In light of shadowy disguise nerf

LittlePinkDot

I have a request. Can you please buff the dark cloak morph now that shadowy disguise is nerfed.

I know dark cloak has a passive minor protection... But can we get a timed buff after activation... How about minor force for 20 seconds.. that would be nice.

Vaqual

Dark cloak needs a visual buff too. The "stand your ground" morph shouldn't have a crouching down animation. The Vigor or Blur generic animation would be better. The particle effects are OK.

Djennku

Nerf? What nerf? It just got mega buffed.

LittlePinkDot

Djennku wrote: »

Nerf? What nerf? It just got mega buffed.

I don't like toggles.

But there should be more benefits for the non invisibility morph.

React

I'd just like them to make it so concealed weapon works with either morph. Kind of silly that in order to use the mag cost spammable, you are FORCED to use invisibility.

Sluggy

React wrote: »

I'd just like them to make it so concealed weapon works with either morph. Kind of silly that in order to use the mag cost spammable, you are FORCED to use invisibility.

This is a tough one for me. Dark Cloak has an absurdly powerful heal and attaching a large source of damage doesn't seem like the best idea. At the same time I also agree that it's weird that the main spammable is so directly tied to the other morph which also provides... you know... invisibility. Something arguably stronger than any heal.

Djennku

React wrote: »

I'd just like them to make it so concealed weapon works with either morph. Kind of silly that in order to use the mag cost spammable, you are FORCED to use invisibility.

Not really. Just pair concealed weapon with twisting/refreshing path. Every second you are on the path it refreshes that buff, but iirc they changed that entire skill.

Djennku

React wrote: »

I'd just like them to make it so concealed weapon works with either morph. Kind of silly that in order to use the mag cost spammable, you are FORCED to use invisibility.

Ok, I hadn't seen the most recent change to it. From what they've mentioned, pretty sure NB stealth is getting a bit revamped so you might just have to keep an eye on things in the coming updates.

LittlePinkDot

Sluggy wrote: »

React wrote: »

I'd just like them to make it so concealed weapon works with either morph. Kind of silly that in order to use the mag cost spammable, you are FORCED to use invisibility.

This is a tough one for me. Dark Cloak has an absurdly powerful heal and attaching a large source of damage doesn't seem like the best idea. At the same time I also agree that it's weird that the main spammable is so directly tied to the other morph which also provides... you know... invisibility. Something arguably stronger than any heal.

Are you confusing dark cloak with healthy offering? Dark cloak heal isn't that strong since it scales with health. Its a PvE tank skill, so adding minor force shouldn't be that big of a deal.
I just feel adding minor force would make it a better option for PvP instead of every single NB using shadowy disguise. As it stands right now I'm considering switching cloak entirely for Ulfsilds contingency with minor force, HoT and damage for a delayed burst skill, but I'll have to wear mighty Chudan monster helm set for major resolve. And use Temporal Guard ultimate on the back bar so I can at least have minor protection on 1 bar.

I'm basically mostly using dark cloak because it's the only skill on my bar that can proc the passive for major resolve. Would be nice if it had a little more oomph.

Sluggy

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Are you confusing dark cloak with healthy offering? Dark cloak heal isn't that strong since it scales with health. Its a PvE tank skill, so adding minor force shouldn't be that big of a deal.
I just feel adding minor force would make it a better option for PvP instead of every single NB using shadowy disguise. As it stands right now I'm considering switching cloak entirely for Ulfsilds contingency with minor force, HoT and damage for a delayed burst skill, but I'll have to wear mighty Chudan monster helm set for major resolve. And use Temporal Guard ultimate on the back bar so I can at least have minor protection on 1 bar.

I'm basically mostly using dark cloak because it's the only skill on my bar that can proc the passive for major resolve. Would be nice if it had a little more oomph.

Nope, I'm talking about Dark Cloak. The heal over time morph. Being predicated on high health is exactly what makes it so strong. Depending on the build I'm running I'll see up to 6k ticks without critting every second! Plus you can piggy back it so that as soon as it ticks you recast it for a double-dip. It's very cost-efficient in certain scenarios and when paired with Healthy Offering, Spihoning Attacks, and a Shield it can effectively turn any Nightblade into a troll tank. Admittedly, it has less use when 1vXing where movement is the name of the game but even then it still just another source of healing™. In Keep fights you often have plenty of chances to stop moving and catch a big heal or two and when 1v1 it basically makes you immortal. The best part it that it doesn't require sacrificing damage at all. I can have my 45k hp from glyphs and attributes and there's no need to run anything except damage sets.

They only real sacrifice I make in terms of damage is that loss of that 10% on my spammable. I'm not a vampire and I don't run invisble pots. Not that they would be that useful since I'm brawling anyway. I kind think maybe they ought to just do away with the effect and do something actually interesting: Make it's max mag coefficient scale 20% better. Then you'd actually have a reason to want to stack some more mag and less health.

LittlePinkDot

Sluggy wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Are you confusing dark cloak with healthy offering? Dark cloak heal isn't that strong since it scales with health. Its a PvE tank skill, so adding minor force shouldn't be that big of a deal.
I just feel adding minor force would make it a better option for PvP instead of every single NB using shadowy disguise. As it stands right now I'm considering switching cloak entirely for Ulfsilds contingency with minor force, HoT and damage for a delayed burst skill, but I'll have to wear mighty Chudan monster helm set for major resolve. And use Temporal Guard ultimate on the back bar so I can at least have minor protection on 1 bar.

I'm basically mostly using dark cloak because it's the only skill on my bar that can proc the passive for major resolve. Would be nice if it had a little more oomph.

Nope, I'm talking about Dark Cloak. The heal over time morph. Being predicated on high health is exactly what makes it so strong. Depending on the build I'm running I'll see up to 6k ticks without critting every second! Plus you can piggy back it so that as soon as it ticks you recast it for a double-dip. It's very cost-efficient in certain scenarios and when paired with Healthy Offering, Spihoning Attacks, and a Shield it can effectively turn any Nightblade into a troll tank. Admittedly, it has less use when 1vXing where movement is the name of the game but even then it still just another source of healing™. In Keep fights you often have plenty of chances to stop moving and catch a big heal or two and when 1v1 it basically makes you immortal. The best part it that it doesn't require sacrificing damage at all. I can have my 45k hp from glyphs and attributes and there's no need to run anything except damage sets.

They only real sacrifice I make in terms of damage is that loss of that 10% on my spammable. I'm not a vampire and I don't run invisble pots. Not that they would be that useful since I'm brawling anyway. I kind think maybe they ought to just do away with the effect and do something actually interesting: Make it's max mag coefficient scale 20% better. Then you'd actually have a reason to want to stack some more mag and less health.

I don't care about mag much. I would rather they make dark cloak cost stamina and scale with stamina.
She's a wood elf stamblade. I use suprise attack, not concealed weapon. And I switched to relentless focus since I had to put it on the back bar to make room for camo hunter on the front bar.

The shadow barrier passive is a pain in the ass to have to proc every 20 seconds with dark cloak when dark cloak costs so much mag. I forget to do it because my burst heal is healing soul burst with minor resolve so I don't have to slot vigor for minor resolve.

If I got mighty chudan I could have major resolve on all the time and use ulfsilds contingency with the bleed focus script when the patch drops so it costs stamina and not magicka. Use the sages remedy signature for a small HoT that would replace Dark Cloaks HoT and use the Minor Force affix script.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Here is a buff idea, since it gets stronger if you stand still apply Major Protection when your moving during the duration.

React

Djennku wrote: »

React wrote: »

I'd just like them to make it so concealed weapon works with either morph. Kind of silly that in order to use the mag cost spammable, you are FORCED to use invisibility.

Not really. Just pair concealed weapon with twisting/refreshing path. Every second you are on the path it refreshes that buff, but iirc they changed that entire skill.

That isn't how the skill works.

Tommy_The_Gun

Djennku wrote: »

Nerf? What nerf? It just got mega buffed.

I suggest testing it on PTS. "Toggles" in ESO just don't work well and often, they don't work at all. PTS can be laggy and from my testing cloak actually often falls victim to server performance and "bad coding". Cloak was clearly never meant to be a "toggle" and things that interact with it were also never meant to interact with "a toggle" invisibility. The way it behaves on PTS, clearly points this out.

Cyro & IC on live server can be even worse than PTS, so cloak will be kinda unusable most of the time, making it kinda far too unreliable. Vamp stealth passive or invisibly potions & crouch stealth will be actually a better option, but at this point I think I might as well roll stam sorc or warden. As for PvE, sneaking past enemies will also be clunky as heck.

Speaking of Shadow Cloak & morphs, I never understood why they changed their design in a 1st place. NB used to have 2 "cloak" morphs - one offensive & one defensive. Why they converted defensive morph into a mediocre wanna-be-vigor type of weak HoT ? I will probably never understand that.

BlueRaven

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Djennku wrote: »

Nerf? What nerf? It just got mega buffed.

I suggest testing it on PTS. "Toggles" in ESO just don't work well and often, they don't work at all. PTS can be laggy and from my testing cloak actually often falls victim to server performance and "bad coding". Cloak was clearly never meant to be a "toggle" and things that interact with it were also never meant to interact with "a toggle" invisibility. The way it behaves on PTS, clearly points this out.

Cyro & IC on live server can be even worse than PTS, so cloak will be kinda unusable most of the time, making it kinda far too unreliable. Vamp stealth passive or invisibly potions & crouch stealth will be actually a better option, but at this point I think I might as well roll stam sorc or warden. As for PvE, sneaking past enemies will also be clunky as heck.

Speaking of Shadow Cloak & morphs, I never understood why they changed their design in a 1st place. NB used to have 2 "cloak" morphs - one offensive & one defensive. Why they converted defensive morph into a mediocre wanna-be-vigor type of weak HoT ? I will probably never understand that.

I think they wanted to give nbs a self heal for tanking in pve. But they continue to make nbs more and more Inferior for pve activities. Regular cloak was one of the last (“well at least they are good for heists in pve”) type tools left, and now they are taking that away.

It’s annoying as stealth was my favorite way to play games, and I have long since stopped playing pvp, but now it’s being nerfed because some pvp players won’t load a detection pot on their bar.

Foxtrot39

They could have just fixed the thing by giving Battle spirit a ramping cost increase or severely increase cost to cloak

Reason I use cloak is for RP activities such as assassination and thieving, PVP it only took a player with a detect pot to never know if you got spotted or not as there is no feedback against player seeing you until attacked

Are combat perma cloaker annoying ? yes but usualy its trolls using this

Any good NB using cloak is either to break away a fight they lost the advantage, move below the sneak detection range to perform a bomb/gank combo or line up a powerfull crit mid combat with a free "dodge"

They rely on sneaking a lot more with a massive movement speed, given to any player that are vampires, as it remove the sneak speed penalty with mostly some broken proc set doing all the damage for them

Most players that aren't good just crouch and spam it when they feel another player are getting too close for comfort to AVOID a fight

Tommy_The_Gun

Foxtrot39 wrote: »

They could have just fixed the thing by giving Battle spirit a ramping cost increase or severely increase cost to cloak

The issue is that with something like this, how would one tell a difference who is PvP NB & is ganking and who is PvE NB and is avoiding PvP ? Oddly, I think that out of the possible outcomes, Ramping Cost would have been far worse.

Perma-cloak (if it exists at all in a large scale) was never really an issue. I am not sure why people "weaponized it" to serve as an ammo for the nerf. Most players who stayed invisible for long were pretty much only doing it to avoid PvP in a 1st place and not to gank people. Gankers & Bombers were never perma-cloakers.

The truth is that potential to stay "permanently invisible" always existed, but it required so much investment into mag recovery that no one bothered with it. What people were doing however (and will be doing) is using crouch-stealth as a way to stay "permanently" in stealth. Cloak was used with combination with that so it was just a 3 or 5 casts to move away and then transition to crouch-stealth. And it is not like it is going away - it will be still used like that (if 50/50 RNG will be on your side when game lags).

Also, during this PTS, a lot of people realised that they can use equilibrium/siphoning to stay in cloak (not in crouch stealth) for a very long time with less investment. It was always possible, but no one was doing it since cloak was a castable skill and you still had even base mag recovery (like 500 or 600) - that was enough to cast cloak enough times so it was actually usable, even on a stamina build (as your mag recovery was still ticking in the background).

It is just weird to me that ZOS seems to be going after PvE-ers more so than PvP-ers (as again, PvE players in PvP zones were the ones who for the most part were trying to avoid being seen in a 1st place). And converting cloak to Toggle kinda kills it when it comes to reliability.

It has been discussed hundred times here that it will have the opposite effect of what ZOS is intended to do, but whatever - PvP is kinda dead anyway, so it is unfortunate that PvE got nerfed because of a dead game mode

LittlePinkDot

Foxtrot39 wrote: »

They could have just fixed the thing by giving Battle spirit a ramping cost increase or severely increase cost to cloak

Reason I use cloak is for RP activities such as assassination and thieving, PVP it only took a player with a detect pot to never know if you got spotted or not as there is no feedback against player seeing you until attacked

Are combat perma cloaker annoying ? yes but usualy its trolls using this

Any good NB using cloak is either to break away a fight they lost the advantage, move below the sneak detection range to perform a bomb/gank combo or line up a powerfull crit mid combat with a free "dodge"

They rely on sneaking a lot more with a massive movement speed, given to any player that are vampires, as it remove the sneak speed penalty with mostly some broken proc set doing all the damage for them

Most players that aren't good just crouch and spam it when they feel another player are getting too close for comfort to AVOID a fight

Severely increasing the cost of cloak just makes in unusable for stamina NB.

Infact just make cloak cost stamina instead of Magicka and it won't be able to be spammed by Magicka NB that uses concealed weapon which has guaranteed Crit. And it forces people to choose between having enough stamina for cloak or breaking free/roll dodge/block.