End of chapter bosses?

Castagere

So i could complete the base game boss fight and some of the earlier chapter boss fights. But I would say the last two chapter bosses have the most insane mechanics I have ever seen. Why are the DLC and chapter-end boss fights so insane when all the other content in these stories are manageable to complete.? I would love to hear the pitch meeting where they come up with this stuff. Right now the only way I can enjoy the game it skip these boss fights and enjoy the overland new zones to play in.

AcadianPaladin

I suspect the Chapter final boss increasing difficulty we are seeing is the result of complaints about overland/questing being too easy. The ability of individual players to solo bosses runs for poor to awesome, so I believe the only realistic solution is a difficulty slider.

The under 50 leveling process already passively buffs the player while keeping the world static. I think that is the approach. Give players the option to either buff or nerf themselves. The details of how this would apply to group dungeons and groups in general could be worked out - like the slider is inactive or is set for the whole group by the group leader. I'm confident the devs could work out those kinds of details.

If that is not practical, then a simpler difficulty slider could be incorporated for solo instance content (like end of Chapter boss fights are).

DenverRalphy

All those bosses that are now easy were comparatively just as difficult when they made their first appearance as well. They just became easier over time as new skills, gear, sets, mechanics, etc.. were added to the game.

Even now, I dare say that the end of chapter bosses aren't really all that difficult at all if the mechanics are followed and used.

Castagere

As an older gamer, my reaction times are not like they were when I was 20. I probably am one of the old-timers in the game now. I can follow the mechanics and it still won't help me. so out of frustration of quitting, I skip all these bosses in the DLC and chapters now.

TaSheen

Castagere wrote: »

As an older gamer, my reaction times are not like they were when I was 20. I probably am one of the old-timers in the game now. I can follow the mechanics and it still won't help me. so out of frustration of quitting, I skip all these bosses in the DLC and chapters now.

Yup. Same for me. The story quests I used to love to complete have been way too hard for me since High Isle; I did get past the Ascendant Magus, but it was NOT EASY.... and nor was the damned dragon in N Elsweyr, so no S Elsweyr for me either, and also no Galen or future chapters.

SkaiFaith

Maybe you can still find it - in 2021 someone made a video of his character dancing for the whole fight with Dagon while his companion killed him.
That was a sign something was wrong... So Devs took the opposite approach.

Personally I found the middle ground like the Firesong DLC final boss (not the whole year long story one) to be a nice sweetspot. I had no problems myself in Necrom or Gold Road, but these kind of fights used to have a system that made them easier if you failed them many times - at least base game main quest worked this way; isn't It still like this?

DP99

They're a bit more complicated, but by no means are they impossible, and I'm not ever any kind of elite player whatsoever. Nor, am I as young as I used to be, being in my 40s. I've been able to complete every chapter with minimum difficulty with my Bosmer Nightblade and a companion.

DoofusMax

I think the devs upped the end-boss difficulty slightly for the last couple of chapters, probably because of "overland is too easy," but only slightly. Keep in mind that ESO's "go anywhere" philosophy means that a character who starts a chapter as a Level 2 or 3 needs to be able to beat that boss by the time they reach the end of the story, they need to be able to do it with whatever gear they've picked up (or crafted) along the way, and they need to be able to go directly from story point to story point. If any of those aren't there, then there is some sort of gating going on. Story-gating is understandable and you probably shouldn't be beating the BBET (big-bad evil thing) until after you've done the intro and rising action, but "gating" and "go anywhere" are mostly incompatible design philosophies.

SilverBride

The difficulty has been increasing progressively with each new chapter since around High Isle. It's reached a point that many can no longer finish the zone story. If this trend doesn't change I won't be purchasing any more new chapters.

And it had been significant increases, not just slightly. My characters are well geared so I can still defeat them, but the fights are so long and drawn out that they aren't the least bit enjoyable any more.

And they may be easy for some but there are MANY that struggle with these. The zone story should never have been increased in difficulty to a level that so many can no longer defeat them or enjoy them.

OsUfi

This is something that boggles my mind. I'm a really bad DPS. I'm currently running a new necro, one bar, resto staff wielding, 4 soul magic skill using, light armour, oblivions foe using oddity of a build. I imagine I'm barely doing 20k DPS. Possibly closer to 10k. I have had no trouble with anything in main quests and story mode.

I can see someone dying maybe a couple of times to mechanics or not noticing they're standing in the red, but not actually being able to finish the chapter?

TaSheen

OsUfi wrote: »

This is something that boggles my mind. I'm a really bad DPS. I'm currently running a new necro, one bar, resto staff wielding, 4 soul magic skill using, light armour, oblivions foe using oddity of a build. I imagine I'm barely doing 20k DPS. Possibly closer to 10k. I have had no trouble with anything in main quests and story mode.

I can see someone dying maybe a couple of times to mechanics or not noticing they're standing in the red, but not actually being able to finish the chapter?

I'm dealing with high ping (satellite being my only connection), bad reflexes due to my age, and hands that are stiff and not really flexible enough for this type of combat. I'm glad you don't have these problems.

colossalvoids

Yeah I've saw couple of people mentioning it on forums but never noticed anything similar myself or heard anywhere else, would actually be interesting to look if anyone posted a video of it or something with comparison of what's actually different there compared to what's been before last two chapters.

OsUfi

TaSheen wrote: »

OsUfi wrote: »

This is something that boggles my mind. I'm a really bad DPS. I'm currently running a new necro, one bar, resto staff wielding, 4 soul magic skill using, light armour, oblivions foe using oddity of a build. I imagine I'm barely doing 20k DPS. Possibly closer to 10k. I have had no trouble with anything in main quests and story mode.

I can see someone dying maybe a couple of times to mechanics or not noticing they're standing in the red, but not actually being able to finish the chapter?

I'm dealing with high ping (satellite being my only connection), bad reflexes due to my age, and hands that are stiff and not really flexible enough for this type of combat. I'm glad you don't have these problems.

Bold of you to assume I'm young, in perfect health, and not playing ESO on a little micro PC via a 4g connection in the Scottish hills where there's no reception.

But sure, OK.

MasterSpatula

There's a contingent of the players who want this to be an arcade game who are, for whatever reason, genuinely threatened by the idea of players with slow or poor reflexes, clumsy players, and disabled players being able to complete and enjoy the story-focused aspects of the game. I don't think I've personally died to any of these bosses, except for the final boss of the Elsweyr epilogue, but I can't say I really enjoyed any of these fights, either. I'm pretty sure my neighbors heard me yelling, "Okay, ENOUGH!" halfway through the fights.

In the ten years this since this game released, my eyesight has gotten substantially worse and I've become a remarkably worse typist (and thus, a lot more likely to hit the wrong key during combat.) Another ten years, and I might be joining OP in saying I can't complete this content. Thing is, I'm a lifelong RPG enthusiast. I should be this game's target audience. But I very much feel I am not. I'd hoped the massive success of Baldur's Gate 3 would have taught ZOS the lesson that there's a huge audience for RPG's with combat a little closer to D&D and a little farther from COD, but I suppose that was a pipe dream.

TaSheen

MasterSpatula wrote: »

There's a contingent of the players who want this to be an arcade game who are, for whatever reason, genuinely threatened by the idea of players with slow or poor reflexes, clumsy players, and disabled players being able to complete and enjoy the story-focused aspects of the game. I don't think I've personally died to any of these bosses, except for the final boss of the Elsweyr epilogue, but I can't say I really enjoyed any of these fights, either. I'm pretty sure my neighbors heard me yelling, "Okay, ENOUGH!" halfway through the fights.

In the ten years this since this game released, my eyesight has gotten substantially worse and I've become a remarkably worse typist (and thus, a lot more likely to hit the wrong key during combat.) Another ten years, and I might be joining OP in saying I can't complete this content. Thing is, I'm a lifelong RPG enthusiast. I should be this game's target audience. But I very much feel I am not. I'd hoped the massive success of Baldur's Gate 3 would have taught ZOS the lesson that there's a huge audience for RPG's with combat a little closer to D&D and a little farther from COD, but I suppose that was a pipe dream.

I'm lucky that I don't have near neighbors, and my husband is so used to me cussing at the screen when playing he just doesn't really hear me any more....

AzuraFan

I can understand that some players think the story bosses are too easy. I don't have a problem with them. But to me it's bad design to have all the fights leading up to the chapter bosses manageable by the vast majority of players, and then have the final chapter boss ramped up so much in difficulty that some players who have made it that far can't defeat the boss. Imagine the frustration of that, spending hours playing through the story and reaching the end, only to not be able to beat that one boss, no matter how hard you try. They shouldn't ramp the difficulty up so much. It's not really fair at that stage. The difficulty should be pretty consistent through the entirety of the main quest.

Castagere

AzuraFan wrote: »

I can understand that some players think the story bosses are too easy. I don't have a problem with them. But to me it's bad design to have all the fights leading up to the chapter bosses manageable by the vast majority of players, and then have the final chapter boss ramped up so much in difficulty that some players who have made it that far can't defeat the boss. Imagine the frustration of that, spending hours playing through the story and reaching the end, only to not be able to beat that one boss, no matter how hard you try. They shouldn't ramp the difficulty up so much. It's not really fair at that stage. The difficulty should be pretty consistent through the entirety of the main quest.

For me, this was the necrom boss with all those lasers going off. I have tried more times than I can count to beat her. and I just can't do it anymore. If these chapters didn't have new zones to explore I wouldn't buy them either.

katanagirl1

The difficulty in story bosses has been increasing. I use the same character for all story content and I was surprised that when fighting the Ascendant Whatever boss in the first part of the High Isle story that I actually got killed. She is not my best dps character but is decent. She is also melee so staying out of stupid is not always possible. I think I got about 2 ticks of damage in a huge fire aoe and I was done.

The last boss in the epilogue story for West Weald was quite a long drawn out fight as well. It’s like these boss battles now have to have full group dungeon mechanics in them. I can do them, but I think they are more than what story quests need to have. It’s really more than I want to do for a story quest. I don’t think it’s fair that a number of players cannot finish the story because the complaints of players who want a challenge in every single thing in the game that is not group content has ruined it for them. There are plenty of challenges to be found in vet arenas, group dungeon HMs, and trial HMs, and IA.

TaSheen

katanagirl1 wrote: »

The difficulty in story bosses has been increasing. I use the same character for all story content and I was surprised that when fighting the Ascendant Whatever boss in the first part of the High Isle story that I actually got killed. She is not my best dps character but is decent. She is also melee so staying out of stupid is not always possible. I think I got about 2 ticks of damage in a huge fire aoe and I was done.

The last boss in the epilogue story for West Weald was quite a long drawn out fight as well. It’s like these boss battles now have to have full group dungeon mechanics in them. I can do them, but I think they are more than what story quests need to have. It’s really more than I want to do for a story quest. I don’t think it’s fair that a number of players cannot finish the story because the complaints of players who want a challenge in every single thing in the game that is not group content has ruined it for them. There are plenty of challenges to be found in vet arenas, group dungeon HMs, and trial HMs, and IA.

This is what happened to me in High Isle. Except I died about 8 or 9 or 10 times.... I don't even know how many times it took me now. I finally had to get up at an UNGODLY hour (when I could only hope not many people were online on my particular sat beam) to get past him. The problem (outside of my physical limitations) is that the "helper" stuff has to be clicked ASAP, and with my lag I just wasn't able to utilize the NPC helper. I lucked out finally, managing to squeak through after so many tries I really just wanted to give it up.

I've never done another story quest since. And I guess that's how it will be now going forward. Sad, because that's what I really love....

I fully agree with your second paragraph....

SkaiFaith

To players who struggle with these final fights: would you be ok if there was a system in place that lowered substantially the difficulty of the fight each time you died?

This way players that want it harder could still not get bored - I ask because when I started the game I died several times against Mannimarco until the point the fight became easy enough for me to pass it like a walk, and I appreciated that, I was not disappointed in the game but the exact opposite!

Would you like a similar solution?

Treeshka

SkaiFaith wrote: »

To players who struggle with these final fights: would you be ok if there was a system in place that lowered substantially the difficulty of the fight each time you died?

This way players that want it harder could still not get bored - I ask because when I started the game I died several times against Mannimarco until the point the fight became easy enough for me to pass it like a walk, and I appreciated that, I was not disappointed in the game but the exact opposite!

Would you like a similar solution?

It should be like that yes. If i remember right there is a similar thing during Werewolf quest but i could be totally wrong on this.

ChaoticWings3

This is just a thought from me but I think a buff/debuff system from a shrine placed in towns could probably be implemented for both kinds of players finding the content too hard or too easy. Essentially the idea behind it would adjust the scaling of the overland so if you wanted it a bit harder the level would be adjusted to around a level or 2 in the scaling algorithm or vice versa if you wanted it easier. You could even reward players that do the harder content by giving more gold, better chances at higher grade equipment, or unique collectibles for the zone that they are doing the harder content in but those that struggle with the content could potentially set the difficulty to a couple of levels under their level making difficult encounters a bit easier. I would suspect a limit would have to be made to not make the content impossible for the highest level or too easy for the easiest level (so we don't have players one shotting every enemy). I think the easier difficulty should only adjust the players received dmg instead of both receiving and output dmg. While the harder difficulties could adjust both.

This is just a thought though. I don't know if something like this is being considered but I think others wouldn't mind a system like this.

TaSheen

SkaiFaith wrote: »

To players who struggle with these final fights: would you be ok if there was a system in place that lowered substantially the difficulty of the fight each time you died?

This way players that want it harder could still not get bored - I ask because when I started the game I died several times against Mannimarco until the point the fight became easy enough for me to pass it like a walk, and I appreciated that, I was not disappointed in the game but the exact opposite!

Would you like a similar solution?

That would help immensely, yes. IIRC, even though the dragon in N Elsweyr probably killed me 20 times, he didn't get all his HP back in between attempts. So yeah, after dying and dying and dying I did finally "win". Still was the most miserable experience in my entire gaming life....

SilverBride

The real solution is to stop making these Bosses increasingly difficult with every new chapter. Then go back and adjust the ones already affected to be more in line with how they used to be. Then lose the code for giving these Bosses multiple invulnerable phases... please.

Pevey

I agree that making these end-of-story bosses more difficult for everyone was not the way to provide increased story-line difficulty for those of us who want it.

Ingenon

In many single player games the final boss fight is epic and the hardest content. ZOS developers are giving new ESO players what they would be used to from playing other games.

However, in many single player games the difficulty slider can be adjusted to easy if someone gets frustrated after dying many multiple times to the final boss.

Not an easy problem for ZOS developers, finding the balance so that the final boss fight is epic, but not too hard for everyone to complete.

Pevey

These story bosses are solo instances. ZOS could add difficulty levels if they wanted to.

This is a different technical challenge from providing overland difficulty options. Overland is shared. Story boss instances are like dungeons, which themselves already have multiple difficulty modes (normal, vet, hm).

Juomuuri

Bear with me, this is a long post about my experiences with the game's story bosses.

I started ESO in 2016 after One Tamriel came out, and I remember being really bad at the game. I had only started playing PC games in 2014 since before that I hadn't had enough wealth to obtain a PC that could run games, so naturally I was a struggler. I still remember how hard Molag Bal was, and how much I struggled with Orsinium and Morrowind final bosses. But the more I played and the more familiar I became with PC gaming, I actually found myself improving! And that's no small feat since I have slow reflexes due to brain damage, my brain can't send commands to my limbs fast enough most of the time. But despite this, I adapted, learned more about the game's various combat mechanics and turned into a mid tier player from a casual.

For example, I remember how extremely hard the Orsinium final boss was, where you fight two characters (not saying who to not spoil anything), I died so many times and was barely able to beat them. This was in 2017. I played through Orsinium again this spring on my tankplar orc who I had given a "questing build" which is not with the armory, but with his tank attributes, dual wield and medium armor, using what I call "stamplar lite", one bar with jabs and other stuff. And I got to the final boss, on this non-optimized build. The fight is still kinda tough due to some undodgeable mechanics, but I beat it in one go. Felt very satisfying.

Other example is Molag Bal - I beat him first in 2017, and then replayed the main quest in 2023 I think? And it was so easy I couldn't believe it, I think it took me like 3 minutes to go through the whole fight on my magblade. I destroyed him! Literally! It was so cool.

Now onto the newer fights. I have Tamriel Hero and that anniversary skin, and I've done all of these questlines on my main, who is a nightblade. (He's my first character, my crafter, quester, antiquity digger etc. and I run a solo build on him which I also use in arenas etc.) So naturally, I've done every single final story boss on a nightblade. He's actually super sturdy since I build him like a tank (he's actually also a tankblade, who is never played with full 64 stamina). I think the last boss I actually had some trouble with was Summerset's final boss. Elsweyr and Dragonhold bosses were tough, but not too difficult, at this point I had began my shift from casual to mid tier player. Then Greymoor and Markarth... Greymoor's final boss is sooo easy, Markarth's final boss was moderately tough but really cool! Blackwood and Deadlands had joke bosses basically, there was no sense of threat or anything, very boring and dull. Then High Isle... it's very easy (for me), the boss can be killed in the matter of a few minutes, without even finishing his monologue. Firesong's final boss is kinda rough due to a glitch which I don't know if it's still there, but a really cool fight in any case. I can see why people would struggle with this one (same with Markarth's final boss). Then onto Necrom. The final boss there is VERY glitchy, the two times I played through the story had the same problem with a certain NPC's synergies not showing up properly. Still beat it, had too much health and was super boring. Now to Gold Road: the longest and most boring fight I've ever played in this game, I was starting to fall asleep towards the end... It has lots of mechanics going on so I totally get why people can find it difficult. SO many things at once! Invulnerability phases are boring and annoying...

Conclusion:
When I look back at my history as a casual player, I 100% see the problem described by many questers in this thread. I'd be happy to see ZOS implement a system where after you die, the boss gets easier each time (as suggested by others here). This way anyone can beat these bosses and not get locked out of story content. They could also add a "slow reflexes" mode for people who need it, so the synergies etc could stay up for longer. Maybe even the difficulty slider someone mentioned? It's not a leaderboard/rewards adjacent stuff so I don't see why they couldn't add it... Just for the bosses.

AzuraFan

Ingenon wrote: »

In many single player games the final boss fight is epic and the hardest content. ZOS developers are giving new ESO players what they would be used to from playing other games.

However, in many single player games the difficulty slider can be adjusted to easy if someone gets frustrated after dying many multiple times to the final boss.

Putting the assumption that everyone playing ESO plays single-player games aside, it's not the same. In a single-player game, you start out with nothing - the most basic skill (or skills(s)), crap gear, etc. As you progress through the game, you get vastly more powerful, so by the time you get to the epic end boss, you have what you need to beat it.

In ESO, players who start a zone main quest might be starting a new character. In which case, in my experience, doing all the main and side quest hubs will usually bring you to level 17 or 18. No champion points. Still in low gear. If you're not playing a new character, and you have a bunch of champion points and gear, you won't become more powerful by playing the main quest. You might gain a few champion points, but you're pretty much where you were when you started.

So it's a completely different situation than what a player experiences in an SP game, where you essentially go from a weakling to a god. In ESO, you might have characters who are only level 17 or so coming up against the final story boss. Or you have players whose gear and skills and champion points haven't changed much at all from what they started with.

I agree that in SP-games, the difficulty slider helps if you can't defeat the final boss. I've used it a few times myself.

notyuu

If by insane you mean Insanely tedious due to all the immunity phases, then yes, otherwise... Huh?

Pevey

Juomuuri wrote: »

Bear with me, this is a long post about my experiences with the game's story bosses.

I started ESO in 2016 after One Tamriel came out, and I remember being really bad at the game. I had only started playing PC games in 2014 since before that I hadn't had enough wealth to obtain a PC that could run games, so naturally I was a struggler. I still remember how hard Molag Bal was, and how much I struggled with Orsinium and Morrowind final bosses. But the more I played and the more familiar I became with PC gaming, I actually found myself improving! And that's no small feat since I have slow reflexes due to brain damage, my brain can't send commands to my limbs fast enough most of the time. But despite this, I adapted, learned more about the game's various combat mechanics and turned into a mid tier player from a casual.

For example, I remember how extremely hard the Orsinium final boss was, where you fight two characters (not saying who to not spoil anything), I died so many times and was barely able to beat them. This was in 2017. I played through Orsinium again this spring on my tankplar orc who I had given a "questing build" which is not with the armory, but with his tank attributes, dual wield and medium armor, using what I call "stamplar lite", one bar with jabs and other stuff. And I got to the final boss, on this non-optimized build. The fight is still kinda tough due to some undodgeable mechanics, but I beat it in one go. Felt very satisfying.

Other example is Molag Bal - I beat him first in 2017, and then replayed the main quest in 2023 I think? And it was so easy I couldn't believe it, I think it took me like 3 minutes to go through the whole fight on my magblade. I destroyed him! Literally! It was so cool.

Now onto the newer fights. I have Tamriel Hero and that anniversary skin, and I've done all of these questlines on my main, who is a nightblade. (He's my first character, my crafter, quester, antiquity digger etc. and I run a solo build on him which I also use in arenas etc.) So naturally, I've done every single final story boss on a nightblade. He's actually super sturdy since I build him like a tank (he's actually also a tankblade, who is never played with full 64 stamina). I think the last boss I actually had some trouble with was Summerset's final boss. Elsweyr and Dragonhold bosses were tough, but not too difficult, at this point I had began my shift from casual to mid tier player. Then Greymoor and Markarth... Greymoor's final boss is sooo easy, Markarth's final boss was moderately tough but really cool! Blackwood and Deadlands had joke bosses basically, there was no sense of threat or anything, very boring and dull. Then High Isle... it's very easy (for me), the boss can be killed in the matter of a few minutes, without even finishing his monologue. Firesong's final boss is kinda rough due to a glitch which I don't know if it's still there, but a really cool fight in any case. I can see why people would struggle with this one (same with Markarth's final boss). Then onto Necrom. The final boss there is VERY glitchy, the two times I played through the story had the same problem with a certain NPC's synergies not showing up properly. Still beat it, had too much health and was super boring. Now to Gold Road: the longest and most boring fight I've ever played in this game, I was starting to fall asleep towards the end... It has lots of mechanics going on so I totally get why people can find it difficult. SO many things at once! Invulnerability phases are boring and annoying...

Conclusion:
When I look back at my history as a casual player, I 100% see the problem described by many questers in this thread. I'd be happy to see ZOS implement a system where after you die, the boss gets easier each time (as suggested by others here). This way anyone can beat these bosses and not get locked out of story content. They could also add a "slow reflexes" mode for people who need it, so the synergies etc could stay up for longer. Maybe even the difficulty slider someone mentioned? It's not a leaderboard/rewards adjacent stuff so I don't see why they couldn't add it... Just for the bosses.

I would consider the primary factor being that you got a lot better at the game just from playing it more. Some people do and some do not. Serena Williams if she had never played tennis would not be great at it. Practicing made her great at it. On the other hand, I could play tennis every day of my waking life, and I would never be great at it. There has to be potential and experience.

The first story quest I played far enough into to get to a major boss was Summerset. (I played during Beta but then stopped and didn't come back until right before Summerset was released.) I found B'Kora? (the slug boss in the mind trap place) to be extremely difficult. I died over and over. No one could help me or show me how to kill it because it was solo. I could probably kill that boss in a few seconds now on the same character. The main thing that changed was my experience playing the game.