Awful PvP

HoffmannTheBest

There is no balance in PvP, not at all.

To have balance, you need to introduce a cooldown time for skills, as is done in all normal PvP games, and not who can outspam whom faster.

HoffmannTheBest

For PvP to be really interesting and balanced, the combat system needs to be completely redesigned from scratch. What we have now is not suitable for normal PvP.

TechMaybeHic

Combat is actually very good. The game you want just isnt this one.

Ren_TheRedFox

@TechMaybeHic I'm sry but I have to disagree on that one ... the combat is awful, imbalanced and laggy ... the only reason why people still play eso PvP is because of the uniqueness of the combat style ... not because it's good ...

TechMaybeHic

Ren_TheRedFox wrote: »

@TechMaybeHic I'm sry but I have to disagree on that one ... the combat is awful, imbalanced and laggy ... the only reason why people still play eso PvP is because of the uniqueness of the combat style ... not because it's good ...

Balance and lag are not the basis of the combat system. The design is fine. The support is lacking

Casul

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Ren_TheRedFox wrote: »

@TechMaybeHic I'm sry but I have to disagree on that one ... the combat is awful, imbalanced and laggy ... the only reason why people still play eso PvP is because of the uniqueness of the combat style ... not because it's good ...

Balance and lag are not the basis of the combat system. The design is fine. The support is lacking

Agreed, the combat is what kept me for so many years. Me and my friend group only just recently left due to the ongoing balance issues and bleeding ears from tarnished nightmare.

WaywardArgonian

Go play games that have cooldowns if that's what you want.

valenwood_vegan

Might be worth taking a look their combat core values as part of considering whether eso is a good match: https://elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/63417

It's unlikely that they will suddenly change course and add cooldowns or radically change the combat in a ten year old game.

Bugs, balance, and lag issues are of course something else entirely and should absolutely receive their attention.

Major_Mangle

ESO does have issues with its PvP, but how the core combat works in terms of global cooldowns ain´t one of them.

CameraBeardThePirate

HoffmannTheBest wrote: »

There is no balance in PvP, not at all.

To have balance, you need to introduce a cooldown time for skills, as is done in all normal PvP games, and not who can outspam whom faster.

You literally can't "outspam" someone. The Global Cooldown is 1 second. At most, you can cast abilities once per second.

Urzigurumash

HoffmannTheBest wrote: »

For PvP to be really interesting and balanced, the combat system needs to be completely redesigned from scratch. What we have now is not suitable for normal PvP.

This is an absurd thing to say

Reminiscent of what so many say about Necro. And what some used to say about DK! Seems changing just a few numbers can take a class from the bottom to the top.

Sylosi

You don't need cooldowns, there are plenty of games where skills don't have cooldowns. However what they typically have is some mechanism to stop the brainless, low skill spamming of skills without consequence and the problem with ESO is that mechanism this game was designed with (your Magicka and Stamina pools) has not worked in any meaningful sense for most of the game.

Then in ESO that is made worse because in contrast to nearly every PvP game (and the other MMO whose version of Cyrodiil was far more successful) you have silly amounts of healing in ESO, which combines very badly with the ability to spam skills without any meaningful consequence and makes for awful PvP. Just go watch two good players fight in a decent fighting game then watch the 15 min snoozefest when two "good" players 1v1 in Cyrodiil (a fine example of how "good" the PvP is in this game).

There are many, many things wrong with the PvP in ESO and some of that is aspects of the combat being poorly designed, but lack of cooldowns in itself is not one of those things.

CatoUnchained

HoffmannTheBest wrote: »

There is no balance in PvP, not at all.

To have balance, you need to introduce a cooldown time for skills, as is done in all normal PvP games, and not who can outspam whom faster.

The PvP is the best ever created, or at least was when ZOS made the investments to keep performance good.

HoffmannTheBest

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

HoffmannTheBest wrote: »

There is no balance in PvP, not at all.

To have balance, you need to introduce a cooldown time for skills, as is done in all normal PvP games, and not who can outspam whom faster.

You literally can't "outspam" someone. The Global Cooldown is 1 second. At most, you can cast abilities once per second.

If you have less stamina, mana - you will not outspam someone who has more.

HoffmannTheBest

Sylosi wrote: »

You don't need cooldowns, there are plenty of games where skills don't have cooldowns. However what they typically have is some mechanism to stop the brainless, low skill spamming of skills without consequence and the problem with ESO is that mechanism this game was designed with (your Magicka and Stamina pools) has not worked in any meaningful sense for most of the game.

Then in ESO that is made worse because in contrast to nearly every PvP game (and the other MMO whose version of Cyrodiil was far more successful) you have silly amounts of sustain in ESO, which combines very badly with the ability to spam skills without any meaningful consequence and makes for awful PvP. Just go watch two good players fight in a decent fighting game then watch the 15 min snoozefest when two "good" players 1v1 in Cyrodiil (a fine example of how "good" the PvP is in this game).

There are many, many things wrong with the PvP in ESO and some of that is aspects of the combat being poorly designed, but lack of cooldowns in itself is not one of those things.

Spam abilities should do little damage, and abilities that do more damage and have a long animation should have a cooldown. For example: a two-handed sword's circular strike should do more damage, but at the same time should have a cooldown of 5-6 seconds. Not 2000 damage, but 4000-5000 damage and a cooldown of 5-6 seconds

Spamming abilities of weapons in both hands do 2500 damage and apply bleeding, while you can spam this ability. This ability should have less damage, about the same as one of the possible upgrades to Warden's ultimate, when Frost Whirlwind deals 800 damage, but slows the enemy. And this is the ultimate.

HoffmannTheBest

Major_Mangle wrote: »

ESO does have issues with its PvP, but how the core combat works in terms of global cooldowns ain´t one of them.

There are two ways to rework it:

1. Increase weapon damage, add cooldown to abilities and reduce damage to spam abilities.

2. Reduce damage to abilities or increase the consumption of abilities several times, so that. and most importantly - reduce damage to abilities that deal stream damage, like Arcanist's rays.

There is also a third option - the ability to knock down ANY ability by stunning the enemy.

TechMaybeHic

HoffmannTheBest wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

ESO does have issues with its PvP, but how the core combat works in terms of global cooldowns ain´t one of them.

There are two ways to rework it:

1. Increase weapon damage, add cooldown to abilities and reduce damage to spam abilities.

2. Reduce damage to abilities or increase the consumption of abilities several times, so that. and most importantly - reduce damage to abilities that deal stream damage, like Arcanist's rays.

There is also a third option - the ability to knock down ANY ability by stunning the enemy.

They already have recourse timers for hard CC like knock downs via immunity. Most of the abilities that can be spammed ARE lower damage, and lower still if they are AOE. The hard hitting abilities are generally delayed, require a build up, or require a random "proc" to have happen. Or, in the case of Ultimates; need to build up different level of resources.

Everything you mention is there, its just had a lack of attention to balance on a PvP level for a long time

CameraBeardThePirate

HoffmannTheBest wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

HoffmannTheBest wrote: »

There is no balance in PvP, not at all.

To have balance, you need to introduce a cooldown time for skills, as is done in all normal PvP games, and not who can outspam whom faster.

You literally can't "outspam" someone. The Global Cooldown is 1 second. At most, you can cast abilities once per second.

If you have less stamina, mana - you will not outspam someone who has more.

You don't need a large magicka or stamina pool to not run out of resources, you need to build in sustain, whether through recovery or cost reduction. If you die because you ran out of resources, you didn't get "outspammed", your build is bad and you ran out of resources because you lack sustain.

Bushido2513

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

HoffmannTheBest wrote: »

There is no balance in PvP, not at all.

To have balance, you need to introduce a cooldown time for skills, as is done in all normal PvP games, and not who can outspam whom faster.

You literally can't "outspam" someone. The Global Cooldown is 1 second. At most, you can cast abilities once per second.

You can't do it by the rules of the game but you can basically have what appears to be this by the lag and bugs of the game.

Recently I died out of nowhere due to all the skills hitting at once or the server deciding they did. I also get situations the the gcd is strict and others where it seems to let me have another action before the enemy can do so. The idea of combat and the server execution of that idea can definitely vary in this game.

CameraBeardThePirate

Bushido2513 wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

HoffmannTheBest wrote: »

There is no balance in PvP, not at all.

To have balance, you need to introduce a cooldown time for skills, as is done in all normal PvP games, and not who can outspam whom faster.

You literally can't "outspam" someone. The Global Cooldown is 1 second. At most, you can cast abilities once per second.

You can't do it by the rules of the game but you can basically have what appears to be this by the lag and bugs of the game.

Recently I died out of nowhere due to all the skills hitting at once or the server deciding they did. I also get situations the the gcd is strict and others where it seems to let me have another action before the enemy can do so. The idea of combat and the server execution of that idea can definitely vary in this game.

Skills can hit at once for reasons other than lag.

Delayed burst skills, projectile speed, channels, and light attacks all interact with the GCD in different ways.

Light attacks are on their own separate cooldown.

Synergies don't obey the GCD at all.

For channels and cast times, the GCD starts at the beginning of the cast time, meaning another ability can be queued to cast immediately after with a reduced delay (or even non-existent delay depending on the cast time).

Things like Shalks, Blastbones, and Curse are self explanatory.

Things with long travel times may land at the same time as Things with little or no travel time.

Put all of this together: If a sorc casts Fury, Curse, Snipe, Frag, and Streak in that order, everything will land at the same exact time, no lag required. Fury and Curse are delayed, Snipe has a cast time and long projectile travel time, Frag has a travel time, streak is instant. Light attack weave in between all of those for added damage.

Bushido2513

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

HoffmannTheBest wrote: »

There is no balance in PvP, not at all.

To have balance, you need to introduce a cooldown time for skills, as is done in all normal PvP games, and not who can outspam whom faster.

You literally can't "outspam" someone. The Global Cooldown is 1 second. At most, you can cast abilities once per second.

You can't do it by the rules of the game but you can basically have what appears to be this by the lag and bugs of the game.

Recently I died out of nowhere due to all the skills hitting at once or the server deciding they did. I also get situations the the gcd is strict and others where it seems to let me have another action before the enemy can do so. The idea of combat and the server execution of that idea can definitely vary in this game.

Skills can hit at once for reasons other than lag.

Delayed burst skills, projectile speed, channels, and light attacks all interact with the GCD in different ways.

Light attacks are on their own separate cooldown.

Synergies don't obey the GCD at all.

For channels and cast times, the GCD starts at the beginning of the cast time, meaning another ability can be queued to cast immediately after with a reduced delay (or even non-existent delay depending on the cast time).

Things like Shalks, Blastbones, and Curse are self explanatory.

Things with long travel times may land at the same time as Things with little or no travel time.

Put all of this together: If a sorc casts Fury, Curse, Snipe, Frag, and Streak in that order, everything will land at the same exact time, no lag required. Fury and Curse are delayed, Snipe has a cast time and long projectile travel time, Frag has a travel time, streak is instant. Light attack weave in between all of those for added damage.

I'm speaking of something like you hit two no proc frags and my health bar registers the damage seemingly at once. Or more often the death recap that contains back to back spamables you didn't see on screen.

Even better sometimes I kill a player watching as they look like they are not moving or reacting only for them to them jump a bit and register all the damage including back to back spamables at m once.

So again it's not that I can actually do these things at once but it can appear that way sometimes.

HoffmannTheBest

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

HoffmannTheBest wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

ESO does have issues with its PvP, but how the core combat works in terms of global cooldowns ain´t one of them.

There are two ways to rework it:

1. Increase weapon damage, add cooldown to abilities and reduce damage to spam abilities.

2. Reduce damage to abilities or increase the consumption of abilities several times, so that. and most importantly - reduce damage to abilities that deal stream damage, like Arcanist's rays.

There is also a third option - the ability to knock down ANY ability by stunning the enemy.

They already have recourse timers for hard CC like knock downs via immunity. Most of the abilities that can be spammed ARE lower damage, and lower still if they are AOE. The hard hitting abilities are generally delayed, require a build up, or require a random "proc" to have happen. Or, in the case of Ultimates; need to build up different level of resources.

Everything you mention is there, its just had a lack of attention to balance on a PvP level for a long time

2000 damage is dealt by dual weapon attacks. And it's spamming attacks. That's too much.
Other than that, weapons are useless at all. I think abilities should have weapon damage with an attack bonus added. Basically, weapons are just decorations or add-ons for a set to get the full set bonus.

SkaraMinoc

HoffmannTheBest wrote: »

Sylosi wrote: »

You don't need cooldowns, there are plenty of games where skills don't have cooldowns. However what they typically have is some mechanism to stop the brainless, low skill spamming of skills without consequence and the problem with ESO is that mechanism this game was designed with (your Magicka and Stamina pools) has not worked in any meaningful sense for most of the game.

Then in ESO that is made worse because in contrast to nearly every PvP game (and the other MMO whose version of Cyrodiil was far more successful) you have silly amounts of sustain in ESO, which combines very badly with the ability to spam skills without any meaningful consequence and makes for awful PvP. Just go watch two good players fight in a decent fighting game then watch the 15 min snoozefest when two "good" players 1v1 in Cyrodiil (a fine example of how "good" the PvP is in this game).

There are many, many things wrong with the PvP in ESO and some of that is aspects of the combat being poorly designed, but lack of cooldowns in itself is not one of those things.

Spam abilities should do little damage, and abilities that do more damage and have a long animation should have a cooldown.

Those are called Ultimates and they have a cooldown via Ultimate cost. Spammables actually do low damage by themselves. To build up burst damage, you need to combo abilities that have a delay and learn how enchants and status effects work.

CameraBeardThePirate

Bushido2513 wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

HoffmannTheBest wrote: »

There is no balance in PvP, not at all.

To have balance, you need to introduce a cooldown time for skills, as is done in all normal PvP games, and not who can outspam whom faster.

You literally can't "outspam" someone. The Global Cooldown is 1 second. At most, you can cast abilities once per second.

You can't do it by the rules of the game but you can basically have what appears to be this by the lag and bugs of the game.

Recently I died out of nowhere due to all the skills hitting at once or the server deciding they did. I also get situations the the gcd is strict and others where it seems to let me have another action before the enemy can do so. The idea of combat and the server execution of that idea can definitely vary in this game.

Skills can hit at once for reasons other than lag.

Delayed burst skills, projectile speed, channels, and light attacks all interact with the GCD in different ways.

Light attacks are on their own separate cooldown.

Synergies don't obey the GCD at all.

For channels and cast times, the GCD starts at the beginning of the cast time, meaning another ability can be queued to cast immediately after with a reduced delay (or even non-existent delay depending on the cast time).

Things like Shalks, Blastbones, and Curse are self explanatory.

Things with long travel times may land at the same time as Things with little or no travel time.

Put all of this together: If a sorc casts Fury, Curse, Snipe, Frag, and Streak in that order, everything will land at the same exact time, no lag required. Fury and Curse are delayed, Snipe has a cast time and long projectile travel time, Frag has a travel time, streak is instant. Light attack weave in between all of those for added damage.

I'm speaking of something like you hit two no proc frags and my health bar registers the damage seemingly at once. Or more often the death recap that contains back to back spamables you didn't see on screen.

Even better sometimes I kill a player watching as they look like they are not moving or reacting only for them to them jump a bit and register all the damage including back to back spamables at m once.

So again it's not that I can actually do these things at once but it can appear that way sometimes.

You shouldn't really ever use the death recap, as it's both inaccurate and doesn't show things in any sort of time-sensitive order. Two casts of a spammable may be 4 seconds apart but show up right next to each other on the death recap.

The recap also often leaves out the biggest hits of damage you actually took before dying.

If you can, use CMX instead, or another addon such as Recount. The vanilla Death Recap is awful.

Bushido2513

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

HoffmannTheBest wrote: »

There is no balance in PvP, not at all.

To have balance, you need to introduce a cooldown time for skills, as is done in all normal PvP games, and not who can outspam whom faster.

You literally can't "outspam" someone. The Global Cooldown is 1 second. At most, you can cast abilities once per second.

You can't do it by the rules of the game but you can basically have what appears to be this by the lag and bugs of the game.

Recently I died out of nowhere due to all the skills hitting at once or the server deciding they did. I also get situations the the gcd is strict and others where it seems to let me have another action before the enemy can do so. The idea of combat and the server execution of that idea can definitely vary in this game.

Skills can hit at once for reasons other than lag.

Delayed burst skills, projectile speed, channels, and light attacks all interact with the GCD in different ways.

Light attacks are on their own separate cooldown.

Synergies don't obey the GCD at all.

For channels and cast times, the GCD starts at the beginning of the cast time, meaning another ability can be queued to cast immediately after with a reduced delay (or even non-existent delay depending on the cast time).

Things like Shalks, Blastbones, and Curse are self explanatory.

Things with long travel times may land at the same time as Things with little or no travel time.

Put all of this together: If a sorc casts Fury, Curse, Snipe, Frag, and Streak in that order, everything will land at the same exact time, no lag required. Fury and Curse are delayed, Snipe has a cast time and long projectile travel time, Frag has a travel time, streak is instant. Light attack weave in between all of those for added damage.

I'm speaking of something like you hit two no proc frags and my health bar registers the damage seemingly at once. Or more often the death recap that contains back to back spamables you didn't see on screen.

Even better sometimes I kill a player watching as they look like they are not moving or reacting only for them to them jump a bit and register all the damage including back to back spamables at m once.

So again it's not that I can actually do these things at once but it can appear that way sometimes.

You shouldn't really ever use the death recap, as it's both inaccurate and doesn't show things in any sort of time-sensitive order. Two casts of a spammable may be 4 seconds apart but show up right next to each other on the death recap.

The recap also often leaves out the biggest hits of damage you actually took before dying.

If you can, use CMX instead, or another addon such as Recount. The vanilla Death Recap is awful.

Agree on that one but I was more saying that in conjunction with what I see on the screen that is or isn't rendering for me. I mean from a technical perspective it's just going to be that the server is handling x amount of data transactions and trying to synch them with a visual representation to each client. Due to the age and code on these servers it just doesn't always go flawlessly.

Like positional desynch, that's a thing that shouldn't happen but does. I'm saying it can be a similar thing with how and when attacks are reported to the client.

Urzigurumash

HoffmannTheBest wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

HoffmannTheBest wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

ESO does have issues with its PvP, but how the core combat works in terms of global cooldowns ain´t one of them.

There are two ways to rework it:

1. Increase weapon damage, add cooldown to abilities and reduce damage to spam abilities.

2. Reduce damage to abilities or increase the consumption of abilities several times, so that. and most importantly - reduce damage to abilities that deal stream damage, like Arcanist's rays.

There is also a third option - the ability to knock down ANY ability by stunning the enemy.

They already have recourse timers for hard CC like knock downs via immunity. Most of the abilities that can be spammed ARE lower damage, and lower still if they are AOE. The hard hitting abilities are generally delayed, require a build up, or require a random "proc" to have happen. Or, in the case of Ultimates; need to build up different level of resources.

Everything you mention is there, its just had a lack of attention to balance on a PvP level for a long time

2000 damage is dealt by dual weapon attacks. And it's spamming attacks. That's too much.
Other than that, weapons are useless at all. I think abilities should have weapon damage with an attack bonus added. Basically, weapons are just decorations or add-ons for a set to get the full set bonus.

Well said about decorations, but rather than "redesigning from scratch" this issue can be resolved by going back to an earlier time - before the ideas that "class skills should be available for every class in every role AND superior to non-class alternatives" became so popular.

But, Scribing is new, it has only now begun to change combat on console.

edward_frigidhands

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Combat is actually very good. The game you want just isnt this one.

This

edward_frigidhands

Ren_TheRedFox wrote: »

@TechMaybeHic I'm sry but I have to disagree on that one ... the combat is awful, imbalanced and laggy ... the only reason why people still play eso PvP is because of the uniqueness of the combat style ... not because it's good ...

So you want them to change what you believe is the primary reason people play PVP?

Galeriano2

HoffmannTheBest wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

HoffmannTheBest wrote: »

There is no balance in PvP, not at all.

To have balance, you need to introduce a cooldown time for skills, as is done in all normal PvP games, and not who can outspam whom faster.

You literally can't "outspam" someone. The Global Cooldown is 1 second. At most, you can cast abilities once per second.

If you have less stamina, mana - you will not outspam someone who has more.

You will if You're better at managing Your resources than he is.

Alchimiste1

The core mechanics of the game are great.
The direction they are heading towards with hybridization, equalizing everything, and damage procs makes things not as enjoyable as in the past. Unironically, class uniqueness made the game more fun.

StaticWave

HoffmannTheBest wrote: »

There is no balance in PvP, not at all.

To have balance, you need to introduce a cooldown time for skills, as is done in all normal PvP games, and not who can outspam whom faster.

Go play WoW