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Population shrinking, PLEASE do something
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Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I am thinking about coming back to ESO, but I can tell you right now, If support doesn't let me buy the Tel Galen home because it is "not available" im going to uninstall.
Furnishing a home is literally 50% of the end game content that people stick around for. If ZOS wants to continue to lock that behind artificial scarcity, I'm not going to bother playing.
I enjoy roleplaying, and player homes is a huge part of that.
If it is so important, why was it not purchased when it was offered or ask to purchase it back when CS would grant such requests (not anymore)? It has been provided multiple times.
I would suggest not telling them you will uninstall when you ask to be able to purchase it.
Good luck. It will come back around eventually.
1 -
twev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Cooperharley wrote: »alternatelder wrote: »Ithelia sounded lore breaking, so my wonder is whether it did not widely attract the Elder Scrolls faithful who were in no mood for such things from ZOS.
What Ithelia essentially does is allow them to create their own dragon breaks, so they can create new lore; new stories completely separate from TES games. A whole different timeline. And once they've squeezed all the money they can out of it, they'll just kill off Ithelia, Hermaeus Mora will come in like the men in black and wipe everyone's mind, and it will be as if it never happened.
Have you actually played to the REAL end of Gold Road? The extra 3 quests (and skill points) that are only available if you've completed BOTH Gold Road and Necrom AND both their prologue quests?
That, by the way, was... an interesting decision: to have some of the actual story, in this year's paid content, gaited behind other previous paid content - you have to either buy Necrom or have ESO+ subscription, West Weald is NOT fully self-contained: merely buying West Weald on an account that doesn't have Necrom or a subscription, gives you only 2/3 of the story.
(Which suggests to me, in fact, that West Weald may have been originally in the design stage as the Q4 DLC sequel to Necrom, and it was Executive Meddling that forced it to be shifted to the next year and fleshed out to become an entire Chapter in its own right.)
It's not a new concept to continue the story into another chapter. Morrowind to Summerset are connected. I actually prefer a larger storyline stretched out from year to year.
Well that story arc was good - we had solid dialogue options, the story was interesting and not TOO predictable AND we didn't seem like an absolute dunce when talking to other NPCs. The stories nowadays are 100% predictable, we look and sound extremely dumb, and it's just gotten unimaginative and rushed unfortunately. The story telling needs a big facelift and ZOS needs to not play it so safe every year. Outside of a new locale and a system we may or may not like, nothing changes too much.
I'm pretty sure the reason we tend to 'we look and sound extremely dumb' so often is because the game has drifted into selling the current new chapters as the starting point for new players in the game.
New players are/were given the option of jumping into the middle of the story at the current new chapter, with no background in the original stuff if they spend limited or no time in the starter zones and don't proceed through the story from there. It's my opinion that new players are even encouraged to start in the shiny new chapters ASAP, so the story is written centering around being a newb being injected into the middle of the story more often than not.
That first occurred to me meeting raz in the Summerset map in Shimmerene. It felt like he had amnesia, when he treated me as if he hadn't seen me before.That was one of the last times I engaged in new content/chapters. I stopped playing for a long while after that (months and years went by) and hardly engage with the game for very long anymore because of the frequent issues with FPS/lag and disconnects that were beginning to occur around then along with the discontinuities of connections with story and lore progression from AWA's and One Tamriel. Anymore, I have occasionally popped in to check out daily rewards and do some daily writs or take a crack at some of the accumulated surveys and master writs until the network ogres kneecap me again.
Most of my very much rarer time in game in the last 3+ years seems have been spent on old alt mule accounts just moving some inventory around and walking around picking some flowers for brief periods of time, with bad performance.
My kid sister checked out my account a few times a few years back to see if she wanted to play together, so I bought her an account, but she got tired of the discontinuities when playing alone trying to be a new player.
Oddly, I never seem to have issues online since I transitioned to doing anything else outside of ESO.
I guess ESO can be credited with changing me to more of an off-line IRL kind of human.The problem with society these days is that no one drinks from the skulls of their enemies anymore.3 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'm pretty sure the reason we tend to 'we look and sound extremely dumb' so often is because the game has drifted into selling the current new chapters as the starting point for new players in the game.
New players are/were given the option of jumping into the middle of the story at the current new chapter, with no background in the original stuff if they spend limited or no time in the starter zones and don't proceed through the story from there. It's my opinion that new players are even encouraged to start in the shiny new chapters ASAP, so the story is written centering around being a newb being injected into the middle of the story more often than not.
That first occurred to me meeting raz in the Summerset map in Shimmerene. It felt like he had amnesia, when he treated me as if he hadn't seen me before.That was one of the last times I engaged in new content/chapters. I stopped playing for a long while after that (months and years went by) and hardly engage with the game for very long anymore because of the frequent issues with FPS/lag and disconnects that were beginning to occur around then along with the discontinuities of connections with story and lore progression from AWA's and One Tamriel. Anymore, I have occasionally popped in to check out daily rewards and do some daily writs or take a crack at some of the accumulated surveys and master writs until the network ogres kneecap me again.
Most of my very much rarer time in game in the last 3+ years seems have been spent on old alt mule accounts just moving some inventory around and walking around picking some flowers for brief periods of time, with bad performance.
My kid sister checked out my account a few times a few years back to see if she wanted to play together, so I bought her an account, but she got tired of the discontinuities when playing alone trying to be a new player.
ZOS made it a selling point with Chapters that new players could buy the game and immediately enter the Chapter content they just purchased. It is a nice idea, since then the in-game experience matches what is on the outside of the box they bought, but their writing team was not able to keep up with all of the retcons necessary to make each new Chapter a starting point in the game.
In the end, it is a mess that should have been avoided. I see it as more of a hindrance than a benefit, and this may be why Wailing Prison is returning as the tutorial. Maybe they will announce next that Chapters have run their course and will be discontinued, neatly eliminating the problem without having to admit it was one.
6 -
manukartofanu✭✭✭✭alternatelder wrote: »AngryPenguin wrote: »Ravensilver wrote: »Parasaurolophus wrote: »I really don’t want to say this, but I’m afraid it’s already too late. You can’t step into the same river twice. ZOS (Zenimax Online Studios) prioritized casual players for too long, and this strategy worked for a while. To be fair, back then, it probably made sense. But casual players are casual for a reason—they just prefer moving on to newer projects. Even casual players will eventually get tired of the same annual, repetitive content. ESO is aging and can no longer compete with newer projects.
Online games often show remarkable resilience, but for some reason, I feel like ESO won’t last much longer in its current state.
Actually... I've become a casual player over the years. And even I'm no longer really fired up for the current content. The events are the same. The rewards get less interesting with each event. Most rewards end up in the store for rl money.
My main fun in the game is still housing, but even there I'm starting to lose interest, since most of the houses are *still* huge affairs, or crown shop items. The slots still haven't been expanded (and I'm *still* extremely sore about that 2-year long thread on the housing forum that simply got removed, without ever getting feedback from the dev that started it, and without *any* of our ideas or suggestions even considered fro implementation). The furniture plans are getting more and more difficult to farm and the materials needed are getting more and more elitist.
Even my best friend, who *loves* housing, says she's discouraged because she feels that there's just no way to have a chance at making and using the newer furnishings because of the plans and the materials involved.
I don't mind grind - I mean, I play WoW, for Goddess' sake! The Queen of grind! But I always feel that I can accomplish something when doing so. And I haven't had that feeling in ESO for quite a while.
So I log in, pick up the daily reward, log out. That's the extent of my interaction with the game at the moment. Even as an aged 'casual', that I am these days...
I think it is incorrect to lay the blame at development for casual players. This delves into that debate over casual vs non-casual, and that was mainly just another way for players to divide each other into groups for forum PVP.
The related issue with retention isn't a focus on casual or hard core, group or solo, but lack luster in-game rewards coupled with a decrease in new things to do. They are too slow to improve rewards, and tend to focus on cash shop and FOMO too much.
They may think they already have enough to do, but i expect that only new players will see that. Not a stellar retention point of view.
Well, at least you are agreeing that all developement over the last number of years has been strictly for the casual player who does not participate in any end game content. (housing and fashion ARE NOT end game because people can participate in those activities on day one with the purchase of crowns)
Umm. No. Actually, I think the focus on retention has included all forms of end game. Housing and fashion are definitely end game, as are trial, dungeons, and PVP. I do not limit the definition. My statement about rewards, cash shop, FOMO, and new things to do applies to all of the different end game options.
My definition of casual player is not tied to what activity they perform in the game. It is how they go about doing it.
Housing and fashion are definately not end game activities. As the other poster pointed out these are activities that players can and do engage in on day 1 of playing ESO.
Also, in another post someone asked you what the add ons you claimed to have written were and you didn't respond. Care to respond now please?
No, they definitely are endgame activities if that is the only thing longterm players come on to play nowadays, things that can take people hours or days to weeks to perfect.
If that's the case, then gathering gifts on each character and completing crafting dailies is the most endgame of all endgames.0 -
twev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭manukartofanu wrote: »alternatelder wrote: »AngryPenguin wrote: »Ravensilver wrote: »Parasaurolophus wrote: »I really don’t want to say this, but I’m afraid it’s already too late. You can’t step into the same river twice. ZOS (Zenimax Online Studios) prioritized casual players for too long, and this strategy worked for a while. To be fair, back then, it probably made sense. But casual players are casual for a reason—they just prefer moving on to newer projects. Even casual players will eventually get tired of the same annual, repetitive content. ESO is aging and can no longer compete with newer projects.
Online games often show remarkable resilience, but for some reason, I feel like ESO won’t last much longer in its current state.
Actually... I've become a casual player over the years. And even I'm no longer really fired up for the current content. The events are the same. The rewards get less interesting with each event. Most rewards end up in the store for rl money.
My main fun in the game is still housing, but even there I'm starting to lose interest, since most of the houses are *still* huge affairs, or crown shop items. The slots still haven't been expanded (and I'm *still* extremely sore about that 2-year long thread on the housing forum that simply got removed, without ever getting feedback from the dev that started it, and without *any* of our ideas or suggestions even considered fro implementation). The furniture plans are getting more and more difficult to farm and the materials needed are getting more and more elitist.
Even my best friend, who *loves* housing, says she's discouraged because she feels that there's just no way to have a chance at making and using the newer furnishings because of the plans and the materials involved.
I don't mind grind - I mean, I play WoW, for Goddess' sake! The Queen of grind! But I always feel that I can accomplish something when doing so. And I haven't had that feeling in ESO for quite a while.
So I log in, pick up the daily reward, log out. That's the extent of my interaction with the game at the moment. Even as an aged 'casual', that I am these days...
I think it is incorrect to lay the blame at development for casual players. This delves into that debate over casual vs non-casual, and that was mainly just another way for players to divide each other into groups for forum PVP.
The related issue with retention isn't a focus on casual or hard core, group or solo, but lack luster in-game rewards coupled with a decrease in new things to do. They are too slow to improve rewards, and tend to focus on cash shop and FOMO too much.
They may think they already have enough to do, but i expect that only new players will see that. Not a stellar retention point of view.
Well, at least you are agreeing that all developement over the last number of years has been strictly for the casual player who does not participate in any end game content. (housing and fashion ARE NOT end game because people can participate in those activities on day one with the purchase of crowns)
Umm. No. Actually, I think the focus on retention has included all forms of end game. Housing and fashion are definitely end game, as are trial, dungeons, and PVP. I do not limit the definition. My statement about rewards, cash shop, FOMO, and new things to do applies to all of the different end game options.
My definition of casual player is not tied to what activity they perform in the game. It is how they go about doing it.
Housing and fashion are definately not end game activities. As the other poster pointed out these are activities that players can and do engage in on day 1 of playing ESO.
Also, in another post someone asked you what the add ons you claimed to have written were and you didn't respond. Care to respond now please?
No, they definitely are endgame activities if that is the only thing longterm players come on to play nowadays, things that can take people hours or days to weeks to perfect.
If that's the case, then gathering gifts on each character and completing crafting dailies is the most endgame of all endgames.
The problem with that, that I don't see a way around, is that just gathering more stuff as end game becomes really boring really quickly unless attaining all the stuff for the sake of having more is the goal.
"If some is good,
And more is better,
Then:
Way too much is just about right".
The problem with society these days is that no one drinks from the skulls of their enemies anymore.1 -
manukartofanu✭✭✭✭manukartofanu wrote: »alternatelder wrote: »AngryPenguin wrote: »Ravensilver wrote: »Parasaurolophus wrote: »I really don’t want to say this, but I’m afraid it’s already too late. You can’t step into the same river twice. ZOS (Zenimax Online Studios) prioritized casual players for too long, and this strategy worked for a while. To be fair, back then, it probably made sense. But casual players are casual for a reason—they just prefer moving on to newer projects. Even casual players will eventually get tired of the same annual, repetitive content. ESO is aging and can no longer compete with newer projects.
Online games often show remarkable resilience, but for some reason, I feel like ESO won’t last much longer in its current state.
Actually... I've become a casual player over the years. And even I'm no longer really fired up for the current content. The events are the same. The rewards get less interesting with each event. Most rewards end up in the store for rl money.
My main fun in the game is still housing, but even there I'm starting to lose interest, since most of the houses are *still* huge affairs, or crown shop items. The slots still haven't been expanded (and I'm *still* extremely sore about that 2-year long thread on the housing forum that simply got removed, without ever getting feedback from the dev that started it, and without *any* of our ideas or suggestions even considered fro implementation). The furniture plans are getting more and more difficult to farm and the materials needed are getting more and more elitist.
Even my best friend, who *loves* housing, says she's discouraged because she feels that there's just no way to have a chance at making and using the newer furnishings because of the plans and the materials involved.
I don't mind grind - I mean, I play WoW, for Goddess' sake! The Queen of grind! But I always feel that I can accomplish something when doing so. And I haven't had that feeling in ESO for quite a while.
So I log in, pick up the daily reward, log out. That's the extent of my interaction with the game at the moment. Even as an aged 'casual', that I am these days...
I think it is incorrect to lay the blame at development for casual players. This delves into that debate over casual vs non-casual, and that was mainly just another way for players to divide each other into groups for forum PVP.
The related issue with retention isn't a focus on casual or hard core, group or solo, but lack luster in-game rewards coupled with a decrease in new things to do. They are too slow to improve rewards, and tend to focus on cash shop and FOMO too much.
They may think they already have enough to do, but i expect that only new players will see that. Not a stellar retention point of view.
Well, at least you are agreeing that all developement over the last number of years has been strictly for the casual player who does not participate in any end game content. (housing and fashion ARE NOT end game because people can participate in those activities on day one with the purchase of crowns)
Umm. No. Actually, I think the focus on retention has included all forms of end game. Housing and fashion are definitely end game, as are trial, dungeons, and PVP. I do not limit the definition. My statement about rewards, cash shop, FOMO, and new things to do applies to all of the different end game options.
My definition of casual player is not tied to what activity they perform in the game. It is how they go about doing it.
Housing and fashion are definately not end game activities. As the other poster pointed out these are activities that players can and do engage in on day 1 of playing ESO.
Also, in another post someone asked you what the add ons you claimed to have written were and you didn't respond. Care to respond now please?
No, they definitely are endgame activities if that is the only thing longterm players come on to play nowadays, things that can take people hours or days to weeks to perfect.
If that's the case, then gathering gifts on each character and completing crafting dailies is the most endgame of all endgames.
The problem with that, that I don't see a way around, is that just gathering more stuff as end game becomes really boring really quickly unless attaining all the stuff for the sake of having more is the goal.
"If some is good,
And more is better,
Then:
Way too much is just about right".
Maybe for you personally. But there are people who get more enjoyment from the act of collecting itself than from anything else; the size of the reward doesn't even matter to them.
The thing is, it doesn’t matter what people do in their endgame, endgame doesn't encompass everything people can do in their endgame. Endgame is only those activities/achievements/rewards that only endgame players can do/obtain. In other words, these are things that exist in the game solely to keep long-term players interested.
In this sense, neither housing, nor PvP, nor even trials are endgame by themselves, but each of these areas has endgame activities. You can't deny housing or even character customization in this regard, just take a look at the rewards given for endgame PvP and PvE activities.1 -
MISTFORMBZZZ✭✭✭✭✭While I appreciate people having already shared here the link to the "Massive lag" thread, I think it's worth reporting here this other thread too, even if it's created by Zos themselves:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/660783/feedback-on-console-environmental-sustainability-features/p1
Many valid opinions here too that reflect the sentiment of players, both leaving or continuing to play but in frustration.
I have honestly no performance issues on ps5 eu but the server being empty is a big issue0 -
Cooperharley✭✭✭✭ESO plus is definitely worth it for newer players, but for veterans, it's becoming less and less attractive - especially ever since we stopped getting story content in Q4. I believe that's partially why they made ESO plus get the new companions for free, so it looked a little more attractive this year.
I personally don't care all that much for the benefits now - i've played the stories available and all i'm paying for at this point is crowns and a manageable inventory; not really worth it if you ask me personally.
I love the game, but seems like we've got less and less every year content and storytelling wise, which arguably is the whole point of an elder scrolls game, let alone an MMO.
I just use the crowns to prchase skill line skips like antiquities or psijic because of how painful they are the 5th, 6th, 7th time.6 -
reazea✭✭✭✭✭
✭alternatelder wrote: »AngryPenguin wrote: »Ravensilver wrote: »Parasaurolophus wrote: »I really don’t want to say this, but I’m afraid it’s already too late. You can’t step into the same river twice. ZOS (Zenimax Online Studios) prioritized casual players for too long, and this strategy worked for a while. To be fair, back then, it probably made sense. But casual players are casual for a reason—they just prefer moving on to newer projects. Even casual players will eventually get tired of the same annual, repetitive content. ESO is aging and can no longer compete with newer projects.
Online games often show remarkable resilience, but for some reason, I feel like ESO won’t last much longer in its current state.
Actually... I've become a casual player over the years. And even I'm no longer really fired up for the current content. The events are the same. The rewards get less interesting with each event. Most rewards end up in the store for rl money.
My main fun in the game is still housing, but even there I'm starting to lose interest, since most of the houses are *still* huge affairs, or crown shop items. The slots still haven't been expanded (and I'm *still* extremely sore about that 2-year long thread on the housing forum that simply got removed, without ever getting feedback from the dev that started it, and without *any* of our ideas or suggestions even considered fro implementation). The furniture plans are getting more and more difficult to farm and the materials needed are getting more and more elitist.
Even my best friend, who *loves* housing, says she's discouraged because she feels that there's just no way to have a chance at making and using the newer furnishings because of the plans and the materials involved.
I don't mind grind - I mean, I play WoW, for Goddess' sake! The Queen of grind! But I always feel that I can accomplish something when doing so. And I haven't had that feeling in ESO for quite a while.
So I log in, pick up the daily reward, log out. That's the extent of my interaction with the game at the moment. Even as an aged 'casual', that I am these days...
I think it is incorrect to lay the blame at development for casual players. This delves into that debate over casual vs non-casual, and that was mainly just another way for players to divide each other into groups for forum PVP.
The related issue with retention isn't a focus on casual or hard core, group or solo, but lack luster in-game rewards coupled with a decrease in new things to do. They are too slow to improve rewards, and tend to focus on cash shop and FOMO too much.
They may think they already have enough to do, but i expect that only new players will see that. Not a stellar retention point of view.
Well, at least you are agreeing that all developement over the last number of years has been strictly for the casual player who does not participate in any end game content. (housing and fashion ARE NOT end game because people can participate in those activities on day one with the purchase of crowns)
Umm. No. Actually, I think the focus on retention has included all forms of end game. Housing and fashion are definitely end game, as are trial, dungeons, and PVP. I do not limit the definition. My statement about rewards, cash shop, FOMO, and new things to do applies to all of the different end game options.
My definition of casual player is not tied to what activity they perform in the game. It is how they go about doing it.
Housing and fashion are definately not end game activities. As the other poster pointed out these are activities that players can and do engage in on day 1 of playing ESO.
Also, in another post someone asked you what the add ons you claimed to have written were and you didn't respond. Care to respond now please?
No, they definitely are endgame activities if that is the only thing longterm players come on to play nowadays, things that can take people hours or days to weeks to perfect.
No, housing can be taken part in the very first day of playing ESO. There are no skills or abilities that need to be leveled to participate in the activity. End game activities are vet dlc dungeons, vet trials, trifectas and PvP. There is no skill associated with housing. Anyone can do it on day 1. End game activities take years of playing to get good enough to participate in and excel in. Housing is the without debate the single most casual activity available in ESO. You don't even need to have gear to participate in housing. You can do housing nekid. Additionally, housing is a totally solo activity...in an MMO where activities should always center around interacting with other players.2 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭alternatelder wrote: »AngryPenguin wrote: »Ravensilver wrote: »Parasaurolophus wrote: »I really don’t want to say this, but I’m afraid it’s already too late. You can’t step into the same river twice. ZOS (Zenimax Online Studios) prioritized casual players for too long, and this strategy worked for a while. To be fair, back then, it probably made sense. But casual players are casual for a reason—they just prefer moving on to newer projects. Even casual players will eventually get tired of the same annual, repetitive content. ESO is aging and can no longer compete with newer projects.
Online games often show remarkable resilience, but for some reason, I feel like ESO won’t last much longer in its current state.
Actually... I've become a casual player over the years. And even I'm no longer really fired up for the current content. The events are the same. The rewards get less interesting with each event. Most rewards end up in the store for rl money.
My main fun in the game is still housing, but even there I'm starting to lose interest, since most of the houses are *still* huge affairs, or crown shop items. The slots still haven't been expanded (and I'm *still* extremely sore about that 2-year long thread on the housing forum that simply got removed, without ever getting feedback from the dev that started it, and without *any* of our ideas or suggestions even considered fro implementation). The furniture plans are getting more and more difficult to farm and the materials needed are getting more and more elitist.
Even my best friend, who *loves* housing, says she's discouraged because she feels that there's just no way to have a chance at making and using the newer furnishings because of the plans and the materials involved.
I don't mind grind - I mean, I play WoW, for Goddess' sake! The Queen of grind! But I always feel that I can accomplish something when doing so. And I haven't had that feeling in ESO for quite a while.
So I log in, pick up the daily reward, log out. That's the extent of my interaction with the game at the moment. Even as an aged 'casual', that I am these days...
I think it is incorrect to lay the blame at development for casual players. This delves into that debate over casual vs non-casual, and that was mainly just another way for players to divide each other into groups for forum PVP.
The related issue with retention isn't a focus on casual or hard core, group or solo, but lack luster in-game rewards coupled with a decrease in new things to do. They are too slow to improve rewards, and tend to focus on cash shop and FOMO too much.
They may think they already have enough to do, but i expect that only new players will see that. Not a stellar retention point of view.
Well, at least you are agreeing that all developement over the last number of years has been strictly for the casual player who does not participate in any end game content. (housing and fashion ARE NOT end game because people can participate in those activities on day one with the purchase of crowns)
Umm. No. Actually, I think the focus on retention has included all forms of end game. Housing and fashion are definitely end game, as are trial, dungeons, and PVP. I do not limit the definition. My statement about rewards, cash shop, FOMO, and new things to do applies to all of the different end game options.
My definition of casual player is not tied to what activity they perform in the game. It is how they go about doing it.
Housing and fashion are definately not end game activities. As the other poster pointed out these are activities that players can and do engage in on day 1 of playing ESO.
Also, in another post someone asked you what the add ons you claimed to have written were and you didn't respond. Care to respond now please?
No, they definitely are endgame activities if that is the only thing longterm players come on to play nowadays, things that can take people hours or days to weeks to perfect.
No, housing can be taken part in the very first day of playing ESO. There are no skills or abilities that need to be leveled to participate in the activity. End game activities are vet dlc dungeons, vet trials, trifectas and PvP. There is no skill associated with housing. Anyone can do it on day 1. End game activities take years of playing to get good enough to participate in and excel in. Housing is the without debate the single most casual activity available in ESO. You don't even need to have gear to participate in housing. You can do housing nekid. Additionally, housing is a totally solo activity...in an MMO where activities should always center around interacting with other players.
It is clearly an end-game. I mean, you might disagree, but people are doing it. It may be a significant population and revenue source, too.3 -
reazea✭✭✭✭✭
✭alternatelder wrote: »AngryPenguin wrote: »Ravensilver wrote: »Parasaurolophus wrote: »I really don’t want to say this, but I’m afraid it’s already too late. You can’t step into the same river twice. ZOS (Zenimax Online Studios) prioritized casual players for too long, and this strategy worked for a while. To be fair, back then, it probably made sense. But casual players are casual for a reason—they just prefer moving on to newer projects. Even casual players will eventually get tired of the same annual, repetitive content. ESO is aging and can no longer compete with newer projects.
Online games often show remarkable resilience, but for some reason, I feel like ESO won’t last much longer in its current state.
Actually... I've become a casual player over the years. And even I'm no longer really fired up for the current content. The events are the same. The rewards get less interesting with each event. Most rewards end up in the store for rl money.
My main fun in the game is still housing, but even there I'm starting to lose interest, since most of the houses are *still* huge affairs, or crown shop items. The slots still haven't been expanded (and I'm *still* extremely sore about that 2-year long thread on the housing forum that simply got removed, without ever getting feedback from the dev that started it, and without *any* of our ideas or suggestions even considered fro implementation). The furniture plans are getting more and more difficult to farm and the materials needed are getting more and more elitist.
Even my best friend, who *loves* housing, says she's discouraged because she feels that there's just no way to have a chance at making and using the newer furnishings because of the plans and the materials involved.
I don't mind grind - I mean, I play WoW, for Goddess' sake! The Queen of grind! But I always feel that I can accomplish something when doing so. And I haven't had that feeling in ESO for quite a while.
So I log in, pick up the daily reward, log out. That's the extent of my interaction with the game at the moment. Even as an aged 'casual', that I am these days...
I think it is incorrect to lay the blame at development for casual players. This delves into that debate over casual vs non-casual, and that was mainly just another way for players to divide each other into groups for forum PVP.
The related issue with retention isn't a focus on casual or hard core, group or solo, but lack luster in-game rewards coupled with a decrease in new things to do. They are too slow to improve rewards, and tend to focus on cash shop and FOMO too much.
They may think they already have enough to do, but i expect that only new players will see that. Not a stellar retention point of view.
Well, at least you are agreeing that all developement over the last number of years has been strictly for the casual player who does not participate in any end game content. (housing and fashion ARE NOT end game because people can participate in those activities on day one with the purchase of crowns)
Umm. No. Actually, I think the focus on retention has included all forms of end game. Housing and fashion are definitely end game, as are trial, dungeons, and PVP. I do not limit the definition. My statement about rewards, cash shop, FOMO, and new things to do applies to all of the different end game options.
My definition of casual player is not tied to what activity they perform in the game. It is how they go about doing it.
Housing and fashion are definately not end game activities. As the other poster pointed out these are activities that players can and do engage in on day 1 of playing ESO.
Also, in another post someone asked you what the add ons you claimed to have written were and you didn't respond. Care to respond now please?
No, they definitely are endgame activities if that is the only thing longterm players come on to play nowadays, things that can take people hours or days to weeks to perfect.
No, housing can be taken part in the very first day of playing ESO. There are no skills or abilities that need to be leveled to participate in the activity. End game activities are vet dlc dungeons, vet trials, trifectas and PvP. There is no skill associated with housing. Anyone can do it on day 1. End game activities take years of playing to get good enough to participate in and excel in. Housing is the without debate the single most casual activity available in ESO. You don't even need to have gear to participate in housing. You can do housing nekid. Additionally, housing is a totally solo activity...in an MMO where activities should always center around interacting with other players.
It is clearly an end-game. I mean, you might disagree, but people are doing it. It may be a significant population and revenue source, too.
By deffintion end game activities require years of play to get good enough to participate in.
I get it that housing aficionados want to tell themselves they are participating in end game activities, but end game activities take years of practice to be good enough at to even participate in. End game activities are vet trials, trifectas and competitive PvP.
What were those add ons you posted that you authored and maintain again?
Edited by reazea on October 23, 2024 4:07PM5 -
Nerouyn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No, housing can be taken part in the very first day of playing ESO.
Ahem.
As I posted in response to your previous attempt to make this strange argument fly....
Since players can also engage in combat from day 1, that would rule out combat as an end-game activity.
Dungeons are also easily accessible on a first day of play. So that rules that out too.
PvP? Same again.
End-game is whatever floats players' boats once they've reached max level and completed all of the story content.
Housing and fashion? Sure. Obviously.1 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭alternatelder wrote: »AngryPenguin wrote: »Ravensilver wrote: »Parasaurolophus wrote: »I really don’t want to say this, but I’m afraid it’s already too late. You can’t step into the same river twice. ZOS (Zenimax Online Studios) prioritized casual players for too long, and this strategy worked for a while. To be fair, back then, it probably made sense. But casual players are casual for a reason—they just prefer moving on to newer projects. Even casual players will eventually get tired of the same annual, repetitive content. ESO is aging and can no longer compete with newer projects.
Online games often show remarkable resilience, but for some reason, I feel like ESO won’t last much longer in its current state.
Actually... I've become a casual player over the years. And even I'm no longer really fired up for the current content. The events are the same. The rewards get less interesting with each event. Most rewards end up in the store for rl money.
My main fun in the game is still housing, but even there I'm starting to lose interest, since most of the houses are *still* huge affairs, or crown shop items. The slots still haven't been expanded (and I'm *still* extremely sore about that 2-year long thread on the housing forum that simply got removed, without ever getting feedback from the dev that started it, and without *any* of our ideas or suggestions even considered fro implementation). The furniture plans are getting more and more difficult to farm and the materials needed are getting more and more elitist.
Even my best friend, who *loves* housing, says she's discouraged because she feels that there's just no way to have a chance at making and using the newer furnishings because of the plans and the materials involved.
I don't mind grind - I mean, I play WoW, for Goddess' sake! The Queen of grind! But I always feel that I can accomplish something when doing so. And I haven't had that feeling in ESO for quite a while.
So I log in, pick up the daily reward, log out. That's the extent of my interaction with the game at the moment. Even as an aged 'casual', that I am these days...
I think it is incorrect to lay the blame at development for casual players. This delves into that debate over casual vs non-casual, and that was mainly just another way for players to divide each other into groups for forum PVP.
The related issue with retention isn't a focus on casual or hard core, group or solo, but lack luster in-game rewards coupled with a decrease in new things to do. They are too slow to improve rewards, and tend to focus on cash shop and FOMO too much.
They may think they already have enough to do, but i expect that only new players will see that. Not a stellar retention point of view.
Well, at least you are agreeing that all developement over the last number of years has been strictly for the casual player who does not participate in any end game content. (housing and fashion ARE NOT end game because people can participate in those activities on day one with the purchase of crowns)
Umm. No. Actually, I think the focus on retention has included all forms of end game. Housing and fashion are definitely end game, as are trial, dungeons, and PVP. I do not limit the definition. My statement about rewards, cash shop, FOMO, and new things to do applies to all of the different end game options.
My definition of casual player is not tied to what activity they perform in the game. It is how they go about doing it.
Housing and fashion are definately not end game activities. As the other poster pointed out these are activities that players can and do engage in on day 1 of playing ESO.
Also, in another post someone asked you what the add ons you claimed to have written were and you didn't respond. Care to respond now please?
No, they definitely are endgame activities if that is the only thing longterm players come on to play nowadays, things that can take people hours or days to weeks to perfect.
No, housing can be taken part in the very first day of playing ESO. There are no skills or abilities that need to be leveled to participate in the activity. End game activities are vet dlc dungeons, vet trials, trifectas and PvP. There is no skill associated with housing. Anyone can do it on day 1. End game activities take years of playing to get good enough to participate in and excel in. Housing is the without debate the single most casual activity available in ESO. You don't even need to have gear to participate in housing. You can do housing nekid. Additionally, housing is a totally solo activity...in an MMO where activities should always center around interacting with other players.
It is clearly an end-game. I mean, you might disagree, but people are doing it. It may be a significant population and revenue source, too.
By deffintion end game activities require years of play to get good enough to participate in.
I get it that housing aficionados want to tell themselves they are participating in end game activities, but end game activities take years of practice to be good enough at to even participate in. End game activities are vet trials, trifectas and competitive PvP.
What were those add ons you posted that you authored and maintain again?
That definition does not really matter if the people doing it as an end-game activity are a significant part of the active player population.
Edit: in WoW I think you can get to end game in a matter of a few hours, with level boosts. I am not sure putting a time criteria on it is appropriate.
Honestly, though, end-game is just what you do when done with the main part of the game. Whatever that may be. Housing requires some effort to uncover furniture, plans, etc, and fits perfectly into that definition. It is an activity that one can do from the start, like combat. Also like combat, leveling up in the game is required to fully realize what housing can do in the game.
Given the Housing Tours feature from 3Q, I expect that Housing will be an end-game activity here for a long time.Edited by Elsonso on October 23, 2024 4:39PM3 -
Estin✭✭✭✭✭alternatelder wrote: »AngryPenguin wrote: »Ravensilver wrote: »Parasaurolophus wrote: »I really don’t want to say this, but I’m afraid it’s already too late. You can’t step into the same river twice. ZOS (Zenimax Online Studios) prioritized casual players for too long, and this strategy worked for a while. To be fair, back then, it probably made sense. But casual players are casual for a reason—they just prefer moving on to newer projects. Even casual players will eventually get tired of the same annual, repetitive content. ESO is aging and can no longer compete with newer projects.
Online games often show remarkable resilience, but for some reason, I feel like ESO won’t last much longer in its current state.
Actually... I've become a casual player over the years. And even I'm no longer really fired up for the current content. The events are the same. The rewards get less interesting with each event. Most rewards end up in the store for rl money.
My main fun in the game is still housing, but even there I'm starting to lose interest, since most of the houses are *still* huge affairs, or crown shop items. The slots still haven't been expanded (and I'm *still* extremely sore about that 2-year long thread on the housing forum that simply got removed, without ever getting feedback from the dev that started it, and without *any* of our ideas or suggestions even considered fro implementation). The furniture plans are getting more and more difficult to farm and the materials needed are getting more and more elitist.
Even my best friend, who *loves* housing, says she's discouraged because she feels that there's just no way to have a chance at making and using the newer furnishings because of the plans and the materials involved.
I don't mind grind - I mean, I play WoW, for Goddess' sake! The Queen of grind! But I always feel that I can accomplish something when doing so. And I haven't had that feeling in ESO for quite a while.
So I log in, pick up the daily reward, log out. That's the extent of my interaction with the game at the moment. Even as an aged 'casual', that I am these days...
I think it is incorrect to lay the blame at development for casual players. This delves into that debate over casual vs non-casual, and that was mainly just another way for players to divide each other into groups for forum PVP.
The related issue with retention isn't a focus on casual or hard core, group or solo, but lack luster in-game rewards coupled with a decrease in new things to do. They are too slow to improve rewards, and tend to focus on cash shop and FOMO too much.
They may think they already have enough to do, but i expect that only new players will see that. Not a stellar retention point of view.
Well, at least you are agreeing that all developement over the last number of years has been strictly for the casual player who does not participate in any end game content. (housing and fashion ARE NOT end game because people can participate in those activities on day one with the purchase of crowns)
Umm. No. Actually, I think the focus on retention has included all forms of end game. Housing and fashion are definitely end game, as are trial, dungeons, and PVP. I do not limit the definition. My statement about rewards, cash shop, FOMO, and new things to do applies to all of the different end game options.
My definition of casual player is not tied to what activity they perform in the game. It is how they go about doing it.
Housing and fashion are definately not end game activities. As the other poster pointed out these are activities that players can and do engage in on day 1 of playing ESO.
Also, in another post someone asked you what the add ons you claimed to have written were and you didn't respond. Care to respond now please?
No, they definitely are endgame activities if that is the only thing longterm players come on to play nowadays, things that can take people hours or days to weeks to perfect.
No, housing can be taken part in the very first day of playing ESO. There are no skills or abilities that need to be leveled to participate in the activity. End game activities are vet dlc dungeons, vet trials, trifectas and PvP. There is no skill associated with housing. Anyone can do it on day 1. End game activities take years of playing to get good enough to participate in and excel in. Housing is the without debate the single most casual activity available in ESO. You don't even need to have gear to participate in housing. You can do housing nekid. Additionally, housing is a totally solo activity...in an MMO where activities should always center around interacting with other players.
Housing is expensive. It's getting cheaper now, but it's still ridiculously expensive with all the gold you need to spend on mats and furnishing plans. You can't do that day 1. There's also plenty of achievement furnishings that people do use that can only be obtained by doing vet content. You want an oblivion gate? You have to do vRG HM. Just like PvE, there are subsets. Furnishing apartments and small homes with basic furnishings isn't going to be considered end game, just like how doing normal dungeons or trials isn't endgame. Furnishing a guild hall to the point where you're completely transforming the look of the house can be considered endgame because people doing so fund and furnish it with years worth of gold and furnishings obtained through doing endgame PvE.4 -
Nerouyn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Housing is expensive.
So is fashion.
Most subscription games give players more than 2 measly costume slots and more can be bought with in game currency.
Even many free to games are more generous than ESO.
When slots are sold for cash, it's for a lot less than ESO's $15 per slot, and those slots are account wide, not character specific.
On top of that, dyes are rewarded for achievements, which requires having played the game for some time.2 -
alternatelder✭✭✭✭✭
✭alternatelder wrote: »AngryPenguin wrote: »Ravensilver wrote: »Parasaurolophus wrote: »I really don’t want to say this, but I’m afraid it’s already too late. You can’t step into the same river twice. ZOS (Zenimax Online Studios) prioritized casual players for too long, and this strategy worked for a while. To be fair, back then, it probably made sense. But casual players are casual for a reason—they just prefer moving on to newer projects. Even casual players will eventually get tired of the same annual, repetitive content. ESO is aging and can no longer compete with newer projects.
Online games often show remarkable resilience, but for some reason, I feel like ESO won’t last much longer in its current state.
Actually... I've become a casual player over the years. And even I'm no longer really fired up for the current content. The events are the same. The rewards get less interesting with each event. Most rewards end up in the store for rl money.
My main fun in the game is still housing, but even there I'm starting to lose interest, since most of the houses are *still* huge affairs, or crown shop items. The slots still haven't been expanded (and I'm *still* extremely sore about that 2-year long thread on the housing forum that simply got removed, without ever getting feedback from the dev that started it, and without *any* of our ideas or suggestions even considered fro implementation). The furniture plans are getting more and more difficult to farm and the materials needed are getting more and more elitist.
Even my best friend, who *loves* housing, says she's discouraged because she feels that there's just no way to have a chance at making and using the newer furnishings because of the plans and the materials involved.
I don't mind grind - I mean, I play WoW, for Goddess' sake! The Queen of grind! But I always feel that I can accomplish something when doing so. And I haven't had that feeling in ESO for quite a while.
So I log in, pick up the daily reward, log out. That's the extent of my interaction with the game at the moment. Even as an aged 'casual', that I am these days...
I think it is incorrect to lay the blame at development for casual players. This delves into that debate over casual vs non-casual, and that was mainly just another way for players to divide each other into groups for forum PVP.
The related issue with retention isn't a focus on casual or hard core, group or solo, but lack luster in-game rewards coupled with a decrease in new things to do. They are too slow to improve rewards, and tend to focus on cash shop and FOMO too much.
They may think they already have enough to do, but i expect that only new players will see that. Not a stellar retention point of view.
Well, at least you are agreeing that all developement over the last number of years has been strictly for the casual player who does not participate in any end game content. (housing and fashion ARE NOT end game because people can participate in those activities on day one with the purchase of crowns)
Umm. No. Actually, I think the focus on retention has included all forms of end game. Housing and fashion are definitely end game, as are trial, dungeons, and PVP. I do not limit the definition. My statement about rewards, cash shop, FOMO, and new things to do applies to all of the different end game options.
My definition of casual player is not tied to what activity they perform in the game. It is how they go about doing it.
Housing and fashion are definately not end game activities. As the other poster pointed out these are activities that players can and do engage in on day 1 of playing ESO.
Also, in another post someone asked you what the add ons you claimed to have written were and you didn't respond. Care to respond now please?
No, they definitely are endgame activities if that is the only thing longterm players come on to play nowadays, things that can take people hours or days to weeks to perfect.
No, housing can be taken part in the very first day of playing ESO. There are no skills or abilities that need to be leveled to participate in the activity. End game activities are vet dlc dungeons, vet trials, trifectas and PvP. There is no skill associated with housing. Anyone can do it on day 1. End game activities take years of playing to get good enough to participate in and excel in. Housing is the without debate the single most casual activity available in ESO. You don't even need to have gear to participate in housing. You can do housing nekid. Additionally, housing is a totally solo activity...in an MMO where activities should always center around interacting with other players.
Housing and fashion do not need skill as requirement to be considered endgame activities, it is whatever that player feels like doing as a "retirement." Disagree with it all you want, but your opinion on the matter is wrong. End of discussion.3 -
Stridig✭✭✭✭✭
✭alternatelder wrote: »alternatelder wrote: »AngryPenguin wrote: »Ravensilver wrote: »Parasaurolophus wrote: »I really don’t want to say this, but I’m afraid it’s already too late. You can’t step into the same river twice. ZOS (Zenimax Online Studios) prioritized casual players for too long, and this strategy worked for a while. To be fair, back then, it probably made sense. But casual players are casual for a reason—they just prefer moving on to newer projects. Even casual players will eventually get tired of the same annual, repetitive content. ESO is aging and can no longer compete with newer projects.
Online games often show remarkable resilience, but for some reason, I feel like ESO won’t last much longer in its current state.
Actually... I've become a casual player over the years. And even I'm no longer really fired up for the current content. The events are the same. The rewards get less interesting with each event. Most rewards end up in the store for rl money.
My main fun in the game is still housing, but even there I'm starting to lose interest, since most of the houses are *still* huge affairs, or crown shop items. The slots still haven't been expanded (and I'm *still* extremely sore about that 2-year long thread on the housing forum that simply got removed, without ever getting feedback from the dev that started it, and without *any* of our ideas or suggestions even considered fro implementation). The furniture plans are getting more and more difficult to farm and the materials needed are getting more and more elitist.
Even my best friend, who *loves* housing, says she's discouraged because she feels that there's just no way to have a chance at making and using the newer furnishings because of the plans and the materials involved.
I don't mind grind - I mean, I play WoW, for Goddess' sake! The Queen of grind! But I always feel that I can accomplish something when doing so. And I haven't had that feeling in ESO for quite a while.
So I log in, pick up the daily reward, log out. That's the extent of my interaction with the game at the moment. Even as an aged 'casual', that I am these days...
I think it is incorrect to lay the blame at development for casual players. This delves into that debate over casual vs non-casual, and that was mainly just another way for players to divide each other into groups for forum PVP.
The related issue with retention isn't a focus on casual or hard core, group or solo, but lack luster in-game rewards coupled with a decrease in new things to do. They are too slow to improve rewards, and tend to focus on cash shop and FOMO too much.
They may think they already have enough to do, but i expect that only new players will see that. Not a stellar retention point of view.
Well, at least you are agreeing that all developement over the last number of years has been strictly for the casual player who does not participate in any end game content. (housing and fashion ARE NOT end game because people can participate in those activities on day one with the purchase of crowns)
Umm. No. Actually, I think the focus on retention has included all forms of end game. Housing and fashion are definitely end game, as are trial, dungeons, and PVP. I do not limit the definition. My statement about rewards, cash shop, FOMO, and new things to do applies to all of the different end game options.
My definition of casual player is not tied to what activity they perform in the game. It is how they go about doing it.
Housing and fashion are definately not end game activities. As the other poster pointed out these are activities that players can and do engage in on day 1 of playing ESO.
Also, in another post someone asked you what the add ons you claimed to have written were and you didn't respond. Care to respond now please?
No, they definitely are endgame activities if that is the only thing longterm players come on to play nowadays, things that can take people hours or days to weeks to perfect.
No, housing can be taken part in the very first day of playing ESO. There are no skills or abilities that need to be leveled to participate in the activity. End game activities are vet dlc dungeons, vet trials, trifectas and PvP. There is no skill associated with housing. Anyone can do it on day 1. End game activities take years of playing to get good enough to participate in and excel in. Housing is the without debate the single most casual activity available in ESO. You don't even need to have gear to participate in housing. You can do housing nekid. Additionally, housing is a totally solo activity...in an MMO where activities should always center around interacting with other players.
Housing and fashion do not need skill as requirement to be considered endgame activities, it is whatever that player feels like doing as a "retirement." Disagree with it all you want, but your opinion on the matter is wrong. End of discussion.
Housing takes a ton of skill and exceptional talent. It most certainly is end game for some folks.Enemy to many
Friend to all8 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Housing is expensive. It's getting cheaper now, but it's still ridiculously expensive with all the gold you need to spend on mats and furnishing plans. You can't do that day 1. There's also plenty of achievement furnishings that people do use that can only be obtained by doing vet content. You want an oblivion gate? You have to do vRG HM. Just like PvE, there are subsets. Furnishing apartments and small homes with basic furnishings isn't going to be considered end game, just like how doing normal dungeons or trials isn't endgame. Furnishing a guild hall to the point where you're completely transforming the look of the house can be considered endgame because people doing so fund and furnish it with years worth of gold and furnishings obtained through doing endgame PvE.
Exactly.
Want a cool floating, rotating scroll for your house? Only takes 64 million AP and 50 skill points worth of PvP earned to qualify. Need a flashy Volundrung replica furnishing? All you have to do is wait for hours, days, months, years until you can get your hands on it and then kill somebody in a 50 man zerg with it before you die. Or be lucky enough to kill the wielder, who is in their own 50 man zerg. And then pay 1 million AP to the vendor to purchase it.Housing takes a ton of skill and exceptional talent. It most certainly is end game for some folks.
Yes, you can definitely tell who is skilled and experienced at housing, just by visiting their homes, lol
6 -
Aurielle✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭This MMO is two years older than ESO.
A world boss fight at 4:30pm EST on a weekday... (open the image in a new tab, enjoy counting the number of players on the screen -- I definitely would have been booted to login with the same numbers on ESO).
Edited by Aurielle on October 23, 2024 7:08PM6 -
MISTFORMBZZZ✭✭✭✭✭This MMO is two years older than ESO.
A world boss fight at 4:30pm EST on a weekday... (open the image in a new tab, enjoy counting the number of players on the screen -- I definitely would have been booted to login with the same numbers on ESO).
Stuff like this wouldnt be possible in ESO.
I had a huge discussion going on in craglorn the other day when i was complaining how dead it was, there were like 10 people running arround in belkarth at friday evening 7pm prime time and some dude came up with excuses like yeah its holliday time, people work, people go out people do these and these...
Okay cool but why these deadness is only in eso and other games perform so much better?
Welk Throne and Liberty is a new game but its EVERYWHERE full, group finder is CROSSPLAY and takes seconds, there is 100 people in 1/3 portals beating a boss and there is rewarding events like each hour.
Zos has nothing like this.
In Eso Halloween event coming again soon, its litetally the same event since 10 years, i cant be bothered even starting the quest for it.
Edited by MISTFORMBZZZ on October 23, 2024 9:00PM8 -
Necrotech_Master✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »This MMO is two years older than ESO.
A world boss fight at 4:30pm EST on a weekday... (open the image in a new tab, enjoy counting the number of players on the screen -- I definitely would have been booted to login with the same numbers on ESO).
Stuff like this wouldnt be possible in ESO.
I had a huge discussion going on in craglorn the other day when i was complaining how dead it was, there were like 10 people running arround in belkarth at friday evening 7pm prime time and some dude came up with excuses like yeah its holliday time, people work, people go out people do these and these...
Okay cool but why these deadness is only in eso and other games perform so much better?
Welk Throne and Liberty is a new game but its EVERYWHERE full, group finder is CROSSPLAY and takes seconds, there is 100 people in 1/3 portals beating a boss and there is rewarding events like each hour.
Zos has nothing like this.
In Eso Halloween event coming again soon, its litetally the same event since 10 years, i cant be bothered even starting the quest for it.
i dont think eso started doing holiday events until at least 2016 (first anniversary event, first witches festival, i think first new life festival too), so been more like 8 years
but i agree the general format and stuff to do during the event is like 98% the same every year (they sometimes add a little extra thing to do, this years witches festival its the lord hallowjack quest, but outside of that its the same activities)
i know i used to really farm out most events, but the quality of loot from basically everything except the witches festival is just not great outside of the once a day gold boxplays PC/NA
handle @Necrotech_Master
active player since april 2014
i have my main house (grand topal hideaway) listed in the housing tours, it has multiple target dummies, scribing altar, and grandmaster stations (in progress being filled out), as well as almost every antiquity furnishing on display to preview them
feel free to stop by and use the facilities4 -
Aurielle✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭manukartofanu wrote: »
Guild Wars 2. Not pictured: the players behind me, the players behind the boss, and the players flying above me on their dragon mounts. Feels pretty epic to fight a massive world boss with around 100 other people, WITHOUT watching everyone rubber band around you and WITHOUT crashing to the login screen…
Meanwhile, people get excited in ESO when they see twenty players and their pets huddled around a quest giver.
Edited by Aurielle on October 23, 2024 9:34PM7 -
Aurielle✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »This MMO is two years older than ESO.
A world boss fight at 4:30pm EST on a weekday... (open the image in a new tab, enjoy counting the number of players on the screen -- I definitely would have been booted to login with the same numbers on ESO).
Stuff like this wouldnt be possible in ESO.
I had a huge discussion going on in craglorn the other day when i was complaining how dead it was, there were like 10 people running arround in belkarth at friday evening 7pm prime time and some dude came up with excuses like yeah its holliday time, people work, people go out people do these and these...
Okay cool but why these deadness is only in eso and other games perform so much better?
Welk Throne and Liberty is a new game but its EVERYWHERE full, group finder is CROSSPLAY and takes seconds, there is 100 people in 1/3 portals beating a boss and there is rewarding events like each hour.
Zos has nothing like this.
In Eso Halloween event coming again soon, its litetally the same event since 10 years, i cant be bothered even starting the quest for it.
To be fair, there ARE some changes coming with the Halloween event this year.
But otherwise, yeah, fully agreed with you here. It took playing other MMOs again for me to realize how deserted ESO truly is these days — at least when it comes to activities that require teamwork. It could be that ESO simply just attracts more solo-minded players than typical MMOs. Solo players are more content to just do their own thing without queuing for dungeons, without going to Cyrodiil, without hanging around major trading hubs, etc. Mind you, on those rare occasions when I do venture out into zones to do quests in ESO, I don’t really encounter all that many obviously solo players along the way…1 -
fizzylu✭✭✭✭✭
✭
You know what will really shock ESO forum goers? The fact that GW2 weekly server maintenance can be done without shutting down the servers. Absolutely zero downtime.
Guild Wars 2. Not pictured: the players behind me, the players behind the boss, and the players flying above me on their dragon mounts. Feels pretty epic to fight a massive world boss with around 100 other people, WITHOUT watching everyone rubber band around you and WITHOUT crashing to the login screen…manukartofanu wrote: »What's the name of this game?
Meanwhile, people get excited in ESO when they see twenty players and their pets huddled around a quest giver.
Also important to note that GW2 was so solidly made and had so much thought put into it that it even has settings to turn down the appearance+number of players around you.... so even if you're playing on a 10+ year old gaming rig or a cheap laptop, you can participate in those world boss fights with close to zero lag (speaking from experience here).
ESO has many things I love about it.... but I'd be lying to myself and imo to those I say it to if I ever claimed it's a well-made game.... and I don't think the active playerbase is nearly as big as some people try to claim it is, either.Edited by fizzylu on October 23, 2024 10:09PM8 -
Auroan✭✭✭TLDR: The population is indeed decreasing, but it's primarily due to technical limitations and game balancing.
Yes, the population is shrinking. According to Steam, it's not even in the Top 100 anymore:
Source: https://store.steampowered.com/charts/mostplayed
When looking at the alternative Steam analytics, ESO has averaged around 10.5k players per month for the past 3 month. ESO hasn't averaged 10k monthly players since 2018, but the difference was that was a record. This time it's regression.
Source: https://steamcharts.com/app/306130
Contrary to what others may say, the games population is decreasing primarily because of technical limitations and balancing.
It's not because of lack of new features, or ZOS not listening, or anything like that. ZOS listens to the player base, and they've introduced a ton of new features over the years. We wanted Dragons, they gave us Dragon Bones DLC. We wanted Housing, we got Housing. We wanted Trasmog, they gave us Transmog. We wanted Spell Crafting, they gave us Grimoires. We wanted Account-Wide Achievements, they gave us Account-Wide Achievements. People will bash ZOS a lot about not listening to the players (I know I'm guilty of doing it at one point or another), amongst other things, but they really listen and they've done a ton of stuff for the game. That's why, even though it's failing, it's still the best MMO on the market, IMO.
I played Throne and Liberty and other new MMO's. They're all fine and dandy, but you'll notice very quickly the QOL and accessibility differences between them and ESO. ESO just has more to offer and usually does it better.
Using Throne and Liberty as an example since that's the most recent one I've played and is currently the top dog on Steam (most of them might be bots though, like Lost Ark):
-Throne and Liberty doesn't have a Transmog system, it has a Costume system via microtransactions. No MMO on the market has as good of a Transmog system as ESO.
-Throne and Liberty dungeons and raids are kitty level easy. They're quick and the final bosses only have like, two actual mechanics. Any end game raider in ESO will go there and realize how brain dead easy that content is. That's the same with pretty much every other MMO I've played as well. ESO sets a different type of standard when it comes to difficulty during end game group content.
-Guilds are limited to around 80 players where ESO gives 500.
-The story is forgettable and unengaging as compared to ESO's (which I admit has struggled recently).
-Stealing via Thieves Guild, Assassination's via Dark Brotherhood, Killing NPC's, etc. doesn't even exist in Throne and Liberty.
-Throne and Liberty's housing system, if you can even call it that, pales in comparison to ESO's.
-All character are tied to one account, so you don't need to add each individual character to your friends list, guild list, etc.
The list goes on. But ultimately, people tend to forget just how much ZOS has actually done with the game and how much it offers as far as content and quality of life compared to other games out (provided the game has also been out for 12+ years).
This is why I say their technical limitations and balancing are causing their downfall, not other reasons. The biggest backlashes that've caused the biggest upset to their player base numbers have always come from ZOS' balancing team and ZOS' game breaking bugs. The balancing team have tried to change how the core gameplay works on multiple occasions, trying to add channel times to shield casting, to trying to eliminate LA weaving, you name it. They've received very harsh backlash from it and proven they really don't know how to handle it because they want to be friendly to casual MMO players that've played nothing but Tab-Target GCD MMO's their entire life, but also realize that ESO stands out for a majority of players as having fun, action packed combat, while also realizing they have an Elder Scrolls title on their hands, which has a specific type of gameplay/combat to it that they have to adhere to.
The bugs have gotten tiring for a lot of people as well. DC'ing constantly, enemies getting stuck, enemies resetting, desyncs, etc. You name it. Some updates suffer a lot worse then others, and it really hurt their player base because that's the end game for a lot of players. That's why, as I explained earlier, ZOS listened to their player base and said, you know what, okay, no more 4 story updates a year, no more year long story, we're going to have a dedicated DLC as a QoL DLC to address these technical issues because we're losing players over how buggy and unbalanced our game is.
My personal opinion, it has to do with the fact that they're using the Hero Engine. There are only 3 known games that utilize the Hero Engine:
-SWTOR
-ESO
-Magic to Master (not out yet)
Most academic facilities will teach their students Unity or Unreal Engine (mine taught Unity). Most studios build their own engine to avoid paying royalties. ZOS has access to Creation Engine and could've used it, but Creation Engine back in 2012 wouldn't have been able to handle ESO. Skyrim couldn't even having more then 4 light sources, or 3 shadow casting objects without the game crashing. But they chose the Hero Engine out of all options probably due to finances/royalties. This is probably the source to all their issues because they're on a technically limited engine that hasn't been updated since no one even knows when. If they lose employees and have to hire new ones, they have to essentially relearn a brand new engine that's proven to be not so great, and ultimately, when you tie everything together, it creates a mess.
My take: If ESO pulled a FF14 and recreated itself on UE5, which is arguably the best and most used Engine on the market, and had employees that knew how to use UE5 (which is much more likely then finding individuals who know how to use the Hero Engine), you'd have a visually great MMO with no bugs. Then the only issue ESO would be facing is balancing. And that's pretty much the only thing that ZOS actually needs to listen to their community for in order to fix (I hear their balancing team hates feedback and doesn't listen to it).
Thanks for listening to my Ted Talk.Edited by Auroan on October 24, 2024 2:30AM"And the Scrolls have foretold, of black wings in the cold,That when brothers wage war come unfurled!Alduin, Bane of Kings, ancient shadow unbound,With a hunger to swallow the world!"60k Achievement Point Club6 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭This MMO is two years older than ESO.
A world boss fight at 4:30pm EST on a weekday... (open the image in a new tab, enjoy counting the number of players on the screen -- I definitely would have been booted to login with the same numbers on ESO).
@Aurielle
IIRC, GW2 is a good game, but its graphics and other aspects are lower quality. This is why the minimum requirements are notably less from the OS to the CPU.
They also have smaller servers. The server design is interesting, but it is smaller.
As I said, it's a good game but of lower quality overall. As such, it is not a good comparison. Their overworld design and performance are better than what we have in Cyrodiil.
0 -
Aurielle✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭This MMO is two years older than ESO.
A world boss fight at 4:30pm EST on a weekday... (open the image in a new tab, enjoy counting the number of players on the screen -- I definitely would have been booted to login with the same numbers on ESO).
@Aurielle
IIRC, GW2 is a good game, but its graphics and other aspects are lower quality. This is why the minimum requirements are notably less from the OS to the CPU.
They also have smaller servers. The server design is interesting, but it is smaller.
As I said, it's a good game but of lower quality overall. As such, it is not a good comparison. Their overworld design and performance are better than what we have in Cyrodiil.
This is a discussion about game population decline, not graphics. I posted a screenshot taken this week featuring more players in one location working towards a common goal than I’ve seen in ESO in a very, very, very long time. A lot of people here like to say that new MMOs like T&L are seeing significantly higher player numbers than ESO simply because they’re new MMOs. GW2 is older than ESO, however, and feels so much more alive.8 -
OtarTheMad✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭TLDR: The population is indeed decreasing, but it's primarily due to technical limitations and game balancing.
Yes, the population is shrinking. According to Steam, it's not even in the Top 100 anymore:
Source: https://store.steampowered.com/charts/mostplayed
When looking at the alternative Steam analytics, ESO has averaged around 10.5k players per month for the past 3 month. ESO hasn't averaged 10k monthly players since 2018, but the difference was that was a record. This time it's regression.
Source: https://steamcharts.com/app/306130
Contrary to what others may say, the games population is decreasing primarily because of technical limitations and balancing.
It's not because of lack of new features, or ZOS not listening, or anything like that. ZOS listens to the player base, and they've introduced a ton of new features over the years. We wanted Dragons, they gave us Dragon Bones DLC. We wanted Housing, we got Housing. We wanted Trasmog, they gave us Transmog. We wanted Spell Crafting, they gave us Grimoires. We wanted Account-Wide Achievements, they gave us Account-Wide Achievements. People will bash ZOS a lot about not listening to the players (I know I'm guilty of doing it at one point or another), amongst other things, but they really listen and they've done a ton of stuff for the game. That's why, even though it's failing, it's still the best MMO on the market, IMO.
I played Throne and Liberty and other new MMO's. They're all fine and dandy, but you'll notice very quickly the QOL and accessibility differences between them and ESO. ESO just has more to offer and usually does it better.
Using Throne and Liberty as an example since that's the most recent one I've played and is currently the top dog on Steam (most of them might be bots though, like Lost Ark):
-Throne and Liberty doesn't have a Transmog system, it has a Costume system via microtransactions. No MMO on the market has as good of a Transmog system as ESO.
-Throne and Liberty dungeons and raids are kitty level easy. They're quick and the final bosses only have like, two actual mechanics. Any end game raider in ESO will go there and realize how brain dead easy that content is. That's the same with pretty much every other MMO I've played as well. ESO sets a different type of standard when it comes to difficulty during end game group content.
-Guilds are limited to around 80 players where ESO gives 500.
-The story is forgettable and unengaging as compared to ESO's (which I admit has struggled recently).
-Stealing via Thieves Guild, Assassination's via Dark Brotherhood, Killing NPC's, etc. doesn't even exist in Throne and Liberty.
-Throne and Liberty's housing system, if you can even call it that, pales in comparison to ESO's.
-All character are tied to one account, so you don't need to add each individual character to your friends list, guild list, etc.
The list goes on. But ultimately, people tend to forget just how much ZOS has actually done with the game and how much it offers as far as content and quality of life compared to other games out (provided the game has also been out for 12+ years).
This is why I say their technical limitations and balancing are causing their downfall, not other reasons. The biggest backlashes that've caused the biggest upset to their player base numbers have always come from ZOS' balancing team and ZOS' game breaking bugs. The balancing team have tried to change how the core gameplay works on multiple occasions, trying to add channel times to shield casting, to trying to eliminate LA weaving, you name it. They've received very harsh backlash from it and proven they really don't know how to handle it because they want to be friendly to casual MMO players that've played nothing but Tab-Target GCD MMO's their entire life, but also realize that ESO stands out for a majority of players as having fun, action packed combat, while also realizing they have an Elder Scrolls title on their hands, which has a specific type of gameplay/combat to it that they have to adhere to.
The bugs have gotten tiring for a lot of people as well. DC'ing constantly, enemies getting stuck, enemies resetting, desyncs, etc. You name it. Some updates suffer a lot worse then others, and it really hurt their player base because that's the end game for a lot of players. That's why, as I explained earlier, ZOS listened to their player base and said, you know what, okay, no more 4 story updates a year, no more year long story, we're going to have a dedicated DLC as a QoL DLC to address these technical issues because we're losing players over how buggy and unbalanced our game is.
My personal opinion, it has to do with the fact that they're using the Hero Engine. There are only 3 known games that utilize the Hero Engine:
-SWTOR
-ESO
-Magic to Master (not out yet)
Most academic facilities will teach their students Unity or Unreal Engine (mine taught Unity). Most studios build their own engine to avoid paying royalties. ZOS has access to Havok and could've used it, but Havok back in 2012 wouldn't have been able to handle ESO. Skyrim couldn't even having more then 4 light sources, or 3 shadow casting objects without the game crashing. But they chose the Hero Engine out of all options probably due to finances/royalties. This is probably the source to all their issues because they're on a technically limited engine that hasn't been updated since no one even knows when. If they lose employees and have to hire new ones, they have to essentially relearn a brand new engine that's proven to be not so great, and ultimately, when you tie everything together, it creates a mess.
My take: If ESO pulled a FF14 and recreated itself on UE5, which is arguably the best and most used Engine on the market, and had employees that knew how to use UE5 (which is much more likely then finding individuals who know how to use the Hero Engine), you'd have a visually great MMO with no bugs. Then the only issue ESO would be facing is balancing. And that's pretty much the only thing that ZOS actually needs to listen to their community for in order to fix (I hear their balancing team hates feedback and doesn't listen to it).
Thanks for listening to my Ted Talk.
A lot of good points here and I find that I agree with but I do think that old consoles plays into it as well as Hero Engine. If PC can handle XYZ and new consoles can handle XYZ but old ones can’t then ZOS can’t do it. It’s hurting them and maybe they are a bit blind to it or maybe they have a contract they have to fulfill idk but that Matt Firor interview I posted in this thread or another was only from Necrom.
It doesn’t help that right now you have a ton of games coming out that are fun, so that pulls people away but I think that’s the new normal, having a lot of games to choose from. I’d like to see the difference between ESO now and ESO without old consoles. I’d be curious how much more they could do.
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