Add a Ramping cost to shadowy disguise

Aurielle

fred4 wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

At any rate, I was responding to @Aurielle when proposing that. He has been explaining - see his post and video earlier in this thread - how the combination of Rally and Siphoning Attacks might be OP. It allows you to regain resources in cloak, with Siphoning Attacks, while healing away the health cost with Rally. In other words you might use this method to sustain Cloak indefinitely without having to invest in magicka sustain. Invest everything into attack, but have your cake and eat it with this skill combination. At least that's the theory.

Please read post number 57 again and stop putting words in my mouth. The point of that video was not to claim that Rally/Siphoning Attacks was OP. The point of that video was not to demonstrate cloak spam abuse. And the point of that video was certainly not to show good, hardcore combat — because for the most part, that doesn’t really happen in IC, unless you’re deliberately seeking 1vX fights like React.

The point of that video was, once again, to demonstrate to you personally that you do not need to invest heavily into magicka sustain to achieve your playstyle of killing IC mobs, farming Tel Var, and engaging in occasional PVP while being almost constantly invisible.

Fair enough. But it's a moot point if we had ramping Cloak cost. Neither this, nor my current build would work.

It really isn't a moot point. You could still very easily sustain your playstyle if a ramping magicka cost to cloak was added. Your playstyle ultimately boils down to running around IC at high velocity while invisible in order to farm Tel Var, do IC quests, and do a bit of PVP here and there. Which is definitely fun, no doubt! For some reason, though, you seem to think that you need to cloak constantly while not in combat to achieve that, even when there are no other players around. You've scoffed at combining cloak and crouch in this thread previously, but it's the most sensible thing to do for sustain when you're not in active combat. Cloak spam is only truly necessary in defensive situations when you know you can't win a fight, or when you're brawling aggressively and want to maintain 100% uptime on strong passives that trigger from stealth. And in those situations, cloak should absolutely be brought in line with skills like streak.

I know it feels like people are attacking your playstyle, but you really can't expect cloak to be balanced around your off-meta build. Your playstyle isn't the problem, as has already been pointed out -- it's guys and gals spamming cloak in short bursts to completely reset fights with no sustain repercussions, or brawl with it to constantly proc damage from stealth passives. My video was intended to help you feel like you could continue to enjoy a playstyle you like (and show you how you can achieve it while adding a bit more damage, to boot!), even if a ramping magicka cost to cloak was added. EDIT: and like I said before, I didn't realize that the speed element was so important to you, but that can still be achieved easily without needing to invest fully into sustain to the point where there's no more wiggle room to account for a ramping magicka cost on cloak.

fred4

Aurielle wrote: »

...

I am a 9 year veteran of the game. Build-crafting is what I play for. Please refrain from making any further build suggestions.

I have previously explained how true perma-cloaking differs from what you describe via numerous examples. There are many nuances that make perma-cloaking stand apart from mixing cloak and crouch. If you don't value those differences, or you don't understand what they are and how they are important to some, that's OK. However, I would appreciate if you could at least acknowledge that this proposal would destroy a unique and enjoyable playstyle, an arguably harmless playstyle based around utililty.

Aurielle

fred4 wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

...

I am a 9 year veteran of the game. Build-crafting is what I play for. Please refrain from making any further build suggestions.

I have previously explained how true perma-cloaking differs from what you describe via numerous examples. There are many nuances that make perma-cloaking stand apart from mixing cloak and crouch. If you don't value those differences, or you don't understand what they are and how they are important to some, that's OK. However, I would appreciate if you could at least acknowledge that this proposal would destroy a unique and enjoyable playstyle, an arguably harmless playstyle based around utililty.

I've been here since open beta in 2014, and build-crafting is something I enjoy as well. However, I'm also willing to adapt my builds and work around balance changes if and when said changes occur.

So sure, I will indeed acknowledge that your build would suffer a bit if ZOS were to balance cloak by adding ramping magicka costs, and you continued to spam cloak constantly without changing anything about your build. But will you also at least acknowledge that balancing a powerful ability like cloak around your niche build and unconventional way of using cloak is ... uh, maybe not the best way to balance such a powerful ability?

LPapirius

Range proc burst NB's one shotting people from stealth is the single most unfair, unbalanced and disheartening realities of ESO PvP these days. NB's are grossly OP out of balance now days. The only thing that comes anywhere near as grossly out of balance is the ball group RoA meta that is also impossible to defend against.

Even Brian Wheeler admitted during this weeks PvP stream that he essentially doesn't PvP anymore, and he's supposed to be the dev who's focused on PvP. So it's fair to assume ZOS doesn't know and doesn't care how crazy out of balance and miserable these two meta's are making Cyrodiil.

System_Data

Aurielle wrote: »

“Bandwagon”? People have been asking for ramping costs to cloak for years. It isn’t some trendy idea that just recently become popular.

Here’s a thread from 2017: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/361212/cloaking-in-pvp/

And 2015: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/224332/cloak-is-ridiculous/ (OP doesn’t ask for ramping costs, but a number of replies do)

And that’s just two of the many, many examples you will be able to find.

Cloak combined with NB’s inherent speed and sustain is, right now, arguably in the best position it has ever been in. It has never been this easy to sustain near permanent invisibility in a PVP environment while still being able to go full damage — especially now that certain skills are no longer bugged, no longer breaking cloak when they shouldn’t.

Have you guys even played other MMOs with PVP and rogue/assassin classes? Rogue-type classes in other games typically can’t even recast stealth in combat, because having that ability is understood by the developers as being significantly overpowered. Stealth in other games is generally only used as an opener, to give the rogue/assassin the element of surprise — but if they fail to kill the player(s), they can’t just escape or reset the fight by spamming invisibility to gain the upper hand again.

We aren’t even asking for cloak to be unusable in combat — something that is common in other games. We’re simply asking for a ramping cost to bring cloak in line with other OP escape tools that also have ramping costs. Is that really so much to ask?

Cloak is only OP in PVP environments. Target the problem ability, not the other skills that enhance the effectiveness of the problem ability. Asking for nerfs to sustain or healing or whatever so that you can continue to eat your tasty invisibility cake in PVP environments merely hurts PVE NBs.

Just because people suggest things doesn't mean that they are good suggestions.

So cloak isn't the solely the issue according to what you wrote. Why have you not ask for a nerf to their sustain and speed then? I sure don't think that they need to have Minor Expedition on Concealed Weapons or that Siphoning Strike be a better Dark Exchange.

When playing NB, i have been revealed by direct aoe attacks, and when playing against NBs i have had no trouble doing the same. The loss of the bugged dots has been minimal and now people can't clutch on that and need to dedicate a skill slot or pot to deal with NBs.

I have indeed played other MMOs with PVP and the thing is they don't have ramping costs on stealth abilities. However, they do have cooldowns while ESO doesn't and so the closest thing to that would be locking Cloak if revealed by direct aoe attacks for 2 seconds. I wouldn't be opposed to that if it was suggested. You have precedent in ESO with Expert Hunter and Magelight so that could work.

Asking for NB nerfs is fine, but comparing cloak to other escape tools like streak is invalid. I think you have it the other way around. NB's kit, at the moment, is strong on it own. Cloak is the icing on top. Brawler NBs are strong because of their passives, they don't even use cloak to escape but to activate those passives. Seems rather clear that those passives should be looked at. Vampire passives should not function and overlapped with NBs. Ideally, Strike from the Shadows should be adjusted to only work on other vampire abilities instead. Ramping costs on cloak won't really affect the really good players, but it will impact the casual ones.

Joy_Division

System_Data wrote: »

Your whole post can be summed up as "I know that sticking ramping cost won't do much and despite the changes that other players have proposed, I still want ramping cost on cloak.". Are you serious? You mentioned in your post about NB's burst heal, about NB's damage and yet the only thing that springs up is "ramping cost on cloak" instead of asking for nerfs in other areas of NB's kit that would still allow NB's to be viable.

Yes, I said adding a cost to cloak would probably not do much to nigtblades who do not excessively rely on Cloak for defense. Because it wouldn't . Not exactly earthshattering. And I also said that was a good thing. I'm not out to just nerf a class.

Yes, I did mention a NB burst heal and their high damage. Those abilities are part of their kit. The context is relevant to the argument. The OP did not suggest adjusting them. Neither did the poster I was responding too. I am not asking for other nerfs to Nightblades because that's not what the thread is about.

You do realize that someone able to keep cloak up indefinitely just mean that they got enough regen to do so. Such regen would allow anyone else to spam whatever skills they want indefinitely as well, so how is that really a problem?

Yes, I am well aware that it costs resources to keep up cloak indefinitely. Every class must invest resources to use all of their skills indefinitely. This is not a unique situation to Nightblades. I am also aware that keeping up resource management at this point in ESO is much easier than it has been for the vast majority of the game with sets like Wretched Vitality. No skill in the game has a cooldown. The issue is not spamming skills. That is not the problem and indeed that is the design of ESO. The issue is whether or not a skill is too powerful relative to what other classes can do when it is spammed.

I remember a certain saying that goes "Play as you want". If someone doesn't want to engage with other players, isn't that their choice? How is that wrong in any way? People who spend money is none of my business nor should it be. You can't force people to play how you want.

The argument here is that it is not "wrong" to play as you want. If something is deemed overly powerful or too strong, the defense to keep it should not be "It's not right the devs are forcing me to play another way." Of course people are going to want to play overly powerful builds. Sorcerers had 20 second shields. Was deemed too powerful. It was changed. Wardens really enjoyed their playstyle when Deep Fissure stunned enemies. Of course they would. DKs really enjoyed playing with Reflective Scales. Ultimately the devs are the arbiters whether or not player's enjoyment of certain builds and abilities are overly detrimental to the competitive environment. These forums exist for customers to provide feedback. That's all it is. It's feedback about a specific ability being too powerful. It's not about forcing people to play ways they do not want to.

Not only is there a plethora of ways to counter cloak, you also ask for a ramping cost added too. Should ZOS remove all the other ways to counter cloak if it gets ramping cost? There's no other skill in the game that has this many dedicated counters for it.

Yes, after ten years of experience we know there are options. Most of them are not effective or practical, hence why threads such as the OP continue to come up and a contributing factor to why NBs are consistent top performers in PvP. The only consistent counter to Cloak has always been detect potions.

With regard to the actual abilities in the game, by far the most consistent anti-cloak performer I my estimation is Haunting Curse. I don;t think there is a close second. The ability will explode twice and I'll know exactly where they are and I (and others) can zero in where the invisible Nightblade is and at least have a realistic shot in finishing them off. I would admit that when I am on a sorcerer plyer, I don;t see Cloak as a big deal. I think that demonstrates that if a class on its own was powerful (like sorcerer is now), then the PvP community would not complain much about cloak. But that has not been and is not the case.

If ZOS were to make changes that made it so Cloak was not nearly as potent or could not be cast as often, then yes, I think it would be fair for ZOS to remove many of the dedicated counter in the game. I would support that.

There's ramping cost on dodge, mist form and streak. They all displace you. How does cloak displace you? It doesn't.

I'm not sure what you mean by "displace." The definition of the word is "cause (something) to move from its proper or usual place." Neither dodge, mist form, or streak do that. So I am not sure the distinction you are trying to make between those three mechanics and Cloak.

For me, the difference between those three and Cloak is this: with dodge, streak, and mist, while I am annoyed my opponent is using fast movement skills that either will make some of my abilities miss, do much reduced damage, or stun me, I know exactly where they will wind up, thus can immediately continue press the attack. Dodge won't even help them with things like Radiant Destruction. Don''t care. It has a ramping cost. It's fine. The knowledge of where an enemy is should not be understated; it why Haunting Curse is so darn effective.

Oh no, my head will be cleaved off, nope just kidding, i can burst heal or shield myself. Where are the ramping costs on those type of skills? I compare cloak to burst heal and shielding abilities because they provide momentary relief, you still have to manually move around and juke your opponents.

Again, there are so many ways to nerf NBs other than adding ramping cost on cloak. People need to stop hopping on the ramping cost bandwagon.

Yes, you can try to burst heal or shield yourself if your head is about to get cleaved off. As a Templar, my healing might not be enough to save me. A Sorcerer's shield might not be strong enough to prevent death (admittedly, now not very often but that's another thread). Those skills are not powerful enough to merit a ramping cost. A Nightblade that successfully enters Cloak will force that attack to miss. Huge difference.

Granted, a detect pot can defeat this tactic. But this goes back to the ten year track record. If Templars have avoided sure death as often as Nightblades have, then there would be many threads advocating for a ramping cost on breath of life. Thre are only two classes that can consistently avoid these near death scenarios, and it is not a coincidence that those two have historically been considered consistent high tier performers.

This does not even get into that the Nightblade does not have to cloak in this scenario (and probably should not) because Shade is strong option here. It takes something like the ultimate Undo to mimic this sort of power.

My position is the same as expressed by an earlier poster in this thread who I will quote for clarity:

React wrote: »

Not being able to track a target due to them being invisible is a lot more impactful than you're giving it credit. It means I don't know which direction I should be moving or turning my camera in, I can't be sure which ability I should be casting, it affects my positioning in a way that nothing else in the game does, it affects my perception of a fight as I can't be sure how many players I'm actually fighting.

Cloak is undoubtedly one of the strongest abilities in the game, and has been for a while, but even more so now with the added major savagery on both bars. A ramping cost would hardly impact the ability in a way that it would make you drop it from your bar, but would help alleviate the frustration of fighting people (or groups of people) who rely on spamming it to be practically invincible in many scenarios.

NB main here, btw.

Wuuffyy

Someone had mentioned that this wouldn't be enough, I agree. Cloak is either too powerful or too weak circumstance depending regardless. I have a personal suggestion of dissallowing proc sets to 'proc' for 2 seconds in and after leaving stealth.

Also, the bow SHOULD NOT be buildable on ads outside of a fight AND SHOULD have a limited duration the stacks remain (free stack building still, maximum uptime of stacks is 60 seconds)

Lumsdenml

Joy_Division wrote: »

Granted, a detect pot can defeat this tactic. But this goes back to the ten year track record. If Templars have avoided sure death as often as Nightblades have, then there would be many threads advocating for a ramping cost on breath of life. Thre are only two classes that can consistently avoid these near death scenarios, and it is not a coincidence that those two have historically been considered consistent high tier performers.

This. This right here. The only thing that can stop a Sorc from streaking or templar from healing is a sorc negate. That is a lot smaller skill pool than the fact that ANYONE can use a detect pot and STOP me from cloaking. This is EXACTLY why there is no ramping cost to cloak.

Amottica

CrazyKitty wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

My point is: Even if you nerf cloak to the ground, even if it will be "a meme skill" - people will complain about Cloak & Vamp till it exists. For as long as it is a mechanic in the game - people (some people) will still complain and those "nerf cloak threads" will be up.

Do you see somebody complaining that defensive stance reflect a projectile or even that Spell wall reflect all projectiles? No. The mechanic is there but people do not complain as it was in reflective scales.

That is not the point. After 10 years of game live, it can not possible be about NB skill (namely shadowy disguise) or any other specific skill. It is about the whole idea of invisibility in PvP games. Some people love it, but some people hate it. In ESO, NB & Vamp are such "stealth" classes. In other words - people who complain about invisibility in ESO, would also complain about Spy in TF2 or Loki in Smite or whatever can be invisible in any other PvP game. It is just about personal preferences, opinions and type of personality. Some people simply will always think/say that being invisible has no place in any type of PvP game. Also - notice how no one minds cloak in PvE & how it allows to skip mobs & make grinding faster etc. It is always about PvP.

Hence why I think that for as long as you can actually be invisible in ESO PvP at least some people will complain about it. For as long as there is a possibility to play effectively using stealth in PvP - some people will always, always complain about it.

Cloak is just a scape goat here and I bet if it gets nerfed - Vamp & invisibiity potions will be next to complain about.

Why not just make cloak a scribing skill, as others have suggested in this thread? That way all classes can have access to the "skill".

Because it is an NB skill, there is no reason to start making class skills available to all via scribing because someone takes issue with them or finds them too challenging to deal with. There is already a means for all players to obtain stealth if they so choose.

System_Data

Joy_Division wrote: »

I am serious, but you are not representing my argument fairly.

Yes, I said adding a cost to cloak would probably not do much to nigtblades who do not excessively rely on Cloak for defense. Because it wouldn't . Not exactly earthshattering. And I also said that was a good thing. I'm not out to just nerf a class.

Yes, I did mention a NB burst heal and their high damage. Those abilities are part of their kit. The context is relevant to the argument. The OP did not suggest adjusting them. Neither did the poster I was responding too. I am not asking for other nerfs to Nightblades because that's not what the thread is about.

I understand that you are not trying to severely nerf NB. However from my perspective, a ramping cost on cloak is applying a band-aid to the problem. Cloak is only powerful because it's tied to strong passives like guaranteed critical strike on their next direct damage attack (should remove, maybe an % increase on their next direct attack instead), activating Shadow Barrier passive which grants Major resolve (should be applied to Dark Cloak only) and as well as Vampire's Strike from the Shadows (which should not be working in tandem.).

At some point you have to recognize that some aspects of NB's kit is just too strong. I don't enjoy taking 20k damage from a skill or a hugely inflated Grim Focus proc. Nor do i believe there's any good reason why NB's burst heal needs to be so effective. Skilled NBs won't be affected by ramping costs, but those who may use cloak excessively, often times the lower skilled and casual players will be affected. This would further the skill gap instead of what would be ideal which is raising the skill floor. If more players don't feel so extremely on the lower end and feel like they have a chance, more people would play PVP. As the thread asks for ramping costs on cloak, those who oppose give out different alternatives instead which are nerfs to other aspects of NB's kit because that is a more effective long term solution and will also more effectively affect the higher skilled players.

Joy_Division wrote: »

The argument here is that it is not "wrong" to play as you want. If something is deemed overly powerful or too strong, the defense to keep it should not be "It's not right the devs are forcing me to play another way." Of course people are going to want to play overly powerful builds. Sorcerers had 20 second shields. Was deemed too powerful. It was changed. Wardens really enjoyed their playstyle when Deep Fissure stunned enemies. Of course they would. DKs really enjoyed playing with Reflective Scales. Ultimately the devs are the arbiters whether or not player's enjoyment of certain builds and abilities are overly detrimental to the competitive environment. These forums exist for customers to provide feedback. That's all it is. It's feedback about a specific ability being too powerful. It's not about forcing people to play ways they do not want to.

Personally i wouldn't be oppose to a slight increase in shield duration in general. Deep fissure stun doesn't sound so bad at the moment with Warden's not having an easy to use stun as compared to DKs and Templars straightforward stuns.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Yes, after ten years of experience we know there are options. Most of them are not effective or practical, hence why threads such as the OP continue to come up and a contributing factor to why NBs are consistent top performers in PvP. The only consistent counter to Cloak has always been detect potions.

With regard to the actual abilities in the game, by far the most consistent anti-cloak performer I my estimation is Haunting Curse. I don;t think there is a close second. The ability will explode twice and I'll know exactly where they are and I (and others) can zero in where the invisible Nightblade is and at least have a realistic shot in finishing them off. I would admit that when I am on a sorcerer plyer, I don;t see Cloak as a big deal. I think that demonstrates that if a class on its own was powerful (like sorcerer is now), then the PvP community would not complain much about cloak. But that has not been and is not the case.

I have found success using Arrow Spray to bring out cloaked players even while playing on a Necromancer. NBs can also deal with cloaked players with Drain Power. The problem is most classes do not have a useful ability that also works really well to reveal cloaked players so they often times choose not to slot a dedicated skill against cloak.

Joy_Division wrote: »

If ZOS were to make changes that made it so Cloak was not nearly as potent or could not be cast as often, then yes, I think it would be fair for ZOS to remove many of the dedicated counter in the game. I would support that.

Yes, i believe by decoupling the passives with cloak and locking cloak upon being forcefully reveal would help.

Joy_Division wrote: »

I'm not sure what you mean by "displace." The definition of the word is "cause (something) to move from its proper or usual place." Neither dodge, mist form, or streak do that. So I am not sure the distinction you are trying to make between those three mechanics and Cloak.

I mean from the merriam-webster dictionary: to move physically out of position.
Here are some synonyms that is attributed with displace: move, shift, relocate, reposition.
Even with your definition, streak (cause) moves your character from its usual place, but activating cloak doesn't.

Joy_Division wrote: »

For me, the difference between those three and Cloak is this: with dodge, streak, and mist, while I am annoyed my opponent is using fast movement skills that either will make some of my abilities miss, do much reduced damage, or stun me, I know exactly where they will wind up, thus can immediately continue press the attack. Dodge won't even help them with things like Radiant Destruction. Don''t care. It has a ramping cost. It's fine. The knowledge of where an enemy is should not be understated; it why Haunting Curse is so darn effective.

I understand. It's the fact that cloak makes it harder to predict where the NB will be, but you can still try to predict where they will go though you may not always be right.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Yes, you can try to burst heal or shield yourself if your head is about to get cleaved off. As a Templar, my healing might not be enough to save me. A Sorcerer's shield might not be strong enough to prevent death (admittedly, now not very often but that's another thread). Those skills are not powerful enough to merit a ramping cost. A Nightblade that successfully enters Cloak will force that attack to miss. Huge difference.

One can argue the same for cloak, just because you cloak doesn't mean you are safe. Dots will still be ticking and it would take one direct aoe attack to kill them. I think it's about getting used to being ready to uncloak the NB when they are low health that will help you fight against them.

Amottica

System_Data wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I am serious, but you are not representing my argument fairly.

Yes, I said adding a cost to cloak would probably not do much to nigtblades who do not excessively rely on Cloak for defense. Because it wouldn't . Not exactly earthshattering. And I also said that was a good thing. I'm not out to just nerf a class.

Yes, I did mention a NB burst heal and their high damage. Those abilities are part of their kit. The context is relevant to the argument. The OP did not suggest adjusting them. Neither did the poster I was responding too. I am not asking for other nerfs to Nightblades because that's not what the thread is about.

I understand that you are not trying to severely nerf NB. However from my perspective, a ramping cost on cloak is applying a band-aid to the problem. Cloak is only powerful because it's tied to strong passives like guaranteed critical strike on their next direct damage attack (should remove, maybe an % increase on their next direct attack instead), activating Shadow Barrier passive which grants Major resolve (should be applied to Dark Cloak only) and as well as Vampire's Strike from the Shadows (which should not be working in tandem.).

At some point you have to recognize that some aspects of NB's kit is just too strong. I don't enjoy taking 20k damage from a skill or a hugely inflated Grim Focus proc. Nor do i believe there's any good reason why NB's burst heal needs to be so effective. Skilled NBs won't be affected by ramping costs, but those who may use cloak excessively, often times the lower skilled and casual players will be affected. This would further the skill gap instead of what would be ideal which is raising the skill floor. If more players don't feel so extremely on the lower end and feel like they have a chance, more people would play PVP. As the thread asks for ramping costs on cloak, those who oppose give out different alternatives instead which are nerfs to other aspects of NB's kit because that is a more effective long term solution and will also more effectively affect the higher skilled players.

Joy_Division wrote: »

The argument here is that it is not "wrong" to play as you want. If something is deemed overly powerful or too strong, the defense to keep it should not be "It's not right the devs are forcing me to play another way." Of course people are going to want to play overly powerful builds. Sorcerers had 20 second shields. Was deemed too powerful. It was changed. Wardens really enjoyed their playstyle when Deep Fissure stunned enemies. Of course they would. DKs really enjoyed playing with Reflective Scales. Ultimately the devs are the arbiters whether or not player's enjoyment of certain builds and abilities are overly detrimental to the competitive environment. These forums exist for customers to provide feedback. That's all it is. It's feedback about a specific ability being too powerful. It's not about forcing people to play ways they do not want to.

Personally i wouldn't be oppose to a slight increase in shield duration in general. Deep fissure stun doesn't sound so bad at the moment with Warden's not having an easy to use stun as compared to DKs and Templars straightforward stuns.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Yes, after ten years of experience we know there are options. Most of them are not effective or practical, hence why threads such as the OP continue to come up and a contributing factor to why NBs are consistent top performers in PvP. The only consistent counter to Cloak has always been detect potions.

With regard to the actual abilities in the game, by far the most consistent anti-cloak performer I my estimation is Haunting Curse. I don;t think there is a close second. The ability will explode twice and I'll know exactly where they are and I (and others) can zero in where the invisible Nightblade is and at least have a realistic shot in finishing them off. I would admit that when I am on a sorcerer plyer, I don;t see Cloak as a big deal. I think that demonstrates that if a class on its own was powerful (like sorcerer is now), then the PvP community would not complain much about cloak. But that has not been and is not the case.

I have found success using Arrow Spray to bring out cloaked players even while playing on a Necromancer. NBs can also deal with cloaked players with Drain Power. The problem is most classes do not have a useful ability that also works really well to reveal cloaked players so they often times choose not to slot a dedicated skill against cloak.

Joy_Division wrote: »

If ZOS were to make changes that made it so Cloak was not nearly as potent or could not be cast as often, then yes, I think it would be fair for ZOS to remove many of the dedicated counter in the game. I would support that.

Yes, i believe by decoupling the passives with cloak and locking cloak upon being forcefully reveal would help.

Joy_Division wrote: »

I'm not sure what you mean by "displace." The definition of the word is "cause (something) to move from its proper or usual place." Neither dodge, mist form, or streak do that. So I am not sure the distinction you are trying to make between those three mechanics and Cloak.

I mean from the merriam-webster dictionary: to move physically out of position.
Here are some synonyms that is attributed with displace: move, shift, relocate, reposition.
Even with your definition, streak (cause) moves your character from its usual place, but activating cloak doesn't.

Joy_Division wrote: »

For me, the difference between those three and Cloak is this: with dodge, streak, and mist, while I am annoyed my opponent is using fast movement skills that either will make some of my abilities miss, do much reduced damage, or stun me, I know exactly where they will wind up, thus can immediately continue press the attack. Dodge won't even help them with things like Radiant Destruction. Don''t care. It has a ramping cost. It's fine. The knowledge of where an enemy is should not be understated; it why Haunting Curse is so darn effective.

I understand. It's the fact that cloak makes it harder to predict where the NB will be, but you can still try to predict where they will go though you may not always be right.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Yes, you can try to burst heal or shield yourself if your head is about to get cleaved off. As a Templar, my healing might not be enough to save me. A Sorcerer's shield might not be strong enough to prevent death (admittedly, now not very often but that's another thread). Those skills are not powerful enough to merit a ramping cost. A Nightblade that successfully enters Cloak will force that attack to miss. Huge difference.

One can argue the same for cloak, just because you cloak doesn't mean you are safe. Dots will still be ticking and it would take one direct aoe attack to kill them. I think it's about getting used to being ready to uncloak the NB when they are low health that will help you fight against them.

As for the start of this reply, the OP of these threads tends to complain about how NBs escape their grip, not that some passes benefit in other ways.

As for the last part of the reply, @Joy_Division is making a much stronger argument for changes, noting that the cloak allows the NB to completely miss a deadly attack, whereas the burst heals and shields of other classes do not guarantee such. DoTs are not instant deaths, so they are not comparable to what Joy was saying.

System_Data

Amottica wrote: »

As for the start of this reply, the OP of these threads tends to complain about how NBs escape their grip, not that some passes benefit in other ways.

As for the last part of the reply, @Joy_Division is making a much stronger argument for changes, noting that the cloak allows the NB to completely miss a deadly attack, whereas the burst heals and shields of other classes do not guarantee such. DoTs are not instant deaths, so they are not comparable to what Joy was saying.

The OP of this thread failed to explain how Cloak is the same as Streak. Yeah, they're both defensive tools, but they function differently so why should they get treated the same. Cloak isn't even a movement tool.

It must be my imagination then that i'm killing NBs while they try to cloak away with low health then. It must also not be true that currently Wardens burst heal literally brings them back to full or that currently Sorcs shields are really potent and let's not forget how DKs can just ult back to full. Ok. You know, dots ticking down on an NB with low health might not kill them which i never said dots were instant deaths, but it sure will pressure them to heal thus revealing themselves. I fail to see how ramping costs on cloak will prevent them for negating that deadly attack, because they still will. You know what will prevent them for negating that deadly attack when they cloak? Using a pot or a decloaking ability that locks them from going back to invisibility.

Joy_Division

@System_Data

I found your response fair. I understand where you are coming from. I will edit the previous post as that no longer applies. Everyone has different assessments. Ultimately it is up to the devs.

Take it easy.

reazea

Amottica wrote: »

CrazyKitty wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

My point is: Even if you nerf cloak to the ground, even if it will be "a meme skill" - people will complain about Cloak & Vamp till it exists. For as long as it is a mechanic in the game - people (some people) will still complain and those "nerf cloak threads" will be up.

Do you see somebody complaining that defensive stance reflect a projectile or even that Spell wall reflect all projectiles? No. The mechanic is there but people do not complain as it was in reflective scales.

That is not the point. After 10 years of game live, it can not possible be about NB skill (namely shadowy disguise) or any other specific skill. It is about the whole idea of invisibility in PvP games. Some people love it, but some people hate it. In ESO, NB & Vamp are such "stealth" classes. In other words - people who complain about invisibility in ESO, would also complain about Spy in TF2 or Loki in Smite or whatever can be invisible in any other PvP game. It is just about personal preferences, opinions and type of personality. Some people simply will always think/say that being invisible has no place in any type of PvP game. Also - notice how no one minds cloak in PvE & how it allows to skip mobs & make grinding faster etc. It is always about PvP.

Hence why I think that for as long as you can actually be invisible in ESO PvP at least some people will complain about it. For as long as there is a possibility to play effectively using stealth in PvP - some people will always, always complain about it.

Cloak is just a scape goat here and I bet if it gets nerfed - Vamp & invisibiity potions will be next to complain about.

Why not just make cloak a scribing skill, as others have suggested in this thread? That way all classes can have access to the "skill".

Because it is an NB skill, there is no reason to start making class skills available to all via scribing because someone takes issue with them or finds them too challenging to deal with. There is already a means for all players to obtain stealth if they so choose.

The only way for other classes to be invisible, which is what cloak is, is to use a potion. So it's fair to assume you'd be fine with putting a 45 second cooldown on NB Cloak then, right? Stealth is a different thing than invisibility and the immunities that come with it.

reazea

System_Data wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

As for the start of this reply, the OP of these threads tends to complain about how NBs escape their grip, not that some passes benefit in other ways.

As for the last part of the reply, @Joy_Division is making a much stronger argument for changes, noting that the cloak allows the NB to completely miss a deadly attack, whereas the burst heals and shields of other classes do not guarantee such. DoTs are not instant deaths, so they are not comparable to what Joy was saying.

The OP of this thread failed to explain how Cloak is the same as Streak. Yeah, they're both defensive tools, but they function differently so why should they get treated the same. Cloak isn't even a movement tool.

It must be my imagination then that i'm killing NBs while they try to cloak away with low health then. It must also not be true that currently Wardens burst heal literally brings them back to full or that currently Sorcs shields are really potent and let's not forget how DKs can just ult back to full. Ok. You know, dots ticking down on an NB with low health might not kill them which i never said dots were instant deaths, but it sure will pressure them to heal thus revealing themselves. I fail to see how ramping costs on cloak will prevent them for negating that deadly attack, because they still will. You know what will prevent them for negating that deadly attack when they cloak? Using a pot or a decloaking ability that locks them from going back to invisibility.

NB cloak is primarily an offensive skill, not a defensive skill. And correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't cloak give a movement speed bonus for NB's? So that means it is a movement tool.

These posts always make it clear who is and who isn't NB main.

System_Data

reazea wrote: »

NB cloak is primarily an offensive skill, not a defensive skill. And correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't cloak give a movement speed bonus for NB's? So that means it is a movement tool.

These posts always make it clear who is and who isn't NB main.

I've looked up Shadow Cloak on uesp.net, on eso-skillbook.com and the recent patch notes of update 43. I failed to see it mentioned any movement speed bonus on Shadow Cloak. Would you care to provide a source for your claim?

I came to ESO for Templars and spears. Then reality hits that they aren't that good. At least they have Radiant Destruction, unfortunately i don't really like the skill. I also really like Necromancers. I don't really touch my Nightblade that often to be frank.

People are ultimately asking for NB nerfs and so am i. I just don't agree that ramping cost on cloak will bring out the intended effect of curbing down their effectiveness.

These posts only demonstrate that players have different opinions on their vision for Nightblades.

MindOfTheSwarm

Cloak is a defining skill for NB. Leave it alone. Run detection skills if you are having trouble, alternatively ask your team NB to deal with the enemy NB. Playing an NB that hunts other NB’s is some of the most fun you’ll have in PvP.

Amottica

System_Data wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

As for the start of this reply, the OP of these threads tends to complain about how NBs escape their grip, not that some passes benefit in other ways.

As for the last part of the reply, @Joy_Division is making a much stronger argument for changes, noting that the cloak allows the NB to completely miss a deadly attack, whereas the burst heals and shields of other classes do not guarantee such. DoTs are not instant deaths, so they are not comparable to what Joy was saying.

The OP of this thread failed to explain how Cloak is the same as Streak. Yeah, they're both defensive tools, but they function differently so why should they get treated the same. Cloak isn't even a movement tool.

It must be my imagination then that i'm killing NBs while they try to cloak away with low health then. It must also not be true that currently Wardens burst heal literally brings them back to full or that currently Sorcs shields are really potent and let's not forget how DKs can just ult back to full. Ok. You know, dots ticking down on an NB with low health might not kill them which i never said dots were instant deaths, but it sure will pressure them to heal thus revealing themselves. I fail to see how ramping costs on cloak will prevent them for negating that deadly attack, because they still will. You know what will prevent them for negating that deadly attack when they cloak? Using a pot or a decloaking ability that locks them from going back to invisibility.

They explained exactly what they wanted to explain. Otherwise, they would have edited the OP.

Amottica

reazea wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

CrazyKitty wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

My point is: Even if you nerf cloak to the ground, even if it will be "a meme skill" - people will complain about Cloak & Vamp till it exists. For as long as it is a mechanic in the game - people (some people) will still complain and those "nerf cloak threads" will be up.

Do you see somebody complaining that defensive stance reflect a projectile or even that Spell wall reflect all projectiles? No. The mechanic is there but people do not complain as it was in reflective scales.

That is not the point. After 10 years of game live, it can not possible be about NB skill (namely shadowy disguise) or any other specific skill. It is about the whole idea of invisibility in PvP games. Some people love it, but some people hate it. In ESO, NB & Vamp are such "stealth" classes. In other words - people who complain about invisibility in ESO, would also complain about Spy in TF2 or Loki in Smite or whatever can be invisible in any other PvP game. It is just about personal preferences, opinions and type of personality. Some people simply will always think/say that being invisible has no place in any type of PvP game. Also - notice how no one minds cloak in PvE & how it allows to skip mobs & make grinding faster etc. It is always about PvP.

Hence why I think that for as long as you can actually be invisible in ESO PvP at least some people will complain about it. For as long as there is a possibility to play effectively using stealth in PvP - some people will always, always complain about it.

Cloak is just a scape goat here and I bet if it gets nerfed - Vamp & invisibiity potions will be next to complain about.

Why not just make cloak a scribing skill, as others have suggested in this thread? That way all classes can have access to the "skill".

Because it is an NB skill, there is no reason to start making class skills available to all via scribing because someone takes issue with them or finds them too challenging to deal with. There is already a means for all players to obtain stealth if they so choose.

The only way for other classes to be invisible, which is what cloak is, is to use a potion. So it's fair to assume you'd be fine with putting a 45 second cooldown on NB Cloak then, right? Stealth is a different thing than invisibility and the immunities that come with it.

Not able to answer the question since those two means are not an appropriate comparison, and the assumption is inaccurate. First, an invis potion lasts several times longer than what the shadowy cloak offers at his highest level for the morph. It also leaves out another means to obtain invisibility while in combat.

And the pondering that the question is based on leaving out the numerous counters to cloak that work very well and are used daily to successfully pull NBs out of the state of invisibility. Ofc, nothing in PvP is 100%, and many things take practice to develop the skill to use it well.

Syrusthevirus187

Please remove all roleplay from pvp
Cloak/stealth, ww, vamp etc
Kind regards
Syrus

Ocelot9x

I love that the main argument of people who defend nb is that they are squishy and once you focus them they die.

They are because you build them like that, it's the only class (besides sorc) that can go full damage and still have a chance of surviving.
And while its true that they are easy kill 1v1 its only because they would be an easy kill on every other class. But good luck killing (and not be killed by) a decent Nb who knows how to build.
30-32k health with good resistances
High crit damage
High wd/sd
Best sustain of all classes
High pressure (best spammable)
Highest burst (now you dont even need to activate the bow)
Now pair all of this with a strong class burst heal or the scribing one, permanent expedition and cloack and you'll understand why people complain.

If you die on a nb and its your main class you would have died twice faster on any other.

System_Data

Amottica wrote: »

They explained exactly what they wanted to explain. Otherwise, they would have edited the OP.

I don't know what you're trying to argue for related to the OP of this thread to be honest.

The OP didn't explain anything, they made statements. They asks for ramping costs for Shadowy Disguise, then goes on to talk about NBs burst heal and overall damage that they possess. How are those really related to Shadowy Disguise? If he's talking about burst modifier, i can only assume that he's talking about the first hit from stealth being a critical hit, but that doesn't have anything to do with adding ramping costs on cloak because ramping cost won't stop the first hit from being a critical hit. He wants to change how they get their burst modifier, ok, ramping costs on cloak won't change how they get it.

Then goes on to list streak and other skills that have ramping costs and lumps cloak with them, again, not fully explaining why cloak needs it and how it will help overall nor explains how cloak is similar to streak. He calls for ramping costs because ZOS fixed skills that were previously bugged. Sounds like he got used to using said bugged skills and he doesn't want to try changing his build or improve at fighting against NBs in general. Basically, he made a thread to complain about cloak with no explanations.

So for what purpose are you arguing for the OP for? Or are you just making a statement that the OP made this thread to complain?

Aggrovious

AvidNecro wrote: »

I said what I said. Nightblades arguably have one of the strongest burst heals in the game, and with the amount of damage they possess in their toolkit, there needs to be a change to how their get away tool/ Burst modifier works. Sorc's have ramping cost to streak, vamps have ramping cost to mist form, dodge roll has it... Cloak NEEDS it. Especially now the cloak is apparently "fixed" and certain mechanics will not remove the player from stealth, this should be even more weight for the proposed change.

I don't think you have ever played a NB before. There is so much stealth detection in this game that coming in contact with a group is suicide (which are very common in cyro). Sorcerer can streak away and ESCAPE. A nightblade stealth detected is a dead nightblade.

SaffronCitrusflower

reazea wrote: »

System_Data wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

As for the start of this reply, the OP of these threads tends to complain about how NBs escape their grip, not that some passes benefit in other ways.

As for the last part of the reply, @Joy_Division is making a much stronger argument for changes, noting that the cloak allows the NB to completely miss a deadly attack, whereas the burst heals and shields of other classes do not guarantee such. DoTs are not instant deaths, so they are not comparable to what Joy was saying.

The OP of this thread failed to explain how Cloak is the same as Streak. Yeah, they're both defensive tools, but they function differently so why should they get treated the same. Cloak isn't even a movement tool.

It must be my imagination then that i'm killing NBs while they try to cloak away with low health then. It must also not be true that currently Wardens burst heal literally brings them back to full or that currently Sorcs shields are really potent and let's not forget how DKs can just ult back to full. Ok. You know, dots ticking down on an NB with low health might not kill them which i never said dots were instant deaths, but it sure will pressure them to heal thus revealing themselves. I fail to see how ramping costs on cloak will prevent them for negating that deadly attack, because they still will. You know what will prevent them for negating that deadly attack when they cloak? Using a pot or a decloaking ability that locks them from going back to invisibility.

NB cloak is primarily an offensive skill, not a defensive skill. And correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't cloak give a movement speed bonus for NB's? So that means it is a movement tool.

These posts always make it clear who is and who isn't NB main.

I'm pretty sure one of the NB passives used to increase speed when stealthed, but that is not the case now if it ever was.

Amottica

System_Data wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

They explained exactly what they wanted to explain. Otherwise, they would have edited the OP.

I don't know what you're trying to argue for related to the OP of this thread to be honest.

The OP didn't explain anything, they made statements. They asks for ramping costs for Shadowy Disguise, then goes on to talk about NBs burst heal and overall damage that they possess. How are those really related to Shadowy Disguise? If he's talking about burst modifier, i can only assume that he's talking about the first hit from stealth being a critical hit, but that doesn't have anything to do with adding ramping costs on cloak because ramping cost won't stop the first hit from being a critical hit. He wants to change how they get their burst modifier, ok, ramping costs on cloak won't change how they get it.

Then goes on to list streak and other skills that have ramping costs and lumps cloak with them, again, not fully explaining why cloak needs it and how it will help overall nor explains how cloak is similar to streak. He calls for ramping costs because ZOS fixed skills that were previously bugged. Sounds like he got used to using said bugged skills and he doesn't want to try changing his build or improve at fighting against NBs in general. Basically, he made a thread to complain about cloak with no explanations.

So for what purpose are you arguing for the OP for? Or are you just making a statement that the OP made this thread to complain?

Not arguing anything. I am just pointing things out, such as my recent reply noting that the OP did not seem to care when it was stated they did not include something.

Besides, comparing streak to cloak is not a valid comparison as they have very different mechanics. Not to forget that cloak has numerous counters, both hard and soft, that work well when skillfully executed. These counters are proven to work well every day.

Tommy_The_Gun

Check PTS notes. ZOS went other direction. Cloak will be a toggle that drains magicka over time, but disables mag recovery. Can't say if it is a big or small nerf. I guess it It all depends on the cost per 2 seconds vs casting the skill manually every 2.9 seconds. Too early to say, PTS is still offline.

React

Looks like you guys should have just accepted the ramping cost reccomendation

Aggrovious

React wrote: »

Looks like you guys should have just accepted the ramping cost reccomendation

should have never been a suggestion at all

monkidb16_ESO

So now using cloak offensively is cheaper, but using it defensively is more expensive?

I think they managed to *** off everyone with this change.

React

Aggrovious wrote: »

React wrote: »

Looks like you guys should have just accepted the ramping cost reccomendation

should have never been a suggestion at all

monkidb16_ESO wrote: »

So now using cloak offensively is cheaper, but using it defensively is more expensive?

I think they managed to *** off everyone with this change.

Seems like a good change. It should be much harder to perma spam invis cloak, or to be invis more often than not. Exactly what was needed. I think a ramping cost would have sufficed, but this change seems to more aggressively target the behavior I described, which is fine by me.