Why many adornments still gender limited when there are already non-binary characters in game

Lykeion · September 12

Is allowing a male to wear a flower in his hair even harder than adding a brand new gender to the game?

Will this be another technical difficulty that could blow up the entire game and take years to solve?

Wolfkeks · September 12

If all costumes are available to any gender it should be the same with adornments. And they should also update the adornments regarding the different races. My Khajiits can't wear the blindfold or the begonia flower and it's so annoying.

xclassgaming · September 12

Wolfkeks wrote: »

If all costumes are available to any gender it should be the same with adornments. And they should also update the adornments regarding the different races. My Khajiits can't wear the blindfold or the begonia flower and it's so annoying.

to this day ill never understand why elves can't use the elven braid..(only khajiits can)

Syldras · September 12

Lykeion wrote: »

Is allowing a male to wear a flower in his hair even harder than adding a brand new gender to the game?
Will this be another technical difficulty that could blow up the entire game and take years to solve?

They didn't change a thing technically, they just use the same old character model. Only the character description is different.

But yes, I'm all for making all adornments available for every character. But I don't believe they will, as in many cases it would mean they have to do some rework, which means efforts they gain nothing from.

wilykcat · September 12

I agree. The same should go for all character customization options and cosmetics to be made available for both genders.

tsaescishoeshiner · September 13

I'd love the basegame flower adornments for my male characters!

I assume we don't have them because it would be an addition to an already-released cosmetic, rather than a new one to sell or earn.

TDVM · September 13

It's just that it's not necessary

Syldras · September 13

TDVM wrote: »

It's just that it's not necessary

What's neccessary when it comes to cosmetics?! But there are styles that would look good on all characters, but are limited right now. Hairstyles, especially.

virtus753 · September 13

Syldras wrote: »

TDVM wrote: »

It's just that it's not necessary

What's neccessary when it comes to cosmetics?! But there are styles that would look good on all characters, but are limited right now. Hairstyles, especially.

Same with dance styles. It was not necessary to make some styles exclusive based on the gender selection in character creation. It was not necessary to include them at all. We know they look fine on all characters thanks to the polymorph workaround, so why keep the artificial limitation by gender?

Wolfkeks wrote: »

If all costumes are available to any gender it should be the same with adornments..

Not all costumes are available to any gender, alas. Look at the Baker's costumes. The pants Baker's costume is only for "male" characters. The dress Baker's costume is only for "female" characters. That was a dated attitude half a century ago.

There are also titles that are forcibly gendered, including one they retroactively changed (Empieror to Empieress).

There's lot of work to be done here on equal access to cosmetics of all sorts.

TheMajority · September 13

while we are at it can we PLEASE make all the hairstyle available to all gender/body type PLEASE because there is a lot of long hair style for the feminine body type which could be very cool for male character. like the one where its long hair and partially covers the face.

there is even pony tail which has the same base scalp as the male long braid and some other male hair style but for some reason, they don't give the masculine body this longer pony tail type... this would be 5 minutes of work to put the pony tail on the scalp fitted to the male already, I know how to do it even from mod the sims

I wish I was dev.

please make my hanfu cosplay fantasy for my wife and I work even better with these hair styles

also can we have a version of all earrings which is only in one ear, because I like to wear only one ear ring in the ear of some of my male characters

virtus753 wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

TDVM wrote: »

It's just that it's not necessary

What's neccessary when it comes to cosmetics?! But there are styles that would look good on all characters, but are limited right now. Hairstyles, especially.

Same with dance styles. It was not necessary to make some styles exclusive based on the gender selection in character creation. It was not necessary to include them at all. We know they look fine on all characters thanks to the polymorph workaround, so why keep the artificial limitation by gender?

Wolfkeks wrote: »

If all costumes are available to any gender it should be the same with adornments..

Not all costumes are available to any gender, alas. Look at the Baker's costumes. The pants Baker's costume is only for "male" characters. The dress Baker's costume is only for "female" characters. That was a dated attitude half a century ago.

There are also titles that are forcibly gendered, including one they retroactively changed (Empieror to Empieress).

There's lot of work to be done here on equal access to cosmetics of all sorts.

I don't get why they just cant give both title when you get the title. Like if you have emperor cant they just let you have emperor and empress so you can give your character the title you would feel comforting with? why do it have to be bound by the body type

Shara_Wynn · September 13

Seems fair. All genders should be able to access all adornments, facial hair, hair styles, costumes etc.

zaria · September 13

Wolfkeks wrote: »

If all costumes are available to any gender it should be the same with adornments. And they should also update the adornments regarding the different races. My Khajiits can't wear the blindfold or the begonia flower and it's so annoying.

Khajiit and argonians uses an different head model than humanoids so they use another model of the items, you can see this on headbands.
Same for hair, many clips the khajiit ears.

Not the same reason as for sexes.

LikiLoki · September 13

This is a policy of double standards

TDVM · September 13

Syldras wrote: »

TDVM wrote: »

It's just that it's not necessary

What's neccessary when it comes to cosmetics?! But there are styles that would look good on all characters, but are limited right now. Hairstyles, especially.

Be happy with what you've got, don't ask me to change the game to suit you.

TDVM · September 13

virtus753 wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

TDVM wrote: »

It's just that it's not necessary

What's neccessary when it comes to cosmetics?! But there are styles that would look good on all characters, but are limited right now. Hairstyles, especially.

Same with dance styles. It was not necessary to make some styles exclusive based on the gender selection in character creation. It was not necessary to include them at all. We know they look fine on all characters thanks to the polymorph workaround, so why keep the artificial limitation by gender?

There's nothing wrong with having something tied to gender, it's fine. You can put any hairstyle on a male character (unless you want to put an Argonian hairstyle on a human). You can put any clothing on any character. Why inflate a non-existent problem and make a tragedy out of it. Do you seriously think that instead of doing something useful for the game and developing it, developers should be doing this and wasting their time?

robwolf666 · September 13

Nothing wrong with leaving some things gender specific imo. Some things just don't look good on the opposite gender for who they're made for.

BetweenMidgets · September 13

I'm not saying they should or shouldn't do these things, but honestly on the list of things I'd like ZoS to address, balance, classes, desync, and lag are much higher on my priority list.

I hope they're higher on ZoS priority list, too.

The features you all mention would be pleasant, but it isn't what is driving players away from the game.

Cheers.

ZOS_Icy · September 13

Greetings,

We have recently removed some unnecessary back and forth from this thread. This is a reminder to keep the discussion civil and constructive. Please keep our Community Rules in mind moving forward.

Thank you for your understanding.

Syldras · September 13

TDVM wrote: »

Be happy with what you've got, don't ask me to change the game to suit you.

TDVM wrote: »

There's nothing wrong with having something tied to gender, it's fine. You can put any hairstyle on a male character (unless you want to put an Argonian hairstyle on a human). You can put any clothing on any character. Why inflate a non-existent problem and make a tragedy out of it. Do you seriously think that instead of doing something useful for the game and developing it, developers should be doing this and wasting their time?

Suggesting to make gender-locked items available for all characters is not "making a tragedy out of it", but just the same thing people are doing on the forum every day: saying what they like or dislike about a game feature and what they would prefer or how that feature might be changed in the future.

In case it's the "gender" part that bothers you: All I want is more hairstyles with longer hair for male characters. There is no logical reason why a male character can have this hair:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/File:ON-hairstyle-Coil_with_Long_Fall.jpg
But not this:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Maximum_Ponytail

Changing this wouldn't "waste" any more developer time than putting weird things into the crown store.

JemadarofCaerSalis · September 14

Syldras wrote: »

TDVM wrote: »

Be happy with what you've got, don't ask me to change the game to suit you.

TDVM wrote: »

There's nothing wrong with having something tied to gender, it's fine. You can put any hairstyle on a male character (unless you want to put an Argonian hairstyle on a human). You can put any clothing on any character. Why inflate a non-existent problem and make a tragedy out of it. Do you seriously think that instead of doing something useful for the game and developing it, developers should be doing this and wasting their time?

Suggesting to make gender-locked items available for all characters is not "making a tragedy out of it", but just the same thing people are doing on the forum every day: saying what they like or dislike about a game feature and what they would prefer or how that feature might be changed in the future.

In case it's the "gender" part that bothers you: All I want is more hairstyles with longer hair for male characters. There is no logical reason why a male character can have this hair:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/File:ON-hairstyle-Coil_with_Long_Fall.jpg
But not this:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Maximum_Ponytail

Changing this wouldn't "waste" any more developer time than putting weird things into the crown store.

This.

Especially with things like flowers and adornments, I sometimes would love to use them, because I like flowers. However, I play strictly male characters, and thus, they often are gender-locked, even if it doesn't particularly make sense.

In the Facial Hair section of UESP, they list three eyelash features as being for female only. Why can't males use them? There is also at least one other eyelash, that looks like it adds something like eyeshadow, that can be used by both males and females. Yet, the more subtle versions are female only.

For hair, apparently males can part their hair in the middle and brush it straight down, but women can't. Just as males can put a bun in their hair, and allow the rest to fall free, while females can use the bun, AND braid the rest of their hair. So, it is also wrong to say that we can put any hairstyle on any character, because we can't. There are some that are only for males and some that are only for females.

For major adornments, a lot of the more elegant circlets are female only. One of my favorite things in Skyrim was putting circlets on every companion I could get to wear one.

there are several earrings for female characters only.

None of those items are inheritantly female only. even in 'Real Life' men can wear earrings, circlets, style their hair into braids, have eyelashes and so on.

Is it a high priority? Not for me at least, but I would love it, and it would give me more use for collectibles if so many of the types that I am drawn to weren't only for female characters.

TheMajority · September 14

robwolf666 wrote: »

Nothing wrong with leaving some things gender specific imo. Some things just don't look good on the opposite gender for who they're made for.

That's not a thing you get to decide for me or anybody. What I think looks good on a masculine or feminine body type and what you think looks good is two different things and we should get to decide what to wear because of our own deciding, not on some old idea over who should wear what hairs, clothes, or adornment.

moderatelyfatman · September 14

I think the problem is that every one of these changes would require some reskinning which takes away resources from the art department creating new sellable content.

robwolf666 · September 14

TheMajority wrote: »

robwolf666 wrote: »

Nothing wrong with leaving some things gender specific imo. Some things just don't look good on the opposite gender for who they're made for.

That's not a thing you get to decide for me or anybody.

Where did I say it was? A classic tale of reading too much into something.

Toanis · September 14

Unpopular to say it, but like in real life, there is a difference between someone being excluded or no practical reason (here: devs putting in extra effort to block male characters from having flowers in their hair, because males are not supposed to have flowers in their hair.) or when where there actually is a reason and the thing in question would need to be changed to the point where its basically replaced with something new (here: devs not putting in extra effort to fix horrible clipping issues with accessories designed for the opposite sex.)

Seeing the rest of the game, I'm pretty sure, the reasons for gender locked accessories are not political but technical and financial (too much effort for too little revenue)

YandereGirlfriend · September 14

This is a really good question. These restrictions definitely should come down.

JemadarofCaerSalis · September 14

Toanis wrote: »

Unpopular to say it, but like in real life, there is a difference between someone being excluded or no practical reason (here: devs putting in extra effort to block male characters from having flowers in their hair, because males are not supposed to have flowers in their hair.) or when where there actually is a reason and the thing in question would need to be changed to the point where its basically replaced with something new (here: devs not putting in extra effort to fix horrible clipping issues with accessories designed for the opposite sex.)

Seeing the rest of the game, I'm pretty sure, the reasons for gender locked accessories are not political but technical and financial (too much effort for too little revenue)

Personally, I don't think it is a matter of it being political, technical or financial. Just a decision someone made that they thought would be good to give the different sexes 'something special'.

For many of the accessories, it shouldn't take much to make them work on the opposite sex. Just went into the character creation and flipped between the sexes on all the races I had available (might have missed imperial), and the males *might* have a slightly wider face than females.

So, there shouldn't be all that many clipping issues with many of the accessories. Because, as far as I can tell, the difference between the sexes is minor. Argonians and Khajiit might have more problems as it looked like argonians have a slightly different tilt between the sexes and khajiit might have slightly different face shapes.

virtus753 · September 14

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

I think the problem is that every one of these changes would require some reskinning which takes away resources from the art department creating new sellable content.

Every one? What reskins would be required to enable equal access to all titles and dances?

We know Empieror works just as well on a female character as on a male character because there was no Empieress before ZOS retroactively changed it after it reached live. I have no problem with Empieress being made available. I’m glad people have that option, since there were many who wanted it. I have a problem with Empieror being made unavailable (and after the fact, to boot).

We can also see what “male” dances look like on female characters using a workaround. The result, from a technical perspective, is not better or worse. It works equally well as is — the problem is one of access, not of art.

I cannot say what adornments or costumes would look like without art adjustments. But personally I would view any work done there as part of updating the game, which they do regularly. Expanding player choice is a good thing to my mind, whether that means in terms of combat or cosmetic options.

If there were work to be done for adornments or costumes, it could also be a good opportunity to allow color choice for jewelry, which has also been a longtime request.

ArchMikem · September 14

Are things Gender locked, or Sex locked?

This is making me think of bearded ladies. Are beards adornments?

JemadarofCaerSalis · September 14

ArchMikem wrote: »

Are things Gender locked, or Sex locked?

This is making me think of bearded ladies. Are beards adornments?

There are some beards that are adornment and they are only for the male character, at least from what I have found.

robwolf666 · September 14

ArchMikem wrote: »

Are things Gender locked, or Sex locked?

This is making me think of bearded ladies. Are beards adornments?

Oh, don't say that, it'll give me flashbacks of stumbling across Ladybaby on Twitter awhile back, the eyes needed washing drops after that. Funniest thing I'd seen on there mind you.

Syldras · September 14

ArchMikem wrote: »

Are things Gender locked, or Sex locked?

If we want to be precise, the aspect chosen in the character creator is the body type.

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

There are some beards that are adornment and they are only for the male character, at least from what I have found.

I think some of them are available for all characters. I mean, why not?! Most look like fake beards anyway. Could roleplay-wise be used as a part of a disguise, for example.