Minor Breach : Weapon/Spell Damage ratio

AvidNecro

I am googling with no luck, so I figured I would ask here. Does anyone know the ratio of damage to minor breach? Essentially I am trying to figure out how much weapon and spell damage equates to the penetration value of minor breach (reduce Physical and Spell Resistance by 2974). Is there a way to calculate that? Please and thank you in advance.

Avid Necro...

FriedEggSandwich

Someone might know the maths behind it, but the only way I can think of is with the uesp build editor. It will tell you effective spell/weapon damage in the character stats. So you could then add/remove the minor breach in the build editor to see how it changes the effective power.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor

albertberku

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/489637/calculating-increase-in-damage-from-weapon-damage

According to this thread i would say around 200 weapon/spell dmg.

Djennku

Weapon/spell damage and penetration are two separate stats. You might want tolook at calculatinghow much pen/resistance stripping you need to completely remove the resistance buff enemies have. Most PVE enemies are capped at 18200 resists, so you'd need to factor in enough pen you need including your group's (de)buffs. PvP is another matter entirely.

With all the penetration buffs/debuffs in game atm, most dps just need 3-5k pen or less to reach that cap. Any more and you are wasting points that could be used for boosting your toon in other areas.

Aces-High-82

Minor breach equates roughly 5% damage increase. Say you have eg 5k damage with buffs it would take 250 damage to ~equal the increase provided by the additional pen.

Zodiarkslayer

There is no definitive answer! Anyone claiming this pen value equates to that amount of weapon damage is wrong. There are so many factors to be considered.

It depends on the armor value of the target and your own penetration value and your own weapon/spell damage.

Like peviously mentioned. Armor has a cap of 18200 for Boss monsters. Trash mobs have 9100.
The way armor works is that, in conjunction with penetration, it forms a multiplier to reduce your damage. 500 armor ~ 1% damage reduction.
Sometimes Bosses have unique DR buffs, that complicate the matter even further.

Also WD/SD is non linear in its effect on damage. WD/SD gives diminishing returns the higher it gets. Which is why trial groups seek out flat bonuses like berserk and slayer to increase damage efficiently.

And at this point we still haven't talked about the case where the remaining monster armor is less than the breach debuff.

Urzigurumash

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

There is no definitive answer! Anyone claiming this pen value equates to that amount of weapon damage is wrong. There are so many factors to be considered.

It depends on the armor value of the target and your own penetration value and your own weapon/spell damage.

Like peviously mentioned. Armor has a cap of 18200 for Boss monsters. Trash mobs have 9100.
The way armor works is that, in conjunction with penetration, it forms a multiplier to reduce your damage. 500 armor ~ 1% damage reduction.
Sometimea Bosses have unique DR buffs, that complicate the matter even further.

Also WD/SD is non linear in its effect on damage. WD/SD gives diminishing returns the higher it gets. Wgich is why trisl groups seek out flat bonuses like berserk and slayer to increase damage efficiently.

And at this point we still haven't talked about the case where the remaining monster armor is less than the debuff.

How much WD is 1% Damage Done depends on your base WD and the co-efficient of any given skill/effect, but for Armor vs Damage Taken, (in PvP) isn't it close enough to say that Minor Breach is 4.506%, if 33000 Armor is 50% and every 660 is 1%? Remove a 0 for Crit Damage vs Impen: 66 Impen = 1% Crit Resist.

Putatively 6600 Crit Resist does not confer 100% less Crit Damage Taken, even if it were achievable, but past 3300 Impen it does continue to reduce Crit Damage Taken, unlike Armor past an unpenetrated 33000.

Zodiarkslayer

Urzigurumash wrote: »

How much WD is 1% Damage Done depends on your base WD and the co-efficient of any given skill/effect, but for Armor vs Damage Taken, (in PvP) isn't it close enough to say that Minor Breach is 4.506%, if 33000 Armor is 50% and every 660 is 1%? Remove a 0 for Crit Damage vs Impen: 66 Impen = 1% Crit Resist.

Putatively 6600 Crit Resist does not confer 100% less Crit Damage Taken, even if it were achievable, but past 3300 Impen it does continue to reduce Crit Damage Taken, unlike Armor past an unpenetrated 33000.

Good point! I hadn't even thought about the different coefficients of the abilities.

But we keep coming back to the discussion of subtraction vs division.
A flat substraction can have different outcomes, based on the number you subtract from.
So the only definitive answer is: It depends!

And it is interesting to know that in PvP the reference level is 66 and not 50, like in PvE. As in an entirely different base number for the damage formula.
This is why the required armor for 1% reduction is 660 and not 500.
The 66 is a legacy thing from the original player character system where you didn't have Champion Points, but Veteran Levels, I think they were called.
Basically "lvl50CP160" is interpreted by the engine as lvl66.

Urzigurumash

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

A flat substraction can have different outcomes, based on the number you subtract from.
So the only definitive answer is: It depends

Depends whether it's trash/boss/player, but other than that, there's an absolute ratio between Pen and Damage Taken, unless you're overpenetrating.

It doesn't matter from what number you subtract, unless you overpenetrate. 660 Pen = 1% Damage Taken.

Right?

FriedEggSandwich

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

A flat substraction can have different outcomes, based on the number you subtract from.
So the only definitive answer is: It depends

Depends whether it's trash/boss/player, but other than that, there's an absolute ratio between Pen and Damage Taken, unless you're overpenetrating.

It doesn't matter from what number you subtract, unless you overpenetrate. 660 Pen = 1% Damage Taken.

Right?

Penetration is how much of their armour "your damage" ignores. So it does depend what your damage is like to begin with. On the uesp build editor, adding minor breach to a naked build adds about 100 effective power, but on my personal build adding minor breach gives just over 500 effective power.

SkaraMinoc

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Also WD/SD is non linear in its effect on damage. WD/SD gives diminishing returns the higher it gets. Which is why trial groups seek out flat bonuses like berserk and slayer to increase damage efficiently.

This is correct but I wanted to clarify.

WD/SD produces a linear value of damage but the % damage increase goes down the more WD/SD you already have.

Take Crystal Fragments for example. Assuming 30k MaxStat, every 1000 WD/SD you add will give a linear +1122.621 damage before rounding.

https://esoitem.uesp.net/viewSkillCoef.php?abilityid=47569
0.106915 MaxStat + 1.12261 MaxPower

5k WD/SD: (30000 * 0.106915) + (5000 * 1.122621) = 8820.555
6k WD/SD: (30000 * 0.106915) + (6000 * 1.122621) = 9943.176 (+1122.621 or 12.727%)
7k WD/SD: (30000 * 0.106915) + (7000 * 1.122621) = 11065.797 (+1122.621 or 11.29%)
8k WD/SD: (30000 * 0.106915) + (8000 * 1.122621) = 12188.418 (+1122.621 or 10.145%)
9k WD/SD: (30000 * 0.106915) + (9000 * 1.122621) = 13311.039 (+1122.621 or 9.21%)
10k WD/SD: (30000 * 0.106915) + (10000 * 1.122621) = 14433.66 (+1122.621 or 8.433%)

SkaraMinoc

Here's an example where we convert Minor Breach to WD/SD using Crystal Fragments against a trial boss.

7k WD/SD, 25k MaxStat

((25000 * 0.106915) + (7000 * 1.122621)) * (1-((18200)/660)/100) = 7627
((25000 * 0.106915) + (7000 * 1.122621)) * (1-((18200-2974)/660)/100) = 8101

Here's the equation to solve for WD/SD: ((25000 * 0.106915) + (x* 1.122621)) * (1-((18200)/660)/100) = 8101

Solving for x, Minor Breach (2974) is equivalent to 583 WD/SD when you already have 7k WD/SD and 25k MaxStat, and no other damage modifiers/resistances other than trial boss 18200 resist. That's 583 WD/SD after Brutality/Sorcery.

It highly depends on the ability coefficients, damage modifers, and damage mitigation of your target. As stated by others, it's not a static conversion from penetration to WD/SD.

If you only have 5k WD/SD and 25k MaxStat then Minor Breach is equivalent to 457 WD/SD after Brutality/Sorcery.

Urzigurumash

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

A flat substraction can have different outcomes, based on the number you subtract from.
So the only definitive answer is: It depends

Depends whether it's trash/boss/player, but other than that, there's an absolute ratio between Pen and Damage Taken, unless you're overpenetrating.

It doesn't matter from what number you subtract, unless you overpenetrate. 660 Pen = 1% Damage Taken.

Right?

Penetration is how much of their armour "your damage" ignores. So it does depend what your damage is like to begin with. On the uesp build editor, adding minor breach to a naked build adds about 100 effective power, but on my personal build adding minor breach gives just over 500 effective power.

I'm not sure what Effective Power means, my point was that Pen is easy to relate to Damage Done, like Berserk or Malacath, at 660 = 1% against a 33k Armor Cap Target. No other numbers are needed for this comparison (other than is the target trash/boss/player, i.e. which Armor Cap, i.e. how much Armor mitigates 50% for the target).

I'm not 100% sure that's exactly true but that's what I meant. If it's true then Malacath with No Breach should hit just about the same as No Malacath and both Breaches against a player. Against an 18.2k dummy, Malacath should be the same as just Major Breach (at 1% = 364). Testing on a 18.2k dummy suggests this is correct.

Just pointing that out, Penetration has a simple and easily predictable effect. Nothing whatsoever to do with Weapon Damage.

Urzigurumash

If that makes Malacath sound OP, that in PvP it basically gives you 10k Pen, it also gives the Target 3300 Impen.

Urzigurumash

@SkaraMinoc 's math there hints at one of the rules of this game, the most efficient builds are actually the most balanced builds, wouldn't you all agree? You get more return for your investment the more you spread it around. Or in other words, every new bonus weakens the effect of every old bonus.

When I'm torn between two different stats that's how I usually decide. I'm a scrub tho.

FriedEggSandwich

Urzigurumash wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

A flat substraction can have different outcomes, based on the number you subtract from.
So the only definitive answer is: It depends

Depends whether it's trash/boss/player, but other than that, there's an absolute ratio between Pen and Damage Taken, unless you're overpenetrating.

It doesn't matter from what number you subtract, unless you overpenetrate. 660 Pen = 1% Damage Taken.

Right?

Penetration is how much of their armour "your damage" ignores. So it does depend what your damage is like to begin with. On the uesp build editor, adding minor breach to a naked build adds about 100 effective power, but on my personal build adding minor breach gives just over 500 effective power.

I'm not sure what Effective Power means, my point was that Pen is easy to relate to Damage Done, like Berserk or Malacath, at 660 = 1% against a 33k Armor Cap Target. No other numbers are needed for this comparison (other than is the target trash/boss/player, i.e. which Armor Cap, i.e. how much Armor mitigates 50% for the target).

I'm not 100% sure that's exactly true but that's what I meant. If it's true then Malacath with No Breach should hit just about the same as No Malacath and both Breaches against a player. Against an 18.2k dummy, Malacath should be the same as just Major Breach (at 1% = 364). Testing on a 18.2k dummy suggests this is correct.

Just pointing that out, Penetration has a simple and easily predictable effect. Nothing whatsoever to do with Weapon Damage.

Yeah "effective power" is a stat made up by the build editor, and is fairly meaningless outside of it. If I understand it correctly "effective power" is an aggregation of your power, expressed as weapon/spell damage. So it's the spell/weapon damage you would need to match the damage output of the build, if you stripped it of all other stat increases and buffs. So if your build has 11000 effective power, it would be like giving a naked build 11k spell/weapon damage. At the very least it's a potentially useful reference point while comparing builds in the build editor.

I have dyscalculia, so my brain output flatlines when I see an equation, but I think we might be making the same point in different ways.

edit: typo

Urzigurumash

Ah yes that makes sense, I never was sure what Build Editor meant there, that's quite logical. Thank you for explaining.

All I was saying is that Penetration works to the same magnitude for every skill, spec, etc. It's part of the more simplistic "Damage subtracted from the Target's HP", compared to Weapon Damage's role in the complicated "Resources converted to Damage coming from the Caster".

So look all my testing says this is quite right, 660 Pen = 1% Damage Done against a Player, 364 Pen = 1% Damage Done against a Dummy.

But, why on Nirn, o Build Editor Technician, or whomsoever might understand things better than me, did Damage Done Bonuses began appearing in Tooltips some time circa 2020 or 2021? Shouldn't I only see this Bonus in Combat Text, not Tooltips? I don't understand it at all. Only thing I can fathom is that it's a bug, not even sure they all still do it actually. I recall the old Destro passive began appearing at an earlier date than Malacath, not sure about Berserk. Minutiae perhaps but it seems to challenge the bulk of "Player Science" regarding this math.

Vaqual

Very nice answers guys, now just give weighted contributions based on buff uptimes, trigger conditions and target density. Then correct the value for resource efficiency and opportunity cost and we have a beautiful, clear cut answer for OP.

Urzigurumash

Ha right. It's close to infinitely complex in a PvP environment, and seemingly so in new/unpracticed PvE. But you know. Navigate according to best available information, produce best available information from the best available data, collect data according to the best available measurements. And so on