Competitive 4v4

Einstein_

I am one of this "tryhard pvpers" Brain called out in his stream...

PVP is the only content i play in ESO and i have around 10000-12000h of playtime in an all different game modes related to PVP (Dueling/community tournaments, 1vXing
, Ballgrouping, smallscale and some BGs (dont like BGs atm)).
I also played other MMOs before, where my main focus was some sort of "completive" PvP, so all in all i think i have a descend understanding of what's going on in PVP.

First the Positive:
- having a 4v4 instead of a 4v4v4 is great !!
- the maps are not to big and focus on PvP
- Rewards hidden behind a ranking is also great !!

The Neutral:
- I am still very unsure if the game modes will once again favor tanks that just stack and become unkillable on objectives. The team around Brain Wheeler needs to make sure this doesn’t happen..

The Bad:
- you cant mix up group and solo queue !!, a well setup 4 man will role over any solo queue group. Having fights that are doomed to loose is not fun.
- The ranking/MMR system is the worst part of this whole thing. Any MMR system should be designed in a way that it represents skill level and NOT only how much you play. The system of having your medals tied to your MMR is bad—not only does it reward playing a lot more than playing well, but it is also very easy to abuse (see spoiler).
If your goal is to make something 'tryhard competitive,' you need to implement an MMR system that is tied to skill, where you lose and gain points based on being good or bad.

If I play 10 hours every day but I’m not performing well, I should never be able to reach rank 1.
If I don’t play well, I should lose my MMR/rank!

Since I know how poorly community feedback works every time there is a PTS cycle, I don’t have high expectations. The only thing we can hope for is that there’s enough good and constructive feedback in the forum.
I hope the community managers are able to extract the good information out of all the bla bla in the Forum and pass it to Brain's team.

Spoiler

For example, you can play as a Nightblade healer with a high crit burst heal from stealth, and your friend runs a high HP build. Every time his HP drops low, you give them that insane critical heal and earn a medal every time.

Jierdanit

Basically agree with everything here.

Mixing premades and solo players is a horrible idea that's just going to lead to solo players not playing at all after they got farmed a few times.

And the MMR systems needs to focus more on performance in each BG than how much you play.

In general it's definitely a step in the right direction though.

NuarBlack

If you only make the system with Try hards in mind then that is all you will have playing, so like 0.001% of the population and it will be a dead game mode.

As far as MMR goes? Eliminate it completely. It never works and it only encourages cheating, smurfing and other poor behavior. An MMO is never going to be like a Moba.

You want bad players to play forever. That's what keeps the game mode populated. So they should be encouraged to do so. They should get incremental progress just for showing up. Just don't create a dumb MMR system and they are fine. Create ways for try hards to advance faster, sure. Maybe even a few pinnacle achievements with cosmetic rewards but you will only kill the mode with any sort of MMR system.

Einstein_

NuarBlack wrote: »

If you only make the system with Try hards in mind then that is all you will have playing, so like 0.001% of the population and it will be a dead game mode.

As far as MMR goes? Eliminate it completely. It never works and it only encourages cheating, smurfing and other poor behavior. An MMO is never going to be like a Moba.

You want bad players to play forever. That's what keeps the game mode populated. So they should be encouraged to do so. They should get incremental progress just for showing up. Just don't create a dumb MMR system and they are fine. Create ways for try hards to advance faster, sure. Maybe even a few pinnacle achievements with cosmetic rewards but you will only kill the mode with any sort of MMR system.

We already have 0 MMR mode Cyrodil/IC/8v8. In IC and cyro you can offset this skill gap by outnumbering your enemy, that doesn't work in BGs.

i think without MMR its just beginners getting clapped by pros and loose interest on both sides.

CameraBeardThePirate

NuarBlack wrote: »

If you only make the system with Try hards in mind then that is all you will have playing, so like 0.001% of the population and it will be a dead game mode.

As far as MMR goes? Eliminate it completely. It never works and it only encourages cheating, smurfing and other poor behavior. An MMO is never going to be like a Moba.

You want bad players to play forever. That's what keeps the game mode populated. So they should be encouraged to do so. They should get incremental progress just for showing up. Just don't create a dumb MMR system and they are fine. Create ways for try hards to advance faster, sure. Maybe even a few pinnacle achievements with cosmetic rewards but you will only kill the mode with any sort of MMR system.

You realize there are two modes right? One with MMR and one without? If you don't want it to be sweaty, play 8v8.

NuarBlack

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

NuarBlack wrote: »

If you only make the system with Try hards in mind then that is all you will have playing, so like 0.001% of the population and it will be a dead game mode.

As far as MMR goes? Eliminate it completely. It never works and it only encourages cheating, smurfing and other poor behavior. An MMO is never going to be like a Moba.

You want bad players to play forever. That's what keeps the game mode populated. So they should be encouraged to do so. They should get incremental progress just for showing up. Just don't create a dumb MMR system and they are fine. Create ways for try hards to advance faster, sure. Maybe even a few pinnacle achievements with cosmetic rewards but you will only kill the mode with any sort of MMR system.

You realize there are two modes right? One with MMR and one without? If you don't want it to be sweaty, play 8v8.

It's not sweaty that I'm worried about.

It's if it's sweaty in a way that encourages exploitation rather than honest sweaty competition it will become a dead game mode

Thumbless_Bot

Einstein_ wrote: »

I am one of this "tryhard pvpers" Brain called out in his stream...

PVP is the only content i play in ESO and i have around 10000-12000h of playtime in an all different game modes related to PVP (Dueling/community tournaments, 1vXing
, Ballgrouping, smallscale and some BGs (dont like BGs atm)).
I also played other MMOs before, where my main focus was some sort of "completive" PvP, so all in all i think i have a descend understanding of what's going on in PVP.

First the Positive:
- having a 4v4 instead of a 4v4v4 is great !!
- the maps are not to big and focus on PvP
- Rewards hidden behind a ranking is also great !!

The Neutral:
- I am still very unsure if the game modes will once again favor tanks that just stack and become unkillable on objectives. The team around Brain Wheeler needs to make sure this doesn’t happen..

The Bad:
- you cant mix up group and solo queue !!, a well setup 4 man will role over any solo queue group. Having fights that are doomed to loose is not fun.
- The ranking/MMR system is the worst part of this whole thing. Any MMR system should be designed in a way that it represents skill level and NOT only how much you play. The system of having your medals tied to your MMR is bad—not only does it reward playing a lot more than playing well, but it is also very easy to abuse (see spoiler).
If your goal is to make something 'tryhard competitive,' you need to implement an MMR system that is tied to skill, where you lose and gain points based on being good or bad.

If I play 10 hours every day but I’m not performing well, I should never be able to reach rank 1.
If I don’t play well, I should lose my MMR/rank!

Since I know how poorly community feedback works every time there is a PTS cycle, I don’t have high expectations. The only thing we can hope for is that there’s enough good and constructive feedback in the forum.
I hope the community managers are able to extract the good information out of all the bla bla in the Forum and pass it to Brain's team.

Spoiler

For example, you can play as a Nightblade healer with a high crit burst heal from stealth, and your friend runs a high HP build. Every time his HP drops low, you give them that insane critical heal and earn a medal every time.

This update to BGs is not for us sweaties. The vast majority of us are going to keep playing BGs until they turn the servers off, no matter what.

The changes they have made to pvp in recent years also have very little to do with you and me and the rest of us.

The changes have been made to lessen the steep learning curve of pvp so people can at least feel competitive when they are carried by broken sets/skills/mechanics with or without those being carried realizing they aren't actually good enough to compete.

They are trying to attract new players for pvp and they can't do that if those new players are melted every time they step off the wall into a BG.

This is just a continuation of that theme.

To be completely honest I think ZOS would prefer us sweaties not be there at all.

LittlePinkDot

Jierdanit wrote: »

Basically agree with everything here.

Mixing premades and solo players is a horrible idea that's just going to lead to solo players not playing at all after they got farmed a few times.

And the MMR systems needs to focus more on performance in each BG than how much you play.

In general it's definitely a step in the right direction though.

Is it per character or per account?

Einstein_

Is it per character or per account?

per character.

This update to BGs is not for us sweaties. The vast majority of us are going to keep playing BGs until they turn the servers off, no matter what.

The changes they have made to pvp in recent years also have very little to do with you and me and the rest of us.

The changes have been made to lessen the steep learning curve of pvp so people can at least feel competitive when they are carried by broken sets/skills/mechanics with or without those being carried realizing they aren't actually good enough to compete.

They are trying to attract new players for pvp and they can't do that if those new players are melted every time they step off the wall into a BG.

This is just a continuation of that theme.

To be completely honest I think ZOS would prefer us sweaties not be there at all.

Even tho i think you have some valid points, that doesn't change my suggestions about things they should change with the new BGs.

I played MMOS for some time now and observed the same thing always.The "tryhard" players are only 1% of the pop, but every time some update pushes this 1% away from a game the game dies as well (PVE or PVP).

Thumbless_Bot

I am 100% with you!

NuarBlack

Einstein_ wrote: »

Even tho i think you have some valid points, that doesn't change my suggestions about things they should change with the new BGs.

I played MMOS for some time now and observed the same thing always.The "tryhard" players are only 1% of the pop, but every time some update pushes this 1% away from a game the game dies as well (PVE or PVP).

Wait what games? Cause I've quite literally seen the opposite every time. Wow? Nope it's a dying game cause it catered to the 1%. Destiny 2? Nope trials of Osiris is just populated by cheaters, exploiters, carries, and account recoveries.

You definitely want to keep your most enthusiastic players engaged because they evangelize the game but if they are so myopically selfish they will kill the game way faster.

StaticWave

NuarBlack wrote: »

If you only make the system with Try hards in mind then that is all you will have playing, so like 0.001% of the population and it will be a dead game mode.

As far as MMR goes? Eliminate it completely. It never works and it only encourages cheating, smurfing and other poor behavior. An MMO is never going to be like a Moba.

You want bad players to play forever. That's what keeps the game mode populated. So they should be encouraged to do so. They should get incremental progress just for showing up. Just don't create a dumb MMR system and they are fine. Create ways for try hards to advance faster, sure. Maybe even a few pinnacle achievements with cosmetic rewards but you will only kill the mode with any sort of MMR system.

Why would it encourage anything? People who are in the same skill bracket only match with the same ppl. Casuals entering competitive 4v4 will only match with other casuals eventually. If population is low you may occasionally get casuals mixed up with try hards, which is literally what the current BG system is doing lol. Trust, if there was an actual MMR system people will be inclined to come back to the game.

StaticWave

In other PvP games, the queue is separated into casual and competitive. ZOS is on the right track with 4v4 competitive matchmaking and 8v8 casual matchmaking, but they NEED to follow through with an actual MMR system.

The current system is only half of the equation because players don’t lose medals if they lose a match. To have a competitive 4v4, players MUST lose medals for a loss and gain medals for a win.


For example, the system could be designed like this:

If team A wins, players in team A gains X amount of medals, and the best performing one (healing or damage relative to teammates) will get a bonus amount. If team A loses, everyone loses X amount of medals. Fighting opponents with less medals than yours will give you less medals for a win, and if you lose against that team you will lose more, etc.

That is what other PvP games have for their system. ZOS could use this template and add some flavor to make it unique. But please, allow players to lose medals to have an actual and meaningful ranked leaderboard.

gariondavey

StaticWave wrote: »

In other PvP games, the queue is separated into casual and competitive. ZOS is on the right track with 4v4 competitive matchmaking and 8v8 casual matchmaking, but they NEED to follow through with an actual MMR system.

The current system is only half of the equation because players don’t lose medals if they lose a match. To have a competitive 4v4, players MUST lose medals for a loss and gain medals for a win.


For example, the system could be designed like this:

If team A wins, players in team A gains X amount of medals, and the best performing one (healing or damage relative to teammates) will get a bonus amount. If team A loses, everyone loses X amount of medals. Fighting opponents with less medals than yours will give you less medals for a win, and if you lose against that team you will lose more, etc.

That is what other PvP games have for their system. ZOS could use this template and add some flavor to make it unique. But please, allow players to lose medals to have an actual and meaningful ranked leaderboard.

Yeah in ranked your score should go up with wins and down with losses like in other games.
If medals are part of your score going up, they should only be part of the increase.
Medal system should also be reworked because it is not accurate for necros, arcanist shielders, healers.

CameraBeardThePirate

gariondavey wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

In other PvP games, the queue is separated into casual and competitive. ZOS is on the right track with 4v4 competitive matchmaking and 8v8 casual matchmaking, but they NEED to follow through with an actual MMR system.

The current system is only half of the equation because players don’t lose medals if they lose a match. To have a competitive 4v4, players MUST lose medals for a loss and gain medals for a win.


For example, the system could be designed like this:

If team A wins, players in team A gains X amount of medals, and the best performing one (healing or damage relative to teammates) will get a bonus amount. If team A loses, everyone loses X amount of medals. Fighting opponents with less medals than yours will give you less medals for a win, and if you lose against that team you will lose more, etc.

That is what other PvP games have for their system. ZOS could use this template and add some flavor to make it unique. But please, allow players to lose medals to have an actual and meaningful ranked leaderboard.

Yeah in ranked your score should go up with wins and down with losses like in other games.
If medals are part of your score going up, they should only be part of the increase.
Medal system should also be reworked because it is not accurate for necros, arcanist shielders, healers.

Medals shouldn't be part of it at all. Theyre too easy to game.

If they want to make medals a part of the mmr, they need to completely overhaul the system to allow it to benefit all classes and builds (necros and shielders).

KKolly

NuarBlack wrote: »

Einstein_ wrote: »

Even tho i think you have some valid points, that doesn't change my suggestions about things they should change with the new BGs.

I played MMOS for some time now and observed the same thing always.The "tryhard" players are only 1% of the pop, but every time some update pushes this 1% away from a game the game dies as well (PVE or PVP).

Wait what games? Cause I've quite literally seen the opposite every time. Wow? Nope it's a dying game cause it catered to the 1%. Destiny 2? Nope trials of Osiris is just populated by cheaters, exploiters, carries, and account recoveries.

You definitely want to keep your most enthusiastic players engaged because they evangelize the game but if they are so myopically selfish they will kill the game way faster.

If this were the case PvE would be dead. Not only are quirky rewards locked behind "Tryhard" gameplay, like Vet Achievements, but some of the coolest mounts in the game are locked behind "Tryhard" gameplay.

I'm a Cyro-only PvPer but I can't stress enough that if they want this to last more than the first-month honeymoon they NEED skill-based MMR. This isn't a 300 person instance like Cyro where the law of averages takes over. Its 8-16 players total in any given instance.

NuarBlack

KKolly wrote: »

NuarBlack wrote: »

Einstein_ wrote: »

Even tho i think you have some valid points, that doesn't change my suggestions about things they should change with the new BGs.

I played MMOS for some time now and observed the same thing always.The "tryhard" players are only 1% of the pop, but every time some update pushes this 1% away from a game the game dies as well (PVE or PVP).

Wait what games? Cause I've quite literally seen the opposite every time. Wow? Nope it's a dying game cause it catered to the 1%. Destiny 2? Nope trials of Osiris is just populated by cheaters, exploiters, carries, and account recoveries.

You definitely want to keep your most enthusiastic players engaged because they evangelize the game but if they are so myopically selfish they will kill the game way faster.

If this were the case PvE would be dead. Not only are quirky rewards locked behind "Tryhard" gameplay, like Vet Achievements, but some of the coolest mounts in the game are locked behind "Tryhard" gameplay.

I'm a Cyro-only PvPer but I can't stress enough that if they want this to last more than the first-month honeymoon they NEED skill-based MMR. This isn't a 300 person instance like Cyro where the law of averages takes over. Its 8-16 players total in any given instance.

There is a major difference between aspirational content that is challenging and catering to the 1%. Normal trials are a cake walk still. They have made it to where there isn't any gear you can't get in normal modes as perfected gear is marginally better at best. They made 1 bar builds viable and an entire class, the arcanist, that is easy mode. PVE is far from catering to the 1%.

ForumSavant

Time played/medal score > performance is an illogical system.