Laughs At the Plastic Tanks

LaintalAy · July 16

Oznog666 wrote: »

Very good advice, but the problem is: since some weeks (or even months) there are so many players who don't either not know how to chat or look at the chat window or are not able to unterstand english.

If English doesn't work, perhaps you should try posting in another language.

(edit: added a word)

Necrotech_Master · July 16

i dont necessarily run into this problem too much, because most of the time i do randoms (or just queue for dungeons in general) i usually play as the tank with a bit of dps built in lol

i usually deal more with toxic speedsters that run ahead of me, die, and then blame me for not tanking when they are nowhere near the rest of the group, or dont even wait for me to catch up (tank = heavy armor = not super fast)

the worst case of these was when in scalecaller peak, a speedster decided to run all the way to the first boss, and ended up wiping the group pulling all of us into the fight with "join encounter in progress" as it spawned us next to both ogre bosses standing next to each other, which their aura is pretty deadly even in normal, especially when you cannot move or heal yourself because its still doing the join transition

i ended up just dropping the group after that incident if the whole dungeon was going to end up being like that

Vulkunne · July 16

Sarannah wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Tanks will stop being fake when the dps stops being bad.

In literally hundreds of normal dungeons(before I stopped doing them) as a real tank, I have only encountered bad dps a handful of times. Every other time DPS quickly improves, really quickly!

What fake tanks and fake healers do not realize is they are the cause of bad dps. When people have to expect a fake role, they have to change their build accordingly:
-10-15% dps loss: Due to fake tanks, players have to build for survival. Meaning they have to change some gear, spend a skillslot, and/or have to change CP's to counter this. This is about a 10-15% dps loss, at minimum.
-10-15% dps loss: Due to fake healers, players have to be able to heal themselves. Meaning they have to spend a skillslot for healing. This is about a 10-15% dps loss, at minimum!
-50% dps loss: Due to fake tanks, players are unable to perform their rotations well. Half the time they have to run around to not die, instead of dealing damage. This is about a 50% dps loss, often more due to death or having to keep running.
-10-15% dps loss due to non-optimal rotation/human factor. Due to fake healers/fake tanks, players cannot learn their role well or at all. Meaning the 100% dps possible output is reduced by atleast 30% due to not being able to be efficient. Only experienced players can do this, and even then it often won't be 100% efficient all the time. So I will take a low value and call it a 10-15% dps loss only.

Take the above and lets assume a person starts out with a 100% efficient rotation and would do 100k dps. Incorporate the above, and that is at the very least already an 80% dps loss at minimum. So that 100k dps is now 20k dps, even if you take the above minimum values. (Even more of a dps loss if you take the higher percentages)

So yes, bad dps is the result of fake roles.

PS: This is not even accounting for the bad experiences players have due to fake roles/speedrunners.
PPS: You can argue about my values somewhat, but they aren't far off the mark.

We need to relax a minute and think about what a fake anything is. Are you saying fake as in poorly represented or fake as in, we're replacing the role with something else?

I've been a tank for the last 8 to 9 years with ESO and we've always needed more DPS. The way we get the Dmg that we're missing is by replacing roles we don't need, so as I've said, and others have said, sometimes the healer or the Tank itself can be successfully replaced by DPS. And in doing so our DPS capabilities go thru the roof. None of these numbers apply or make any sense whatsoever in this situation. My Tank when not having to operate solely in a traditional sense provides damage but not healing to the group. Healers when they are not expected to operate in a traditional sense, should help with damage.

Players who poorly represent their roles will undoubtedly create issues however, as many, many of us have said on here in the past fake doesn't necessarily mean 'poor quality'; we're just substituting roles. I don't want people to get the wrong idea or see some stupid change someday, like in other games, that strips away the freedom to switch our group around (as we need it to be and, in a TOS, friendly way) because someone else doesn't appreciate the concept. Also, something to think about it ESO has raids of varied difficulty, which this by itself challenges traditional approaches to the raid. In other words, generally speaking a traditional group is not required for Normal runs as opposed to a more advanced and traditional setup for Veteran or especially HM ones.

spartaxoxo · July 16

Sarannah wrote: »

What fake tanks and fake healers do not realize is they are the cause of bad dps. When people have to expect a fake role, they have to change their build accordingly

No, they do not. DPS only need to slot 1 heal on a regular DPS build, in order to deal with it. And most builds have a flex-spot for that heal. At no point have I ever needed to adjust my dps build for dungeons because of fakes. Most who think that don't realize how their lack of damage makes dungeons less safe, and also how to do basic things like dodge, roll, interrupt, and avoid AOE without moving around constantly. So, they make it up for it by adjusting their builds to just mitigate damage/heal through their errors. That's a skill issue, not a fake support role issue.

LaintalAy · July 17

JimFord047 wrote: »

Ok couple of Fun Ones, for me at least!

Plastic Tanks in Dungeons (Mostly Normal)

For a Long time we have been getting DPS, annoyed by the length of time they have to queue for a dungeon, come in as a Tank. The majority of the time this is not a problem, but can for some be annoying. Since I play most of the time as a Healer I have the Joy of keeping these things Alive , REALLY HARD to do, given at lower levels they die looking at a boss! My healers are All Spec'd as TANKS, only thing i need to do is switch the CP's over and I am now a tank!

I will wait, doing my job, until my patience wears out, then I will just Switch to doing the Tanks Job and the healing Job, no big thing , very easy to do in a normal. BUT,,,,,

I have only ever played as a magicka-based DD, so I don't know how relevant this will be. I'm not good enough to play Veteran dungeons, but when I am, I can't see any good reason why I'd go back to playing Normal dungeons.

I normally wait about 20 minutes for the queue to pop but as I don't have a bus to catch, it doesn't seem that long. I can speed that up by starting on a World Boss. It seems to always pop then; or when I'm most of the way through a delve.

How do you switch CPs when you are in combat? You must have a lot of of CP to have all the slottables available to choose from!

I never notice the Tank, unless they've run off. Otherwise I just run in and throw myself at the boss. Strangely, I get comments like "so tanky..." as if that's a problem. My main dungeon problem is watching everyone's health bars draining and when I ask (in english) "Who's healing" I get no response. That's why I carry a resto bar and a couple of resto abilities on my back bar.

1. Person is in as a Plastic Tank, Says Nothing , the 19K life is the normal giveaway, they are playing as a DPS, so they are dying Quick, No Taunt just go for the boss and DPS it to death..... in their Head. After a While like several minutes, Nope, time to be the Tank. Run into Boss - Taunt it - Turn it - Hold it, they all DPS it, jobs done in less than a minute. Get to the Next Boss , I run forward and repeat being the TANK, All I get in chat is "What Are you Doing, I AM THE TANK!" ... OK, So I wait until the taunt is over (15 Seconds), then Run Behind the "Plastic TANK" , who after a Couple of hits , and lots of heals gets one hit and off they go, the other DPS also Die the same way... that leave Little ME, All Tanked UP, doing little to No Damage , but raised the DPS's (who were Doing Very Good Damage, compared to the tiny amount of the "Plastic Tank" , Tanked the Boss and they cleared it no problem,,,, Got into the Final Boss , I asked "Do you want me to tank this one, I can Survive!", Answer from DPS's "Yes" and "Go For It" - The Plastic Tank, announced " I am in a Dungeon with a False Healer , this is ridiculous, your all going to be sorry without a tank" and then Left the dungeon,,,,,, 3 of us took out the Last Boss in a couple of Minutes ... Hmmm

I don't waste any time spying on other people's statistics. It doesn't take much to notice low level players. I didn't realise that bosses all needed to be dealt with in less than a minute. Presumably any low-level players can get all the experience that they need in that short time.

I am confused. In your opinion, a low-health DD has queued as a Tank and dies; but you've queued as the Healer. Some (as you clearly point out) might argue that you're a Fake Healer. You actually confirm this, by then playing as a Tank.

So, with that in mind, maybe the person who queued as a Tank; and is now complaining "I am the Tank", may actually be trying to learn how to play as a Tank. Instead of asking for permission to ditch your role as Fake Healer and move onto Fake Tank, perhaps you should have enquired about the Tank's current experience and what they were trying to achieve.

It was your assumption that they were a DD 'falsely' queuing as a Tank; that may not actually have been correct.

2. The plastic Tank, saying nothing, once more Obvious DPS, Low Life , and a Low Level 250ish and the 2 DPS were Low level as well 80/90ish, going trough, its like watching an old World War 2 BANZAI Charge, with the same results, lots of Death - Mostly Theirs! I am told By the tank "Are you Actually a Healer - We are all dying here, Do Your Job!" I tried Saying "I am Running out of Magika healing you lot! , you have to tank and hold the boss to let the DPS kill it", but That went for Nothing , So I Just Tanked the Boss, They All Pilled in, and after a While the boss died, and they did not. The Next Boss I just went in and Tanked it, they all pile in , boss dead, but the Tank is Still going on about How I should not be doing HIS job, I was the Healer, DO YOUR JOB! I tried pointing out, with me Tanking and Healing - NOBODY DIED, Him Tanking and Me Just Healing, I did Not have enough Magika - But OK , I will JUST HEAL, Tank 1 Hit Dead , DPS 1 Hit Dead, Last DPS almost Dead, Heals Him, He goes to raise his mate, So I Tank the Boss, they raise the Tank, last boss, I went in Tanked it, and it was over Quick... But then Started the Tirade of How I was A bad Healer, and it was My EGO, that was getting in the way ..... EGO??? I am a lvl 2690, 10 time higher than you, Done this Dungeon Hundreds of times over the past 9 years, Ego has nothing to do with it, Your A DPS without a Taunt , All low Level, you were never going to do this! It was tanked, its dead its over its done..... But OH NO, the plastic tank has to keep going on why basically he should have been in a dungeon with 3 healers . it was everyone's fault that he died!!!! LMAO leave dungeon, and go to bed for me... Not worth the effort, "Never Argue with an IDIOT, Because if you do, they will drag you down to their level and Win on Experience!"

Why are you running out of magicka? Maybe it's your suplementary 'Tank Build' that's focused on high health; and not high magicka. As a magicka DD, my setup is built around high magicka and high restore magicka. I pay some attention to health and health recovery; and virtually none to stamina.

If I get into a low health situation, I expect the Healer to bail me out. That is the Healer's role. My overall experience with under-performing healers is to include self-heal abilities along with my back bar for emergencies. This has the residual effect of lowering my ability to apply a high rate of dps.

You should not have left; as a 2670CP Tank faking it as a healer, you should not have been there to start with.

3. Guy comes in as a Tank , Says Right up, "I am a DPS, But I have a Taunt", So I answered "ok No Problem, its normal, it will be fine", He did try - Fairness where deserved, He Did Taunt the NPC's , He did pull them, and he took a lot of healing. So I quietly pulled the boss away from him, and it was done, next boss and I said "Do You want to just let me Tank?" NO ANSWER, so let him start and then the same, get to the next boss and I said Again "Do You Want me to Tank This? Look at the Life 46K , I AM A TANK!".... Plastic Tank types back " Your A TANK!", "Please Do", "I Happily Fire Myself as Tank!" - Finished the Dungeon and the tank Types in "Thank you very Much, That went so much easier and Quicker with a real tank, TYFG" , No Problems, Any time!

You "quietly pulled the boss away" - why?
Dungeon not going fast enough for you?
You decided that the inexperience Tank had had enough training?
You felt that you could do better?

Really; you are a Tank, queuing as a Fake healer. Really.
The comments coming back to you, as you quoted, are entirely justified.

they come in to avoid the queue in the Majority, But Some actually think that "you do not need a TANK, DPS is Enough" , YES in a lot of cases you are correct, if the others are ALL HIGH LEVEL experienced, they are going to Carry YOU. But All Low Level, and Particular Dungeons, YOU NEED THE TANK!
So some people leave, some kick them, some just fail to complete the dungeon, especially on Veteran. For Me , it makes no difference , I play as Tank or Healer, depending on how i feel. But I do understand the frustration of the queue at times as the wife plays DPS. But the fun you can have listening to the Plastic Tank defending his Position,,,, there are some very clueless DPS out there, with an over confidence in their abilities.... and It can annoy others!!

Some people may be avoiding a long DD queue, if that really exists. But no-one, not even you can prove that.
It's just an assumption that you and many other players like you make.

The only single thing that your post proves, it that:
YOU queue as a Healer; with the INTENTION of changing to the Tank role.
That makes you the fake.

My first Veteran, was when I was actually as High Level, I was a Late Starter on dungeons as i was unsure if i could actually do it, and wanted to make sure that I was prepared, having Survived all of the Normal Ones , I went in as a Healer , First thing I did was Apologise and say this was my first Veteran, and I would Do My Best, they were all high level and very cool about it, I probably did next to No Healing, but learned a lot... Next time was not as smooth, but experience teaches you a lot!

So the Moral is simple for ME, Come in, tell everyone, and if your offered Help, TAKE IT and learn.... In the Majority ESO has a Lot of Good People, who will pause and give you advice if you need it... Listen to them, its their experience that's being passed on!!!

If I were to find myself in a dungeon where the healer was usurping the tank's role; I'd just leave.

Play the role that you queued for. If you queued in a random dungeon, then you will always get mixed skill levels; but everyone plays THEIR role to the best of their current ability, that is all that matters.

The time it takes doesn't really matter.
The number of times to complete doesn't really matter.

The WHOLE POINT of random dungeons is to challenge YOU. YOU are supposed to be surprised by the team that is built and YOU are supposed to adapt- and not by changing roles!!!. It isn't supposed to be the same, predictable experience every time.

Thanks for posting! xoxox

LaintalAy · July 17

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Tanks will stop being fake when the dps stops being bad.

That sounds impressive, but it doesn't actually make any sense.

How will having good DDs stop Fake Tanks appearing?

xylena_lazarow · July 17

LaintalAy wrote: »

How will having good DDs stop Fake Tanks appearing?

It wouldn't 100% guarantee, but it'll at least bring Real Tanks back to the queues.

Enemoriana · July 17

Sluggy wrote: »

Their story specifically mentioned people that weren't up to the task of actually tanking regardless of their stats. If they could hold aggro on what counts and not die doing it then it didn't matter.

Yes, I know. I'm answering to quoted part, not all post, and I'm speaking not about "I go as tank and it is ok", but about "there is no need in three high level members for most dungeons".

spartaxoxo · July 17

LaintalAy wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Tanks will stop being fake when the dps stops being bad.

That sounds impressive, but it doesn't actually make any sense.

How will having good DDs stop Fake Tanks appearing?

It wouldn't stop it entirely. But many people who do it, do it because of the DDs they encountered when attempting to use a real tank.

MidniteOwl1913 · July 17

Sarannah wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Tanks will stop being fake when the dps stops being bad.

In literally hundreds of normal dungeons(before I stopped doing them) as a real tank, I have only encountered bad dps a handful of times. Every other time DPS quickly improves, really quickly!

What fake tanks and fake healers do not realize is they are the cause of bad dps. When people have to expect a fake role, they have to change their build accordingly:
-10-15% dps loss: Due to fake tanks, players have to build for survival. Meaning they have to change some gear, spend a skillslot, and/or have to change CP's to counter this. This is about a 10-15% dps loss, at minimum.
-10-15% dps loss: Due to fake healers, players have to be able to heal themselves. Meaning they have to spend a skillslot for healing. This is about a 10-15% dps loss, at minimum!
-50% dps loss: Due to fake tanks, players are unable to perform their rotations well. Half the time they have to run around to not die, instead of dealing damage. This is about a 50% dps loss, often more due to death or having to keep running.
-10-15% dps loss due to non-optimal rotation/human factor. Due to fake healers/fake tanks, players cannot learn their role well or at all. Meaning the 100% dps possible output is reduced by atleast 30% due to not being able to be efficient. Only experienced players can do this, and even then it often won't be 100% efficient all the time. So I will take a low value and call it a 10-15% dps loss only.

Take the above and lets assume a person starts out with a 100% efficient rotation and would do 100k dps. Incorporate the above, and that is at the very least already an 80% dps loss at minimum. So that 100k dps is now 20k dps, even if you take the above minimum values. (Even more of a dps loss if you take the higher percentages)

So yes, bad dps is the result of fake roles.

PS: This is not even accounting for the bad experiences players have due to fake roles/speedrunners.
PPS: You can argue about my values somewhat, but they aren't far off the mark.

I totally agree! Mostly I heal in dungeons but when I DPS if I get a fake healer I have to slot a heal instead of a damage skill it affects my damage output there is no doubt.

If I have to slot a shield again dps suffers.

And I always wonder about the "healers" who complain that they do more damage than the dps. If their build and their time is spent on damage how much healing are they actually doing?

MidniteOwl1913 · July 17

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i dont necessarily run into this problem too much, because most of the time i do randoms (or just queue for dungeons in general) i usually play as the tank with a bit of dps built in lol

i usually deal more with toxic speedsters that run ahead of me, die, and then blame me for not tanking when they are nowhere near the rest of the group, or dont even wait for me to catch up (tank = heavy armor = not super fast)

the worst case of these was when in scalecaller peak, a speedster decided to run all the way to the first boss, and ended up wiping the group pulling all of us into the fight with "join encounter in progress" as it spawned us next to both ogre bosses standing next to each other, which their aura is pretty deadly even in normal, especially when you cannot move or heal yourself because its still doing the join transition

i ended up just dropping the group after that incident if the whole dungeon was going to end up being like that

Huh I had that happen to me on Scalecaller Peak too. I was the healer. I was shocked that someone would be speed running that dungeon. And yes I left, there was no way that was going to work.

MorganaLaVey · July 17

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

And I always wonder about the "healers" who complain that they do more damage than the dps. If their build and their time is spent on damage how much healing are they actually doing?

Thats the fun part. Our build and time isnt spent on damage and we still do 50% + grp dps.
All the damage comes coincidental from skills like the elemental blockade for debuffs/ trigger ele drain/ activate weapon glyph, templar light for +crt dmg buff, solar prison for maim (boss does -10% dmg), shards, crushing shock for interrupt, etc.

Ofcourse healer gear like spellpower & Powerful Assault also buffs our own dps.

Edit:

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

how much healing are they actually doing?

All of it. Thats wy there is a problem. In this game, a DD should not do less dps on purpose than the very low dps a healer does coincidentally. Even if it is a bad/ new (>160cp) DD. If he does, it means he is less build for damage than a healer, thats wy many call them fake DD.

Ezhh · July 17

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

And I always wonder about the "healers" who complain that they do more damage than the dps. If their build and their time is spent on damage how much healing are they actually doing?

As a healer who has complained about exactly this:

Neither my build nor time are spent on dps. I weave light attacks between skill casts because it's something I do without even thinking. My wall of elements is on the ground because it will give the enemy a debuff and make you deal more damage. Depending on the class I'm playing, I might slot another skill or two that does damage, but not for the damage - for the debuffs or buffs provided by that skill.

At the same time you will have Healing Springs, Echoing Vigor, an orb and probably a class heal ticking on you. And I'll be renewing Combat Prayer on cooldown of the buff. I'll usually also have Radiating Regen up on the group as well because I'm used to people in random dungeons not stacking.

Is that enough healing?

I personally feel if while giving out this amount of healing I am outdamaging a 1.5k+ CP DD than that DD is not doing their job very well. And running into such DDs over and over and over is one of the things that makes good support players less likely to queue as a "real" healer or tank in random dungeons.

Desiato · July 17

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

And I always wonder about the "healers" who complain that they do more damage than the dps. If their build and their time is spent on damage how much healing are they actually doing?

In normal dungeons, a full time healer is a detriment. Even a real tank doesn't make sense to players who understand mechanics and play according to them instead of their personal whims.

I play a warden healer in random normals. It's a basic, pretty general build: mostly purple mother's sorrow/julianos with yellow wepaons and ring of the wild hunt. This is a character I only use for open world content and normal dungeons.

For the more challenging normal dungeons and when my group requires a lot of healing because they stand in red a lot, my front bar will be dps and my back bar will be healing, including orbs. In most normal groups, I'm doing 30-60% of the damage with this build. Sometimes it's up to 80%. No one ever dies unless they kill themselves by standing in red for too long.

For base game normals, I usually switch to a full dps build with an AE heal (enchanted growth) and no orbs because I can obliterate the mobs myself if I have to. No one ever dies.

If the group has a fake tank, I'll slot a taunt because that makes my life easier. I can tank any normal dungeon with a 5-1-1 light-med-heavy armor setup and heal my group with around 24k hp. It's np. Well, I haven't had to tank all of them, but it's never been a problem when I have had to.

In both my warden setups, green lotus does the majority of the healing.

I also tank vet randoms and I'm going to make a hybrid build for base game vets becuase they don't need a full tank either. My groups would benefit from more dps from me.

Even most vet DLCs don't really need a dedicated healer. Maybe none of them do. A well played tank can keep themselves alive (even without a selfish setup) with 3 decent dps who can avoid red and have self heals. Of course, one can't expect random players in a pug can play this setup.

ZOS_Hadeostry · July 18

Greetings,

After removing some unnecessary back and forth from this thread, and has run its course and is no longer constructive, we are now going to close it. We always encourage sharing opinions, but we ask that they remain respectful when doing so.

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