Add a Ramping cost to shadowy disguise

AvidNecro

I said what I said. Nightblades arguably have one of the strongest burst heals in the game, and with the amount of damage they possess in their toolkit, there needs to be a change to how their get away tool/ Burst modifier works. Sorc's have ramping cost to streak, vamps have ramping cost to mist form, dodge roll has it... Cloak NEEDS it. Especially now the cloak is apparently "fixed" and certain mechanics will not remove the player from stealth, this should be even more weight for the proposed change.

React

Yeah, this change has been a LONG time coming. They really need to add ramping cost to cloak.

LPapirius

The duration of cloak should be reduced as well as adding the ramping cost.

LittlePinkDot

If you get ganked by Nightblades, you're not tanky enough.
Reveal them and they're not that hard to kill normally.

Vaqual

Now that the worst offenders in terms of breaking stealth have in fact been adressed it something that could be considered again.
For the sake of maintaining the PvE experience for new players who specifically are looking for the invisibility aspect I would propose two clauses to the ramping cost:

1) While battlespirit is active
2) While in combat

It should still be possible for nightblades to use cloak to position themselves advantagously while out of combat, without leaning too heavily into mag and mag sustain. Keeping players stuck in combat is something the game does well, so it shouldn't easily be possible to violate that condition. The battlespirit condition shouldn't be a problem, as the ability is not problematic in PvE.

Mechanistically it could be realized by stacking a buff that expires immediately while out of combat, as the old bow proc stacks did.

monkidb16_ESO

This has been a talking point for years and as always serves only as a litmus test for terrible ideas.

All the other examples have instant tactical advantages Sorc/Vamp/Bow give you an instant positional advantage that can't be undone by just hitting the target. Dodge/Vamp give an instant minor positional advantage with a major mitigation advantage, where you cant be hit by a lot of abilities for a short frame.

Cloak on the other hand gives you a 3 second frame to potentially gain a positional advantage as well as an information advantage. Contrary to the other examples this can be instantly negated by Potion/AoE/Hunter/Magelight. A ramping cost would only make sense if Cloak could not be negated by such means.

Furthermore there is the issue with the implementation of such a penalty. How long should the ramping window last?
Anything under 3 seconds is meaningless and will only further punish newer NBs who can't cast it in a correct rhythm, a higher window would go counter to your point asking for parity between these abilities.

A suggestion that would be much more reasonable would be to disable Cloak for a few seconds after striking from stealth and/or to reveal the NB on preparing any attack while cloaked.

Also that myth of "strongest burst heal" is still going strong I see, let me counter with this list of abilities that heal more than Healthy Offering:

Dragon Knight:
Coagulating Blood under 90% health

Sorcerer:
Twilight Matriarch Heal
Vibrant Shroud with Blood Magic passive.

Templar:
Rushed Ceremony & morphs

Warden:
Polar Wind above 29k max health

Necromancer:
Render Flesh & morphs

Arcanist:
Runemend & morphs

Scribing:
Healing Soul

React

monkidb16_ESO wrote: »

This has been a talking point for years and as always serves only as a litmus test for terrible ideas.

All the other examples have instant tactical advantages Sorc/Vamp/Bow give you an instant positional advantage that can't be undone by just hitting the target. Dodge/Vamp give an instant minor positional advantage with a major mitigation advantage, where you cant be hit by a lot of abilities for a short frame.

Cloak on the other hand gives you a 3 second frame to potentially gain a positional advantage as well as an information advantage. Contrary to the other examples this can be instantly negated by Potion/AoE/Hunter/Magelight. A ramping cost would only make sense if Cloak could not be negated by such means.

Furthermore there is the issue with the implementation of such a penalty. How long should the ramping window last?
Anything under 3 seconds is meaningless and will only further punish newer NBs who can't cast it in a correct rhythm, a higher window would go counter to your point asking for parity between these abilities.

A suggestion that would be much more reasonable would be to disable Cloak for a few seconds after striking from stealth and/or to reveal the NB on preparing any attack while cloaked.

Also that myth of "strongest burst heal" is still going strong I see, let me counter with this list of abilities that heal more than Healthy Offering:

Dragon Knight:
Coagulating Blood under 90% health

Sorcerer:
Twilight Matriarch Heal
Vibrant Shroud with Blood Magic passive.

Templar:
Rushed Ceremony & morphs

Warden:
Polar Wind above 29k max health

Necromancer:
Render Flesh & morphs

Arcanist:
Runemend & morphs

Scribing:
Healing Soul

Not being able to track a target due to them being invisible is a lot more impactful than you're giving it credit. It means I don't know which direction I should be moving or turning my camera in, I can't be sure which ability I should be casting, it affects my positioning in a way that nothing else in the game does, it affects my perception of a fight as I can't be sure how many players I'm actually fighting.

Cloak is undoubtedly one of the strongest abilities in the game, and has been for a while, but even more so now with the added major savagery on both bars. A ramping cost would hardly impact the ability in a way that it would make you drop it from your bar, but would help alleviate the frustration of fighting people (or groups of people) who rely on spamming it to be practically invincible in many scenarios.

NB main here, btw.

Oblivion_Protocol

A ramping cost wouldn’t do anything, though. Streak has a ramping cost, and Sorcs still move across the map at a thousand miles an hour. Dodge rolling has a ramping cost, but people still roll all over the place at will. A ramping cost just means your opponent gets away from you with less magicka than they would’ve had before the change.

The thing is that Nightblades have some of the best sustain in the game. What good is draining their magicka when they can get it back in seconds? With some minor adjustments, they can boost their sustain while maintaining enough damage to burst down targets almost instantly.

Also, if someone can’t get away from you after two or three casts of cloak, they’re not good enough of a NB for Cloak to be a problem.

MidniteOwl1913

This comes up over and over again. If zos was going to do something it would have.

I too main a NB, a PVE NB. I love the class and for PVE it's fine where it is. It's already not the easiest class to play.

If a class could be adjusted for PVP without affecting PVE I wouldn't care about this at all, but that's not going to happen.

Turtle_Bot

As someone who has been playing more and more NB in PvP lately, shadowy disguise really does need a ramping cost, now more than ever.

1. All the "counters" such as ele sus, entropy, etc have all been fixed (something NB mains said would need to happen before considering a ramping cost on cloak).
2. NB has 1 of the best burst heals in the game (offering is absolutely insane for a burst heal, with the same scaling as HtD, but access to significantly more modifiers (especially crit modifiers) and also at an ~25% cheaper cost (the health cost is irrelevant).
3. MagNB has permanent minor expedition now, where the speed is no longer dependent on being in stealth (this is such an insanely powerful and underrated tool in NBs kit).
4. NB has an insane amount of defensive tools at its disposal, meaning it really does not need to rely exclusively on invis anymore.

This adjustment to shadowy disguise should absolutely be for PvP specifically, so I would like to see it tied to battle spirit being active and being in combat as was suggested above by @Vaqual this way NB can still get in to gank a target, but should not be able to escape so freely as they currently can with SD.

As a consolation to PvE NB, maybe ZOS could add a passive buff to cloak when battle spirit is not active where it considers all abilities as being cast from stealth (thus proccing things like concealed bonus damage, vampire strike from shadows passive and the other secondary effects NB gets when attacking targets from stealth) as well as considering targets as being flanked all the time. This buff being limited to when battle spirit is not active allows PvE NB DD to rise up closer to the other classes in PvE without affecting PvP.

Shadowy disguise could look like the following:

• Shadowy Disguise
  • Cloak yourself in shadow to become invisible for 3 seconds. If Battle Spirit is active, while in combat, the cost of this ability is increased by 33% if recast within 3 seconds.
    
    Your next Direct Damage attack cast within 3 seconds will always be a Critical Strike.
    
    While Slotted on either bar, you gain Major Prophecy and Major Savagery, increasing your Spell and Weapon Critical Rating by 2629, also, if Battle Spirit is not active, your attacks are considered as being cast from stealth and targets are always considered as being flanked.
  Comments:
  Note: that the effects of being considered as cast from stealth and enemies always considered as being flanked that are granted when battle spirit is not active, do not consider the attacks as being cast while under the effect of shadowy disguise, but are considered being cast from crouch. I.e. these bonuses will proc things like strike from shadows vampire passive and concealed will gets its bonus 10% damage done, but there will not be a guaranteed critical strike, unless cloak is activated.
  
  The target considered as always being flanked (in PvE) would allow NB to slot backstabber over fighting finesse for 2% higher crit damage, as well as guarantee things like the master assassin passive to always be active, basically have a flat 3k pen in PvE. It also guarantees off balance from surprise attack allowing more consistent use of the 10% bonus damage from the exploiter CP.
  
  One final thing, this allows almost any ability to almost guarantee a stun on non-boss enemies (mostly helpful against the adds that don't get pulled by the tank) since they will be considered as cast from stealth, thus proccing the ruffian passive on DW for 15% bonus damage to stunned targets.

System_Data

No
Get an aoe ability, use skills that reveals them or pots. Maybe ask for a nerf to their burst, or take a portion of their merciless proc and convert it into a 4 second dot or something.
What with this hard on for ramping cost on abilities, next you'll see ramping cost on burst heals cause that's overpowered as well.

Amottica

We are already able to reduce the length of the cloak. I often do it when I am running solo. It is part of the intentional design of the game.

fred4

React wrote: »

Not being able to track a target due to them being invisible is a lot more impactful than you're giving it credit. It means I don't know which direction I should be moving or turning my camera in.

Only if you're trying to re-detect a nightblade after they have successfully cloaked. That is not the way to counter nightblades.

I can't be sure which ability I should be casting

Even absent a detection potion or Sentry, you know exactly which ability you should be casting:

• Keep up Magelight or Camou Hunter. If anyone is scratching their head as to why those skills don't work, it's 95% because you needed to cast one of those abilities earlier, while the nightblade was still visible. That's the way those skills work effectively. Casting them after a nightblade has cloaked is the wrong thing to do. However:
• Immediately going into AOE spam also works quite well. Sweeps, Sap Essence, Whirlwind, DK Breath and so on.
• Streak immediately.

It affects my perception of a fight as I can't be sure how many players I'm actually fighting.

I will grant you that.

A ramping cost would hardly impact the ability in a way that it would make you drop it from your bar

That may be true for your playstyle, but as a general statement this is completely wrong. I run a truly perma-cloaking magblade. I already pay the price for that in having to build heavily for sustain. I have been the underdog in terms of damage forever and ever, because of this. Yes, I can gank inexperienced players successfully, but I'm not an outright ganker. I am too weak for that. It is a utility playstyle that serves for questing, for Tel Var farming, as well as general PvP. A ramping cost would destroy that playstyle. I'm a veteran player, but I would argue that this type of playstyle helps new players, who adopt it, as much as it hurts new players who haven't yet learnt how to counter it.

but would help alleviate the frustration of fighting people (or groups of people) who rely on spamming it to be practically invincible in many scenarios.

You're giving yourself an out by saying "in many scenarios". However, as someone who has actually played a perma-cloaking magblade since forever, please let me set the record straight. Such builds are neither invincible nor especially powerful on the attack. They are nice to play. They may allow you to bring Tel Var home. They're good at setting fire to siege, loitering in hostile keeps or for avoiding trouble and rezzing people.

That said, I must strongly object to you calling them "practically invincible". They are not. This is only true in so far as you can spend large amounts of time in a combat area without actually engaging. You're not accomplishing much either in that case.

Cloak on it's own is not a panacea. The skill that IMO comes closer to that, in a single cast, is Streak. Streak allows you to be relatively carefree via instant repositioning and stunning people. I'm not saying Streak is better, but it is easier to use. With Cloak you have to be more circumspect. It is never just Cloak. It is "Cloak and". Cloak and speed. Cloak and Shadow Image. The latter requires discipline, foresight, and being somewhat anchored to a location. The former - speed - requires yet more build compromises. Celerity CP. All Swift jewelry. Concealed slotted when you don't even want it actively (in my case). Race Against Time and the sustain to keep it up some while cloaking. You need to be not merely fast, you need to be the fastest. You need to be faster than every one of your opponents. That's when perma-cloaking really takes off as a defensive tool.

If you run into me and you think I'm invincible, it's because I'm that fast. However you need to bear in mind that that is my defense. I do my best with the tools we have nowadays, e.g. the Esoteric Greaves, to be tanky while the stamina lasts, but I'm fundamentally squishy af. Vampire is out for sustain reasons. Light armor is in for sustain reasons. That combination is gnarly for how squishy it leaves you.

Don't get me wrong. I'm happy with my playstyle. If anything, it's been buffed and become more viable over the years. However, please don't mistake that for thinking it's strong. If you're "invincible" by Cloak, you've compromised your build to make Cloak work well. I could run Tarnished Nightmare, but I don't have the weapon / spell damage for that to pay off like it does for other nightblades.

but would help alleviate the frustration

Why? Why dumb the game down even more? If we keep going in this direction, then frustration will ultimately give way to boredom. The skill gap is real, but the skill gap makes the game worthwhile. This is an l2p issue at the end of the day. I do get countered. When my build works, it's marvelous. When it doesn't, it's miserable. I can freely run in and out of an opposing faction siege, but only if there are a lot casuals. That said, I still have to use LoS and direction change like crazy too. At such times I wonder how these guys are not on top of me. Play against good players in IC (or Cyro) and it's a completely different story. Players who know how to use detection well can completely neutralise cloaking nightblades, including me. A single sorc remains my biggest counter, despite all that sustain and speed. Streak alone, but definitely Streak with a detection potion and sorc's raw damage is OP against Cloak.

Aurielle

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

As someone who has been playing more and more NB in PvP lately, shadowy disguise really does need a ramping cost, now more than ever.

1. All the "counters" such as ele sus, entropy, etc have all been fixed (something NB mains said would need to happen before considering a ramping cost on cloak).
2. NB has 1 of the best burst heals in the game (offering is absolutely insane for a burst heal, with the same scaling as HtD, but access to significantly more modifiers (especially crit modifiers) and also at an ~25% cheaper cost (the health cost is irrelevant).
3. MagNB has permanent minor expedition now, where the speed is no longer dependent on being in stealth (this is such an insanely powerful and underrated tool in NBs kit).
4. NB has an insane amount of defensive tools at its disposal, meaning it really does not need to rely exclusively on invis anymore.

This adjustment to shadowy disguise should absolutely be for PvP specifically, so I would like to see it tied to battle spirit being active and being in combat as was suggested above by @Vaqual this way NB can still get in to gank a target, but should not be able to escape so freely as they currently can with SD.

As a consolation to PvE NB, maybe ZOS could add a passive buff to cloak when battle spirit is not active where it considers all abilities as being cast from stealth (thus proccing things like concealed bonus damage, vampire strike from shadows passive and the other secondary effects NB gets when attacking targets from stealth) as well as considering targets as being flanked all the time. This buff being limited to when battle spirit is not active allows PvE NB DD to rise up closer to the other classes in PvE without affecting PvP.

Shadowy disguise could look like the following:

• Shadowy Disguise
  • Cloak yourself in shadow to become invisible for 3 seconds. If Battle Spirit is active, while in combat, the cost of this ability is increased by 33% if recast within 3 seconds.
    
    Your next Direct Damage attack cast within 3 seconds will always be a Critical Strike.
    
    While Slotted on either bar, you gain Major Prophecy and Major Savagery, increasing your Spell and Weapon Critical Rating by 2629, also, if Battle Spirit is not active, your attacks are considered as being cast from stealth and targets are always considered as being flanked.
  Comments:
  Note: that the effects of being considered as cast from stealth and enemies always considered as being flanked that are granted when battle spirit is not active, do not consider the attacks as being cast while under the effect of shadowy disguise, but are considered being cast from crouch. I.e. these bonuses will proc things like strike from shadows vampire passive and concealed will gets its bonus 10% damage done, but there will not be a guaranteed critical strike, unless cloak is activated.
  
  The target considered as always being flanked (in PvE) would allow NB to slot backstabber over fighting finesse for 2% higher crit damage, as well as guarantee things like the master assassin passive to always be active, basically have a flat 3k pen in PvE. It also guarantees off balance from surprise attack allowing more consistent use of the 10% bonus damage from the exploiter CP.
  
  One final thing, this allows almost any ability to almost guarantee a stun on non-boss enemies (mostly helpful against the adds that don't get pulled by the tank) since they will be considered as cast from stealth, thus proccing the ruffian passive on DW for 15% bonus damage to stunned targets.

I like it — well thought-out solution. The battle spirit condition is perfect, and I honestly wish more skills and sets functioned like that in Cyrodiil.

I’m of the opinion that if anyone is going to complain about a playstyle, they really need to experience it for themselves first, because oftentimes we complain about things without fully understanding the small nuances and drawbacks. So with that in mind, after many years of occasionally playing a brawling Dark Cloak NB for my T1s and getting tired of all the constant easy-mode ranged Tarnished ganking going on, I finally decided to give the typical NB playstyle a go over the weekend.

Well, without going into all the details, the experience confirmed for me that ranged gankblades are indeed incredibly broken with very few reliable counters. I wasn’t even playing a fully optimized gank build, and it was so easy…

Cloak is both the strongest defensive AND offensive skill in the game, and it’s high time it received ramping costs in PVP environments. I’d argue that Siphoning Attacks is in dire need of adjustment as well. I initially had Darloc Brae on my backbar, then quickly realized that gankblades don’t even need to build for sustain (especially if ganking from range), because they can just easily alternate between spamming Siphoning and Rally a couple times between ganks from the safety of stealth. No other class can do that.

My main is a Templar, and my introductory experience to ranged ganking on a NB made me feel so demoralized. Why even bother to play a weak class that has relatively little chance of even coming close to pressuring or bursting enemies into execute range, when you can just play a ranged gankblade and win most of your encounters in 1-2 seconds with very little effort on your part? Why even bother to play a class that is so slow and clunky, when you can passively zip around just by slotting a skill on one of your bars? It’s laughable that Templars have to sit in their stupid little “houses” and wear Wretched Vitality for defence/sustain, while NBs just spam three buttons for defence/sustain and can invest fully into damage. No defensive CPs or armor traits required.

Aurielle

fred4 wrote: »

React wrote: »

Not being able to track a target due to them being invisible is a lot more impactful than you're giving it credit. It means I don't know which direction I should be moving or turning my camera in.

I run a truly perma-cloaking magblade. I already pay the price for that in having to build heavily for sustain. I have been the underdog in terms of damage forever and ever, because of this. Yes, I can gank inexperienced players successfully, but I'm not an outright ganker. I am too weak for that. It is a utility playstyle that serves for questing, for Tel Var farming, as well as general PvP. A ramping cost would destroy that playstyle.

Put a powered sword on your back bar, then spam alternating Siphoning Attacks and Rally from the safety of stealth after you’ve made a kill. Siphoning spam restores a ton of magicka and stamina at the cost of a bit of health, while Rally spam restores the health you lost with Siphoning. No need to build for magicka sustain.

Edit: Also, if this is just for Tel Var farming, questing, and occasional PVP ganking, just slap a Tarnished bow on your front bar with Sellestrix, and any back bar sword combo of your choice (I do Darloc Brae on my back bar, but honestly don’t even need the added sustain due to the above mentioned skill spam and could probably switch to another set that has more damage on the first three items), go full divines with all CP into damage. You will AOE one shot PVE mobs from range with Tarnished/Sellestrix and be able to spam cloak to your heart’s content. It’s almost as easy as playing a 50k+ magicka Sorcerer.

Edit 2: Just to demonstrate how you don't need to build heavily for sustain and can just build for pure damage, here's a quick little video showing how easy it is to take down PVE mobs and gank solo players while staying almost permanently in stealth without suffering sustain issues.

https://youtu.be/IrUZK6cre88?si=MxDdWQETB0P0Vnvo

I need to emphasize how utterly bad I still am at ganking and stealth NB gameplay in general. I've only been doing it for three days. Failed the first player encounter because I got too excited at the thought of killing a player in two seconds and forgot to pre-buff Major/Minor Brutality. And in the second successful encounter with the same player, cloak didn't even go off prior to my burst combo (even though I could hear it activating) because poor server performance. I also probably should have cloaked before hitting Concealed Weapon, but again, I'm new to ganking and bad at it. That same encounter on another class would have been quite different for my enemy.

Bashev

Cloak is too good right now.

The speed that any NB has is a big advantage as most AoE skills are 6m radius.

Their buffed defensive skills combined with their great burst and sustain make the class OP and only Sorcs can compete with that class right now. Actually both classes counter each other pretty well, as Sorc has the best tool to deal with cloak with streak and NB has the best tool to burst down sorc with one combo caught without shields.

BXR_Lonestar

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

If you get ganked by Nightblades, you're not tanky enough.
Reveal them and they're not that hard to kill normally.

This. People act like playing a stealthy nightblade ganger/bomber is the easiest thing in the world - its not. Cloak only lasts 3 seconds, which is super short. For those who want it shortened, how short do you really want this thing to be? An instant-return to visability? That's ridiculous. 3 Seconds is short enough, and the only reason why it is spammed is precisely because it doesn't last long (enough IMO).

Secondly, most good players don't just rely on just spamming cloak to get away. Typically its a combination of invisibility potions, cloak spam, and vampire passive that allows you to go invisible while sprinting.

Lastly, stealth is literally the ONLY thing that allows these builds to survive (I know because I've spent a lot of time recently playing mine). Otherwise, you are pretty much instantly wiped out if players find you out in the open because you have all but 18-22k health and your in all medium armor or light armor. If you want to counter me, then pop a detect pot, or use flare/magelight/ camo hunter. If you want to talk about increasing the effective range/duration of those abilities, I'm happy to have THAT conversation. But what you are suggesting here is to nerf cloak into non-viability which would basically completely eliminate a playstyle that is otherwise a legitimate way to play - you just happen to not like it.

JustLovely

They should make cloak a scribing skill, then every class can have access to cloak.

fred4

@Aurielle You're excited about nightblade. Welcome to the class, but you seem to be in your honeymoon period right now. I've been playing it for 9 years and I've tried just about everything.

I get that the combination of Rally and Siphoning Attacks is nice, but Rally is the only heal I know that doesn't uncloak you. I don't have room for it in my build, nor for 2H in general. I've played around with Vigor in it's place, but ultimately that doesn't give me the consistent speed I want, even if I had the bar space. I heavily rely on Race Against Time. Between the looming siege, ball groups and sorcs on the battlefield, not to mention the Arcanists rooting you, I'm not sorry.

I actually find magblade quite demanding on sustain in combat too, but then again I don't just gank. I brawl when I can. Using Siphoning Attacks actively in a brawl would be dangerous.

I can only agree with Lonestar. Ask yourself who you predominantly kill. It's other nightblades, don't lie. They may be dangerous or annoying to catch, but only a few are tanky.

monkidb16_ESO

React wrote: »

Not being able to track a target due to them being invisible is a lot more impactful than you're giving it credit.

I did say the NB gets a potential informational advantage, but it is just that: potential. Whether or not that potential can manifest entirely relies on the NBs opponent as there are multiple hard counters to cloak, at least in melee range.

At range cloak is an entirely different issue and a ramping cost will do absolutely nothing to balance that, the suggestion I provided are much better at reigning in ranged cloak abuse.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Shadowy disguise could look like the following:

• Shadowy Disguise
  • Cloak yourself in shadow to become invisible for 3 seconds. If Battle Spirit is active, while in combat, the cost of this ability is increased by 33% if recast within 3 seconds.

Congratulations, you failed the litmus test I presented earlier.
With this suggestion a NB casting cloak exactly every 3 seconds will remain perma stealthed on enemy screens without any ramping costs. You managed to only raise the skill ceiling to do so.

Aurielle wrote: »

Edit 2: Just to demonstrate how you don't need to build heavily for sustain and can just build for pure damage, here's a quick little video showing how easy it is to take down PVE mobs and gank solo players while staying almost permanently in stealth without suffering sustain issues.

https://youtu.be/IrUZK6cre88?si=MxDdWQETB0P0Vnvo

This video perfectly encapsulates the point that a ramping cost misses the entire point. I've counted how many times it would have proced in this clip:
It's three times, once at 0:24 to get back into stealth faster after an insta kill on a mob and once at 2:03 when the previous cloak insta broke due to an incoming attack and a final time at 2:13 after the NB was already disengaged.

Navaac223

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

If you get ganked by Nightblades, you're not tanky enough.
Reveal them and they're not that hard to kill normally.

This. People act like playing a stealthy nightblade ganger/bomber is the easiest thing in the world - its not.

It is. (except maybe for zerging but gankers can join a zerg)

Also, this post was never for gankers, rather for all nightblades : cloak can help you reset fights by simply spamming cloak and syphoning attacks. Any decent player can counter most gankers but not brawlerblades that use cloak as a way to reset and deal damage.

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

If you get ganked by Nightblades, you're not tanky enough.
Reveal them and they're not that hard to kill normally.

Lastly, stealth is literally the ONLY thing that allows these builds to survive (I know because I've spent a lot of time recently playing mine). Otherwise, you are pretty much instantly wiped out if players find you out in the open because you have all but 18-22k health and your in all medium armor or light armor. If you want to counter me, then pop a detect pot, or use flare/magelight/ camo hunter. If you want to talk about increasing the effective range/duration of those abilities, I'm happy to have THAT conversation. But what you are suggesting here is to nerf cloak into non-viability which would basically completely eliminate a playstyle that is otherwise a legitimate way to play - you just happen to not like it.

Why always the same argument ? "You can use detect pots and slot skills to counter it". If you have to change your build to counter a class, it's a good sign that it's op. You don't see many people slotting silver leash to counter templars' ground HoTs or major evasion to counter blastbones, do you ?

And no, cloak isn't the only defensive tool of nb : there's also the insane base movement speed and the most powerful burst heal in the game (ntm that the pressure from their insanely overpowered spammable prevents ennemies from always attacking)

Galeriano2

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

If you get ganked by Nightblades, you're not tanky enough.

Says every nightblade that also complains about too tanky meta...

Aurielle

fred4 wrote: »

@Aurielle You're excited about nightblade. Welcome to the class, but you seem to be in your honeymoon period right now. I've been playing it for 9 years and I've tried just about everything.

I get that the combination of Rally and Siphoning Attacks is nice, but Rally is the only heal I know that doesn't uncloak you. I don't have room for it in my build, nor for 2H in general. I've played around with Vigor in it's place, but ultimately that doesn't give me the consistent speed I want, even if I had the bar space. I heavily rely on Race Against Time. Between the looming siege, ball groups and sorcs on the battlefield, not to mention the Arcanists rooting you, I'm not sorry.

I actually find magblade quite demanding on sustain in combat too, but then again I don't just gank. I brawl when I can. Using Siphoning Attacks actively in a brawl would be dangerous.

I can only agree with Lonestar. Ask yourself who you predominantly kill. It's other nightblades, don't lie. They may be dangerous or annoying to catch, but only a few are tanky.

Did you watch the video? I killed a 30k health Palatine rank DK in two seconds on a sub-optimal gank build, after resetting a fight I only lost due to my own clumsiness in forgetting to pre-buff for the fight. I also killed plenty other non-NBs over the weekend in 1-2 seconds, many of whom were sitting between 30-35k health. It was just a matter of choosing the right moment (which I was able to fully control, thanks to being able to spam cloak endlessly) and side-stepping dodgy situations that could pull me out of stealth. I actually killed very few NBs, because they were all perma-stealthed as well and I was too lazy to craft detect pots.

The combination of Rally and Siphoning Attacks isn't just "nice," it's full-blown overpowered for sustaining magicka in particular, which in turn means your ability to use cloak defensively without having to use particular sets to make that happen is significant. You said yourself that your own damage suffers because you've had to build so heavily into sustain and speed in order to permacloak, and you're too weak to gank anything other than inexperienced players. If you put Rally and Siphoning Attacks on your backbar, you can invest fully into damage and not have the sustain problems you refer to -- and because you hit so hard, you won't have to run away from fights so quickly (because you'll win more of them), so you can use infused traits on your jewelry rather than swift for even more damage. Another benefit of Rally is you can pre-buff Major Brutality/Sorcery without having to enter combat, which is not the case with Sap Essence/Power Extraction. If you rely on spamming cloak a lot for defensive purposes, I'm honestly not really sure why you wouldn't make room for 2H and Rally/Siphoning Attacks, when it's easily the most OP non set-based combo for sustain in the game and it won't pull you out of stealth.

Also, if you're brawling and not ganking, perhaps build yourself less squishy and try Dark Cloak instead? I brawled on and off for many years on my NB and used Dark Cloak most times. I did briefly brawl with Shadowy Disguise on a build I copied from @React and modified slightly (that was a sweet build, by the way!). Dark Cloak paired with tankier sets was personally just a little safer for me when I brawled, because I simply didn't have the skill to execute the build to its fullest potential.

monkidb16_ESO wrote: »

React wrote: »

Not being able to track a target due to them being invisible is a lot more impactful than you're giving it credit.

I did say the NB gets a potential informational advantage, but it is just that: potential. Whether or not that potential can manifest entirely relies on the NBs opponent as there are multiple hard counters to cloak, at least in melee range.

At range cloak is an entirely different issue and a ramping cost will do absolutely nothing to balance that, the suggestion I provided are much better at reigning in ranged cloak abuse.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Shadowy disguise could look like the following:

• Shadowy Disguise
  • Cloak yourself in shadow to become invisible for 3 seconds. If Battle Spirit is active, while in combat, the cost of this ability is increased by 33% if recast within 3 seconds.

Congratulations, you failed the litmus test I presented earlier.
With this suggestion a NB casting cloak exactly every 3 seconds will remain perma stealthed on enemy screens without any ramping costs. You managed to only raise the skill ceiling to do so.

Aurielle wrote: »

Edit 2: Just to demonstrate how you don't need to build heavily for sustain and can just build for pure damage, here's a quick little video showing how easy it is to take down PVE mobs and gank solo players while staying almost permanently in stealth without suffering sustain issues.

https://youtu.be/IrUZK6cre88?si=MxDdWQETB0P0Vnvo

This video perfectly encapsulates the point that a ramping cost misses the entire point. I've counted how many times it would have proced in this clip:
It's three times, once at 0:24 to get back into stealth faster after an insta kill on a mob and once at 2:03 when the previous cloak insta broke due to an incoming attack and a final time at 2:13 after the NB was already disengaged.

The point of that video was not to demonstrate why cloak needs ramping costs, but rather to demonstrate that a NB does not need to invest heavily into sustain to be able to remain in stealth almost constantly while still dishing out a decent amount of damage against Imperial City mobs and players. Fred says his own NB is built around a "utility playstyle that serves for questing, for Tel Var farming, as well as general PvP," so that's what I was focusing on. You will note that I didn't even have a resource potion slotted and was using tri-stat food, just to prove my point. I wasn't spamming cloak much because I didn't really need to in that situation.

Ramping cloak costs become necessary when ganking NBs are terrorizing whole groups of players and picking them off one by one, while also still being able to weasel their way out of various stealth counters by relying on their superior speed and ability to spam cloak over and over again. Also, when cloak is offensively weaved between skills by someone who is brawling and not using cloak for escape purposes, it guarantees 100% uptime on Strike from the Shadows (a free boost of 300 WD/SD that only NBs can take full advantage of, because other classes can't just enter stealth constantly at will when they're vamps), along with guaranteed critical strikes. Imagine if every time a Sorc streaked, they got an extra 300 WD/SD and a guaranteed crit on their next skill cast, and they could just do it over and over again with no magicka penalty...

I do think your idea of disabling cloak for a few seconds after striking from stealth could work to curtail the OP nature of spamming cloak offensively during a fight. Cooldowns do suck in general, though, and one of the things that sets ESO apart from other MMOs is the fact that skills don't have cooldowns. It would be weird to have just one skill in the game with a cooldown, especially when the much fairer concept of ramping resource costs on certain abilities already exists. Your idea also does nothing to solve NBs spamming cloak to easily get out of hairy situations and reset every fight when it's not going in their favor.

monkidb16_ESO

Aurielle wrote: »

The point of that video was not to demonstrate why cloak needs ramping costs,

And yet it proved that a ramping cost would do nothing to address the actual issue.

Aurielle wrote: »

it guarantees 100% uptime on Strike from the Shadows

Strike from the Shadows is 6 seconds. A 3 second ramping cost does nothing to prevent 100% uptime.

Aurielle wrote: »

Imagine if every time a Sorc streaked, they got an extra 300 WD/SD and a guaranteed crit on their next skill cast

Sorcs could gain 300 WD/SD a pseudo-dodge and a choice between a lifesteal aura or root+snare immunity if they wanted. But they don't since Streak is still way stronger that Mist Form.

Aurielle wrote: »

It would be weird to have just one skill in the game with a cooldown

There is precedent since Arcanists teleport.

Aurielle wrote: »

especially when the much fairer concept of ramping resource costs on certain abilities already exists

It's not "fairer" it is pointless since it doesn't address the underlying issue.

Aurielle wrote: »

Your idea also does nothing to solve NBs spamming cloak to easily get out of hairy situations and reset every fight when it's not going in their favor.

You mean like the ramping cost prevents Streak spamming Sorc from resetting? Oh wait... it doesn't either.

Aurielle

monkidb16_ESO wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

The point of that video was not to demonstrate why cloak needs ramping costs,

And yet it proved that a ramping cost would do nothing to address the actual issue.

Aurielle wrote: »

it guarantees 100% uptime on Strike from the Shadows

Strike from the Shadows is 6 seconds. A 3 second ramping cost does nothing to prevent 100% uptime.

Aurielle wrote: »

Imagine if every time a Sorc streaked, they got an extra 300 WD/SD and a guaranteed crit on their next skill cast

Sorcs could gain 300 WD/SD a pseudo-dodge and a choice between a lifesteal aura or root+snare immunity if they wanted. But they don't since Streak is still way stronger that Mist Form.

Aurielle wrote: »

It would be weird to have just one skill in the game with a cooldown

There is precedent since Arcanists teleport.

Aurielle wrote: »

especially when the much fairer concept of ramping resource costs on certain abilities already exists

It's not "fairer" it is pointless since it doesn't address the underlying issue.

Aurielle wrote: »

Your idea also does nothing to solve NBs spamming cloak to easily get out of hairy situations and reset every fight when it's not going in their favor.

You mean like the ramping cost prevents Streak spamming Sorc from resetting? Oh wait... it doesn't either.

Did I personally say cloak should have a three second ramping cost? No, I didn't. How about reducing the duration of Strike from the Shadows to three seconds (because let's be real, it's only NBs benefiting from this passive anyway) and have the ramping cost on cloak occur if it's recast within four seconds, like Streak? This would absolutely fix the underlying issue of NBs spamming cloak as soon as its three second duration ends (or just before), because if they wanted to avoid the ramping magicka cost, they'd have to be visible for a second or hope they don't get pulled out of crouch. If they don't want to be visible for a second and/or or don't want to lose 100% uptime on Strike from the Shadows, then they have to pay for that with each subsequent cloak getting 33% more expensive. Not even the Rally/Siphoning Attacks combo would be enough to offset that if they're spamming cloak repeatedly. It would mean they'd actually have to build for sustain like other classes do, and couldn't just stack three damaging sets while also dumping all CP into damage.

Sorcs are still very good at resetting fights despite the ramping cost on Streak, yes. And they would be even more OP without it if they could just spam streak endlessly. This is the whole point we're making here. Skills that extremely powerful for resetting fights and/or enabling huge burst combos should have ramping costs, because those force you to make certain build decisions. Even my 52k magicka Sorc is running Wretched on the backbar, because I can't just streak several times to reset without also needing some way to regain magicka as quickly as possible after resetting the fight.

monkidb16_ESO

Aurielle wrote: »

have the ramping cost on cloak occur if it's recast within four seconds, like Streak?

Comparing guaranteed and potential advantages again, are we?
But sure, let's also make Sorcs rewind to their original position when they get hit, or the opponent uses a potion/Magelight/CamoHunter then. You were all about fairness, right?

Aurielle wrote: »

Even my 52k magicka Sorc

Ah, Meta Sorc ... that explains it.

Aurielle

monkidb16_ESO wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

have the ramping cost on cloak occur if it's recast within four seconds, like Streak?

Comparing guaranteed and potential advantages again, are we?
But sure, let's also make Sorcs rewind to their original position when they get hit, or the opponent uses a potion/Magelight/CamoHunter then. You were all about fairness, right?

Aurielle wrote: »

Even my 52k magicka Sorc

Ah, Meta Sorc ... that explains it.

My main is actually a Templar, lol. Both Sorc and NB are beyond broken compared to Templars. Sorc would be even more broken than it already is without ramping costs on streak, and NBs absolutely need ramping costs on cloak, especially now that ZOS has fixed the old problem of certain skills pulling NBs out of cloak.

I play one of every class to better learn their strengths and weaknesses (and also to enjoy a little bit of FOTM when I get tired of bashing my head against the floor of my Templar's stupid house). As someone who still mains one of the weakest PVP classes in the game, it's endlessly amusing to me when mains of OP classes cannot even bring themselves to acknowledge when certain skills are giving them an unfair advantage.

If you think this is an issue of "meta sorcs" not understanding NB, React is one of the best NB mains on PC NA, and he's right here in this thread telling you that cloak needs ramping costs.

System_Data

React wrote: »

snip
It means I don't know which direction I should be moving or turning my camera in, I can't be sure which ability I should be casting, it affects my positioning in a way that nothing else in the game does, it affects my perception of a fight as I can't be sure how many players I'm actually fighting.

Cloak is undoubtedly one of the strongest abilities in the game, and has been for a while, but even more so now with the added major savagery on both bars. A ramping cost would hardly impact the ability in a way that it would make you drop it from your bar, but would help alleviate the frustration of fighting people (or groups of people) who rely on spamming it to be practically invincible in many scenarios.

NB main here, btw.

Aurielle wrote: »

snip
If you think this is an issue of "meta sorcs" not understanding NB, React is one of the best NB mains on PC NA, and he's right here in this thread telling you that cloak needs ramping costs.

Don't know who React is, but you have plethora of ways to deal with nightblades including a 8 meter aoe class skill which allows you to not aimlessly turn your camera and needing barely to move to pull nighblades out. If you're dealing with multiple nightblades, it's not like one detect pot won't reveal all of them and just because you're dealing with multiple nightblades, it doesn't mean you need to engage them. It should be quite normal that multiple players would beat one player.

Are you really asking ZOS to balance nightblade around the supposedly top nightblade players? You realize that most nightblades/players are casuals right? You won't be seeing new players in pvp that'll stay if you do so. There's a reason why ffxiv balances around the casual demographics and in turn have more players participating on a wide range of content.

I played a bow stamina necromancer, one of the weaker class in pvp, against a melee tarnished nightblade and wasn't even worried at all. You bet they were spamming cloak, but they got pulled out of it every time and then they died. It is actually doable to bring out nightblades from stealth, and if you don't kill them and they reset, well guess what, you also can reset.

This whole stick of wanting to add ramping cost to nightblade's cloak and comparing it to sorcerer's streak is wrong because they don't even function remotely similar. At best, cloak is more similar to sorcerer's conjured ward and last time i checked, there's no ramping cost on that.

fred4

Aurielle wrote: »

Did you watch the video? I killed a 30k health Palatine rank DK in two seconds on a sub-optimal gank build, after resetting a fight I only lost due to my own clumsiness in forgetting to pre-buff for the fight.

Yes, I've watched the video. You killed a PvEer who didn't react the second time around, but kept swinging their greatsword at an NPC. It wasn't because you were a nightblade. It was because PvEers are easy to kill. Ranks are no indication of a player's prowess. It only means they've spent a lot of time in Cyro, not that they're good.

I also killed plenty other non-NBs over the weekend in 1-2 seconds, many of whom were sitting between 30-35k health.

Not that player. It took you at least 3 skill casts by my count, a bow attack, Concealed / Surprise Attack, and Grim Focus. That's not nitpicking. That's important. You didn't stun that player with your opener, nor did you achieve a 2 second kill time. The target had ample time to react, only they didn't.

and you're too weak to gank anything other than inexperienced players.

So are you by the evidence you've shown. You killed an inexperienced player, or that's certainly how they acted.

If you put Rally and Siphoning Attacks on your backbar, you can invest fully into damage and not have the sustain problems you refer to -- and because you hit so hard, you won't have to run away from fights so quickly (because you'll win more of them), so you can use infused traits on your jewelry rather than swift for even more damage. Another benefit of Rally is you can pre-buff Major Brutality/Sorcery without having to enter combat, which is not the case with Sap Essence/Power Extraction. If you rely on spamming cloak a lot for defensive purposes, I'm honestly not really sure why you wouldn't make room for 2H and Rally/Siphoning Attacks, when it's easily the most OP non set-based combo for sustain in the game and it won't pull you out of stealth.

I use 1H+S or ice staff, because that is by far the best back bar weapon when fighting people who know how to fight, such as when two players decide to focus the "squishy nightblade", when I have to stop and hold block for a meteor, and so on. I use a potion when ganking. Also, I'm a ranged magblade, so please don't tell me to put 2H on the front bar.

Also, if you're brawling and not ganking, perhaps build yourself less squishy and try Dark Cloak instead?

I play other classes for that. I play nightblade to have a different experience.

Ramping cloak costs become necessary when ganking NBs are terrorizing whole groups of players and picking them off one by one, while also still being able to weasel their way out of various stealth counters by relying on their superior speed and ability to spam cloak over and over again.

Those are the tools of nightblade. Do not assume this is easy. The point of the class is to "weasel" and not play like other classes, if you want to put it that way. You don't start dismantling the class-defining feature. Alongside fixes to cloak, ZOS also doubled the pulse frequency and increased the duration and range of Magelight / Camou Hunter, if I remember correctly. Nightblade can already be countered.

Also, when cloak is offensively weaved between skills by someone who is brawling and not using cloak for escape purposes, it guarantees 100% uptime on Strike from the Shadows (a free boost of 300 WD/SD that only NBs can take full advantage of, because other classes can't just enter stealth constantly at will when they're vamps), along with guaranteed critical strikes.

At the cost of losing a GCD to casting Cloak every time. That's an overall damage loss unless you manage to burst and kill someone as a result. In other words, this is part of NBs burst combo. Cloaking makes that a highly telegraphed one which good players will counter by blocking or dodge rolling in a brawl every time. The only time when cloak can be truly OP is outright ganks and bombs. However you actually have to pull those off.

Imagine if every time a Sorc streaked, they got an extra 300 WD/SD and a guaranteed crit on their next skill cast, and they could just do it over and over again with no magicka penalty...

Good sorcs may Streak, turn 180, and frag you. Streak is a stun. The target cannot act for 1s. The response to Cloak, on the other hand, is that they will anticipate your burst while having full agency.

Your idea also does nothing to solve NBs spamming cloak to easily get out of hairy situations and reset every fight when it's not going in their favor.

But that is NB in a nutshell. The whole point of having a class like this, and sorc to a lesser degree, is that you can disengage at will. This is a large part of what makes solo play viable in open world, where numbers otherwise trump everything.

Theist_VII

System_Data wrote: »

No
Get an aoe ability, use skills that reveals them or pots. Maybe ask for a nerf to their burst, or take a portion of their merciless proc and convert it into a 4 second dot or something.
What with this hard on for ramping cost on abilities, next you'll see ramping cost on burst heals cause that's overpowered as well.

AoE skills have not had their range increased to combat the melee range increase, making them less effective at pulling Blades than ever before.

Forget a ramping cost on burst heals, the real problem is blockcasting. Everything Blades do can be blockcast outside of their ultimate and any good one will be negating most of your damage when they go offensive.

There’s zero risk.

Amottica

fred4 wrote: »

React wrote: »

Not being able to track a target due to them being invisible is a lot more impactful than you're giving it credit. It means I don't know which direction I should be moving or turning my camera in.

Only if you're trying to re-detect a nightblade after they have successfully cloaked. That is not the way to counter nightblades.

I can't be sure which ability I should be casting

Even absent a detection potion or Sentry, you know exactly which ability you should be casting:

• Keep up Magelight or Camou Hunter. If anyone is scratching their head as to why those skills don't work, it's 95% because you needed to cast one of those abilities earlier, while the nightblade was still visible. That's the way those skills work effectively. Casting them after a nightblade has cloaked is the wrong thing to do. However:
• Immediately going into AOE spam also works quite well. Sweeps, Sap Essence, Whirlwind, DK Breath and so on.
• Streak immediately.

It affects my perception of a fight as I can't be sure how many players I'm actually fighting.

I will grant you that.

A ramping cost would hardly impact the ability in a way that it would make you drop it from your bar

That may be true for your playstyle, but as a general statement this is completely wrong. I run a truly perma-cloaking magblade. I already pay the price for that in having to build heavily for sustain. I have been the underdog in terms of damage forever and ever, because of this. Yes, I can gank inexperienced players successfully, but I'm not an outright ganker. I am too weak for that. It is a utility playstyle that serves for questing, for Tel Var farming, as well as general PvP. A ramping cost would destroy that playstyle. I'm a veteran player, but I would argue that this type of playstyle helps new players, who adopt it, as much as it hurts new players who haven't yet learnt how to counter it.

but would help alleviate the frustration of fighting people (or groups of people) who rely on spamming it to be practically invincible in many scenarios.

You're giving yourself an out by saying "in many scenarios". However, as someone who has actually played a perma-cloaking magblade since forever, please let me set the record straight. Such builds are neither invincible nor especially powerful on the attack. They are nice to play. They may allow you to bring Tel Var home. They're good at setting fire to siege, loitering in hostile keeps or for avoiding trouble and rezzing people.

That said, I must strongly object to you calling them "practically invincible". They are not. This is only true in so far as you can spend large amounts of time in a combat area without actually engaging. You're not accomplishing much either in that case.

Cloak on it's own is not a panacea. The skill that IMO comes closer to that, in a single cast, is Streak. Streak allows you to be relatively carefree via instant repositioning and stunning people. I'm not saying Streak is better, but it is easier to use. With Cloak you have to be more circumspect. It is never just Cloak. It is "Cloak and". Cloak and speed. Cloak and Shadow Image. The latter requires discipline, foresight, and being somewhat anchored to a location. The former - speed - requires yet more build compromises. Celerity CP. All Swift jewelry. Concealed slotted when you don't even want it actively (in my case). Race Against Time and the sustain to keep it up some while cloaking. You need to be not merely fast, you need to be the fastest. You need to be faster than every one of your opponents. That's when perma-cloaking really takes off as a defensive tool.

If you run into me and you think I'm invincible, it's because I'm that fast. However you need to bear in mind that that is my defense. I do my best with the tools we have nowadays, e.g. the Esoteric Greaves, to be tanky while the stamina lasts, but I'm fundamentally squishy af. Vampire is out for sustain reasons. Light armor is in for sustain reasons. That combination is gnarly for how squishy it leaves you.

Don't get me wrong. I'm happy with my playstyle. If anything, it's been buffed and become more viable over the years. However, please don't mistake that for thinking it's strong. If you're "invincible" by Cloak, you've compromised your build to make Cloak work well. I could run Tarnished Nightmare, but I don't have the weapon / spell damage for that to pay off like it does for other nightblades.

but would help alleviate the frustration

Why? Why dumb the game down even more? If we keep going in this direction, then frustration will ultimately give way to boredom. The skill gap is real, but the skill gap makes the game worthwhile. This is an l2p issue at the end of the day. I do get countered. When my build works, it's marvelous. When it doesn't, it's miserable. I can freely run in and out of an opposing faction siege, but only if there are a lot casuals. That said, I still have to use LoS and direction change like crazy too. At such times I wonder how these guys are not on top of me. Play against good players in IC (or Cyro) and it's a completely different story. Players who know how to use detection well can completely neutralise cloaking nightblades, including me. A single sorc remains my biggest counter, despite all that sustain and speed. Streak alone, but definitely Streak with a detection potion and sorc's raw damage is OP against Cloak.

This is a well-written post on countering the cloak. I have said before that not figuring out how to counter the cloak or choosing not to use the counters does not indicate a problem with the design.

In my small guild group, two players run counters to cloak and have no choice but to do so. When I run solo, which I like to hunt gankers around keeps, I run a counter to cloak and pawn NBs. They do work well.

With that in mind, a very skilled player is not a one-trick pony. They have more up their sleeve to evade than shadow disguise. It is the newer NB that relies on cloak and they tend to be easy to take out if one knows how to take them out of cloak.