DEAR ZOS, MAY WE PLEASE HAVE THIS?

VvwvenomwvV

A tanking set that buffs heavy attack damage by a flat amount?

Warrior's Justice

(2 items) Adds 1487 Armor
(3 items) Adds 1206 Maximum Health
(4 items) Adds 1487 Armor
(5 items) Adds 1206 Maximum Health
(5 items) When you block while in combat, you and all group members within 28 meters gain Warrior's Justice for 15 seconds, increasing your heavy attacks against monsters by 2,000. This effect can occur once every 15 seconds.

I'd like to see a true heavy attack set added to the game as well. As it is, many trial groups look down on heavy attack builds because of many reasons. This is a problem with people who enjoy that style of play, but don't fit in with the trial click. Having a tank specific set ( one that doesn't give Empower because it's achieved in other ways ), will help bridge the gap for heavy attack players in trial groups. This way more people can enjoy all of the content Eso has to offer.

moderatelyfatman

Given how easy hybrid dps healers are to run (since heals and damage are both buffed by magicka) I would like to see Hybrid tanking get some love.
However, since the PvE tanks tend to spend a lot of time blocking, I'm not sure buffing light attacks is the way to go?

tomofhyrule

Just to be clear - your strategy to make heavy attack players more accepted in trials is to force the tanks to collect yet another set to buff the DPS, and therefore also not wear one of the sets we already need to wear to buff the group? Out of curiosity then, which current tank set is the one we should give up?

I also don't see how buffing heavy and light attack damage is going to change things much, considering that the high parse DPS will also be buffed by getting extra light attack damage, and that'll encourage more people to favor the high APM LA-weave players. In fact, the only people this set would disfavor are people specifically running Velothi's - which yes, are overrepresented in trials, but that's because that's the meta. And I'm sure eventually that meta will shift eventually, as it usually tends to do.

thorwyn

You are not going to fix the acceptance for HA builds by simply buffing them even more than Oakensoul already does. Damage numbers are not the deciding factor for allowing or excluding HA builds for many group leads. And apart from that, noone is stopping HA build players from creating their group and rock the stage if they want to.

ApoAlaia

I don't personally think that is the way to go.

I do think that with the rework of tri-focus they 'peeled back' - as they like to put it - one layer too many, and Id love to see some of the woefully underutilised sets reworked to provide situational bonuses to HA builds in the way one may run different combinations of sets for different encounters with 'traditional' 2-bar builds.

Have a set restore some of the lost and sorely missed cleave at the expense of ST damage for instance , or provide useful buffs for the group with stacks that only build up from HAs.

Sadly I think the likelihood of such thing is low, it would seem to me that the devs were quite happy to defang these builds and please the critics in the process and now is just water under the bridge.

VvwvenomwvV

The point to shift the meta is to keep the game fresh. Shift it too much and people freak out. It's a balancing job the devs have to do. Adding one set for the tank won't cause any major waves, but it will add to what already exists, and will encourage a portion of the playerbase to participate in more content that Eso has to offer. Some will be happy, some will be mad. This always is the case. If you don't like it, don't use it. For those who like like, it allows them to have fun and enjoy more Eso content. 😉

VvwvenomwvV

Also, if light attack damage is an issue, they could change it to where it only affects heavy attacks.

Necrotech_Master

from what ive seen, trial groups dont look down on HA players, but a HA playstyle is insufficient for certain content such as trial HMs, part of the thing is a lot of the AOE power of HA has been reduced due to how it was changed for lightning staves

the amount of buff on this is basically a free always active sergeant set (i think its slightly weaker than sergeant but not by much)

affecting light attacks would overall increase everyones DPS because of weaving

affecting HA would basically give everyone a free HA build (since the HA player wouldnt need to run sergeant), or a more powerful HA build (stacking with 2 HA sets such as seargent and noble duelist)

if it affected both, i could see some groups using it purely because of the buff on light attack, that would be probably a minimum of 2k more dps sustained, assuming no crits, so probably closer to 4-5k dps increase per person minimum including crits

if it only affected HA, then no serious group would end up using it because you would have to have an entire group of HA players for it to benefit

tomofhyrule

VvwvenomwvV wrote: »

This always is the case. If you don't like it, don't use it. For those who like like, it allows them to have fun and enjoy more Eso content. 😉

Wait... are you suggesting that the tank is going to be the one trying to DPS with a heavy attack build? Instead of, like, blocking?
If so: no. A tank should absolutely not be trying to DPS with any build. They should be trying to tank.

Or are you suggesting that the Heavy attack DPS should wear a tank set?
If so: why are you putting health/armor bonuses on your proposed setup instead of damage bonuses (or, since you have a 'perfected' in mind, it should probably have Minor Slayer)? That means you're sacrificing damage for survivability, and will of course lower your damage.

Or is this something that the tank needs to wear (again, there are a lot of tank sets, so a tank wearing one means they're not wearing something else) to buff a Heavy attack DPS?
If so: it sounds like then you're trying to mandate that someone wears a set for your benefit. Again, that means a tank isn't wearing one of the other sets they could use to buff everyone, and instead wearing a set that will buff one specific playstyle and one alone. As such, you're still going to have the same issues since tanks won't want to wear something that buffs only a few people unless the entire group is on a Heavy attack build... in which case you aren't shaking up the meta.

If you want a set that's buffing heavy attacks and only heavy attacks, that would need to be a personal set. Because once you need someone else to wear a set to buff you (and only you), at the exclusion of people in other builds, then there's a good reason they have to not wear that set.

spartaxoxo

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

from what ive seen, trial groups dont look down on HA players, but a HA playstyle is insufficient for certain content such as trial HMs, part of the thing is a lot of the AOE power of HA has been reduced due to how it was changed for lightning staves

I've seen the complete opposite. When the HA builds did do enough to get things done, they pushed for nerfs aggressively until it was not possibly for them to keep up, on the basis they didn't deserve to be able to do them. That's the reason the change was made as the HA builds already did significantly less damage prior to the nerfs.

Anyway, I agree about the changes to the set. And I don't think a tank set is a good solution to HA builds.

Necrotech_Master

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

from what ive seen, trial groups dont look down on HA players, but a HA playstyle is insufficient for certain content such as trial HMs, part of the thing is a lot of the AOE power of HA has been reduced due to how it was changed for lightning staves

I've seen the complete opposite. When the HA builds did do enough to get things done, they pushed for nerfs aggressively until it was not possibly for them to keep up, on the basis they didn't deserve to be able to do them. That's the reason the change was made as the HA builds already did significantly less damage prior to the nerfs.

Anyway, I agree about the changes to the set. And I don't think a tank set is a good solution to HA builds.

none of the groups ive ever been in were anti-HA

there were actually times when we had up to 6 of the 8 dps in our trial groups as HA players during the peak of it before the lightning staff aoe nerf

single target wise a HA still is at roughly the same power it was, it just has about half of the aoe potential because of the lack of dmg on the first 2 ticks of the heavy

tomofhyrule

I'll also offer the fact that Heavy Attack builds are still used in high level content. Maybe not everything, but it's not like they are completely excluded. Yes, there will be some things that Heavy builds are actively barred from (like if Relequen is up in vCR, but even then you just have to have a staff on both bars and not use Oakensoul and it's fine), but it's completely wrong to say that Heavy attack builds are completely useless in vet content.

Yes, even in the latest patch.

Source: I did the Coral Aerie trifecta on the 20th of June, 3 Oakensorcs in group. Also 2x IR clears with 2 of the DPS in an Oakensorc setup in the next two weeks after.

It's groups that set their own requirements. If your group doesn't let you in because they don't like heavy attack builds, find another group.

spartaxoxo

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

from what ive seen, trial groups dont look down on HA players, but a HA playstyle is insufficient for certain content such as trial HMs, part of the thing is a lot of the AOE power of HA has been reduced due to how it was changed for lightning staves

I've seen the complete opposite. When the HA builds did do enough to get things done, they pushed for nerfs aggressively until it was not possibly for them to keep up, on the basis they didn't deserve to be able to do them. That's the reason the change was made as the HA builds already did significantly less damage prior to the nerfs.

Anyway, I agree about the changes to the set. And I don't think a tank set is a good solution to HA builds.

none of the groups ive ever been in were anti-HA

there were actually times when we had up to 6 of the 8 dps in our trial groups as HA players during the peak of it before the lightning staff aoe nerf

single target wise a HA still is at roughly the same power it was, it just has about half of the aoe potential because of the lack of dmg on the first 2 ticks of the heavy

I'm sure it was your experience, I believe you. All of us have different experiences. But it was a very loud and vocal sentiment on here. And I remember hoping that it would be ignored because I saw way more PUGs back in the day. And I see way less PUGs now.

TheDarkRuler

I'd support such a set.
I am using both regular, heavy-attack and velothi-builds alike and love the diversity.

Ph1p

As a trial tank, I don't see much of a use case for this:

• If there are LA builds with Velothi in the group, the buff to light attacks would be reduced by 99% and wasted on them.
• If there are LA builds without Velothi, ZOS would have to reverse the cap on LA damage they introduced in Update 37 for this to be effective.
• If there are a few HA builds, this at least has an effect. But for the group as a whole, one of the existing tank sets would still be better.
• If HA players make up the majority of the group, this could be a good gear option. But unless you make it disproportionately more powerful than existing options, why would tanks farm and construct this?

alpha_synuclein

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I'll also offer the fact that Heavy Attack builds are still used in high level content. Maybe not everything, but it's not like they are completely excluded. Yes, there will be some things that Heavy builds are actively barred from (like if Relequen is up in vCR, but even then you just have to have a staff on both bars and not use Oakensoul and it's fine), but it's completely wrong to say that Heavy attack builds are completely useless in vet content.

Yes, even in the latest patch.

Source: I did the Coral Aerie trifecta on the 20th of June, 3 Oakensorcs in group. Also 2x IR clears with 2 of the DPS in an Oakensorc setup in the next two weeks after.

It's groups that set their own requirements. If your group doesn't let you in because they don't like heavy attack builds, find another group.

This.
Current version of HA builds can clear every content except the very latest trial HMs and trifectas. You just need to find (or make) a nice group.

As for the top end of the endgame, these groups want flexibility, first and foremost. Endgamers are expectd to play multiple roles and classes. Playing multiple gear and skill setups in one trial is common and obvious. Trash and boss specific setups are the basics, but it can go way beyond that. This applies to roles as well, if two healers (or tanks) are not essential, you're playing some fights as DD. And even among DDs, you can join a group as parse arcanist and end up playing zenkosh DK two weeks later. At this point there are no such thing as individual builds, you play what your group needs. And you're expected to perform adequately on any setup you're given. From what I've seen so far, lot of HA players lacks this kind of flexibility.

Regardless of how much your build get buffed, if either your efficiency or your fun is tied to a very specific build/playstyle, you won't fit in such a sweaty environment. And you probably won't be very happy either.

Orbital78

What I would like to see is sets revisited and adjusted since the nerfs to splash. Why is the main meta HA set a "tank" set?

I don't think HA will ever be able to compete with velothi Arcanists unless they're heavily nerfed too. Which wouldn't be my hope, as it is what I have to use most of the time.

Necrotech_Master

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

from what ive seen, trial groups dont look down on HA players, but a HA playstyle is insufficient for certain content such as trial HMs, part of the thing is a lot of the AOE power of HA has been reduced due to how it was changed for lightning staves

I've seen the complete opposite. When the HA builds did do enough to get things done, they pushed for nerfs aggressively until it was not possibly for them to keep up, on the basis they didn't deserve to be able to do them. That's the reason the change was made as the HA builds already did significantly less damage prior to the nerfs.

Anyway, I agree about the changes to the set. And I don't think a tank set is a good solution to HA builds.

none of the groups ive ever been in were anti-HA

there were actually times when we had up to 6 of the 8 dps in our trial groups as HA players during the peak of it before the lightning staff aoe nerf

single target wise a HA still is at roughly the same power it was, it just has about half of the aoe potential because of the lack of dmg on the first 2 ticks of the heavy

I'm sure it was your experience, I believe you. All of us have different experiences. But it was a very loud and vocal sentiment on here. And I remember hoping that it would be ignored because I saw way more PUGs back in the day. And I see way less PUGs now.

i remember the threads about it on here, but seemed to me a fairly small portion of the overall playerbase

the only ones that i remember complaining about it were people who were like "oh heres a video of a raid team completing godslayer with full group HA build" for one of the more prominent threads

it was very clear though that A) a pug or inexperienced group would be unlikely able to do this and B ) all of those players have likely completed godslayer before on normal builds

so i never took those arguments seriously, but im sure there are those people out there who are biased against HA playstyle

VvwvenomwvV

To help better explain the purpose of such a set: Diversity. For anyone looking to get into an end game trials team they will be forced to run the same cookie cutter builds. Not everyone enjoys those types of builds. The difference in required dps to participate in end game trials groups between meta builds and heavy attack builds is a big difference. I just seen a hybrid Stam sorc hit 150k. There are plenty of builds out there pushing 120-130k+ Obviously, heavy attack builds NEED SOME LOVE ❤️.

Diversity is a good thing!

alpha_synuclein

VvwvenomwvV wrote: »

To help better explain the purpose of such a set: Diversity. For anyone looking to get into an end game trials team they will be forced to run the same cookie cutter builds. Not everyone enjoys those types of builds. The difference in required dps to participate in end game trials groups between meta builds and heavy attack builds is a big difference. I just seen a hybrid Stam sorc hit 150k. There are plenty of builds out there pushing 120-130k+ Obviously, heavy attack builds NEED SOME LOVE ❤️.

Diversity is a good thing!

And yet instead seeing teams of stamsorcs blasting through HM trials we see teams full of arcanists with one sorc, who's playing either support DD with MK or a tank Raw numbers are not everything.

If you're against dps requirements and adjusting your builds according to what your team wants, you won't be accepted into an optimized team. Not because your numbers are too low, but because your attitude is incompatible with their way of playing. Anyway, what is the point of trying to get to a team that plays in a the way that you don't like?

What you can do though is to find yourself a capable but more casually oriented team and go through content with them.

VvwvenomwvV

OR...Zos could make an adjustment that would allow people who enjoy a different style of play to enjoy Eso they way they like to play. Again, diversity is a good thing. Adding a tank set wouldn't affect the groups who don't like it ,but it would help those who do. Heck, it might even bridge the gap in the way of thinking about group composition. 😃

Stafford197

I think you have good intentions but this won’t work out at all. You’re not changing anyone’s mind about current trial group compositions lol. If you really want to buff heavy attacks you would ask ZOS to undo the Tri Focus nerfs btw.

And ofc you can totally make your own group where Heavy Attack builds are required too.

cptscotty

Also...Dear ZOS....can you please add some new fish to the game? At least one of them with a 1% chance drop rate so it takes a while to grind for, and then make a reward worthy for it?

Then please if you can, make all fishing achievements invalidated unless people get the new fish. Would really be appreciated.

Thank you

VvwvenomwvV

We are talking about a TANK set. This way it would help bridge the gap between different styles of play. Diversity is a good thing.

kringled_1

cptscotty wrote: »

Also...Dear ZOS....can you please add some new fish to the game? At least one of them with a 1% chance drop rate so it takes a while to grind for, and then make a reward worthy for it?

Then please if you can, make all fishing achievements invalidated unless people get the new fish. Would really be appreciated.

Thank you

Wut.
I don't think eso achievements were meant to be invalidated like that, and tbh it just feels like you have some need to lord your fishing achievements (of all things) over other people who don't have as much free time currently.

cptscotty

kringled_1 wrote: »

cptscotty wrote: »

Also...Dear ZOS....can you please add some new fish to the game? At least one of them with a 1% chance drop rate so it takes a while to grind for, and then make a reward worthy for it?

Then please if you can, make all fishing achievements invalidated unless people get the new fish. Would really be appreciated.

Thank you

Wut.
I don't think eso achievements were meant to be invalidated like that, and tbh it just feels like you have some need to lord your fishing achievements (of all things) over other people who don't have as much free time currently.

to be fair...if you get those kind of achievements you definitely should be able to show them off to others and everyone else should be in amazement!

So yes ZOS, please add this in a new update. Think of it this way....it keeps people paying and playing longer so more money for you.

Oh and #Harvest....you are welcome buddy

tomofhyrule

VvwvenomwvV wrote: »

We are talking about a TANK set. This way it would help bridge the gap between different styles of play. Diversity is a good thing.

But again: Which tank set are the tanks not supposed to wear to support wearing a tank set designed to specifically buff Heavy Attacks?

If your current problem is "groups won't let me play with them!", why is giving the tanks yet another set (and thereby excluding one of the other sets they wear) going to fix it. Are you expecting that groups will then start saying "you know, we don't need extra crit damage/extra damage for all attacks for the whole group when we could have the tank buffing specifically heavy attacks for one person instead!"

Mathematically, more damage for everyone > mode damage for one person.

VvwvenomwvV

Because having this tank set might shift the meta, or at least offer the choice of a group buff that would allow people to play a different way.

Necrotech_Master

the current meta for most tanks is like turning tide (major vuln which increases all dmg done to target), crimson oath (-armor on target, thereby increasing all dmg as dps dont need to build as much pen)

off tanks usually use stuff like pearlescent ward (+dmg which buffs everything), powerful assault (+dmg which buffs everything), or like a necromancer tank could use saxheel (provides major force on ult, so they can colossus and get major force, which buffs crit dmg which increases all dmg)

including a set pigeonholed into HA would likely only be buffing only part of the group unless the entire group was running a HA build

even if you go by your initial version which also buffs light attacks, thats not buffing ALL dmg like major vuln, major force, pearlescent, or powerful assault, or debuffing targets like tremorscale/crimson oath

in order to touch the meta, it has to affect all dmg or be a buff that applies to all players in a group

VvwvenomwvV

So imagine if people wore light armor instead of medium. Oh wow...that might work. Then that opens up other options. The point is about diversity.

Also, this includes 4 player content where you may not be getting all of those trial buffs.

The nature of adding anything to the game will have some people like something, and others will not. That doesn't mean that the people who would enjoy something should be disallowed. If something is added that you don't like, don't use it.

Diversity is a good thing! 👍

Necrotech_Master

VvwvenomwvV wrote: »

So imagine if people wore light armor instead of medium. Oh wow...that might work. Then that opens up other options. The point is about diversity.

Also, this includes 4 player content where you may not be getting all of those trial buffs.

The nature of adding anything to the game will have some people like something, and others will not. That doesn't mean that the people who would enjoy something should be disallowed. If something is adding that you don't like, don't use it.

Diversity is a good thing! 👍

that is completely different practice than "changing the meta"

theres already several hundred sets in the game that allow diversity, including ones focused on buffing heavy attacks

if you want to play a HA build, theres literally nobody stopping you from doing so, you just have to know that the "top end" limitations of the build your playing