Hero Engine is failing us.

silky_soft

Yea 12000 to 4000 active players is much more noticeable.

Jaimeh

I personally love the graphics in ESO even if they seem outdated by today's standards. As an aside, I've been trying out T&L and while the game and the graphics are very pretty, I get motion sickness from the movement. I don't know if it's an engine related issue, but I never had that with ESO.

Amottica

Theist_VII wrote: »

Over the last couple of years, it has become quite clear that the Hero Engine is throttling progression of The Elder Scrolls: Online.

We have gone from two quarters of dungeon packs with a chapter and a zone to explore, to a dungeon pack and chapter with a new system, to only an update of a previous one.

Development should be ramping up, not down.

Owned by Microsoft, a company that just moved their flagship IP from Slipspace to Unreal, one can’t help but wonder if ZOS should be moving their assets to Unreal in kind?

https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread/248546/halo-the-new-era-begins/#:~:text=It lacked content, had in,content due to the engine.

"Moving to Unreal Engine has so many benefits, let me explain. First, the engine is a lot more universal for staff to work on, it's the default engine across learning game development and is incredibly powerful and reliable. Keep in mind that Unreal Engine will also be modified to work on the games, much like how The Coalition use Unreal Engine for Gears of War. Speaking of The Coalition, moving to Unreal also allows internal teams to jump on and help with development and content, so expect The Coalition to help Halo Studios in the near future with game development etc, something that would be harder to do with the current Slipspace. So, adding the best experts with Unreal Engine into the game development can do wonders for a game, and no one knows Unreal better than The Coalition. This change will not only improve the visuals of Halo, it will also guarantee faster release content, more content and even more games."

How is it clear that the engine, whichever engine it is, prevents Zenimax from adding more content each year? Seriously, nothing suggests that this is the cause of the reduction in content we receive each year.

It seems much more likely that Zenimax merely chose to reduce the number of work hours they would put into the game. Logically speaking, if Zenimax wanted to continue with the previous cadence of new content, and the engine was holding things back, and changing engines was not a major ordeal, then they would already be working on such a change.

So it seems what is clear is a little cloudy.

Games may update their engine as WoW has, but changing it is a significant task.

LadyGP

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

lThe following post is detailing the move from Slipspace to Unreal 5. That should give you some insight on the experiences of a developer.

None of that address what I said. The reason that the game runs poorly on old PCs and consoles is because of the limitations of those machines, not the engine. ESO is massive because it's a live service game, not something smaller like Halo.

Nobody other than you are talking about old platforms. They aren’t even part of the discussion.

I'm saying that the engine isn't the problem with this game. Your premise is that it's the engine, and I think that's not correct and said what I think it actually is. I based that on dev statements in the past, such as being unable to increase the furniture limit due to old machines.

Another poster also gave their theory on what it is, spaghetti code from early game development. Although they think the engine probably plays a smaller role.

Neither of these things are a problem with using Hero Engine.

The Hero Engine is 1000000% the problem for so many issues in this game.

freespirit

LadyGP wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

lThe following post is detailing the move from Slipspace to Unreal 5. That should give you some insight on the experiences of a developer.

None of that address what I said. The reason that the game runs poorly on old PCs and consoles is because of the limitations of those machines, not the engine. ESO is massive because it's a live service game, not something smaller like Halo.

Nobody other than you are talking about old platforms. They aren’t even part of the discussion.

I'm saying that the engine isn't the problem with this game. Your premise is that it's the engine, and I think that's not correct and said what I think it actually is. I based that on dev statements in the past, such as being unable to increase the furniture limit due to old machines.

Another poster also gave their theory on what it is, spaghetti code from early game development. Although they think the engine probably plays a smaller role.

Neither of these things are a problem with using Hero Engine.

The Hero Engine is 1000000% the problem for so many issues in this game.

But if it's definitely the engine as you claim why can sooo many of us play every day, all types of content and suffer from no issues at all?

Just to note my PC is getting old, it was built in 2017, it cannot run Win11 but can and does run ESO with everything pretty much maxed.

I cannot remember the last time I crashed and very rarely suffer from lag/high ping, it cannot be the engine solely responsible for everyones woes!

SaffronCitrusflower

If people go way back into the forum posts you can find official statements from ZOS devs in 2014-2015 about how heavily they had to modify the Hero engine to work with ESO and that the engine was creating a lot of problems and limitations the devs were not happy with.

So, the question is, why didn't ZOS start the work of putting ESO on an engine they knew could handle the game clear back in 2014-2015? They could have had the big release of the game on the new, stable engine this year for the 10 year anniversary of the game. Now that would have been a celebration! (certainly better than grinding for weeks for 4 style pages)

Erickson9610

Theist_VII wrote: »

WiseSky wrote: »

I dont know of a single MMO that changed its engine, if WOW can use its engine for over 20 years what makes us think anything otherwise.

WoW has seen a significant drop in population, and was hemorrhaging players from Cataclysm up until Dragonflight.

12 million active players in 2011.
4 million active players in 2020.

8 million 15 dollar monthly subscriptions that were thrown away because World of Warcraft refused to move forward. Thank you for that example.

I'd say ESO is doing the right thing to maintain its population. Instead of marketing ESO as strictly an MMORPG, it's marketed as an Elder Scrolls game with online multiplayer, without requiring a mandatory subscription to play the game after it's been purchased. It's also available on consoles, where there is an audience for games like ESO.

The MMORPG scene in general isn't doing well. WoW has failed to "move forward" because they are still catering to the hardcore MMORPG audience — not because they refused to rebuild their game on the Unreal Engine. At least ESO will continue to draw in fans of The Elder Scrolls, even after The Elder Scrolls VI releases.

Elsonso

.

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

If people go way back into the forum posts you can find official statements from ZOS devs in 2014-2015 about how heavily they had to modify the Hero engine to work with ESO and that the engine was creating a lot of problems and limitations the devs were not happy with.

So, the question is, why didn't ZOS start the work of putting ESO on an engine they knew could handle the game clear back in 2014-2015? They could have had the big release of the game on the new, stable engine this year for the 10 year anniversary of the game. Now that would have been a celebration! (certainly better than grinding for weeks for 4 style pages)

Actually, if you go back and look at what they said, they replaced Hero with their own engine incrementally. I dunno if anything is left, but the parts people are complaining about look like they are all ZOS.

SaffronCitrusflower

Elsonso wrote: »

.

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

If people go way back into the forum posts you can find official statements from ZOS devs in 2014-2015 about how heavily they had to modify the Hero engine to work with ESO and that the engine was creating a lot of problems and limitations the devs were not happy with.

So, the question is, why didn't ZOS start the work of putting ESO on an engine they knew could handle the game clear back in 2014-2015? They could have had the big release of the game on the new, stable engine this year for the 10 year anniversary of the game. Now that would have been a celebration! (certainly better than grinding for weeks for 4 style pages)

Actually, if you go back and look at what they said, they replaced Hero with their own engine incrementally. I dunno if anything is left, but the parts people are complaining about look like they are all ZOS.

It says Hero engine when you boot up the game using 64 bit launcher. They have always been pretty clear they heavily modified the engine though, so ya.

Elsonso

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

.

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

If people go way back into the forum posts you can find official statements from ZOS devs in 2014-2015 about how heavily they had to modify the Hero engine to work with ESO and that the engine was creating a lot of problems and limitations the devs were not happy with.

So, the question is, why didn't ZOS start the work of putting ESO on an engine they knew could handle the game clear back in 2014-2015? They could have had the big release of the game on the new, stable engine this year for the 10 year anniversary of the game. Now that would have been a celebration! (certainly better than grinding for weeks for 4 style pages)

Actually, if you go back and look at what they said, they replaced Hero with their own engine incrementally. I dunno if anything is left, but the parts people are complaining about look like they are all ZOS.

It says Hero engine when you boot up the game using 64 bit launcher. They have always been pretty clear they heavily modified the engine though, so ya.

Matt Firor: ESO is a hugely complex technical feat, so we needed literally years to build a stable game client and server infrastructure that was tuned to the needs of the game: tons of players on screen, very tolerant of network latency, etc. We wanted to get started on game basics while this was happening, so we licensed the Hero Engine, because it was perfect for what we needed at that time: easy to get up and running, easy to get art assets into the game and prototype how our content system would work. We then slowly swapped out Hero components with our own custom-tailored engine, starting with the server and network communications, then content creation tools, the client renderer, and the rest of the engine.

tomofhyrule

I'm not gonna claim that the engine is the genesis of all problems since I'm not a game dev, but even I know that you don't just "replace" a game engine without rebuilding the entire game from the ground up. I'm always impressed by the number of armchair developers who think you can bang something like this out in an afternoon by yourself. For those of you who think it's such an easy feat and would love to get this game running on [insert magic engine here] within a week or two, I'm sure ZOS would also love the help: https://www.zenimaxonline.com/careers

I'll admit that ESO is being held back by something, but I think the primary factor is it's desire to support outdated hardware. XB1 and PS4 (and older PCs, but those are harder to pin down to a specific hardware combo) released in 2014. XB1 production has been discontinued since 2020, and PS4s are no longer in production in Japan. We even have the 'pro' versions of both current-gen consoles now, so it's about time that support for the older stuff gets sunset so ZOS can continue to build. The same can also be said for older PCs as well.

I know the Housing thing we got in Q3 was a major disappointment to a lot of people since they mostly wanted increased limits, and that's one of the things they've directly said was not possible due to the older hardware limitations. We've also heard that new animations are tough to add and they have to cannibalize space from other things to get them to work. I'm dying to get a new class, so if we need to just make sure we're playing on hardware that's less than 8 years old to make it work, bring it on.

gamma71

Hero is a Zero

KromedeTheCorrupt

Let's look at this in the most realistic way possible. Nothing is going to be done about it, the game is 10 years old and still making money out the Ying Yang. They have no reason or incentive to fix the game. I'm not bashing them but let's be real their in the business to make money and if it ain't broke (In this particular scenario which means making money) don't fix it. Simple as that it's an business first and foremost you be a lot better off remembering that than lying to yourself that the game is going to get any better when they refuse to drop support for old hardware among the countless other things that are going to be more work than what it's worth to even begin to fix or start working on fixing.

just how it goes with these things enjoy eso while it's still here it be gone before you know it until something new comes around.

Theist_VII

Elsonso wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

.

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

If people go way back into the forum posts you can find official statements from ZOS devs in 2014-2015 about how heavily they had to modify the Hero engine to work with ESO and that the engine was creating a lot of problems and limitations the devs were not happy with.

So, the question is, why didn't ZOS start the work of putting ESO on an engine they knew could handle the game clear back in 2014-2015? They could have had the big release of the game on the new, stable engine this year for the 10 year anniversary of the game. Now that would have been a celebration! (certainly better than grinding for weeks for 4 style pages)

Actually, if you go back and look at what they said, they replaced Hero with their own engine incrementally. I dunno if anything is left, but the parts people are complaining about look like they are all ZOS.

It says Hero engine when you boot up the game using 64 bit launcher. They have always been pretty clear they heavily modified the engine though, so ya.

…starting with the server and network communications, then content creation tools, the client renderer, and the rest of the engine.

His words, not mine. 😂

Must explain why current ESO has the worst positional desyc I have ever seen in any game, don’t believe me? Open ESO on Epic and Steam and stand next to each other, then walk one forward and watch the other screen.

Really enlightening experience.

KromedeTheCorrupt

Theist_VII wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

.

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

If people go way back into the forum posts you can find official statements from ZOS devs in 2014-2015 about how heavily they had to modify the Hero engine to work with ESO and that the engine was creating a lot of problems and limitations the devs were not happy with.

So, the question is, why didn't ZOS start the work of putting ESO on an engine they knew could handle the game clear back in 2014-2015? They could have had the big release of the game on the new, stable engine this year for the 10 year anniversary of the game. Now that would have been a celebration! (certainly better than grinding for weeks for 4 style pages)

Actually, if you go back and look at what they said, they replaced Hero with their own engine incrementally. I dunno if anything is left, but the parts people are complaining about look like they are all ZOS.

It says Hero engine when you boot up the game using 64 bit launcher. They have always been pretty clear they heavily modified the engine though, so ya.

…starting with the server and network communications, then content creation tools, the client renderer, and the rest of the engine.

His words, not mine. 😂

Must explain why current ESO has the worst positional desyc I have ever seen in any game, and why the game has had persistant health desync skills. You still can’t use Silver Bolts and Snipe with making someone’s health bar play tricks on them.

Chopping up parts of the original engine and changing things around worked wonders on launch when you couldn’t travel to the main cities of towns without crashing.

They made 2 billion last year off eso do people really believe they about to fix anything ? Eso is literally printing them money in the shape it is now why the *** would they waste time fixing it LMAO

Look I wish they would fix it but lets be real they aint gone do that this is a business not a playground

Sluggy

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

...
So, the question is, why didn't ZOS start the work of putting ESO on an engine they knew could handle the game clear back in 2014-2015? They could have had the big release of the game on the new, stable engine this year for the 10 year anniversary of the game. Now that would have been a celebration! (certainly better than grinding for weeks for 4 style pages)

It was a game they had already worked on for five years up to that point. The time to use a different engine was four to five years previous to that point. You don't finish a product and then swap technologies and start all over the eve before release. That's suicide. MMOs are notoriously bad at making money. With so much as risk you want to hedge your bets as much as you can and there aren't exactly a lot of engines on the market when it comes to games of this scale and size.

It doesn't matter what engine they use. Using Unreal, or Frostbite, or friggin' Ogre3D (there's a name I haven't thought of in a long time lol) or even a custom rolled one isn't going to magically make these issues go away. They still have a LOT of code to write and a lot of systems to implement on top of all of that. And in that space bugs and limitations will exist. What makes the difference pretty much always boils down to policy and how they prioritize what to deal with. THAT'S what's failing us. Always has been. And we know this. We point it out almost every day on the forums.

fizzylu

Theist_VII wrote: »

WiseSky wrote: »

I dont know of a single MMO that changed its engine, if WOW can use its engine for over 20 years what makes us think anything otherwise.

WoW has seen a significant drop in population, and was hemorrhaging players from Cataclysm up until Dragonflight.

That.... also has nothing to do with the engine. If anything, WoW's engine has been proven to be better and capable of more right out the gate along with evolving more than the engine ESO has. WoW loses players because Blizzard simply refuses to change their approach to the games content/features, especially endgame-- which surprise, is similar to what ESO has been experiencing for the last few chapters now (even worse, we barely even get actual content at this point period).... and I think anyone who can't admit that ESO has been losing players, or at least struggles to keep them playing consistently, is in just complete denial of the obvious for whatever reason(s).

Aliniel

https://web.archive.org/web/20120527065323/http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2012/05/25/why-the-elder-scrolls-online-isn-39-t-using-heroengine.aspx

You licensed HeroEngine a long time ago. What role did the Hero Engine play in the development of ESO?

We started ZeniMax Online from scratch, with no employees and no technology. We had to build everything ourselves. It takes a long time to write game engines, especially MMO engines, which are inherently more complicated than typical single-player ones. So, we decided to license the HeroEngine to give us a headstart. It was a useful tool for us to use to prototype areas and game design concepts, and it provided us the ability to get art into the game that was visible, so we could work on the game’s art style. Our plan is for ESO to be a world class MMO, with the most advanced social features found in any MMO to date – so while we were prototyping the game on HeroEngine, we were simultaneously developing our own client, server, and messaging layer that were specifically designed with ESO in mind. Think of HeroEngine as a whiteboard for us – a great tool to get some ideas in the game and start looking at them while the production engine was in development.

Based on this, the Hero Engine was used for development process for prototyping. Not directly for the game itself. Of course, proper acknowledgements need to be included in the game. Maybe they even used some parts of it. Who knows. Not important either.

Anyway, as many have already said - one does not simply replace a game engine. It's like replacing the foundations and construction of a skyscraper. Good luck with that.

Elsonso

Theist_VII wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

…starting with the server and network communications, then content creation tools, the client renderer, and the rest of the engine.

His words, not mine. 😂

Yes, I laughed at that when I read it, too.

robpr

Anything but UE5. Sure, eye candy but tanks performance on befiest of pcs and bloats the disk space. Current ESO can more or less run on a potato and weighs 70ish GB. This will swell twice on UE for maximum looks.

Benzux

Ignoring the part of this post that has no idea what genuine game development is like, do you really think the engine of all things is why we're getting less content? I am fairly sure that ZoS announced that they would be dropping the Q3 DLC a year or two ago in favour of focusing on base game improvements and bug fixes, rather than strictly new content, and if my memory serves me correctly, this was in fact something requested by the players.

We're not getting less DLC content because of the engine (????), we're getting less DLC because players wanted the game to work better and ZoS listened to feedback, making the decision to focus on that instead.

Aggrovious

Sounds more like a licensing agreement issue