now through vigor, plus it's already on the necro armor buff.

YandereGirlfriend · October 21

BasP wrote: »

How would that passive look like, though? Taking the Necro's current passives into account, these are some options I could come up with:

Disdain Harm: While you have a Bone Tyrant ability active, you reduce the damage you take from damage over time abilities by 15% and your group members gain Minor Protection, reducing their damage taken by 5%.

Undead Confederate: While you have a Sacrificial Bones, Skeletal Mage, or Spirit Mender active, your Health, Magicka, and Stamina Recovery is increased by 200 and you grant your group members Minor Resolve, increasing Physical Resistance and Spell Resistance by 2974.

Curative Curse: While you have a negative effect on you, your healing done is increased by 8% and you grant your group members Minor Vitality, increasing Healing Received by 8%.

Corpse Consumption: When you consume a corpse, you generate 10 Ultimate and your group members gain Minor Heroism for 12 seconds, generating 1 Ultimate every 1.5 seconds. This effect can occur once every 16 seconds.

These are great. As has been said, though, Necro supplies its own Minor Protection and Minor Resolve from within its own class kit so those are probably not the best candidates for their teambuff.

If I had to choose I'd probably go with Minor Vitality since it's somewhat thematic to life and death and would mirror the Defile found in their damage toolkit.

Urzigurumash · October 21

Minor Vitality maybe stepping on Gardener of Seasons toes. I agree it's thematically and mechanically very logical. But some new Crit related buffs like Camera said sound sweet to me, the class could use some unique Crit Damage to match its unique but underpowered (in PvP) Crit Chance (Death Knell).

Soarora · October 22

Necro has aoe minor vulnerability and major vulnerability, they're not useless, at least not in pve... pvp might be another story.

YandereGirlfriend · October 22

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Minor Vitality maybe stepping on Gardener of Seasons toes. I agree it's thematically and mechanically very logical. But some new Crit related buffs like Camera said sound sweet to me, the class could use some unique Crit Damage to match its unique but underpowered (in PvP) Crit Chance (Death Knell).

Problem is that that buff already exists and is ubiquitous across the game - Minor Force. If Minor Force wasn't a thing then I'd agree.

Soarora wrote: »

Necro has aoe minor vulnerability and major vulnerability, they're not useless, at least not in pve... pvp might be another story.

Right, but none of that is unique to Necros. Any class can provide those debuffs. Necro used to have Major Vuln as its unique debuff but then Major Vuln got nerfed into Oblivion, from 30% down to 10%, and then it was given out like Halloween candy via sets. Turning Tide completely replaces a Necro in many different types of content. But you can't do that with Minor Prophecy or Minor Brutality, etc. where you literally DO need a Sorc or DK if you want that buff (and you do).

Soarora · October 22

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Right, but none of that is unique to Necros. Any class can provide those debuffs. Necro used to have Major Vuln as its unique debuff but then Major Vuln got nerfed into Oblivion, from 30% down to 10%, and then it was given out like Halloween candy via sets. Turning Tide completely replaces a Necro in many different types of content. But you can't do that with Minor Prophecy or Minor Brutality, etc. where you literally DO need a Sorc or DK if you want that buff (and you do).

Now with more sets, having TT isn't necessarily a 100% best choice. LE did throw out ec cro though.

Urvoth · October 22

Soarora wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Right, but none of that is unique to Necros. Any class can provide those debuffs. Necro used to have Major Vuln as its unique debuff but then Major Vuln got nerfed into Oblivion, from 30% down to 10%, and then it was given out like Halloween candy via sets. Turning Tide completely replaces a Necro in many different types of content. But you can't do that with Minor Prophecy or Minor Brutality, etc. where you literally DO need a Sorc or DK if you want that buff (and you do).

Now with more sets, having TT isn't necessarily a 100% best choice. LE did throw out ec cro though.

You're also not going to run colossus on every single necro build. Other classes provide passive group buffs just by existing and it should be the same way for necro.

sarahthes · October 22

KingLewie_III wrote: »

I don't disagree with the argument, but what's left? All I can think of is Minor Heroism and Minor Courage and I just have a feeling ZOS isn't giving those out as class buffs. Then again, I've seen crazier things happen over the years.

Arcanists give minor courage.

necro_the_crafter · October 22

Necro had an identity of a strong DPS debuff - major vuln, now its not.
If they changed major vuln on frost colossus to major brittle necro will have its identity back.

Urzigurumash · October 22

necro_the_crafter wrote: »

Necro had an identity of a strong DPS debuff - major vuln, now its not.
If they changed major vuln on frost colossus to major brittle necro will have its identity back.

I agree 10000%

Urzigurumash · October 22

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Minor Vitality maybe stepping on Gardener of Seasons toes. I agree it's thematically and mechanically very logical. But some new Crit related buffs like Camera said sound sweet to me, the class could use some unique Crit Damage to match its unique but underpowered (in PvP) Crit Chance (Death Knell).

Problem is that that buff already exists and is ubiquitous across the game - Minor Force. If Minor Force wasn't a thing then I'd agree.

Oh right duh! For smallscale/solo PvP that would be nice actually, at least a small step towards freeing Cro of Race against Time, we've talked about enforcing the now-vacant "Pressure Tank" identity for PvP Cro, the class has the toughness to survive just like sDK of old (of course sDK did well without much speed buff because of Leap).

Of the existing buffs Minor Vitality is pretty much perfect, except for lessening the usefulness of Gardener of Seasons, which I assume the devs still want as a potential piece in a comped team. Or no? Hollowfang I assume is old enough to be moved to the outdated pile.. the way Turning Tide moved Cro there..

TDVM · October 22

Disappointing players who don't understand anything about classes. Necro doesn't need such buffs for the group, necro should have a sapporter status that debuffs the target/targets. That's the essence of the class. It shouldn't be given to give something to the group. Even ZOS themselves said that necro is a debuffer class, but the implementation as a class that debuffs is terrible.

The essence of the necro class is that it would impose as many debuffs as possible, buffs for groups can give other classes or sets.

Urzigurumash · October 22

TDVM wrote: »

Disappointing players who don't understand anything about classes. Necro doesn't need such buffs for the group, necro should have a sapporter status that debuffs the target/targets. That's the essence of the class. It shouldn't be given to give something to the group. Even ZOS themselves said that necro is a debuffer class, but the implementation as a class that debuffs is terrible.

The essence of the necro class is that it would impose as many debuffs as possible, buffs for groups can give other classes or sets.

You're all a disappointment to TDVM, hope you're happy

Like what though, what else is there besides the Minor Fracture that still remains on Alchemical Poisons - that has some use in both PvE and PvP?

Urvoth · October 22

TDVM wrote: »

Disappointing players who don't understand anything about classes. Necro doesn't need such buffs for the group, necro should have a sapporter status that debuffs the target/targets. That's the essence of the class. It shouldn't be given to give something to the group. Even ZOS themselves said that necro is a debuffer class, but the implementation as a class that debuffs is terrible.

The essence of the necro class is that it would impose as many debuffs as possible, buffs for groups can give other classes or sets.

Other classes have just as good or better generic debuff options as Necro, as well as unique, class-specific ones. Necro doesn’t have a single class-specific debuff. That argument really doesn’t hold up when generic major/minor debuffs are available all over the place these days and Necro isn’t even the best application option in plenty of scenarios. The standard class format is for each class to provide a relatively unique group minor buff in their passives and there’s no real reason anymore for Necro not to do that as well.

If anything, Nightblade is now the best PvP debuff class on top of everything else it provides.

Urvoth · October 22

necro_the_crafter wrote: »

Necro had an identity of a strong DPS debuff - major vuln, now its not.
If they changed major vuln on frost colossus to major brittle necro will have its identity back.

That would be a huge help to necro overall, but it should still get a minor passive buff for the group. Not every necro dps will use colossus, or they might be playing other roles and need support ults. Every other class can provide their minor passive buffs essentially by just existing, so it should be the same for necro.

Urzigurumash · October 22

Urvoth wrote: »

TDVM wrote: »

Disappointing players who don't understand anything about classes. Necro doesn't need such buffs for the group, necro should have a sapporter status that debuffs the target/targets. That's the essence of the class. It shouldn't be given to give something to the group. Even ZOS themselves said that necro is a debuffer class, but the implementation as a class that debuffs is terrible.

The essence of the necro class is that it would impose as many debuffs as possible, buffs for groups can give other classes or sets.

Other classes have just as good or better generic debuff options as Necro, as well as unique, class-specific ones. Necro doesn’t have a single class-specific debuff. That argument really doesn’t hold up when generic major/minor debuffs are available all over the place these days and Necro isn’t even the best application option in plenty of scenarios. The standard class format is for each class to provide a relatively unique group minor buff in their passives and there’s no real reason anymore for Necro not to do that as well.

If anything, Nightblade is now the best PvP debuff class on top of everything else it provides.

Well I think that's their point, Necro should have a unique debuff. Closest we've got now maybe is quickest stacking of AoE Bleeding in Ruinous Scythe.

Urvoth · October 22

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Urvoth wrote: »

TDVM wrote: »

Disappointing players who don't understand anything about classes. Necro doesn't need such buffs for the group, necro should have a sapporter status that debuffs the target/targets. That's the essence of the class. It shouldn't be given to give something to the group. Even ZOS themselves said that necro is a debuffer class, but the implementation as a class that debuffs is terrible.

The essence of the necro class is that it would impose as many debuffs as possible, buffs for groups can give other classes or sets.

Other classes have just as good or better generic debuff options as Necro, as well as unique, class-specific ones. Necro doesn’t have a single class-specific debuff. That argument really doesn’t hold up when generic major/minor debuffs are available all over the place these days and Necro isn’t even the best application option in plenty of scenarios. The standard class format is for each class to provide a relatively unique group minor buff in their passives and there’s no real reason anymore for Necro not to do that as well.

If anything, Nightblade is now the best PvP debuff class on top of everything else it provides.

Well I think that's their point, Necro should have a unique debuff. Closest we've got now maybe is quickest stacking of AoE Bleeding in Ruinous Scythe.

I fail to see why we can’t have both. DK has both minor brutality AND a unique class debuff with engulfing flames, on top of other debuffs, and other classes are similar.

A class passive group buff is important across all content, regardless of what role/ult other classes use.

necro_the_crafter · October 22

Urvoth wrote: »

I fail to see why we can’t have both. DK has both minor brutality AND a unique class debuff with engulfing flames, on top of other debuffs, and other classes are similar.

A class passive group buff is important across all content, regardless of what role/ult other classes use.

DKS also have Stagger, which is unique to them and two 5 piece sets that affect only its wearer.

ZoS still have to solve minor prophecy/savagery/brutality/sorcery for hybridization. I hope those would become widely avaliable generic buffs, and every class will get unique buff that is outside of minor/major system instead.

But as for now the niche is open for 5-10% mag/stam, similar to 10% health that on warden, and kinda like minor version of what war horn ulti provides. Only promblem is - necros themselves arent benefinitng from max stats (except for health) at all (except for slight damage scaling from stats), but it will still be something uniqe and helpful to the group.

Aldoss · October 22

Rapid Rot could be transformed into a unique group debuff:

Increases your damage done with damage over time effects by 10%. Damaging enemies with a damage over time skill afflicts them with Rapid Rot for 5 seconds, increasing the damage of your group member's damage over time effects by 10%.

MATH_COW · October 22

Well in fact wardens also don't have that kind of buff because no, minor thoughness from Maturation is not working like all the others classes passives minor buff.
It's not "active any of your skill of that skill tree and it will give the buff to the whole group" it's a buff that only healer warden can apply on the full group by always having heal on them. On the hand of warden tank and DD it's just a buff they gonna have for themself and rarely give it to a lot of other group member.

Always hoped that they gonna give minor resolve when using a Winter Embrace skill to let Warden tank have both resolve when using Ice frotress and warden heal give both to the whole group when use the expansive cloack but I can still dream.

For necro I always had issues finding what they could have as said above there isn't a lot left to give. A buff about health would be the best idea but Fortitude is bad, vitality could be a good idea or mending, or maybe just intellect and endurace?

Sordidfairytale · October 23

MATH_COW wrote: »

vitality could be a good idea or mending

Vitality and Mending just seem antithetical to the business of a Necromancer.

In all seriousness, standardizing how the abilities benefit the group should be addressed first. One method is using an ability (e.g. Dark Magic for Sorceror) and one method is applying an affect on a target (e.g. Engulfing Flame for Dragonknight)

All classes should have both. This way no class gets kicked to the curb for not providing a group buff. The weapon and spell damage buffs should be hybridized to increase both damage types. The weapon and spell crit chance should also be hybridized so that they provide an equal chance to both damage types. Each of the classes gets one of these group buffs. And each class gets a semi-uniqe group buff. (e.g. Flame Damage for Dragonknight, Minor Toughness for Warden)

So a for instance;

Necro could provide the minor bonus to crit chance group buff anytime they consume a corpse. And then Hungry Scythe increases the Magic Damage targets take by up to 6%.

Warden could provide the minor power bonus group buff any time they cast an Animal Companion ability. And then casting any Green Balance ability applies Minor Tougness to the group.

necro_the_crafter · October 25

After thinking for a week i think i found one for necro. Major version of this buff has been existing since beta, and minor is nowhere to be seen.

Ofcourse im talking about MINOR GALLOP!. Necros should definetely provide this one, a whooping 15% mounted speed increase for all group, trigered upon consuming a corpse, or upon dismounting, or while you are in bone totem radius, or while you in bone goliath form, choose the most clankiest way to fit a design philosophy of necromancer balancing.

Theist_VII · October 25

If I could go back and re-write the group passives into all defensive ones, further balancing the classes…

Dragonknight - Minor Resolve
Templar - Minor Mending
Nightblade - Minor Expedition
Sorcerer - Minor Evasion
Warden - Minor Vitality
Necromancer - Minor Toughness
Arcanist - Minor Protection

I would also rename Toughness into something more thoughtful, and then I would move the ward increase to Protection from Vitality while reverting the value of Healing Received to it’s higher point.

Theist_VII · October 25

They could also make an entirely new Minor/Major Buff dedicated to protection from Damage-Over-Time at a much higher value than Protection to compensate for it’s niché use, similar to Evasion’s AoE use, and that would be more in line with Necromancer.