The arcanist tomb book in class skills is aesthetically unpleasing.

Benzux

Syldras wrote: »

SilverIce58 wrote: »

Do you need it to be explicitly said? It makes sense to me that magic that summons power from Mora/Apocrypha would manifest as a book or tome or scroll of some sort. He is the Daedric Prince of forbidden knowledge with a realm full of books, so wouldn't you think to need one to connect to him better? How better to bind knowledge than in a book? Of course Arcanists' magic would utilize such iconography.

The question is not what would be the best tool for channeling, the question is why a tool would be needed at all, because all other daedric summoners do not need one. If there's an exception to a rule, it calls for an explanation.

I feel like this is quite self-explanatory. The magic comes from the book and the arcanist's understanding of it. An arcanist is not an arcanist without their book. Other spellcasters may not require foci for the majority of their spells, but those spellcasters would also be incapable of casting the same specific spells as the arcanist can. On the other hand, an arcanist (provided that they actually have magical training and it's not all just from what they've learned through Mora) would theoretically be able to learn standard Conjuration spells and summon Daedra from Oblivion, without the need for a foci, just like any other spellcaster.

Theist_VII

While shooting out of a book feels weird, ZOS have already stepped out of the current base template set by previous Elder Scrolls games. We’ve seen light magic, shadow magic, blood magic, earth magic, and wind magic, all of which have no relevance to the schools of magic.

The line to draw would have been day one as all of those mentioned norm-breaks are from base classes, and honestly I find it nice to see ZOS expanding upon the fantasy, I just wish that instead of “book magic” Arcanists got something a lot more interesting.

karthrag_inak

Khajiit finds the present mechanism delightful and appropriate. This one loves to follow the bright pointer-y lights - they are very exciting - exhilarating even. Come to think of it, khajiit feels like he has been waiting for such things all his life.

Benzux wrote: »

Other spellcasters may not require foci for the majority of their spells, but those spellcasters would also be incapable of casting the same specific spells as the arcanist can.

Sereyne specifically mentions how she needs to find her "arcane focus" to cast her spells. Just mentioning.

Chilly-McFreeze

Taril wrote: »

Meaning, we can never have anything actually new and can only rehash things from prior titles?

Heren wrote: »

So, hu, every other visuals in ESO have strong precedents in other elder scrolls games I suppose ? And for more clarity, because the precedent argument is waved around, every visuals in ESO can be found in Arena I suppose ? If not, I truly expect all the people waving the precedent argument to express their dislike of the visuals not present in Arena, just like they express their dislike of the tome-shooting-beam.

If we go by release dates you've got a point. If we go by timeline, why does no one in the next 2 Eras and 1000 Years use a book to channel an energy beam like we see in ESO?
We even have Miraak and the Cultists not swinging Books around.

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

As for coming from a book, sorcerers cast spells that come from their staves, yet in skyrim (and I believe Morrowind and Oblivion) they cast directly from their hands, which implies that the energy is coming from the caster themselves, yet channeled through a physical object. Maybe an apple would work just as well (though, to be fair, I would think an apple would be far to fragile). Arcanists just use books.
.

Incorrect. The staves in MW/ Oblivion and Skyrim gave you spells as well. Plus in ESO said sorcs can cast Lightning without staves (Fury, Liquid Lightning etc). DKs can cast fire spells without staves. Wardens cast some ice skills with any weapon they want.

"Taril wrote: »

Yet just because we haven't had skills powered by Hermaeus Mora specifically before it's suddenly "Unprecedented" and "Out of place" when they are finally seen?

What about the Dragonborn DLC?

"Taril wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Anyway, the flashy, sci fiy looking skills caused a bit of a push back back when it was released as it's so far from the aesthetics of the other classes which are rooted deeper in already existing elder scrolls lore and which have been more prominent in the single player games. That's huge part of the bone of contention.

Though this is more of a separate discussion.

The OP of this thread was specifically talking about the use of the book Like, even despite scrolls being cited as a use of an object to channel the power of a spell. Having a book as a focii is somehow silly.

Like, not "The use of a focii is unprecedented for the IP" which is true. You don't require a Destruction Staff to cast a Destruction spell. In general the IP has made focii not required and the only physical items tending to be Soul Gems (Though various spells and rituals also required reagents or some objects and even locations like altars to channel)

Not the "Laser beams!? In my Fantasy Game!?" which can be a little strange (Though, we've had beams of light before and lightning "Beams" so it's not necessarily a brand new concept) or the bright neon green colouration of skills (Though, we've had a lot of bright neon blue before with Molag Bal and Coldharbour)

Those arguments have more weight behind them than "Who goes and faces a dragon with a book!?" - Like mages haven't gone to face dragons bare handed because spells don't require anything (Also unarmed being a potential fighting style in other games. I was quite fond of punching dragons in the face in Skyrim) or how a stick (Staff) is equally silly when you ignore the magical power it contains.

Having qualms about the overall aethetics of Arcanist skills has some merit. They certainly do stand out compared to many other class skills. But, qualms about the use of a book seems odd in the face of all the many other magical items we've seen throughout all the games.

So yeah, complain about the neon green laser beam the book shoots out, rather than the fact that a book is a focus.

Fair enough. However, we can isolate one argument alone (foci precedence, retconning, visuals / sfx) and call it a day or we can take everything into account and might conclude that the devs took a bit of creative freedom to create a stand-out class to boost chapter sells.

Syldras

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

To me, one of the things to remember is that ESO takes place hundreds of years before any of the single player games.
This means that things that we might take for granted, such as no arcane books, in those titles might have been nonexistant or in their infancy during ESO's time. (...)
I could see this as yet more 'we are learning more and more about arcane energies every day' and at the moment in time ESO is, they still need physical props, while later on, they learn how to not only imbue scrolls with knowledge for others to use, instead of each person having to learn their own versions of the spells, but also how to not rely on actual props to channel the energy.

My sorcerer can conjure his daedric minions, daedric crystal shards and whatever just fine, without any need for a physical item, just by ridiculously excessively flailing his arms

karthrag_inak wrote: »

Sereyne specifically mentions how she needs to find her "arcane focus" to cast her spells. Just mentioning.

Isn't this about a mental focus, so the opposite of a physical item?

Benzux wrote: »

I feel like this is quite self-explanatory. The magic comes from the book and the arcanist's understanding of it.

It is stated that the power itself is drawn out of Apocrypha, for example out of the sea of ink. The book is only, how to describe it, a "tunnel"? The question why Apocryphean energy needs this but energy from other daedric realm do not, still remains. And while we're at it: The "laser beams" ability mentioned earlier is officially described as "Harness pure knowledge into a beam of energy that scars the world in front of you." It is never elaborated on how turning knowledge into a laser actually functions either.

All I say is that I'd like to see more background lore instead of just saying "That's how it is, take it for granted". Especially if an aspect seems different to what has been established in lore for a longer time already.

karthrag_inak

Syldras wrote: »

karthrag_inak wrote: »

Sereyne specifically mentions how she needs to find her "arcane focus" to cast her spells. Just mentioning.

Isn't this about a mental focus, so the opposite of a physical item?

If you mean in relation to Sereyne, no it is a physical arcane focus that the player must steal back for her so she can properly channel her spells.

Benzux

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Taril wrote: »

Meaning, we can never have anything actually new and can only rehash things from prior titles?

Heren wrote: »

So, hu, every other visuals in ESO have strong precedents in other elder scrolls games I suppose ? And for more clarity, because the precedent argument is waved around, every visuals in ESO can be found in Arena I suppose ? If not, I truly expect all the people waving the precedent argument to express their dislike of the visuals not present in Arena, just like they express their dislike of the tome-shooting-beam.

If we go by release dates you've got a point. If we go by timeline, why does no one in the next 2 Eras and 1000 Years use a book to channel an energy beam like we see in ESO?
We even have Miraak and the Cultists not swinging Books around.

"Taril wrote: »

Yet just because we haven't had skills powered by Hermaeus Mora specifically before it's suddenly "Unprecedented" and "Out of place" when they are finally seen?

What about the Dragonborn DLC?

I don't think the Miraak cultists are necessarily tied to Mora, even if Miraak himself is. They are simply cultists of Miraak who he convinced/mind controlled to his cause via communicating through the All-Maker stones, and are more so tied to the ancient Dragon Cult than they are to any Arcanists or warlocks of Mora. Miraak himself utilizes a staff from which he conjures apocryphal tentacles, but honestly I wouldn't classify him as an Arcanist. And even if he once was one, he's had thousands of years of time to read in Apocrypha - I doubt he'd need the aid of a tome in the 4th Era after having all that time to memorize every single spell he would have come across. Plus, having direct access to actual Black Books would render other books that are suitable for an Arcanist's grimoire quite inferior.

Taril

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

If we go by timeline, why does no one in the next 2 Eras and 1000 Years use a book to channel an energy beam like we see in ESO?

Daedric princes are fickle. Perhaps Hermaeus Mora simply doesn't grant mortals the knowledge of such a technique after some time.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Fair enough. However, we can isolate one argument alone (foci precedence, retconning, visuals / sfx) and call it a day or we can take everything into account and might conclude that the devs took a bit of creative freedom to create a stand-out class to boost chapter sells.

Sure. But complaints should take into account what they're addressing.

From the original matter of "Using an item as a foci" it's kind of odd to have disagreements about it given the precendence of magical items overall.

For matters in regards to overall implementation of Arcanist? It's not odd at all to have disagreements about various aspects of how it is portrayed.

Syldras wrote: »

[It is stated that the power itself is drawn out of Apocrypha, for example out of the sea of ink. The book is only, how to describe it, a "tunnel"? The question why Apocryphean energy needs this but energy from other daedric realm do not, still remains. And while we're at it: The "laser beams" ability mentioned earlier is officially described as "Harness pure knowledge into a beam of energy that scars the world in front of you." It is never elaborated on how turning knowledge into a laser actually functions either.

All I say is that I'd like to see more background lore instead of just saying "That's how it is, take it for granted". Especially if an aspect seems different to what has been established in lore for a longer time already.

Well... The thing to note is that in general... Arcanists don't need the book. They channel the majority of their powers just like any other mage utilizing daedric power. A wave of the arm here and a wiggle there and jobs done.

It's only for the single specific spell that they actually utilize the book.

Meaning it's less "Why are Arcanists different" and more "Why is that singular spell different?"

To which the apparent answer is that singular spell is unique - Something about it seemingly requires a focus in order to utilize it.

Which in of itself, isn't outlandish. There are countless spells that require some physical objects to perform (See: Literally every quest in every TES game where you've had to go and fetch some stupid focus or some random reagents for someone to perform a spell). This simply might be an example of one that a player character gets to use (Besides consuming Soul Gems as reagents that is)

Also, the Spell Scribing we have these days also hinges on acquiring "Grimoires" to access certain spells. Which also indicates some sort of book based channel (Though less directly as their animations don't literally shoot the spells out of a book).

For any more specifics... We'd need to get more lore surrounding that specific spell (At best we can extrapolate from something like Azandar's personal quest which revolves around his developing of the Fateweaver Key which interacts with his threads of fate and some runeforms he creates. Perhaps the book contains knowledge that developed a technique for the laser beam and much like the Fateweaver Key could actually be used by anyone, had they access to it)

Syldras

Benzux wrote: »

I don't think the Miraak cultists are necessarily tied to Mora, even if Miraak himself is. They are simply cultists of Miraak who he convinced/mind controlled to his cause via communicating through the All-Maker stones, and are more so tied to the ancient Dragon Cult than they are to any Arcanists or warlocks of Mora. Miraak himself utilizes a staff from which he conjures apocryphal tentacles, but honestly I wouldn't classify him as an Arcanist. And even if he once was one, he's had thousands of years of time to read in Apocrypha - I doubt he'd need the aid of a tome in the 4th Era after having all that time to memorize every single spell he would have come across. Plus, having direct access to actual Black Books would render other books that are suitable for an Arcanist's grimoire quite inferior.

I don't think Miraak is an Arcanist either, but the book is used for channelling. It's not just about learning or reading its contents, the physical item is needed.

Taril wrote: »

Well... The thing to note is that in general... Arcanists don't need the book. They channel the majority of their powers just like any other mage utilizing daedric power. A wave of the arm here and a wiggle there and jobs done.
It's only for the single specific spell that they actually utilize the book.
Meaning it's less "Why are Arcanists different" and more "Why is that singular spell different?"
To which the apparent answer is that singular spell is unique - Something about it seemingly requires a focus in order to utilize it.

While the animations do look like this, lore states otherwise. Have you read the lore texts I mentioned? It's made clear that the book plays a crucial role for every Arcanist spell, which are all spells that draw energy from Apocrypha.

Taril wrote: »

For any more specifics... We'd need to get more lore surrounding that specific spell (At best we can extrapolate from something like Azandar's personal quest which revolves around his developing of the Fateweaver Key which interacts with his threads of fate and some runeforms he creates. Perhaps the book contains knowledge that developed a technique for the laser beam and much like the Fateweaver Key could actually be used by anyone, had they access to it)

This is absolutely not how these books are described to function. I'm sorry for being that direct (and it is not meant as an insult, but as a honest question), but how shall we discuss Arcanist lore if you don't seem to have read it?

Taril wrote: »

Also, the Spell Scribing we have these days also hinges on acquiring "Grimoires" to access certain spells. Which also indicates some sort of book based channel (Though less directly as their animations don't literally shoot the spells out of a book).

By the word (talking about the real world now), a grimoire is just every kind of magical handbook (historically people believed magic existed for real, after all). As for the ESO items, they seem to be notebooks to write your spells in, and I want to be honest: The whole scribing system feels horribly "game-y" to me (especially that one has to acquire extra ink and extra notebooks for it, which makes sense from the gaming perspective, of course - ZOS wants us to grind - but a less when it comes to lore). And I'm not the only person who has criticized that before.

SickleCider

My complaint about the arcanist kit is that there's no skill where you can just beat people over the head with the book.

I've wanted a similar skill for staves for a while.

I just want to hit things with various objects.

Benzux

Syldras wrote: »

Benzux wrote: »

I don't think the Miraak cultists are necessarily tied to Mora, even if Miraak himself is. They are simply cultists of Miraak who he convinced/mind controlled to his cause via communicating through the All-Maker stones, and are more so tied to the ancient Dragon Cult than they are to any Arcanists or warlocks of Mora. Miraak himself utilizes a staff from which he conjures apocryphal tentacles, but honestly I wouldn't classify him as an Arcanist. And even if he once was one, he's had thousands of years of time to read in Apocrypha - I doubt he'd need the aid of a tome in the 4th Era after having all that time to memorize every single spell he would have come across. Plus, having direct access to actual Black Books would render other books that are suitable for an Arcanist's grimoire quite inferior.

I don't think Miraak is an Arcanist either, but the book is used for channelling. It's not just about learning or reading its contents, the physical item is needed.

I am aware, what I was alluding to was that, with enough time and forbidden knowledge at your disposal, it might be entirely possible to learn to harness to power of these tomes without requiring the tome itself. Again, though, this is merely speculation based on the possibility that Miraak is/was an Arcanist, which we both seem to think is not necessarily the case.

Regardless, the original point that I was addressing was that Miraak and his cultists don't seemingly use Arcanist magic or tomes in the 4th Era, and my answer to that is simply that of them, only Miraak has any direct ties to Hermaeus Mora, and he probably was not an Arcanist in the first place. I'd classify him more as a warlock and champion of the Prince of Knowledge, and neither of those terms are synonyms with "Arcanist". A warlock oath-bound to Mora might be an Arcanist, but they also might not be, and vice versa.

JemadarofCaerSalis

I know that in Skyrim I cast all my spells without the use of staves, because I remember my hands being empty while casting and being able to have two different spells slotted.

My point was more along the lines of 'as times change, so do the implements'.

It could simply come down to arcanists died out, because they are so closely linked to Hermaeus Mora, and Mora decided to not allow any more to learn his secrets, or it could be they figured out other, maybe better methods to channel their powers.

If ESO was meant to be concurrent with the single player titles, I would say that they should stick closer to the mechanics from those titles. Instead, it takes place before, a while before, and so there is room for things being different. Such as the ability to fly through magic disappearing (a major tragedy as far as I am concerned) between Morrowind and Skyrim (pretty sure you couldn't fly in Oblivion, but that is the title I am weakest on, due to it being my least favorite)

Different types of spells might require different implements, such as daedric summoning not needing a staff while other types of spells require it.

Just as in Morrowind and later, we have multiple schools of magic, while in ESO we don't. At least not like we do in other titles. So, perhaps along with splitting up the magic into different schools, there was a shift in HOW magic worked as well, so that by the time we arrive in Morrowind, tools weren't required, though they could still be used, for spells, and arcanists could have disappeared by that time or shifted into a different type of class, just as we don't really have wardens in the other titles.

TaSheen

For me, it's mostly "I'm just not bothered by whatever the devs program as the means to an end". In other words, regardless this is an FCRPG at it's heart (assuming it has one).... I just do whatever the mechanics require as that "means to an end".

Nerouyn

I wish ESO didn't have classes but it does and arcanist is the clear current favourite for me.

Magic in The Elder Scrolls single player games is "grounded" in appearance. That's how Todd and other Bethesda bunnies describe it.

Not over the top. Not flashy. Not fancy. It gets the job done.

With a few exceptions, most of the base game class ability animations follow that aesthetic.

Wardens and necromancers less so, with the explanation being those classes are tapping into illusion magic.

Arcanists aren't even performing magic. Their abilities are not innate. That power comes from the book and Hermaeus Mora.

I think ZO know they've tapped the TES fan dry and are looking to appeal to the broader gamer base who might be accustomed to and prefer flashier magic. That's why Wardens, Necros and now Arcanists have been increasingly flashy.

I'm happy to admit to bias. Mechanically arcanist is finally a class that ticks nearly all of my boxes. I'm willing to go along with ZO on the arcanists-are-not-doing-magic-so-we-can-ignore-grounded-aesthetics and appreciate the result as an artful interpretation of how HM might want those abilities to look.

Syldras

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

Such as the ability to fly through magic disappearing (a major tragedy as far as I am concerned) between Morrowind and Skyrim (pretty sure you couldn't fly in Oblivion, but that is the title I am weakest on, due to it being my least favorite)

There's one in Skyrim's Solstheim DLC, but that's more of an Easter Egg:
https://pt.uesp.net/wiki/Dragonborn:Wizard

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

Just as in Morrowind and later, we have multiple schools of magic, while in ESO we don't. At least not like we do in other titles.

Just to clarify: They do exist, npcs refer to them in dialogues. We just don't really get them presented as a game mechanic.

Nerouyn wrote: »

Arcanists aren't even performing magic. Their abilities are not innate. That power comes from the book and Hermaeus Mora.

Half/half, I would say. The tome is attuned to them. It's stated that to everyone else, the book just looks like a random book filled with gibberish, without any way to use it. While it certainly is neccessary to pull energy from Apocrypha, it seems that a part of the magic is innate to the arcanist, and it also consumes their magicka.

Heren

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

If we go by release dates you've got a point. If we go by timeline, why does no one in the next 2 Eras and 1000 Years use a book to channel an energy beam like we see in ESO?
We even have Miraak and the Cultists not swinging Books around.

As disapointing the answer might be, it's simple - and you certainly know it : even if elder scrolls games don't follow a straight path forward time-wise, development of these games do. I would say it's rather useless to search for explanations about why there is no arcanists like in ESO in other elder scrolls games, or, like, any other things that are presents in ESO and not in the other games - I trust your honesty to keep that into account !

Sure, lore masters and such can come with explanations about the differences we saw between these games, and surely players do try to explain this - or dismiss them ! It can certainly make for interesting discussions, but still, I feel the 'no-precedent' argument is not a really good one, nor an interesting one as it easily lead to plain dismissing of elements of the game, with little to no intellectual honesty from some people waving it.

I truly think it's better to discuss the 'how can we explain it ?' rather than smash the 'this don't belong to elder scrolls as we never see it before !' over and over again. And I'm certainly glad that the discussion seems to have taken this turn !

Nerouyn

Syldras wrote: »

Half/half, I would say. The tome is attuned to them. It's stated that to everyone else, the book just looks like a random book filled with gibberish, without any way to use it. While it certainly is neccessary to pull energy from Apocrypha, it seems that a part of the magic is innate to the arcanist, and it also consumes their magicka.

Though I regard ESO's "stamina morphs" as bogus shams which I level and then disregard, there are those.

That arcanist abilities consume magicka isn't meaningless and in the class description it says:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Arcanist

The Arcanist is a powerful new Class capable of destructive, restorative, or defensive magic by channeling the arcane, ancient runes, and lost tomes of power.

But they're not performing magic in the same way that other practitioners of magic do. All of the other classes and their abilities are spoken of in the sense of it all being mechanically the same magic as practiced by anyone. Just predating a time when the teaching of those spells isn't restricted in any way.

Arcanist tomes are essentially either daedric artifacts or a complex form of enchantment perhaps comprehensible only to HM. And maybe that's potato potato territory.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Loremaster's_Archive_-_The_Arcanists

While study has shown that the language of arcanist runes is universal, they do not represent the same concepts across individual arcanists. I could draw you a symbol that in my spellwork means "power," for example. And you, as another arcanist, might tell me that same symbol means "fire." These sigils are unique to arcanist magecraft, as far as I know, but like the one-to-one relationship between mortal and tome, so too are the uses of these sigils specific to the arcanist.

As I said, I think the developers probably had the specific of goal making them more flashy for broader appeal and wrote this new lore accordingly, but at the end of the day, it all adds up.

JemadarofCaerSalis

Syldras wrote: »

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

Just as in Morrowind and later, we have multiple schools of magic, while in ESO we don't. At least not like we do in other titles.

Just to clarify: They do exist, npcs refer to them in dialogues. We just don't really get them presented as a game mechanic.

Ah, there is so much dialogue that I either missed that or just forgot that, but that does make sense.

Sorry, went down the rabbit hole of 'maybe I want to play Morrowind again, I wonder if there are any mods to make the graphics better, and oh, what about some of my favorite mods?' so I have forgotten what else I wanted to say.

SilverIce58

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

Just as in Morrowind and later, we have multiple schools of magic, while in ESO we don't. At least not like we do in other titles.

Just to clarify: They do exist, npcs refer to them in dialogues. We just don't really get them presented as a game mechanic.

Ah, there is so much dialogue that I either missed that or just forgot that, but that does make sense.

Sorry, went down the rabbit hole of 'maybe I want to play Morrowind again, I wonder if there are any mods to make the graphics better, and oh, what about some of my favorite mods?' so I have forgotten what else I wanted to say.

Its barely spoken about outside of Gabrielle Benele a couple times and during the questline in Shad Astula. That's also the only place in the current 2nd era that divides magic into schools like that. The Mages Guild eventually will, but they're a bit away from that. Maybe it'll be a game feature where we get a revamp of new additional Mages Guild skills, or maybe the College of Winterhold will have the schools of magic as well with their own skill tomes to pick up for spellcrafting.

katanagirl1

BahometZ wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

BahometZ wrote: »

I continue to find the various objections to arcanist animations stunningly close-minded,

I hope you don't mean me as, if you look at my comments closely, I have not even given my opinion on these books. All I do is acknowledging the criticism (as I said, OP isn't the only one; in fact there were a lot of such postings after the Necrom reveal stream) and wondering whether and how these books may or may not fit into the existing lore (I don't even have a set opinion about it yet).

BahometZ wrote: »

given this is a fantasy setting. Anything can happen.

I object. A good narration needs plausibility. Just because it's fantasy it doesn't mean one could randomly add anything ("anything" would also mean David Hasselhoff in a Ferrari) - or, of course one could, but people may have good reasons to question it then.

BahometZ wrote: »

Is it so hard to imagine that magical books are dangerous?

I think the main problem for people who dislike these books is that they are shooting laser beams, which indeed was nothing any scripture in TES was ever capable of before.

They're not laser beams though, that's a subjective description that people have been applying for some reason. It's a beam of arcane energy. Which is entirely plausible. Templars also have a "laser beam".

I think people are way too invested in their own personal views on an mmo designed for mass consumption.

The beam is also like the watcher ultimate, and the “eye beams” that the watchers talk about in IA.