Lack of balance - again!

Syiccal · September 30

I guess we're going into another patch where sorc shields stay rediculous and Templar and necro stay bottom of the pile with no effort put in again.
There isn't even as much as a dev comment explanation why they don't get any buffs to skills that are clearly underperforming. A little goes a long way and I think alot of the community would like some feedback at this point as to why Sorcs get left alone and other classes get left way behind in terms of power output .
That's me done for a few patches I reckon

Skulptro · October 3

@Syiccal
Totally agree. That is outrageous. I'm a templar main, and I'm discouriged to even log in.

taugrim · October 3

Sadly, for PVP, Arcanist will be dropping to the level of Templar. Necro will still be the worst. Those classes will be bottom 3 in PVP in U44.

It's ridiculous that Hardened Ward has the best scaling in the game and healing to boot.

Theist_VII · October 3

As long as they don’t nerf Regenerative Ward, pitchfork away!

autocookies · October 3

Be careful what you wish for... LOL while I also feel the shield may be a bit too strong... if it gets the GLS/Arctic blast treatment it might end up as another unusable skill

Thumbless_Bot · October 3

autocookies wrote: »

Be careful what you wish for... LOL while I also feel the shield may be a bit too strong... if it gets the GLS/Arctic blast treatment it might end up as another unusable skill

Agree !Less nerfing more buffing. Game has been much more dynamic and fun wth the nerf to undeath. Let's keep that momentum going. However, ward is absolutely ridiculous right now. Never should have gone live with it. If zos buffs every other class the same way we will be back in a tanky stalemate meta again. Ward needs to be addressed, and not in a phoned-in half-hearted way zos has done with this last patch on pts.

The_Meathead · October 3

Ward is definitely too much, particularly on a class that has such phenomenal mobility. Nobody should have it all.

They also started out really nerfing the heck out of Cloak, but they went back on the Mag Regen that made it hurt, so I'm pretty dubious it's gonna accomplish anything big other than annoy NB players till they relearn muscle memory.

Ball Groups are sucking the fun out of Cyrodiil on a regular basis, yet Azureblight got nerfed because it threatened them.

Ward is still ludicrously good on a class that already had great damage and mobility, so now it has possibly the best defense as well. The small nerf won't change anything.

I'd say we're gonna wind up 0/3 this Patch on things that might have made a significant change in PvP, which is a shame.

DrSlaughtr · October 4

Let me ask a legit question.

For those upset, is your idea of balance is your class being masters of DPS, Healing and Tankiness? I want to do all the damage, eat as much damage and heal through the rest.

It's a bad idea to handle the classes in pvp and pve.

Every class should have the potential to be great at one role and then be serviceable in the others. Otherwise players just min max to do all three and it gets not so fun.

ZDunlain · October 4

As a templar main and PvP main, it is very difficult right now to be eager to play PvP, most of the encounters are a nb, a sorc, or a ballgroup.
The lack of balance in PvP nowadays is abysmal.

Vaqual · October 4

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

autocookies wrote: »

Be careful what you wish for... LOL while I also feel the shield may be a bit too strong... if it gets the GLS/Arctic blast treatment it might end up as another unusable skill

Agree !Less nerfing more buffing. Game has been much more dynamic and fun wth the nerf to undeath. Let's keep that momentum going. However, ward is absolutely ridiculous right now. Never should have gone live with it. If zos buffs every other class the same way we will be back in a tanky stalemate meta again. Ward needs to be addressed, and not in a phoned-in half-hearted way zos has done with this last patch on pts.

The problem with buffing compared to nerfing is that you shift the power average constantly according to outliers. You completely lose balance in comparison to older sets or PvE enemies, only to satisfy a couple of players without the ability to think abstractly about their characters numbers. It would be infinitely much more work to maintain cohesion with that approach. Buffing is, by a large margin, the worse choice.

DrSlaughtr · October 4

ZDunlain wrote: »

As a templar main and PvP main, it is very difficult right now to be eager to play PvP, most of the encounters are a nb, a sorc, or a ballgroup.
The lack of balance in PvP nowadays is abysmal.

What would you have done to change Templar to make it better for you?

It has too much healing potential to do high end DPS without making it overtly strong in both areas. I see plenty of templar DDs in PVP every day and they do just fine. They don't do as much damage as other classes, but they are quite hard to kill. I understand that this may not be the way you WANT to play but that is how the class was designed in the beginning.

Let's go back in time.

In the beginning, there were four classes.

DKs were Main Tanks, Good DDs and Okay Healers.
Templars were master healers, Good DDs and Okay Tanks.
Nightblades were fierce damage dealers, okay healers and okay tanks.
Sorcs were the jack of all trades class. Great for beginners. Lots of options in all three roles. And pets! Free NPCs to run around and help you out before companions!

Then they made wardens. This is where the trouble began. Wardens were able to be GREAT at EVERY role. They overpopulated PVP and PVE. They moved a lot of copies of Morrowind. They also made players of the base classes a little miffed.

So then came the calls for altering the base classes to fit this mindset. Master of All. You can do any role on any class and compete with the other classes in all content. That is what people wanted. And we started getting it.

Then Necromancer came out and it was the same as Warden. Master of everything and ruled the landscape for a year+ before it was (over) nerfed. But in that time, more and more anger built in the rest of the player base.

So then we started getting all sorts of "balance" updates to fit the "play how you want" motif.

Now everyone expects this impossible standard and any time their chosen class doesn't fit it, they get upset. And rightfully so, because players have been made to believe this is how the game should run.

But this is how you get players cheesing dungeons. This is how you get immortal PVPers and constant stalemates between the min-maxers. The map in Cyrodiil stagnates. It ends up being one endless battle at some keep. Most of the people who die are the ones who choose to play a specific role, and they end up out matched by people who push into all three on one character.

I'm all about balancing the classes, but the way I see balance is apparently different than others.

Thumbless_Bot · October 5

Vaqual wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

autocookies wrote: »

Be careful what you wish for... LOL while I also feel the shield may be a bit too strong... if it gets the GLS/Arctic blast treatment it might end up as another unusable skill

Agree !Less nerfing more buffing. Game has been much more dynamic and fun wth the nerf to undeath. Let's keep that momentum going. However, ward is absolutely ridiculous right now. Never should have gone live with it. If zos buffs every other class the same way we will be back in a tanky stalemate meta again. Ward needs to be addressed, and not in a phoned-in half-hearted way zos has done with this last patch on pts.

The problem with buffing compared to nerfing is that you shift the power average constantly according to outliers. You completely lose balance in comparison to older sets or PvE enemies, only to satisfy a couple of players without the ability to think abstractly about their characters numbers. It would be infinitely much more work to maintain cohesion with that approach. Buffing is, by a large margin, the worse choice.

I don't disagree when things are as out of whack as they are right now for sorc and nb. My point is more of a general principle. Zos should look at bringing things up while not overdoing it and down when they make, we'll, just flat out bad decisions. Read:nb or sorc. Nb damage output is absolutely ridiculous right now and sorc shield is just absurd.

When you see 80% of bgs and cyro running two classes that says something. It's just that zos isn't listening or they're making cosmetic changes... to be read: update 10.2.2 or whatever this patch is. The changes to cloak won't do anything for nb damage and the changes to sorc are just an insult to the rest of us.

Sluggy · October 5

autocookies wrote: »

Be careful what you wish for... LOL while I also feel the shield may be a bit too strong... if it gets the GLS/Arctic blast treatment it might end up as another unusable skill

Where was poop-rock in that picture? lol

Vaqual · October 5

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

autocookies wrote: »

Be careful what you wish for... LOL while I also feel the shield may be a bit too strong... if it gets the GLS/Arctic blast treatment it might end up as another unusable skill

Agree !Less nerfing more buffing. Game has been much more dynamic and fun wth the nerf to undeath. Let's keep that momentum going. However, ward is absolutely ridiculous right now. Never should have gone live with it. If zos buffs every other class the same way we will be back in a tanky stalemate meta again. Ward needs to be addressed, and not in a phoned-in half-hearted way zos has done with this last patch on pts.

The problem with buffing compared to nerfing is that you shift the power average constantly according to outliers. You completely lose balance in comparison to older sets or PvE enemies, only to satisfy a couple of players without the ability to think abstractly about their characters numbers. It would be infinitely much more work to maintain cohesion with that approach. Buffing is, by a large margin, the worse choice.

I don't disagree when things are as out of whack as they are right now for sorc and nb. My point is more of a general principle. Zos should look at bringing things up while not overdoing it and down when they make, we'll, just flat out bad decisions. Read:nb or sorc. Nb damage output is absolutely ridiculous right now and sorc shield is just absurd.

When you see 80% of bgs and cyro running two classes that says something. It's just that zos isn't listening or they're making cosmetic changes... to be read: update 10.2.2 or whatever this patch is. The changes to cloak won't do anything for nb damage and the changes to sorc are just an insult to the rest of us.

But still, it seems to me way more reasonable to just tweak the things that make Sorc and NB op. Weird incap buff + unnanmed concealed modifier? Can just be undone. They want a PvE buff? Put it on Twisted, because ground AoEs are a million times less likely to impact PvP, compared to burst ultimates and spammables. It doesn't take a huge IQ for ZOS to see that and I am baffled that they are legit coming up with a monster modifier on cloak....

Yeah well and Sorc....I don't like talking about that thing. That never ends well here.

darvaria · October 5

AND where is the VD nerf? Where VD can only hit ppl in the same group? This might help with ball groups.

TDVM · October 5

The sorc in pvp is the strongest and most mobile class right now, so this one is a good nerf

Tcholl · October 5

I agree with this post, specially regarding the Hardened Ward part.

DrSlaughtr · October 5

darvaria wrote: »

AND where is the VD nerf? Where VD can only hit ppl in the same group? This might help with ball groups.

So you just don't be in an actual group to avoid VD?

Thumbless_Bot · October 5

Vaqual wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

autocookies wrote: »

Be careful what you wish for... LOL while I also feel the shield may be a bit too strong... if it gets the GLS/Arctic blast treatment it might end up as another unusable skill

Agree !Less nerfing more buffing. Game has been much more dynamic and fun wth the nerf to undeath. Let's keep that momentum going. However, ward is absolutely ridiculous right now. Never should have gone live with it. If zos buffs every other class the same way we will be back in a tanky stalemate meta again. Ward needs to be addressed, and not in a phoned-in half-hearted way zos has done with this last patch on pts.

The problem with buffing compared to nerfing is that you shift the power average constantly according to outliers. You completely lose balance in comparison to older sets or PvE enemies, only to satisfy a couple of players without the ability to think abstractly about their characters numbers. It would be infinitely much more work to maintain cohesion with that approach. Buffing is, by a large margin, the worse choice.

I don't disagree when things are as out of whack as they are right now for sorc and nb. My point is more of a general principle. Zos should look at bringing things up while not overdoing it and down when they make, we'll, just flat out bad decisions. Read:nb or sorc. Nb damage output is absolutely ridiculous right now and sorc shield is just absurd.

When you see 80% of bgs and cyro running two classes that says something. It's just that zos isn't listening or they're making cosmetic changes... to be read: update 10.2.2 or whatever this patch is. The changes to cloak won't do anything for nb damage and the changes to sorc are just an insult to the rest of us.

But still, it seems to me way more reasonable to just tweak the things that make Sorc and NB op. Weird incap buff + unnanmed concealed modifier? Can just be undone. They want a PvE buff? Put it on Twisted, because ground AoEs are a million times less likely to impact PvP, compared to burst ultimates and spammables. It doesn't take a huge IQ for ZOS to see that and I am baffled that they are legit coming up with a monster modifier on cloak....

Yeah well and Sorc....I don't like talking about that thing. That never ends well here.

We are saying the same thing. Agree rn in this meta adjust sorc shield and nb damage.

Actually you know what would be really super cool? If zos were to explain and justify why they won't adjust these things. I am not talking a line in patch notes with meaningless vagaries. I mean really explain how and why they see this as balanced with examples and counter-examples for each class. Sadly I do not ever see this happening.