The arcanist tomb book in class skills is aesthetically unpleasing.

mdb800

I'm very well aware that if skill styles for class abilities becomes a thing that the most requested feature is people's pets being able to change appearances. However; for the arcanist class, it's a bit much with the tomb appearing in a number of the class skills. It's just hard to not feel that the game is like fortnite or Roblox or something like that when introducing household items as combat tools. I mean it's funny and a little zany, but it'd be nice to have the option for players who don't want to have that to choose an alternative appearance for those class skills.

What separates elder scrolls players from dungeons and dragons players is a visual logic to things. Would you run out into a battlefield to take over a castle or risk your life against the dragon while wielding a book? Goodness, no!
I don't mean that as some sort of jab at players who want to have that, that's their choice, I just want to have the choice to feel more in tune , aesthetically, to the elder scrolls. I want to point out in none of the other entries of the elder scrolls are you able to equip a book and wave it around in front of your enemies screaming, "Hocus pocus" and doing damage. However, you can get one-time use of scrolls that let you temporarily use a spell that you don't know, in oblivion , Morrowind and Skyrim but that's not what this is and that's deliberate because it just doesn't fit the logic and lore of elder scrolls. It's very out of place. again, that's not a jab. We have festivals and celebrations throughout the year that allows us to put polymorphs in costumes that, of course, break the lawyer as well. I just feel that it's very captive and it's unfair to players who are forced to accept that as a default. If they want to try a new class. It just seems up until last year old classes followed some sort of logic to the lore of elder scrolls or at least made an attempt to. This is a deviation of that but I believe that the sensibility of the in-game mechanics is there and it would take very little effort to just add an option take the tomb out of the animations or replace it with something else.

Again, I'm not saying that the tomb animation should be removed from the game. I'm saying that it'd be nice to have an alternative animation available for those who simply cannot stand it, but want to give arcanist a try. I know I'm not the only one who feels that way. I know a number of players who have complained about this very issue and they just don't want to play the arcanist cuz it just feels cartoony because of that and they don't want to look at that.

Heren

Fascinating.

El_Borracho

Syldras

mdb800 wrote: »

What separates elder scrolls players from dungeons and dragons players is a visual logic to things. Would you run out into a battlefield to take over a castle or risk your life against the dragon while wielding a book? Goodness, no! (...) We have festivals and celebrations throughout the year that allows us to put polymorphs in costumes that, of course, break the lawyer as well.

If a tome is heavy enough, it can certainly be used to smash skulls... for example of lawyers

But seriously: Yes, books shooting laser beams weren't exactly typical for TES lore before. I've also seen criticism about that before Necrom had even been released. But what would you like to replace that animation with?

Artim_X

The Elder Scrolls has always been one of the more fantastical fantasy worlds (Dragon Breaks, Shouts, Shehai, Spinners, multiple strains of vampirism, multiple variations of werebeasts, The Elder Scrolls themselves, etc.). A magical laser book is just another day in the neighborhood.

ArchMikem

The fact that Magic takes MANY many forms in The Elder Scrolls, then channeling energy using a Tome as a focus isn't all that farfetched. The single player games already had Spell Tomes.

Soarora

The book has lore, there’s a loremasters archive about it I think. It’s basically a notebook because our spells are so beyond typical. They’re eldritch. Eldritch by definition is incomprehensible, how do you cast an incomprehensible spell without a book that needs not comprehend?

TheBardAtTheInn

That'd be pretty difficult lore-wise as the whole crux (heh) of the Arcanist class is that you get your powers through Hermaeus Mora, Prince of Knowledge, by way of an eldritch tome.

Though, they did redesign the physical manifestation of devotion to the holy light of the Aedra to match one of the oldest and most vile daedra-worshipping vampire clans, so I wouldn't be surprised if they changed the arcanist book into a green magic tophat.

Pelanora

Yep reading off a book in battle is pretty darn stupid. Should learn the spells.

Battles are muddy bloody places. No place for books or people reading books.

Syldras

ArchMikem wrote: »

The single player games already had Spell Tomes.

To learn the spell described in them, not to throw them at people, though.

Soarora wrote: »

The book has lore, there’s a loremasters archive about it I think.

Even every weird crownstore item has some lore text, the question is whether it seems plausible for the world of TES. When it comes to that, opinions vary.

Soarora wrote: »

It’s basically a notebook because our spells are so beyond typical. They’re eldritch. Eldritch by definition is incomprehensible, how do you cast an incomprehensible spell without a book that needs not comprehend?

How does one write down things in a notebook that one can't comprehend? If one can write it down, it should also be possible to memorize it? Even if the meaning isn't understood, it's possible to keep syllables or symbols in mind. People who learn to sing a song or speak a prayer in a language they don't understand do that all the time.

BahometZ

I continue to find the various objections to arcanist animations stunningly close-minded, given this is a fantasy setting. Anything can happen. Even lore is mutable.
Is it so hard to imagine that magical books are dangerous?

Diebesgut

... they could give us some of these skin things for the arcanist skills.

Maybe beautiful Anequina orange for my Khajiit family... 🏵️ 📖 🧡

(shocking pink for the high elves )

Syldras

BahometZ wrote: »

I continue to find the various objections to arcanist animations stunningly close-minded,

I hope you don't mean me as, if you look at my comments closely, I have not even given my opinion on these books. All I do is acknowledging the criticism (as I said, OP isn't the only one; in fact there were a lot of such postings after the Necrom reveal stream) and wondering whether and how these books may or may not fit into the existing lore (I don't even have a set opinion about it yet).

BahometZ wrote: »

given this is a fantasy setting. Anything can happen.

I object. A good narration needs plausibility. Just because it's fantasy it doesn't mean one could randomly add anything ("anything" would also mean David Hasselhoff in a Ferrari) - or, of course one could, but people may have good reasons to question it then.

BahometZ wrote: »

Is it so hard to imagine that magical books are dangerous?

I think the main problem for people who dislike these books is that they are shooting laser beams, which indeed was nothing any scripture in TES was ever capable of before.

katanagirl1

I have an arcanist and I don’t have a problem with it. The arcanist is a servant of Hermaeus Mora and his forte is books and knowledge. It doesn’t seem too far fetched that a magical book with words of power could be used in battle. I particularly love how the pages flap around while you wield it.

LalMirchi

Perceptions are very personal. I'm sure the creator of this effect is rather pleased with it as are many players.

I quite like it.

fizzylu

I dislike a lot of the VFX for ESO classes, but I think the arcanist has some of the most out of place looking ones so far. That being said, I also wouldn't expect any of them to get changed just because of that.... I will simply not play the class. Now, if it's something like the sorc pets that have had pages upon pages of player feedback of them legitimately causing issues for players with some health problems and the like (for me the twilight matriarch triggers my misophonia).... then yeah, Zenimax devs should have long done got around to changing it or offering alternatives.

Nharimlur_Finor

My problems are pretty basic.

Necrotic Orb and Soul Trap are hand-cast spells. Yet, my character is required to perform the animation of unstrapping their staff and armimng it before firing off these abilities. I'd be fine with this if those abilities were from the Destruction Staff line.

BahometZ

Syldras wrote: »

BahometZ wrote: »

I continue to find the various objections to arcanist animations stunningly close-minded,

I hope you don't mean me as, if you look at my comments closely, I have not even given my opinion on these books. All I do is acknowledging the criticism (as I said, OP isn't the only one; in fact there were a lot of such postings after the Necrom reveal stream) and wondering whether and how these books may or may not fit into the existing lore (I don't even have a set opinion about it yet).

BahometZ wrote: »

given this is a fantasy setting. Anything can happen.

I object. A good narration needs plausibility. Just because it's fantasy it doesn't mean one could randomly add anything ("anything" would also mean David Hasselhoff in a Ferrari) - or, of course one could, but people may have good reasons to question it then.

BahometZ wrote: »

Is it so hard to imagine that magical books are dangerous?

I think the main problem for people who dislike these books is that they are shooting laser beams, which indeed was nothing any scripture in TES was ever capable of before.

They're not laser beams though, that's a subjective description that people have been applying for some reason. It's a beam of arcane energy. Which is entirely plausible. Templars also have a "laser beam".

I think people are way too invested in their own personal views on an mmo designed for mass consumption.

M1SHAAN

Syldras wrote: »

I think the main problem for people who dislike these books is that they are shooting laser beams, which indeed was nothing any scripture in TES was ever capable of before.

I disagree that there isn't precedent for this. Texts have had physical magical properties in past Elder Scrolls games. For one, the Elder Scrolls themselves usually strike their reader blind.

For an example more directly related to Hermaeus Mora, his Black Books can channel his power in definitively physical ways, as was shown quite explicitly in Skyrim. Given this example, I don't think it's implausible at all that an Arcanist with a Tome holding knowledge and power obtained from Hermaeus Mora could channel all the accumulated magic the book held into a directed energy blast.

The mechanical function of the skill itself also reminds me of the Lightning Storm spell from Skyrim, so there's mechanical precedent for a channeled directable laser beam spell.

While it's (as far as I know) true that there haven't been book lasers in Elder Scrolls lore before, I think there is plenty of existing lore suggesting that their existence, in the context ESO uses them, is unsurprising and congruent with the Elder Scrolls universe.

Of course, that doesn't mean that you have to appreciate the aesthetic. Something can be ugly and lore-friendly at the same time, though (this is where I would cite something / a character as an example for a sick burn, but I couldn't think of anything appropriate. Oh well)

Syldras

BahometZ wrote: »

They're not laser beams though, that's a subjective description that people have been applying for some reason. It's a beam of arcane energy. Which is entirely plausible. Templars also have a "laser beam".

The Templars' beam of arcane energy doesn't shoot from an item, though.

M1SHAAN wrote: »

I disagree that there isn't precedent for this. Texts have had physical magical properties in past Elder Scrolls games. For one, the Elder Scrolls themselves usually strike their reader blind.

But not by emitting a laser, flash of light or arcane energy beam (I can live with that wording). It's the reading of the scrolls that causes, after a longer expose, blindness. While that is indeed a case pf "physical magical properties" of a text (which no one disputes, as the Black Books of Hermaeus Mora are also well-known), it isn't the same procedure as with the Arcanists' grimoire. Unless the Arcanist ties his opponents down and forces them to read a confusing text until their heads explode (I'd love to describe a more grim and Lovecraftian outcome, but since forum rules protect the faint of heart,... ah well) and this is only omitted in the game because it would take too long and might bore the general audience

M1SHAAN wrote: »

The mechanical function of the skill itself also reminds me of the Lightning Storm spell from Skyrim, so there's mechanical precedent for a channeled directable laser beam spell.

That's lightning/electricity, a completely normal, natural force that even exists in the real world, bent by a mage who can control it. It doesn't emit from an item either. Of course the wielder could probably decide to shoot it from an item of his choice for fun, but the item is not neccessary (according to lore). We could debate whether using some physical focus might make the casting easier or strengthen the spell, but the energy still comes from somewhere else, not the item itself.

Big portions of what we officially get about the Arcanist's book is unfortunately rather meaningless, too. As UESP summarizes it:
"Every arcanist's tome is unique. The knowledge in each tome is suited to the mind and soul of each individual arcanist: if one arcanist were to attempt to read another's book, they would find it impossible to learn from. Just like the tomes themselves, the process of becoming an arcanist is equally unique—no arcanist discovers their tome the same way as another, and the bond formed between a tome and its caster is wholly unique."
Wow, it's UNIQUE! Maybe that's indeed enough for some people. I rather care for the whys and the hows.

M1SHAAN wrote: »

Of course, that doesn't mean that you have to appreciate the aesthetic. Something can be ugly and lore-friendly at the same time, though

Jakarn. Also, most apex mounts in the crown store look horrid, even if a lore explanation about their creation is made up.

edward_frigidhands

mdb800 wrote: »

I'm very well aware that if skill styles for class abilities becomes a thing that the most requested feature is people's pets being able to change appearances. However; for the arcanist class, it's a bit much with the tomb appearing in a number of the class skills. It's just hard to not feel that the game is like fortnite or Roblox or something like that when introducing household items as combat tools. I mean it's funny and a little zany, but it'd be nice to have the option for players who don't want to have that to choose an alternative appearance for those class skills.

What separates elder scrolls players from dungeons and dragons players is a visual logic to things. Would you run out into a battlefield to take over a castle or risk your life against the dragon while wielding a book? Goodness, no!
I don't mean that as some sort of jab at players who want to have that, that's their choice, I just want to have the choice to feel more in tune , aesthetically, to the elder scrolls. I want to point out in none of the other entries of the elder scrolls are you able to equip a book and wave it around in front of your enemies screaming, "Hocus pocus" and doing damage. However, you can get one-time use of scrolls that let you temporarily use a spell that you don't know, in oblivion , Morrowind and Skyrim but that's not what this is and that's deliberate because it just doesn't fit the logic and lore of elder scrolls. It's very out of place. again, that's not a jab. We have festivals and celebrations throughout the year that allows us to put polymorphs in costumes that, of course, break the lawyer as well. I just feel that it's very captive and it's unfair to players who are forced to accept that as a default. If they want to try a new class. It just seems up until last year old classes followed some sort of logic to the lore of elder scrolls or at least made an attempt to. This is a deviation of that but I believe that the sensibility of the in-game mechanics is there and it would take very little effort to just add an option take the tomb out of the animations or replace it with something else.

Again, I'm not saying that the tomb animation should be removed from the game. I'm saying that it'd be nice to have an alternative animation available for those who simply cannot stand it, but want to give arcanist a try. I know I'm not the only one who feels that way. I know a number of players who have complained about this very issue and they just don't want to play the arcanist cuz it just feels cartoony because of that and they don't want to look at that.

Just to clarify, you meant to write tome correct?

Pelanora

LaintalAy wrote: »

My problems are pretty basic.

Necrotic Orb and Soul Trap are hand-cast spells. Yet, my character is required to perform the animation of unstrapping their staff and armimng it before firing off these abilities. I'd be fine with this if those abilities were from the Destruction Staff line.

My lightning scribe skill comes from my bow! 🙈 and I'm a sorc!!! 🤣

Taril

I find it odd that there's even a discussion on the validity of an item shooting lasers.

Destruction and Restoration staves are literally sticks that can do all sorts of things, shooting fireballs, lightning beams etc. (Lets not get started on Wabbajack...)

With also texts being given great power... Like you know... The Elder Scrolls that the entire IP is named after (Among various books that can grant power or channel daedric/various spirits powers)

Yet, suddenly a book that directly channels powers from Hermaeus Mora, in a class whos entire spell list is based off of writing runes (Thus, the book is likely filled with various runeforms), is considered strange?

I guess the base suggestion of having an alternate appearance could still work. Something like a generic runeform in place of the tome would be easy enough to do, for those that want it.

Chilly-McFreeze

And I don't think it's odd that people feel that some of these unprecedented skills are out of place.

If you like it, fine. But to some people the suspension of disbelieve is only uphold via internal consistency. And I don't mean by a stretch (one time spell scrolls, destructions staves etc. in comparison to the beam book).

I can't remember, did Miraak use any of the controversial Arcanist skills?

Anyway, the flashy, sci fiy looking skills caused a bit of a push back back when it was released as it's so far from the aesthetics of the other classes which are rooted deeper in already existing elder scrolls lore and which have been more prominent in the single player games. That's huge part of the bone of contention.

Taril

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

And I don't think it's odd that people feel that some of these unprecedented skills are out of place.

Meaning, we can never have anything actually new and can only rehash things from prior titles?

It's not even that the thing is unprecedented in general, just this specific application.

Between staves, enchants, Elder Scrolls, myriads of tomes, Daedric and Aedric artifacts... We've seen plenty of objects used as a source of power.

Yet just because we haven't had skills powered by Hermaeus Mora specifically before it's suddenly "Unprecedented" and "Out of place" when they are finally seen?

Like, this is the same IP that features Sheogorath, who constantly does crazy and whacky stuff like turn people into cheese or curse objects to send people mad (Or prohibit someone from being able to read a book for example)

But all of a sudden, a book channelling the power of a daedric prince is too much?

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Anyway, the flashy, sci fiy looking skills caused a bit of a push back back when it was released as it's so far from the aesthetics of the other classes which are rooted deeper in already existing elder scrolls lore and which have been more prominent in the single player games. That's huge part of the bone of contention.

Though this is more of a separate discussion.

The OP of this thread was specifically talking about the use of the book Like, even despite scrolls being cited as a use of an object to channel the power of a spell. Having a book as a focii is somehow silly.

Like, not "The use of a focii is unprecedented for the IP" which is true. You don't require a Destruction Staff to cast a Destruction spell. In general the IP has made focii not required and the only physical items tending to be Soul Gems (Though various spells and rituals also required reagents or some objects and even locations like altars to channel)

Not the "Laser beams!? In my Fantasy Game!?" which can be a little strange (Though, we've had beams of light before and lightning "Beams" so it's not necessarily a brand new concept) or the bright neon green colouration of skills (Though, we've had a lot of bright neon blue before with Molag Bal and Coldharbour)

Those arguments have more weight behind them than "Who goes and faces a dragon with a book!?" - Like mages haven't gone to face dragons bare handed because spells don't require anything (Also unarmed being a potential fighting style in other games. I was quite fond of punching dragons in the face in Skyrim) or how a stick (Staff) is equally silly when you ignore the magical power it contains.

Having qualms about the overall aethetics of Arcanist skills has some merit. They certainly do stand out compared to many other class skills. But, qualms about the use of a book seems odd in the face of all the many other magical items we've seen throughout all the games.

So yeah, complain about the neon green laser beam the book shoots out, rather than the fact that a book is a focus.

Heren

So, hu, every other visuals in ESO have strong precedents in other elder scrolls games I suppose ? And for more clarity, because the precedent argument is waved around, every visuals in ESO can be found in Arena I suppose ? If not, I truly expect all the people waving the precedent argument to express their dislike of the visuals not present in Arena, just like they express their dislike of the tome-shooting-beam.

Or just, like, drop this silly argument and just focus on their feelings, and just acknoledge they are doing mainly headcanon. Wich is fine, we all do this.

Syldras

Instead of debating over assumptions, it might be more useful to look at the lore sources we actually have about these books. We have two main sources, one is Azandar (especially the Loremaster's Archive), the other a book by Gabriele Benele ("What's an Arcanist?") who doesnt really have a clue actually, but tried so summarize the info she could find.

In the end what an Arcanist does is to summon energy or to materialize things from Apocrypha, in a process that's not that different to what other mages/summoners do (while those summon from other realms). There is no lore explanation to why Arcanists need a book to channel said energy, and even channel it right through this item, while all other mages do not have this necessity (and when I look at ZOS' texts about the topic, they employ some undeniably nice metaphors throughout, which I get the impression from that this might be the main reason they designed it like this, instead of focussing for a in-depth lore explanation).

This is a pity, because I would find that interesting, and if there was a plausible explanation, that would probably help dissipating doubts. But without that, everyone has to make their own decision whether they find it to make sense in the world of TES or not, that one specific type of mage (in the end that's what it is) needs an artifact from a daedric realm to channel energy through that, while all others do not.

I personally don't mind it the way it is now, and would never demand it to be changed. But I do understand the criticism and I see the lore gap that is the reason for this.

SilverIce58

Syldras wrote: »

Instead of debating over assumptions, it might be more useful to look at the lore sources we actually have about these books. We have two main sources, one is Azandar (especially the Loremaster's Archive), the other a book by Gabriele Benele ("What's an Arcanist?") who doesnt really have a clue actually, but tried so summarize the info she could find.

In the end what an Arcanist does is to summon energy or to materialize things from Apocrypha, in a process that's not that different to what other mages/summoners do (while those summon from other realms). There is no lore explanation to why Arcanists need a book to channel said energy, and even channel it right through this item, while all other mages do not have this necessity (and when I look at ZOS' texts about the topic, they employ some undeniably nice metaphors throughout, which I get the impression from that this might be the main reason they designed it like this, instead of focussing for a in-depth lore explanation).

This is a pity, because I would find that interesting, and if there was a plausible explanation, that would probably help dissipating doubts. But without that, everyone has to make their own decision whether they find it to make sense in the world of TES or not, that one specific type of mage (in the end that's what it is) needs an artifact from a daedric realm to channel energy through that, while all others do not.

I personally don't mind it the way it is now, and would never demand it to be changed. But I do understand the criticism and I see the lore gap that is the reason for this.

Do you need it to be explicitly said? It makes sense to me that magic that summons power from Mora/Apocrypha would manifest as a book or tome or scroll of some sort. He is the Daedric Prince of forbidden knowledge with a realm full of books, so wouldn't you think to need one to connect to him better? How better to bind knowledge than in a book? Of course Arcanists' magic would utilize such iconography.

Froil

A spellbook, tome, grimoire etc are all valid weapons in a world if magic regardless of how the magic exists, whether by incantation, will, runes, geometric shapes or anything else.

Syldras

SilverIce58 wrote: »

Do you need it to be explicitly said? It makes sense to me that magic that summons power from Mora/Apocrypha would manifest as a book or tome or scroll of some sort. He is the Daedric Prince of forbidden knowledge with a realm full of books, so wouldn't you think to need one to connect to him better? How better to bind knowledge than in a book? Of course Arcanists' magic would utilize such iconography.

The question is not what would be the best tool for channeling, the question is why a tool would be needed at all, because all other daedric summoners do not need one. If there's an exception to a rule, it calls for an explanation.

JemadarofCaerSalis

Syldras wrote: »

BahometZ wrote: »

They're not laser beams though, that's a subjective description that people have been applying for some reason. It's a beam of arcane energy. Which is entirely plausible. Templars also have a "laser beam".

The Templars' beam of arcane energy doesn't shoot from an item, though.

M1SHAAN wrote: »

I disagree that there isn't precedent for this. Texts have had physical magical properties in past Elder Scrolls games. For one, the Elder Scrolls themselves usually strike their reader blind.

But not by emitting a laser, flash of light or arcane energy beam (I can live with that wording). It's the reading of the scrolls that causes, after a longer expose, blindness. While that is indeed a case pf "physical magical properties" of a text (which no one disputes, as the Black Books of Hermaeus Mora are also well-known), it isn't the same procedure as with the Arcanists' grimoire. Unless the Arcanist ties his opponents down and forces them to read a confusing text until their heads explode (I'd love to describe a more grim and Lovecraftian outcome, but since forum rules protect the faint of heart,... ah well) and this is only omitted in the game because it would take too long and might bore the general audience

M1SHAAN wrote: »

The mechanical function of the skill itself also reminds me of the Lightning Storm spell from Skyrim, so there's mechanical precedent for a channeled directable laser beam spell.

That's lightning/electricity, a completely normal, natural force that even exists in the real world, bent by a mage who can control it. It doesn't emit from an item either. Of course the wielder could probably decide to shoot it from an item of his choice for fun, but the item is not neccessary (according to lore). We could debate whether using some physical focus might make the casting easier or strengthen the spell, but the energy still comes from somewhere else, not the item itself.

Big portions of what we officially get about the Arcanist's book is unfortunately rather meaningless, too. As UESP summarizes it:
"Every arcanist's tome is unique. The knowledge in each tome is suited to the mind and soul of each individual arcanist: if one arcanist were to attempt to read another's book, they would find it impossible to learn from. Just like the tomes themselves, the process of becoming an arcanist is equally unique—no arcanist discovers their tome the same way as another, and the bond formed between a tome and its caster is wholly unique."
Wow, it's UNIQUE! Maybe that's indeed enough for some people. I rather care for the whys and the hows.

M1SHAAN wrote: »

Of course, that doesn't mean that you have to appreciate the aesthetic. Something can be ugly and lore-friendly at the same time, though

Jakarn. Also, most apex mounts in the crown store look horrid, even if a lore explanation about their creation is made up.

To me, one of the things to remember is that ESO takes place hundreds of years before any of the single player games.

This means that things that we might take for granted, such as no arcane books, in those titles might have been nonexistant or in their infancy during ESO's time.

As for coming from a book, sorcerers cast spells that come from their staves, yet in skyrim (and I believe Morrowind and Oblivion) they cast directly from their hands, which implies that the energy is coming from the caster themselves, yet channeled through a physical object. Maybe an apple would work just as well (though, to be fair, I would think an apple would be far to fragile). Arcanists just use books.

So, basically, the arcanist reads the spell, channels it through the book, and thus the light beam shoots out from that book.

I could see this as yet more 'we are learning more and more about arcane energies every day' and at the moment in time ESO is, they still need physical props, while later on, they learn how to not only imbue scrolls with knowledge for others to use, instead of each person having to learn their own versions of the spells, but also how to not rely on actual props to channel the energy.