Give Ice Staves the Piercing Cold treatment, please

BasP

Perhaps this has already been mentioned during the PTS cycle for U43, but just in case it hasn't yet, I think that it would be pretty cool if the buffs that Ice Staves gave would depend on your character's Max Health. While there are obviously players that like using an Ice Staff for tanking, other players would like Ice Staves to be at least semi-viable for damage dealers too. By coupling the Ancient Knowledge passive when wielding an Ice Staff to the amount of Health one has, perhaps both parts of the player base could be satisfied somewhat? I'd say it's worth considering implementing such a change.

Truth be told, I am not sure what damage bonus the Ice Staves should give though. Seeing as Inferno Staves and Lightning Staves both buff two kinds of damage by 12%, it would make sense that the same would go for Ice Staves. But I can't think of anything other than AOE damage, Enchantments, Critical Damage and a generic Damage Done buff myself. That said, some examples of buffs can be found below:

Example 1
If you have less than 35,000 Max Health, Ice Staves increase your damage done with enchantments and area of effects by 12%. If you have 35,000 or more Max Health, Ice Staves reduce the cost of blocking by 36% and increases the amount of damage you block by 20%.

Example 2
If you have less than 35,000 Max Health, Ice Staves increase your damage done and critical damage by 4%. If you have 35,000 or more Max Health, Ice Staves reduce the cost of blocking by 36% and increases the amount of damage you block by 20%.

Do you think such a change would be nice? And if so, what effect would be good to give the Ice Staves?

ESO_Nightingale

Honestly at this point this would be the easiest way to create frost staff dps for not just warden, but everyone. Piercing Cold created the precident. Its time to apply it to the ice staff. Hell, even sword and board. People want to do sword and board dps as well. In terms of what kind of effects I'd hope for crit chance or flat damage scaling. Crit damage or penetration would be horrible.

BasP

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Honestly at this point this would be the easiest way to create frost staff dps for not just warden, but everyone. Piercing Cold created the precident. Its time to apply it to the ice staff. Hell, even sword and board. People want to do sword and board dps as well.

That was my thinking too. Now that Scribing has added more Frost Damage skills to the game, and Wardens don't get a specific damage done bonus with Ice Staves anymore, it would be great if ZOS made Ice Staff DPS more viable for all classes. From a thematic standpoint, I'd like it if my Magcro could wield Ice Staves without hampering myself for example. (I like your thinking about Sword and Board as well, by the way!)

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

In terms of what kind of effects I'd hope for crit chance or flat damage scaling. Crit damage or penetration would be horrible.

Penetration would be horrible indeed. I didn't mention Crit Chance in my post, even though it had crossed my mind, because I figured that would make Ice Staves too good compared to the other staves. But I'd personally like that as well. Considering you can proc Minor Brittle by wielding an Ice Staff, having an increased Crit Chance would be fitting from a gameplay perspective too.

NuarBlack

Crit chance would be the obvious synergy but that may upset the PVE balance too much as some have pointed out. Something similar to Ruffian except more broad, like you do 3% more damage for every negative effect on the target up to 12% or 15%

Other option is make crits proc flat damage to give more damage without running into the crit damage cap.

mmtaniac

This change with Piercing cold is good way to change how some classes work. I would like to see more this kind of changes in regard of abilities too. Sun shield that scale from offensive stats when your hp are lower than 30k or from hp if your hp is higher different buffs when you have low and high hp. It's good thing they made this thing. Off course warden mains dislike it but still it's good thing and they should implement this more in other classes too on some abilities or passives.

TybaltKaine

I don't think Ice Staves need a buff for damage at all. My HA Oakensoul build uses an Ice Staff. I run Sergeants and War Maidens with the Adept stone and have pushed my magic damage. I get a basic heavy attack of 19-20k with my staff. I've seen crits go over 40k.

I play a NB with Frost Explosion (scribed), Unstable Wall of Elements, Concealed Weapon, Swallow Soul, Merciless Resolve and Veil of Blades as the ULT (purely for the Shadow tree passives)

Merciless gives me a nice buff to damage, but I'm not using it to do big damage at all. Most of my fights end with a single HA and swallow soul (which gives me 21k crits most of the time)

This is in DLC PVE content, my wife and I duo all dungeons and I don't do anything to tweak this build.

Yes, 64 Mag, no investment in health or stam at all, this is pure mag damage and it hits pretty hard.

If you are speaking from the perspective of PVP, YMMV. But for PVE content Ice Staff is in a good place if you build for it intentionally.

Lystrad

TybaltKaine wrote: »

I don't think Ice Staves need a buff for damage at all. My HA Oakensoul build uses an Ice Staff. I run Sergeants and War Maidens with the Adept stone and have pushed my magic damage. I get a basic heavy attack of 19-20k with my staff. I've seen crits go over 40k.

Out of curiosity, if it's a heavy attack build why war maidens when it only effects the nightblade abilities? Wouldn't you get more benefit from something that effects your primary damage type like Ysgramor's Birthright or frostbite?

TybaltKaine

Maidens is all magic damage abilities, not just class abilities. Since I'm running pure magic damage skills, it's a net win. Also, easy to acquire. Ysgramor's would be useless for my NB skills. Same with Frostbite.

Edit: This build was started as a "How can I maximize Swallow Soul as a Spammable" and kind of evolved from there, if that helps put it into perspective.

I also like the versatility of being able to switch staff types on the fly if I need to. The build can even rock as a Resto staff build in a pinch.

Lystrad

Oh, I was under the impression maidens only effected the magic damage type specifically, not magic damage across the board. I can definitely see why you'd go for that set if your starting point was trying to maximize swallow soul. I know I've tried to do that often too.

TybaltKaine

You are correct, Maidens is Magic Damage for Abilities only, but it's all abilities, not just class abilities. So as long as the tool tip says "Magic Damage" you are getting a boost. I just don't want to marry myself to Frost specifically and hamstring my abilities in favor of a slightly stronger tooltip for my staff.

I also don't use elemental enchants on my staves, I typically use Absorb Health or Absorb Magicka as those are Magic Damage glyphs and not elemental.

BananaBender

TybaltKaine wrote: »

If you are speaking from the perspective of PVP, YMMV. But for PVE content Ice Staff is in a good place if you build for it intentionally.

The problem is that Ice Staff just doesn't provide any offensive power at all right now. You still get access to Destruction staff skills which is nice, but the passives, Wall of Elements and Elemental Rage are just worse on Ice Staff then they are on the other staves. The Tri Focus and Ancient Knowledge passives are also exclusively defensive while wielding an Ice Staff.

TybaltKaine

I think that depends on your end use case. For a player like me, who likes to solo or duo, having shields and defense is a bonus. I don't think that all three staves need to be carbon copies of each other, and having a defensive staff is a nice thing.

Would I have tied defense to Ice? No. I would have created an Alteration staff line for defensive purposes and used the destruction staves purely for different forms of offense. But, since there is no other staff type for players to use, there needs to be a defensive option for staff users, and Ice got the short straw.

ESO_Nightingale

TybaltKaine wrote: »

I don't think Ice Staves need a buff for damage at all. My HA Oakensoul build uses an Ice Staff. I run Sergeants and War Maidens with the Adept stone and have pushed my magic damage. I get a basic heavy attack of 19-20k with my staff. I've seen crits go over 40k.

I play a NB with Frost Explosion (scribed), Unstable Wall of Elements, Concealed Weapon, Swallow Soul, Merciless Resolve and Veil of Blades as the ULT (purely for the Shadow tree passives)

Merciless gives me a nice buff to damage, but I'm not using it to do big damage at all. Most of my fights end with a single HA and swallow soul (which gives me 21k crits most of the time)

This is in DLC PVE content, my wife and I duo all dungeons and I don't do anything to tweak this build.

Yes, 64 Mag, no investment in health or stam at all, this is pure mag damage and it hits pretty hard.

If you are speaking from the perspective of PVP, YMMV. But for PVE content Ice Staff is in a good place if you build for it intentionally.

this build is far too niche to justify not changing the way the staff works for *every* player to give everyone more options.

Solariken

TBH I hate the concept of basing combat mechanics on an arbitrary amount of HP. I think it's ugly game design.

I also hate the idea of Frost staves being a tanking weapon, they should just stop being lazy and create a new staff for magical tanking (Alteration staff, Illusion staff, whatever) and make Frost a proper DESTRUCTION weapon again.

TybaltKaine

I get that Frost Warden mains want to feel powerful in DD roles, but the reality is that Ice isn't going to change unless and until there is another defensive option for Staves.

It stinks, my go to style is always Ice and Shadow magic. It's what I want to use. But I just don't see it happening in ESO.

NuarBlack

TybaltKaine wrote: »

I don't think Ice Staves need a buff for damage at all. My HA Oakensoul build uses an Ice Staff. I run Sergeants and War Maidens with the Adept stone and have pushed my magic damage. I get a basic heavy attack of 19-20k with my staff. I've seen crits go over 40k.

I play a NB with Frost Explosion (scribed), Unstable Wall of Elements, Concealed Weapon, Swallow Soul, Merciless Resolve and Veil of Blades as the ULT (purely for the Shadow tree passives)

Merciless gives me a nice buff to damage, but I'm not using it to do big damage at all. Most of my fights end with a single HA and swallow soul (which gives me 21k crits most of the time)

This is in DLC PVE content, my wife and I duo all dungeons and I don't do anything to tweak this build.

Yes, 64 Mag, no investment in health or stam at all, this is pure mag damage and it hits pretty hard.

If you are speaking from the perspective of PVP, YMMV. But for PVE content Ice Staff is in a good place if you build for it intentionally.

Not sure how this justifies anything. You would be doing significantly more damage with a lightning or fire staff for sure. I can hit 25k non crit heavies with my DK without using sergeants and Flame staff which then even further buffs burning and my other dots. Lightning would increase your swallow soul by another 12%. Posting a very suboptimal build isn't proving what you think it is.

TybaltKaine

I'm not trying to flex. I'm an old guy with arthritis showing that if you build for Ice you can do enough damage to deal with anything PVE content in the game throws at you.

This isn't about proving anything, just showing that you don't need ridiculous DPS for 90% of game content.

If this post were about score pushing or hard core PVP, I'd have kept it to myself, but the crux of the argument is that ice staves don't do damage, which is demonstrably false, even by a bad player like me.

I get that the power fantasy of the ice staff pales in comparison to the others, but it is still enough damage to do literally anything in the game.

NuarBlack

TybaltKaine wrote: »

I'm not trying to flex. I'm an old guy with arthritis showing that if you build for Ice you can do enough damage to deal with anything PVE content in the game throws at you.

This isn't about proving anything, just showing that you don't need ridiculous DPS for 90% of game content.

If this post were about score pushing or hard core PVP, I'd have kept it to myself, but the crux of the argument is that ice staves don't do damage, which is demonstrably false, even by a bad player like me.

I get that the power fantasy of the ice staff pales in comparison to the others, but it is still enough damage to do literally anything in the game.

It is though. With the changes to Warden in the last patch made frost DDs, who were already barely competitive, not as good and therefore unlikely to be taken into groups trying to do higher tier content. Yeah you can do overland content with SnB or anything. Vet triffectas, not so much. People want Frost mage damage dealers to be viable in all content. Pvp and vet hard modes.

TybaltKaine

Nowhere in the OP's post was there anything said about endgame content. That is a whole different conversation worth having, but it's not what Op was talking about.

Ice staves are plenty viable for the average player doing the average content.

Highwayman

TybaltKaine wrote: »

Nowhere in the OP's post was there anything said about endgame content. That is a whole different conversation worth having, but it's not what Op was talking about.

Ice staves are plenty viable for the average player doing the average content.

To be fair, OP didn't specify at all. You seem to be the one trying to narrow the definition of "viable".

For what it's worth, I otherwise agree with you that this change does not impact the viability of ice staves for duoing normal dlc dungeons.

It is still disappointing for pvp, and various solo/duo endeavors (like vet arenas, IA, and vet dlcs), and probably end game trials too (though I can't speak personally as to the effectiveness of ice wardens there). I will adjust though...

I'd really like a dedicated tanking staff outside the destruction skill line.

BasP

TybaltKaine wrote: »

Nowhere in the OP's post was there anything said about endgame content. That is a whole different conversation worth having, but it's not what Op was talking about.

Ice staves are plenty viable for the average player doing the average content.

While I didn't say anything about endgame content, that was the content I had in mind when I said that "other players would like Ice Staves to be at least semi-viable for DDs". Perhaps I should have clarified that.

I agree with your comment about the defensive Alteration Staff though. Sadly, I don't see ZOS adding that staff to the game anytime soon (if ever...). Hence, I think that making the Ice Staff's bonuses depend on your Max Health would be a decent alternative for the time being.

Solariken wrote: »

TBH I hate the concept of basing combat mechanics on an arbitrary amount of HP. I think it's ugly game design.

I also hate the idea of Frost staves being a tanking weapon, they should just stop being lazy and create a new staff for magical tanking (Alteration staff, Illusion staff, whatever) and make Frost a proper DESTRUCTION weapon again.

If I'm being honest, I agree with your first point, and I'm not too fond of the current implementation of Piercing Cold for Wardens. However, considering the mechanic is already in the game, I figured it could just as well be used to improve the Ice Staff. And if ZOS ever decide to create a new defensive weapon, well, the conditional defensive bonuses could be removed from the Ice Staff passives.

West93

Need ice staff blocking passives for pvp. In the past only with shield you could get such cost reduction/mitigation passives and now we have more alternatives which is good.

Being forced to 1h and shield without alternatives sucks.

Ice staff changes are good they made several years ago (2017 I think?).

ESO_Nightingale

West93 wrote: »

Need ice staff blocking passives for pvp. In the past only with shield you could get such cost reduction/mitigation passives and now we have more alternatives which is good.

Being forced to 1h and shield without alternatives sucks.

Ice staff changes are good they made several years ago (2017 I think?).

If it was based on max hp like piercing cold now is, building a tanky build would keep it as it currently is while also opening it up for dps

Urvoth

West93 wrote: »

Need ice staff blocking passives for pvp. In the past only with shield you could get such cost reduction/mitigation passives and now we have more alternatives which is good.

Being forced to 1h and shield without alternatives sucks.

Ice staff changes are good they made several years ago (2017 I think?).

Also, the problem with the below 35k hp requirement is that 35k is a pretty standard hp amount for many decent PvP builds these days, which could then go up from getting minor toughness from a warden. It would be horrible to have your entire build based around ice damage, end up with a random warden on your team in a bg or near you in Cyro, and then lose all your damage bonuses.

Ice staff defensively should stay as an option, but it would be nice to have it as an offensive option as well, just not with an attached hp trigger.

necro_the_crafter

Add short staves (Wands?) in the game that are one-handed and equipable with shields? And make frost about crit chance/damage. Still dont make any sense from a gamplay perspective why its more effective to block with an ice staff, they all look the same, why Ice different in that regard?. At least add different blocking animation, like chanelling a ward spell in skyrim, but icy, or smth.

Also would be cool If staves interacted with its respective status procs, like boost ancient knowledge by 100(?)% if target is inflicted with respective status, but then ice staff would need something different in there, crit damage?.

Customisible heavy atacks also would be cool, if you could choose witch one do you want, a channel or a single hit.

While we at it swords and greatswodrs also need some love, as for now they are weakest of the class. Im for one would like to see axes bleed returned and crit damage delegated to a swords.

And I wonder if would see a new weapon class at some point: crossbows, unarmed, one handed swords fencing techniques, spears, halberds, two-handed dual-wield...

Urzigurumash

I totally agree this sets a precedent which, if it works, could settle a whole lot of different Power Fantasies and views about them.

Great post and great reply by the venerable elder FrostDen Nightingale.