Ghostly Embrace and Necomath, part one

necro_the_crafter · October 10

Here, I recorded down a week of my gamplay on live, to do some math with ghostly embrace.

I will not talk about damage numbers, effects duration, mana costs, etc.
I wanted to look at spell's efficency, and probability of hitting each individual circle as well as all 3 circles with one cast on a player in PVP.

Results:

Iterpretation:

Lets adress 6% rate of hitting a strike (3/3 hit with one cast, animation looks like you are throwind a bowling ball, so i would refer to 3/3 hit as a strike).
Yea its that low for me. Some can argue that its l2p moment, but even if you better then me on the necromancer by tenfold, its still isnt a 100%. All the other classes doesnt have such
inconviniances. When you spend a resourse on the ability, you expcet an outcome. If you casted Haunting Curse on target, it will pop twice, if not cleansed. If you cast a Burning Talons you will
Root if targets arent immune to snares, deal Direct Damage, apply DoT for a targets in the area. And for Ghostly embrace its not true. Ghostly embrace tooltip is lying. Whatever is written there
wont happen, unless - target is backed against a wall, or moving without any bonus movement speed strait on ghostly embrace vector, or roll backwards strait on ghostly embrace vector. Which
is for me specificly is 6% of all the use cases of this ability in PvP. What is more likely to happen is you hitting first patch only. less likely is first-second if im meele, second-third if im ranged.

Conclusion:

As for now, cc effects on each patch actively help to hit a subsequent patch. First slows to help land second, second roots to help hit third, and even like that, you able to hit a strike in super
niche scenarios. And in the next patch with cc removed chanse to hit a strike would be even lower. No ability in the game is a biggest gamble that this one. At this point ZoS can make it a
single patch that is random out of three outcomes,reduce cost by 66%,, and it would be better, since we would have 100% chanse of hitting 1/3 on every cast. Current ability design is simply
something that shouldnt belong in this game, as it will always be replaced by a spell that has a predictable outcome.

Feel free to debunk me on my casts/hits counting, always open for discussion. If any math nerd is readind this, feel free to correct me if Im wrong in my calculations. And if any of ZoS devs are reading this, feel free to fix this mess and make Ghostly Embrace a solid, viable option, by removing all the clunk and randomness tied to this ability.

CameraBeardThePirate · October 10

This is where spreadsheet balancing falls apart.

Necromancer's entire kit is unreliable. There is no reason their damage numbers should be identical to other classes when their abilities are buggy, require a corpse, or simply have terrible targeting.

necro_the_crafter · October 10

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

This is where spreadsheet balancing falls apart.

Necromancer's entire kit is unreliable. There is no reason their damage numbers should be identical to other classes when their abilities are buggy, require a corpse, or simply have terrible targeting.

A shame to see them adress damage numbers and effects applied, while its base mechanics are still awful and reqire a rework instead. "Niche scenario" is so niche in fact, its happens only a 6 times out of 100.

Aldoss · October 10

I posted earlier this PTS and it was ignored by the devs.

The irony is that ghostly embrace is actually the best it's ever been on live, but only because it's actively broken. I find it hilarious that the ability made it to live because the skills is SO BAD, no one tested it, even the devs!

Live Ghostly Embrace actually feels like a good risk to reward right now because the damage on the tooltip is the damage it deals. It bypasses battle spirit, armor, and block. It's like oblivion damage.

The new version is trash. Awful design.

It should never be balanced against skills like Talons or Acid Spray. They are not even comparable. It deserves to have way more damage attached to it for being such the expensive gamble it is. It doesn't even cc anymore which is huge slap in the face considering what Talons gets.

necro_the_crafter · October 10

Aldoss wrote: »

I posted earlier this PTS and it was ignored by the devs.

The irony is that ghostly embrace is actually the best it's ever been on live, but only because it's actively broken. I find it hilarious that the ability made it to live because the skills is SO BAD, no one tested it, even the devs!

Live Ghostly Embrace actually feels like a good risk to reward right now because the damage on the tooltip is the damage it deals. It bypasses battle spirit, armor, and block. It's like oblivion damage.

The new version is trash. Awful design.

It should never be balanced against skills like Talons or Acid Spray. They are not even comparable. It deserves to have way more damage attached to it for being such the expensive gamble it is. It doesn't even cc anymore which is huge slap in the face considering what Talons gets.

I agree.
But would much rather prefer a functional ability that is actualy does what is stated in the tooltip 100% of the time, and its only can be achieved if they change how ability function mechanicly. Rework the fundamentals. Made it 1 aoe targetable circle like elemental ring, that deals Direct Damage+applies DoT+apllies Root to >=2 targets + spanws a corpse if enemy is hit. Or make it stick to target creating each circle on targets current location with 0.333 delay that it has, to ensure its always hit, otherwise it wont worth the gamble anymore.

But if they want to keep it the way it is, and actually remove the cc, based on my expirience, it needs either 56% damage buff and/or 56% cost reduction to justify 44% hitrate.

BasP · October 10

Yeah, it's quite baffling that you consistently have to hit a target with the first and second patch in order for the Ghostly Embrace to deal comparable damage to Acid Spray (which apparently may happen 32% of the time).

At the moment each patch deals 50% of the damage of other AOE spammables. Maybe that could be increased to 75% instead? I suppose that would make the skill a bit OP if you hit targets with all 3 patches, but yeah, those odds are pretty slim.

Deimus · October 10

The live version of the skill is much more useful than what it will be next patch. Unfortunately ZOS isn't responding to the feedback of making all 3 patches have the DoT or being cumulative. As it is now Ghostly Embrace will have enjoyed a nice 3 months of use before going back to collecting dust while it is replaced with a scribed skill.

I've been getting great results from the live version in PvP. I mainly use it when my target boxes themselves in trying to use LoS or has their back to a wall so I can hit them with 2 or 3 patches. The class really is a casino, image how you would've done on those clips if your skills were actually doing consistent damage to your targets.

It's cruel fate that the class finally gets a sticky DoT (damage that should be reliable) and it's tied to the most unreliable way to apply it making it essentially another ground AoE DoT. The sticky DoT should be on GLS or Boneyard.

necro_the_crafter · October 11

Also want to clarify some definitions.
TESo has a skills that is a gamble in nature, and they are usualy channeled or have a cast time attach.
For example sorcs Dark Deal - it has a channel time in which you are vulnerable to interrupts, but if you manage to cover your cast you may get away with channel and benefit from the ability - get a resourse back, get a heal and a set of offensive buffs.
Dark Deal is a risk-reward - you risk by putting yourself in a vulnerable state to then benfit from ability effects.

Ghostly Embrace isnt technicly a gamble, since there is no risks involved, only risk is dumping 4k mana on the ground for no benefit at all. And its not simmilar to Burning Talons or Lotus Fan since theese abilities primary functions isnt plain damage, Talons- AoE root, Fan - gapcloser.

What its actually comparable to now is Arcanists flail, that also have a delay (much less then necromancer 0.3 cast time) but after a delay you have a narrow hitbox that apply everything that is stated on the tooltip - AoE Damage, root, heal, ink debuff, and a single crux. Gravegrasp is also a linear vector AoE that deals 3 instanses of damage separated by 0.333 sec delay (average reaction time is 0.25 for average human, or 0.19 for gamer, source - ergonomics, which is makes every player able to react to each individual circle), instances of damage happen on different location, not all 3 happen on all of the AoE, apply chilled, DoT, and spawn a corpse. So, based on previous calculation lets take a 32% chanse of hitting 2 patches and compare it to the Flail:

Flail : standart AoE damage, heal, root, ink, crux = 5 different effects applied to a target hit.
GE(PTS version): 2 halfs of standart AoE damage, chilled, DoT = 32% of 3 different effects applied to a target hit.
GE(if cc pressure is kept as it is on live): 2 halfs of standart AoE damage, chilled, DoT, slow, root = 32% of 5 effects to a target hit.

And Flail and GE both involved in class-specific resourse mini game. But crux and corpses are really REALLY different in nature. While Arcs can cast skills that consume crux for less power without any crux built, Necros physicly cannot use a half of their kit if no corpses are present. So its much more essential for necro to have a steady supply of corpses, otherwise your abilities like tethers or potency would fire at all vs arcs using a weaker version without a crux? which is why 19% to hit last circle - i.e. spawn a corpse is BAD.19% means that ability requires 5 cast on average to spawn a corpse - which is 5 gcds and 20k mana cost. Blighted Bones require 2k stam, and 2.5s to build up which is also 5 gcds.

And while Flail is also inconvinient to land, arcs have a nice single target CC (paralise or charm) to setup for it vs necro having NONE. And for that reason theese both spells fall to a skillshot categories, skills that require you predicting enemy player next move or making an adequate setup in order to land. Skills that should be better than your average spammable AoE, because of what is stated in previous sentense. They cannot be balanced as something that is convinient to hit.

Suggestion for ZoS:

MAKE A SPREADSHEET FOR A SKILLSHOT TYPE ABILITIES!

To be real tho:

1. Make it a reliable AoE spammable like impulses. Strip overall ability damage output to a 60% of Standart AoE damage BUT with strong short sticky DoT and make it spawn corpses.
2. OR load it back up with CC pressure to justify ability being a skillshot and also do something about its cost, since its to expensive for how often its misses and how extreamly rare niche situations that its good at.
3. OR make its direct damage increase in power with each patch connect, like if you hit first - second should deal 50% more damage, and third should hit for 100% more damage if both previous connect.
4. OR Add another Primary Function to this skill like root or stun or debuff, AND give necro a reliable setup for that skill.

necro_the_crafter · October 11

necro_the_crafter wrote: »

X - ability power
Y - ability convinience.
Dotted line - Meta Event Horizon (MEH), ability/passive/set that falls behind it never gets picked again for PvP.

1 - Undeath paassive. Its power always otweights inconvinionce it causes. "No brainer" pick for anyone who wants to become more tanky. For everyone basicly.
3 - Scalding rune. Generaly weak ability that is also hard to hit. You never see it in PvP.
2.1 - Live Ghostly Embrace. It barely picks behind a MEH, because its have a potential to aplly both CC pressure and decent damage.
2.2 - PTS Ghostly Embrace. Since half of this ability potential is lost now, it fall behind the MEH again. So it just wont be used ever again, until future improves.

Gonna post ih here also.

Aldoss · October 11

@ZOS_Kevin, Please tell us that you sent feedback over to the devs.

Ghostly, at the very least, cannot lose its cc effects.

Burning Talons doesn't need to be aimed, has no delay, has a cc, deals direct damage, deals damage over time, AND gives a synergy that deals extra damage.

As stated by @necro_the_crafter: Flail needs to be aimed, has a short delay, has a cc, has a high chance to deal direct damage, generates crux that sticks to the user, provides a debuff (abyssal ink), has a heal, and deals increased damage to enemies that are inked, AND costs less than Ghostly.

This is pretty laughable.

Ghostly Embrace must be aimed, has a delay, has no cc, has a chance of applying chill (a status effect that deals 10% of the direct damage of Talons), has a chance of applying damage over time, and has a very low chance of dropping a corpse.

The CC must come back and the reward for the use of this skill needs to be addressed.

There's no time left before the longest gap in game updates. Please do not destroy this skill and then go silent.

Joy_Division · October 11

One thing I have noticed with ZOS's new skills is that they are way too elaborate and convoluted, often involving a mini-game of sorts, or assume the user can predict the future like Nostradamus.

DK Talons: Press buttons. Enemies get rooted, damage, and provide allies with synergy. End Done. nothing else. Simple. And, effective and FUN.

DK Stone Giant. Press button, cast time (yuck). Low physical damage. Get weird debris field. Press button again (cast time) do more low physical damage. Inflicts new (low) damage taken debuff for 5 seconds. Press button again (cast time), more low physical damage. Press button again (cast time), more low physical damage and (finally) a 2.5 second stun.

Effective? Never been killed by this ability. Fun? People I know call it "poop fist."

There is little that is straightforward in the Nerco kit: the burst heal gives you defile, the spammable has to be cast thrice to get it's full effect, the DoT is a weird summon, the delayed burst can be intercepted/stunned by enemies, it's got to play around with corpses' just to get the same DPS as other classes, Grave Lord's Sacrifice is the pinnacle of unnecessarily complicated ESO skills. Whatever happened to just summoning a bunch of dead stuff, a very basic mechanic, which is every other fantasy game's theme for a Necromancer? Or giving us a Scythe skill that feels good and fun to use?

I wish the devs would just put away their spreadsheet and remember that this game is fast paced, requiring a lot of mobility when they consider updates to abilities.

necro_the_crafter · October 11

Joy_Division wrote: »

One thing I have noticed with ZOS's new skills is that they are way too elaborate and convoluted, often involving a mini-game of sorts, or assume the user can predict the future like Nostradamus.

DK Talons: Press buttons. Enemies get rooted, damage, and provide allies with synergy. End Done. nothing else. Simple. And, effective and FUN.

DK Stone Giant. Press button, cast time (yuck). Low physical damage. Get weird debris field. Press button again (cast time) do more low physical damage. Inflicts new (low) damage taken debuff for 5 seconds. Press button again (cast time), more low physical damage. Press button again (cast time), more low physical damage and (finally) a 2.5 second stun.

Effective? Never been killed by this ability. Fun? People I know call it "poop fist."

There is little that is straightforward in the Nerco kit: the burst heal gives you defile, the spammable has to be cast thrice to get it's full effect, the DoT is a weird summon, the delayed burst can be intercepted/stunned by enemies, it's got to play around with corpses' just to get the same DPS as other classes, Grave Lord's Sacrifice is the pinnacle of unnecessarily complicated ESO skills. Whatever happened to just summoning a bunch of dead stuff, a very basic mechanic, which is every other fantasy game's theme for a Necromancer? Or giving us a Scythe skill that feels good and fun to use?

I wish the devs would just put away their spreadsheet and remember that this game is fast paced, requiring a lot of mobility when they consider updates to abilities.

Yeah, I was one amongst the many who asked for meele stamina stone giant skill, a lot of people wanted to smash enemies faces with a giant rock fist to the face up close and personal. And instead we got a niche group buff that is rarely seen even in PvE. But thanks akatosh DK's toolkit is pretty much complete even without "poop rock"

Also I rarly see this mentioned, but peeople for the most part play videogames for FUN. And roleplay games specificly to enjoy a fantasy. And how chosen class feels inside that game is actualy a very big part of players overall expirience. Not sure for other people, but when I posting a suggestion for a rework, I dont expect that dev will do exactly as I ask, all I express is how I would like to feel my chosen class play, to give an insight into a players perspective.

And there is nothing more frustrating to me, then when a lot of people come here and report on the same issue and it simply doesnt get adressed or in case of necro, sometimes made even worse. And sometimes we get plain stuff like timers increase and named buffs in random places, credit to that, but major issues just slide from patch to patch unattended and unresolved or even worsend.

Urvoth · October 12

Aldoss wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin, Please tell us that you sent feedback over to the devs.

Ghostly, at the very least, cannot lose its cc effects.

Burning Talons doesn't need to be aimed, has no delay, has a cc, deals direct damage, deals damage over time, AND gives a synergy that deals extra damage.

As stated by @necro_the_crafter: Flail needs to be aimed, has a short delay, has a cc, has a high chance to deal direct damage, generates crux that sticks to the user, provides a debuff (abyssal ink), has a heal, and deals increased damage to enemies that are inked, AND costs less than Ghostly.

This is pretty laughable.

Ghostly Embrace must be aimed, has a delay, has no cc, has a chance of applying chill (a status effect that deals 10% of the direct damage of Talons), has a chance of applying damage over time, and has a very low chance of dropping a corpse.

The CC must come back and the reward for the use of this skill needs to be addressed.

There's no time left before the longest gap in game updates. Please do not destroy this skill and then go silent.

Also there's the new Lotus Fan which gap closes, does AOE damage, applies AOE minor vuln, AND applies an instant, AOE dot. Both Talons and the new Lotus Fan are mechanically better AND have far better effects than Ghostly Embrace.

necro_the_crafter · October 12

Urvoth wrote: »

Also there's the new Lotus Fan which gap closes, does AOE damage, applies AOE minor vuln, AND applies an instant, AOE dot. Both Talons and the new Lotus Fan are mechanically better AND have far better effects than Ghostly Embrace.

At least they can adjust AoE of each patch to overlap, so whole middle patch overlaps with first and third

Tis way we have much wider sweetspot in the middle, where all 3 patches hit. Also patches deserve a speed up to 0.25sec down from 0.333sec, with first appearing immidiatly, this way whole ability would fit in timeframe of 1 GCD.

necro_the_crafter · October 12

ALSO:

Zenimax Online Studio? Is it okay? Why is universlly accessible 2 piece item set with near 99% uptime has more damage than class uniqe summon???