DEAR ZOS, MAY WE PLEASE HAVE THIS?

tomofhyrule

VvwvenomwvV wrote: »

Because having this tank set might shift the meta, or at least offer the choice of a group buff that would allow people to play a different way.

The only way this would change the meta is if it ended up making a group of 8 Heavy Attack DPS end up doing more damage than other builds, and then we would see all groups require Heavy builds only.

Here are some of the most common tank sets used now, in no particular order:
Lucent Echoes - unique crit damage buff for the whole group
Pearlescent Ward - unique damage buff or resist buff for the whole group
Claw of Yolnakriin - Major Courage (damage buff) for the whole group
Saxhleel Champion - Major Force (crit damage buff) for the whole group
Turning Tide - Major Vulnerability (damage taken debuff) for enemies
Crimson Oath's Rive - unique armor shatter debuff for enemies
Powerful Assault - unique damage buff for the whole group

Notice that those all either buff the whole group, or debuff enemies (which effectively means all group members are doing more damage). No raid lead is going to give up a buff for the whole group for a buff to one specific playstyle, unless the entire group was made up of that specific playstyle.

Again, there is no rule that says you can't bring certain builds into trials. The only people who are putting those restrictions on are other players. And you can always choose to run with people who will accept your builds, or start groups where your build is accepted. And as has been pointed out, heavy builds can do content - I know, we've very recently done some trifectas including Heavy Attack builds in them.

But I will say that I see a touch of irony in the fact that your goal is having build diversity and being able to play your chosen build and not have someone else dictate it for you, and your means to accomplish this is to... dictate that other people have to build themselves specifically to buff you instead of buffing others?

VvwvenomwvV

The tank set is a group buff. If penetration is needed, people could wear light armor, and a sharpened trait weapon. That opens up other things the tanks could wear instead of the sets you listed. One set I suggested was a heavy attack buff set for the group. Also, this affects 4 player content where you might not be getting all of those trial buffs.

Anyway, I would just like to see more people participate in trials / end game content. I thought it would be good for the game. That was the whole idea behind this set.

Necrotech_Master

from a meta perspective wearing light armor is actually a dps loss, because the pen is not really needed that much, nor will a stam based character wear light armor, because it would be horrible for sustain

a single tank wearing tremorscale (~1500) + crimson oath (~3500) + major (~6000)/minor(~3000) breach is already doing about 14k penetration equivalent debuff to enemies, the absolute most pen you need is 18,200, so just running a sharpened weapon is usually enough to be at or over the effective pen cap

the problem is still if its a HA buff set, it only affects players running a HA build, and current HA builds already have enough dps (single target) to be completely able to do vet trials

if people dont want to do trials, they arent likely to start doing trials just because of HA builds

Orbital78

TBH a set like this being reworked to buff HA dmg from a support dps would be more viable than taking up a tank/healer supports slots. https://eso-sets.com/set/rage-of-the-ursauk simply adding the bonus to heavy attack damage along with the empower for group makes would go a long way. Does anyone even use this set?

Necrotech_Master

Orbital78 wrote: »

TBH a set like this being reworked to buff HA dmg from a support dps would be more viable than taking up a tank/healer supports slots. https://eso-sets.com/set/rage-of-the-ursauk simply adding the bonus to heavy attack damage along with the empower for group makes would go a long way. Does anyone even use this set?

nope, because all that one does is grant empower, which most HA builds use oakensoul to do (100% empower uptime)

VvwvenomwvV

I'd like to share a story: Once apon a time during a company meeting, my old boss once said "I could give everyone here a brand new Corvette, and I guarantee you that there would still be some people who complain, one guy would say he doesn't like the color."

Now imagine the boss gets upset and takes the Corvettes away from everyone. Is that fair to those who were happy with their new Corvette?

The point is, if you don't like it, don't use it, sell it to a vendor or something, but let's not ruin it for those people who were happy with it.

tomofhyrule

If your problem is "ZOS nerfed Heavy attack builds!", then why not just present the argument that way?

Right now, you're presenting "I demand other players change their builds so that mine will be needed so I can get into groups!", which is understandably going to annoy people. After all, I thought the entire point of this argument was that people were excluding others for their build - is the answer really to demand that others (tanks, who are generally doing the most thankless job) wear something else and forgo other group buffs to buff only a subset of players?

If the nerfs on heavy builds are absolutely preventing you from trials are an issue, you do have options: 1) fill out a /feedback report in game, or better 2) bring some CMX parses or videos to the PTS combat feedback thread to show the dev team what the biggest issues are. But again, I run trials with people who use heavy attack builds. It is absolutely possible to do that. It's those raid leads that require specific builds, and the obvious answer is to find more accommodating raid leads or start your own groups.
Besides, the current meta for parse DPS pretty much says "Arcanist or get out," so it's not a hit on heavy attack builds specifically. And again, if they don't want you, then find or start a group that does.

katanagirl1

I am not a theorycrafter or even knowledgeable enough about the game to understand all this, but I am pretty sure OP is a PVPer. Is there some advantage this would have for tanks in Cyrodiil or BGs?

Orbital78

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I am not a theorycrafter or even knowledgeable enough about the game to understand all this, but I am pretty sure OP is a PVPer. Is there some advantage this would have for tanks in Cyrodiil or BGs?

(5 items) When you block while in combat, you and all group members within 28 meters gain Warrior's Justice for 15 seconds, increasing your heavy attacks against monsters by 2,000. This effect can occur once every 15 seconds.

Since is would effect monsters only, I doubt it.

xStaticx

I wish they would come out with a new Mythic that would buff 2 bar HA builds. Give another option besides Oakensoul.

Orbital78

xStaticx wrote: »

I wish they would come out with a new Mythic that would buff 2 bar HA builds. Give another option besides Oakensoul.

Empower is available for everyone with scribing now, I don't think that is going to happen or is really needed. Oakensoul offers a lot of buffs which is why it has the downside of one bar.

Rkindaleft

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

from what ive seen, trial groups dont look down on HA players, but a HA playstyle is insufficient for certain content such as trial HMs, part of the thing is a lot of the AOE power of HA has been reduced due to how it was changed for lightning staves

I've seen the complete opposite. When the HA builds did do enough to get things done, they pushed for nerfs aggressively until it was not possibly for them to keep up, on the basis they didn't deserve to be able to do them. That's the reason the change was made as the HA builds already did significantly less damage prior to the nerfs.

Anyway, I agree about the changes to the set. And I don't think a tank set is a good solution to HA builds.

Everyone has their opinions, but I feel this is an over-generalized view point of the nerfs. I was heavily involved in those discussions and yes there were some outliers but for 90% of people who wanted Empower to be nerfed it was because HA at that point in time gave too much value for how zero effort it was to play. All you had to do was look at the logs and the equipment to see that 90% of vAS + IR runners and like 50% of all the other trials were Oakensoul users, a guild I was in back then who were doing vSS farm runs found out that they didn't even need to use healers and for most of the runs just used 10 HA DPS with flappy bird to heal each other out of the ice cages. They were also meta for dungeon trifectas because they had more than enough DPS for all of them and had incredible tankiness, so using LA build just made it harder.

Alas, reminiscing about the past doesn't add anything to the discussion, so in regards to OP if you absolutely require a set that specifically buffs HA groups don't put it on the tank. Just make it as a DPS support set like Z'en or Martial Knowledge. There's already like 10+ sets that tanks have to switch around depending on the trial or group composition.

alpha_synuclein

VvwvenomwvV wrote: »

Diversity is a good thing.

It's kinda funny how this is being repeated over and over by a person that only wants to play in one very specific way.
And wishes to be acommodated by those who don't enjoy that way, instead of looking for those that do

VvwvenomwvV

tomofhyrule wrote: »

If your problem is "ZOS nerfed Heavy attack builds!", then why not just present the argument that way?

Right now, you're presenting "I demand other players change their builds so that mine will be needed so I can get into groups!", which is understandably going to annoy people. After all, I thought the entire point of this argument was that people were excluding others for their build - is the answer really to demand that others (tanks, who are generally doing the most thankless job) wear something else and forgo other group buffs to buff only a subset of players?

If the nerfs on heavy builds are absolutely preventing you from trials are an issue, you do have options: 1) fill out a /feedback report in game, or better 2) bring some CMX parses or videos to the PTS combat feedback thread to show the dev team what the biggest issues are. But again, I run trials with people who use heavy attack builds. It is absolutely possible to do that. It's those raid leads that require specific builds, and the obvious answer is to find more accommodating raid leads or start your own groups.
Besides, the current meta for parse DPS pretty much says "Arcanist or get out," so it's not a hit on heavy attack builds specifically. And again, if they don't want you, then find or start a group that does.

First off, it's not an "argument."
Second, I'm not "demanding anyone change their builds so I can get into any groups."
Third. We don't have any set in the game like this that is a support set.
Fourth, why are you so mad?

To address another post about "diversity", I run all different types of builds, 1 bar, 2 bar, tank builds, etc. It's not about "me", it's about an entire group of people who are experiencing Eso this way.

Anyway, it's a tank / support set for PvE only. This can ALSO BE USED IN 4 PLAYER CONTENT WHERE YOU MIGHT NOT GET ALL OF THOSE TRIAL BUFFS.

If you like the set, cool, if you don't, don't use it. At least it's not a reshuffle of the same old thing, lowers resistances, increases damage taken 10%, etc,etc. It's something different, something that some people might enjoy. It's 1 set. 1 SET. No big deal.

Orbital78

TBH I still think they nerfed tri-focus just because it was the easiest way to counter the pvp thing. Heavy attack builds could use a little love still but they are still pretty viable. I recently gave Sergeant's Mail and Mora's Scribe combo a shot, and it seemed fairly decent. Thankfully I have guild mates that will let me play what ever I want, even in hard modes. Open runs with other high end guilds, I am most likely locked in to Arcanist.

This was bosses and trash combined for vLC, I was 3rd place. The top two Arcanists would out-parse me no matter what build I used, though I could get closer with my Arcanist. I was tied with the main tank for deaths, a total of three.

Amottica

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

Given how easy hybrid dps healers are to run (since heals and damage are both buffed by magicka) I would like to see Hybrid tanking get some love.
However, since the PvE tanks tend to spend a lot of time blocking, I'm not sure buffing light attacks is the way to go?

Most tanks are hybrid builds by design. I have used both stamina and magika when tanking for a while. Blocking is not constant, or at least should not be constant.

Their idea for the set bonus is to buff the group's damage. There are selfish and selfless builds. Tank builds serious groups, not even talking top groups, and they are often designed to buff the group. These same tanks may use a selfish build, one that benefits only the tank when they run with pugs.

A skilled tank avoids the damage they can by paying attention to the boss and mechanics and blocks what they cannot avoid.