How will the AI that monitors our in-game chats effect RP?

Idelise · September 19

Arrodisia wrote: »

Idelise wrote: »

Grec1a wrote: »

Idelise wrote: »

Can someone also tell me which aforementioned Twitch streamer got banned for AI mod (and over what)?

No one is going to tell you, and risk getting banned themselves, when there is a screenshot of the stream about half a dozen posts above yours and you can go and check it out for yourself

I mean the screen did not say the word but I DID check the stream and found out (the Streamer did mention what he said in comments)

which stream is this? link it please. I read the other thread and there was no proof this was the reason they were suspended, only a self written text saying they were banned for this reason. That isn't proof.

Only an email sent directly from the devs to the player can confirm this.

You have the streamer name in the screenshot above, it's HammerTF

Arrodisia · September 19

Idelise wrote: »

Arrodisia wrote: »

Idelise wrote: »

Grec1a wrote: »

Idelise wrote: »

Can someone also tell me which aforementioned Twitch streamer got banned for AI mod (and over what)?

No one is going to tell you, and risk getting banned themselves, when there is a screenshot of the stream about half a dozen posts above yours and you can go and check it out for yourself

I mean the screen did not say the word but I DID check the stream and found out (the Streamer did mention what he said in comments)

which stream is this? link it please. I read the other thread and there was no proof this was the reason they were suspended, only a self written text saying they were banned for this reason. That isn't proof.

Only an email sent directly from the devs to the player can confirm this.

You have the streamer name in the screenshot above, it's HammerTF

Again there was no proof this was the reason they were suspended, only a self written text saying they were banned for this reason. That isn't proof.

Only an email sent directly from the devs to the player can confirm this. If they are the account holder they could've added proof but did not do so. Streamers have shown official communications in the past. This remains a completely unconfirmed statement and clickbait until they show the official email.

DenverRalphy · September 19

IncultaWolf wrote: »

This is real and is actually happening, I know people who were banned for making mature jokes to their friends in private whispers. Very concerning...

All that screenshot shows, is that someone was banned for a code of conduct violation. That violation could have been anything. Just because someone typed in their explanation on Notepad doesn't validate their claim. They could just as easily have been banned for something like harassment, don't have the stones to fess up to it, and in narcissistic angst decide to play innocent and blame ZoS.

I know which version I'm likely to believe.

baashdi_hobstocking · September 19

(different account)
9.5.24 account warning for TOS violation.

i had a lot of armor and buffs on, just healed,...
.... i got one hit stunned and killed.

i told a NPC boss off, cursed, up a storm .....got a TOS violation warning.
i was -alone, in a private instance dungeon-

this is real. this is happening.

i will always appreciate warnings,
.... but ..... this feels different, i stopped texting at all in game.

tyran404_ESO wrote: »

The problem lies in two things. This just doesn't effect RP. Below are two instances I've already had brought forward.

One Instance was a Private unreported PM that compared the far grave bubbles to something else. If neither consenting party in this pm was hurt why the disciplinary action? It is also an M rated game.

Another instance: Player tells a maelstrom arena boss to **** off in spacial chat, no one is around cause its maelstrom arena. They got flagged by the same automod. We wouldn't want the npcs feelings to get hurt i guess?

Secondly if it is a Bot doing? A Bot cannot understand or comprehend context. Which especially effects roleplayers.

Lets do an example of a roleplay scene, it is a combat between heroes and cultists: "Player A watches their friends suffer grievous wounds, they charge the menacing cultists and yell. "**** you!" as they charge with their sword out to end the cultists."

The bot could flag it and issue a automod warning if the example 2 is evidence.

Arrodisia · September 19

baashdi_hobstocking wrote: »

9.5.24 account warning for TOS violation.

i had a lot of armor and buffs on, just healed,...
.... i got one hit stunned and killed.

i told a NPC boss off, cursed, up a storm and .....got a TOS violation warning.
i was -alone, in a private instance dungeon-

this is real. this is happening.

i will always appreciate warnings,
.... but ..... this feels different, i stopped texting at all in game.

tyran404_ESO wrote: »

The problem lies in two things. This just doesn't effect RP. Below are two instances I've already had brought forward.

One Instance was a Private unreported PM that compared the far grave bubbles to something else. If neither consenting party in this pm was hurt why the disciplinary action? It is also an M rated game.

Another instance: Player tells a maelstrom arena boss to **** off in spacial chat, no one is around cause its maelstrom arena. They got flagged by the same automod. We wouldn't want the npcs feelings to get hurt i guess?

Secondly if it is a Bot doing? A Bot cannot understand or comprehend context. Which especially effects roleplayers.

Lets do an example of a roleplay scene, it is a combat between heroes and cultists: "Player A watches their friends suffer grievous wounds, they charge the menacing cultists and yell. "**** you!" as they charge with their sword out to end the cultists."

The bot could flag it and issue a automod warning if the example 2 is evidence.

This is a self written text which is not proof of anything. Besides, the same algorithms have been in place for many years in just about every MMO. I chat and joke all the time privately and openly with friends on all types of topics without any issues.
Now suddenly we're seeing a few unconfirmed clickbait reports of some IA chat drama.

Shara_Wynn · September 19

Well I guess the take away from all this is that your private messages online, are not (and probably never have been) private.

So we all just need to get used to the idea, as I doubt very much that, with AI enabled monitoring, much will slip through the net going forward. Meaning that the chances of getting "caught out" for going against a companies TOS just increased and will continue to do so exponentially, as AI improves.

ZOS will just be one of a plethora of companies all going down this same route.

gamma71 · September 19

I'm glad there cleaning up chat exspecially pvp where its the most toxic, I haven't turned on my voice chat on in ages because it's even worse that needs to be next. I still see gold farmers running there ads I guess there not on the AI list.

Vaqual · September 19

How can so many people miss the point so badly?

SuspensionDispersingAutomaton · September 19

DenverRalphy wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

This is real and is actually happening, I know people who were banned for making mature jokes to their friends in private whispers. Very concerning...

All that screenshot shows, is that someone was banned for a code of conduct violation. That violation could have been anything. Just because someone typed in their explanation on Notepad doesn't validate their claim. They could just as easily have been banned for something like harassment, don't have the stones to fess up to it, and in narcissistic angst decide to play innocent and blame ZoS.

I know which version I'm likely to believe.

Plenty of sceptics in this thread, which is understandable.
Here's mine:
imgur.com/zMlQAs0.png

This dungeon group was strictly with my close friends who did not report me, nor the party had any randoms in it, as I mention to the CS agent.
We consensually insult each other as a joke and take no offense at it, as we've been doing since the game's launch, and never had any issues with it until 13th of September 2024.
As I said in my first post here few pages ago, we only use edgelord language consensually in private, and are polite with strangers.

Of course there will be goody-two-shoes snowflakes who are going to be like "Noo, you can't use swears to your friends in private even if they are consenting and enjoy friendly banters such as this! Everybody has skin as thin as mine and will get offended by this! Also ToS prohibits it even in private chats! People like you should be banned!"
It's within your right to hold such an opinion and think you are the moral police, but the thread is about whether AI detecting bad language and giving suspensions automatically even to people who are consensually chatting to each other real or false, so here's one of the proofs.

KV_Tootn · September 19

imgur.com/zMlQAs0.png

OMG......... For real.. tHats why people now are bearly writing nothing in chat so much dungeons and noone talks or responds to groupchat.....

N00BxV1 · September 19

(Inspired by the "Cops" theme song)

Bad bots, bad bots.
Whatcha gonna do?
Whatcha gonna do when a bot bans you?
Bad bots, bad bots.
Whatcha gonna do?
Whatcha gonna do when a bot bans you?

Zone-chat naw give you no break.
Group-chat naw give you no break.
Not a Private-chat give you no break.
Not even you Roleplay naw give you no break.
Hey, hey.

Syldras · September 19

Looking at that screenshot, it's indeed just a normal swearword filter, just as I suspected.

valenwood_vegan · September 19

I appreciate that some actual evidence about what has been happening has finally been provided.

I of course don't know if this is really "AI" banning people on its own, or simply a word filter flagging things and resulting in overzealous chat moderation. I also don't know if certain players are being flagged based on past violations or warnings (though the way some seem to be willing to speak to other people suggests to me that this could be the case).

But it is concerning regardless and is likely to lead to fear and have a chilling effect on in-game communication.

While I realize that saying certain words or phrases in chat may have always been a technical violation of the ToS, it would seem that there has perhaps been a change in policy resulting in stricter moderation, and including some kind of increased or new proactive monitoring of group chats and whispers (which players may believe, based on past experience, are actually private chats among their friends).

If so, this should be communicated very clearly to the community. Although everyone should ideally read and understand the ToS and related documents, the reality is that few read them and a sort of cliff notes version of what is prohibited, with references back to the ToS for further details, might help players avoid getting into trouble. And if expectations have changed or are being more strictly and proactively enforced, this should also have been communicated to players.

ZoS should also consider issuing warnings or at least lesser punishments such as a social ban, rather than full bans initially, with the goal of educating players as to what behavior is expected in chat, before swinging that ban hammer and creating a lot of tickets, appeals, and angry customers.

And, whatever this chat moderation system is, it should be carefully targeted and there should be human involvement to review context and avoid false positives; and to ensure that when false positives *are* identified, the system is adjusted to account for them.

I hope you will get back to us on this soon, @ZOS_Kevin

[Couple edits for typos, haven't had enough coffee today].

alternatelder · September 19

KV_Tootn wrote: »

imgur.com/zMlQAs0.png

OMG......... For real.. tHats why people now are bearly writing nothing in chat so much dungeons and noone talks or responds to groupchat.....

Deserves a perma ban for that response to support. I can only assume if you (even jokingly) talk like this to your friends, you probably treat randoms the same way. Seems like a good way to cleanse the toxicity from the game.

Vaqual · September 19

alternatelder wrote: »

KV_Tootn wrote: »

imgur.com/zMlQAs0.png

OMG......... For real.. tHats why people now are bearly writing nothing in chat so much dungeons and noone talks or responds to groupchat.....

Deserves a perma ban for that response to support. I can only assume if you (even jokingly) talk like this to your friends, you probably treat randoms the same way. Seems like a good way to cleanse the toxicity from the game.

Are you implying there is a correct way to talk to friends?

JavaRen · September 19

alternatelder wrote: »

KV_Tootn wrote: »

imgur.com/zMlQAs0.png

OMG......... For real.. tHats why people now are bearly writing nothing in chat so much dungeons and noone talks or responds to groupchat.....

Deserves a perma ban for that response to support. I can only assume if you (even jokingly) talk like this to your friends, you probably treat randoms the same way. Seems like a good way to cleanse the toxicity from the game.

From a purely pragmatic, strategic point of view it is a baaaad idea to communicate with CS in that way when you want them to use their discretion in your favor.

tomofhyrule · September 19

alternatelder wrote: »

KV_Tootn wrote: »

imgur.com/zMlQAs0.png

OMG......... For real.. tHats why people now are bearly writing nothing in chat so much dungeons and noone talks or responds to groupchat.....

Deserves a perma ban for that response to support. I can only assume if you (even jokingly) talk like this to your friends, you probably treat randoms the same way. Seems like a good way to cleanse the toxicity from the game.

I agree that response to support was uncalled for and deserves action.

However, (and I’ll use if here for those who still believe this is a hoax) if this ban was issued automatically before the actionable response to support, was that an appropriate action to have taken in a consenting group? Would it not be most appropriate to start by issuing warnings if ZOS is going to start actioning all chat contents now so players know that consequences are forthcoming?

Essentially, as you said…

alternatelder wrote: »

I can only assume if you (even jokingly) talk like this to your friends, you probably treat randoms the same way.

You assume they probably treat randoms that way? So it’s appropriate to ban based on the assumption someone will probably be toxic?

…wasn’t there a fairly well-known movie that showed that prosecution of a crime before it’s actually committed is some dystopian-level thing that is to be avoided?

alternatelder · September 19

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Essentially, as you said…

alternatelder wrote: »

I can only assume if you (even jokingly) talk like this to your friends, you probably treat randoms the same way.

You assume they probably treat randoms that way? So it’s appropriate to ban based on the assumption someone will probably be toxic?

…wasn’t there a fairly well-known movie that showed that prosecution of a crime before it’s actually committed is some dystopian-level thing that is to be avoided?

I mean, when you jump straight to bashing rather than explaining in a civil manner, I don't think my assumptions were wrong.

Syldras · September 19

In the end, it's simple: Everyone who plays this game has accepted the TOS (including a code of conduct). If the TOS say you aren't allowed to use slurs, swear, or talk about some types of topics (e.g. drugs, sex), you aren't, no matter in which context. It doesn't matter if it harms anyone, it doesn't matter what I think of it, you have accepted the rule not to write about this.

And if you have accepted the rules, the rules can be enforced (they don't have to be, as we see nothing happened until recently, but they can, and that's what they're doing now).

We complain all we want, they will not suddenly change the TOS to allow slurs, swearing, etc. Or at least that would be unexpected.

In the end we have to live with it, and all we can do is to act accordingly. e.g. either avoid these topics altogether - or be more creative in your insults, erp or whatever you are doing

And please don't complain about me now. I'm not the one who made these rules, I'm just pointing out that we have accepted them to play the game, so ZOS is allowed to enforce them.

The main point to discuss for me now is the problem of false positives. Like being banned for using a word that's harmless in one language, but is perceived as a slur in another and therefore triggers the filter. Or cases in which people are only quoting a slur that they have been insulted with, telling a friend or guild leader about an incident.

SuspensionDispersingAutomaton · September 19

alternatelder wrote: »

KV_Tootn wrote: »

imgur.com/zMlQAs0.png

OMG......... For real.. tHats why people now are bearly writing nothing in chat so much dungeons and noone talks or responds to groupchat.....

Deserves a perma ban for that response to support. I can only assume if you (even jokingly) talk like this to your friends, you probably treat randoms the same way. Seems like a good way to cleanse the toxicity from the game.

I guess you enjoy being banned for nothing when no one was offended and being polite with the support for the game that I no longer wish to play due to abusive auto-moderation.
Not my thing, personally, especially after there were no issues for 10 years.

And if you only knew how my friends call me back in return... (but curiously, none of them were banned, despite many of us using bad words as jokes in private towards each other that day).
But keep being a moral police and assume how I treat randoms, despite me gifting millions to new people and crafting sets for them for free out of kindness, and deciding for my thick-skinned friends, who don't take typed letters serious what language they should enjoy instead of them.
The bold part in my previous post described you perfectly.
And don't worry, I 'permabanned' myself already by uninstalling the game.

Said that, I absolutely agree that people who are rude to RANDOMS (even in whispers) and insult others in public chats should receive penalties.
My opinion was only that the private chats among friends who enjoy such kind of banter was to remain unmoderated by an AI out of context.

KV_Tootn · September 19

alternatelder wrote: »

KV_Tootn wrote: »

imgur.com/zMlQAs0.png

OMG......... For real.. tHats why people now are bearly writing nothing in chat so much dungeons and noone talks or responds to groupchat.....

Deserves a perma ban for that response to support. I can only assume if you (even jokingly) talk like this to your friends, you probably treat randoms the same way. Seems like a good way to cleanse the toxicity from the game.

Why does he need to be chill? Whatever hapens in private messages or in groupchats betveen friends is nothing. We bash us each time and talk sh*it, noone gets offended , but to see that all efort of your gaming from beta is destroyed by baning for a a pfrase ingame, is just stupid.. Im sorry.. I talked with people who play here from start . They are starting to move away from this game.. While this is hapening.. We have few nearly bling and otherly inpaired ppl in our guild and sometimes they write funny things.. That shouldnt be banable . we know them well . Noone talkkes offence, but ai does. So disabled people cant even aford to make failure.....

tomofhyrule · September 19

alternatelder wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Essentially, as you said…

alternatelder wrote: »

I can only assume if you (even jokingly) talk like this to your friends, you probably treat randoms the same way.

You assume they probably treat randoms that way? So it’s appropriate to ban based on the assumption someone will probably be toxic?

…wasn’t there a fairly well-known movie that showed that prosecution of a crime before it’s actually committed is some dystopian-level thing that is to be avoided?

I mean, when you jump straight to bashing rather than explaining in a civil manner, I don't think my assumptions were wrong.

...

again, the "I was right" came after the ban.

But still, are we to say that, as long as we can assume someone is toxic, that's enough to ban them? I'm sure that will make the PvE community very happy, since one of the primary reasons that people avoid PvP is that they assume everyone who mains PvP is toxic. So therefore, since we can assume everyone who mains PvP is toxic, we can just ban all PvPers, right?

Obviously a joke. But this could lead to a slippery slope.

Let's consider another example. There' ve always been threads posting that people are offended by (and therefore consider toxic and anti-player) when others do things like use obnoxious emotes, or flashy mounts, or mudballs. We know that ZOS considers those as actionable offenses if someone asks you to stop and you don't. But now, if we're saying that all toxic behavior is actionable, whether reported or not, and we know that some people object to being mudballed, would it not also follow that mudballing someone who does not consent is a sign of toxicity?
Especially if someone did it solely because they didn't approve of what that player is wearing?

alternatelder wrote: »

I still mudball every single person I see wearing this ridiculous polymorph, and I won't stop.

idk, sounds like it could be construed as toxic to certain players. And as you said, if people treat some players this way, who's to say they won't treat all players with a similar amount of disdain...

Look, I have no problem with a Code of Conduct existing, and it's obvious that we have all signed it. However, if ZOS is going to start strictly enforcing it after 10+ years of letting parts of it slide due to nuance, we the players deserve at least a arening that the enforcement will be changing before bans are handed out. And as the player has mentioned, others said similar things and were not actioned, so it seems that there is also inconsistency in the enforcement.

Juomuuri · September 19

Oh, this explains a lot actually...

SilverBride · September 19

This week is almost over and we still have not received a response.

Wolfkeks · September 19

SuspensionDispersingAutomaton wrote: »

(but curiously, none of them were banned, despite many of us using bad words as jokes in private towards each other that day)

Might only be specific words that trigger the system. Had two occasions where someone was name calling other players in random normals during the event and they still play.
Not sure if it's AI it just the the same system that is used for the profanity filter though.

Reminds me of the system in club penguin tbh

Edit: typos

Idelise · September 19

I also want to point out that certain words have completely different... uh, severity rate depending on a country?
Like a certain 4-letter word starting with c and ending in T is seen as horrid between Americans - but in UK it's used pretty casually and sometimes as a term of endearment between friends. Like. Sometimes certain words are really used in a very casual form without malicious layer to it.

alternatelder · September 19

tomofhyrule wrote: »

alternatelder wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Essentially, as you said…

alternatelder wrote: »

I can only assume if you (even jokingly) talk like this to your friends, you probably treat randoms the same way.

You assume they probably treat randoms that way? So it’s appropriate to ban based on the assumption someone will probably be toxic?

…wasn’t there a fairly well-known movie that showed that prosecution of a crime before it’s actually committed is some dystopian-level thing that is to be avoided?

I mean, when you jump straight to bashing rather than explaining in a civil manner, I don't think my assumptions were wrong.

...

again, the "I was right" came after the ban.

But still, are we to say that, as long as we can assume someone is toxic, that's enough to ban them? I'm sure that will make the PvE community very happy, since one of the primary reasons that people avoid PvP is that they assume everyone who mains PvP is toxic. So therefore, since we can assume everyone who mains PvP is toxic, we can just ban all PvPers, right?

Obviously a joke. But this could lead to a slippery slope.

Let's consider another example. There' ve always been threads posting that people are offended by (and therefore consider toxic and anti-player) when others do things like use obnoxious emotes, or flashy mounts, or mudballs. We know that ZOS considers those as actionable offenses if someone asks you to stop and you don't. But now, if we're saying that all toxic behavior is actionable, whether reported or not, and we know that some people object to being mudballed, would it not also follow that mudballing someone who does not consent is a sign of toxicity?
Especially if someone did it solely because they didn't approve of what that player is wearing?

alternatelder wrote: »

I still mudball every single person I see wearing this ridiculous polymorph, and I won't stop.

idk, sounds like it could be construed as toxic to certain players. And as you said, if people treat some players this way, who's to say they won't treat all players with a similar amount of disdain...

Look, I have no problem with a Code of Conduct existing, and it's obvious that we have all signed it. However, if ZOS is going to start strictly enforcing it after 10+ years of letting parts of it slide due to nuance, we the players deserve at least a arening that the enforcement will be changing before bans are handed out. And as the player has mentioned, others said similar things and were not actioned, so it seems that there is also inconsistency in the enforcement.

So you're just browsing through comments I made so you could pick and chose what you feel is toxic? This isn't even the same topic. 😅

SuspensionDispersingAutomaton · September 19

Wolfkeks wrote: »

SuspensionDispersingAutomaton wrote: »

(but curiously, none of them were banned, despite many of us using bad words as jokes in private towards each other that day)

Might only be specific words that trigger the system. Had two occasions where someone was name calling other players in random normals during the event and they still play.
Not sure if it's AI it just the the same system that is used for the profanity filter though.

Reminds me of the system in club penguin tbh

Edit: typos

It sure does.
Minecraft Realms (Microsoft-hosted servers integrated into the main menu, as opposed to player-hosted servers with no restrictions) also have a very abusive auto-ban system for people who swear, and these bans are similarly given when no one was reported.
But this was in Minecraft Realms for years. In ESO, it only started 1 week ago. Late to the party, I guess.
Maybe selling to Microsoft wasn't such a good thing...

https://old.reddit.com/r/realms/comments/x5o4wy/just_got_banned_for_a_week_on_my_own_realm/
https://old.reddit.com/r/Minecraft/comments/xiw3si/minecraft_realm_bans/

Sleepsin · September 19

It doesn't take a week to come back with a response claiming there is nothing behind AI monitoring private chat. This silence means it is much more nefarious then we suspect.

Elsonso · September 19

Seems to me that it is prudent to move person-to-person voice and chat between friends and other consenting adults, off of ZOS, XBox, and Microsoft services.

A lot of people don't maintain a puritan demeanor at all times.