Laughs At the Plastic Tanks

JimFord047

Ok couple of Fun Ones, for me at least!

Plastic Tanks in Dungeons (Mostly Normal)

For a Long time we have been getting DPS, annoyed by the length of time they have to queue for a dungeon, come in as a Tank. The majority of the time this is not a problem, but can for some be annoying. Since I play most of the time as a Healer I have the Joy of keeping these things Alive , REALLY HARD to do, given at lower levels they die looking at a boss! My healers are All Spec'd as TANKS, only thing i need to do is switch the CP's over and I am now a tank!

I will wait, doing my job, until my patience wears out, then I will just Switch to doing the Tanks Job and the healing Job, no big thing , very easy to do in a normal. BUT,,,,,

1. Person is in as a Plastic Tank, Says Nothing , the 19K life is the normal giveaway, they are playing as a DPS, so they are dying Quick, No Taunt just go for the boss and DPS it to death..... in their Head. After a While like several minutes, Nope, time to be the Tank. Run into Boss - Taunt it - Turn it - Hold it, they all DPS it, jobs done in less than a minute. Get to the Next Boss , I run forward and repeat being the TANK, All I get in chat is "What Are you Doing, I AM THE TANK!" ... OK, So I wait until the taunt is over (15 Seconds), then Run Behind the "Plastic TANK" , who after a Couple of hits , and lots of heals gets one hit and off they go, the other DPS also Die the same way... that leave Little ME, All Tanked UP, doing little to No Damage , but raised the DPS's (who were Doing Very Good Damage, compared to the tiny amount of the "Plastic Tank" , Tanked the Boss and they cleared it no problem,,,, Got into the Final Boss , I asked "Do you want me to tank this one, I can Survive!", Answer from DPS's "Yes" and "Go For It" - The Plastic Tank, announced " I am in a Dungeon with a False Healer , this is ridiculous, your all going to be sorry without a tank" and then Left the dungeon,,,,,, 3 of us took out the Last Boss in a couple of Minutes ... Hmmm
2. The plastic Tank, saying nothing, once more Obvious DPS, Low Life , and a Low Level 250ish and the 2 DPS were Low level as well 80/90ish, going trough, its like watching an old World War 2 BANZAI Charge, with the same results, lots of Death - Mostly Theirs! I am told By the tank "Are you Actually a Healer - We are all dying here, Do Your Job!" I tried Saying "I am Running out of Magika healing you lot! , you have to tank and hold the boss to let the DPS kill it", but That went for Nothing , So I Just Tanked the Boss, They All Pilled in, and after a While the boss died, and they did not. The Next Boss I just went in and Tanked it, they all pile in , boss dead, but the Tank is Still going on about How I should not be doing HIS job, I was the Healer, DO YOUR JOB! I tried pointing out, with me Tanking and Healing - NOBODY DIED, Him Tanking and Me Just Healing, I did Not have enough Magika - But OK , I will JUST HEAL, Tank 1 Hit Dead , DPS 1 Hit Dead, Last DPS almost Dead, Heals Him, He goes to raise his mate, So I Tank the Boss, they raise the Tank, last boss, I went in Tanked it, and it was over Quick... But then Started the Tirade of How I was A bad Healer, and it was My EGO, that was getting in the way ..... EGO??? I am a lvl 2690, 10 time higher than you, Done this Dungeon Hundreds of times over the past 9 years, Ego has nothing to do with it, Your A DPS without a Taunt , All low Level, you were never going to do this! It was tanked, its dead its over its done..... But OH NO, the plastic tank has to keep going on why basically he should have been in a dungeon with 3 healers . it was everyone's fault that he died!!!! LMAO leave dungeon, and go to bed for me... Not worth the effort, "Never Argue with an IDIOT, Because if you do, they will drag you down to their level and Win on Experience!"
3. Guy comes in as a Tank , Says Right up, "I am a DPS, But I have a Taunt", So I answered "ok No Problem, its normal, it will be fine", He did try - Fairness where deserved, He Did Taunt the NPC's , He did pull them, and he took a lot of healing. So I quietly pulled the boss away from him, and it was done, next boss and I said "Do You want to just let me Tank?" NO ANSWER, so let him start and then the same, get to the next boss and I said Again "Do You Want me to Tank This? Look at the Life 46K , I AM A TANK!".... Plastic Tank types back " Your A TANK!", "Please Do", "I Happily Fire Myself as Tank!" - Finished the Dungeon and the tank Types in "Thank you very Much, That went so much easier and Quicker with a real tank, TYFG" , No Problems, Any time!

they come in to avoid the queue in the Majority, But Some actually think that "you do not need a TANK, DPS is Enough" , YES in a lot of cases you are correct, if the others are ALL HIGH LEVEL experienced, they are going to Carry YOU. But All Low Level, and Particular Dungeons, YOU NEED THE TANK!
So some people leave, some kick them, some just fail to complete the dungeon, especially on Veteran. For Me , it makes no difference , I play as Tank or Healer, depending on how i feel. But I do understand the frustration of the queue at times as the wife plays DPS. But the fun you can have listening to the Plastic Tank defending his Position,,,, there are some very clueless DPS out there, with an over confidence in their abilities.... and It can annoy others!!

My first Veteran, was when I was actually as High Level, I was a Late Starter on dungeons as i was unsure if i could actually do it, and wanted to make sure that I was prepared, having Survived all of the Normal Ones , I went in as a Healer , First thing I did was Apologise and say this was my first Veteran, and I would Do My Best, they were all high level and very cool about it, I probably did next to No Healing, but learned a lot... Next time was not as smooth, but experience teaches you a lot!

So the Moral is simple for ME, Come in, tell everyone, and if your offered Help, TAKE IT and learn.... In the Majority ESO has a Lot of Good People, who will pause and give you advice if you need it... Listen to them, its their experience that's being passed on!!!

Oznog666

JimFord047 wrote: »

So the Moral is simple for ME, Come in, tell everyone, and if your offered Help, TAKE IT and learn.... In the Majority ESO has a Lot of Good People, who will pause and give you advice if you need it... Listen to them, its their experience that's being passed on!!!

Very good advice, but the problem is: since some weeks (or even months) there are so many players who don't either not know how to chat or look at the chat window or are not able to unterstand english.

Dragonredux

I swear some people think the Tank role makes them the main character. I still can't get over the second one, how does one person fail at everyone the Tank role does and the other two AGREE with him. It has to be a premade there's like no other conclusion unless you won the lottery of rolling with 3 clueless people.

I stopped caring about fakes anymore, that ship have long sailed at this point, but if they start blaming others for their own faults because they're too lazy to wait in queue, I will happily attempt to kick them.

Sarannah

This is why I have stopped doing dungeons completely. They are beyond broken, but ... "Play your way" is more important than players having good experiences/a good time while playing.

All other MMO's have safeguards in place to prevent this type of toxicity, and so everyone who enters a dungeon has a good time AND so everyone gets what they came for in that dungeon: Exp, gear, learning, quest, transmutes, etc.

Doubt ZOS is ever going to fix this though.

aleksandr_ESO

> My healers are All Spec'd as TANKS
> I am in a Dungeon with a False Healer
> Are you Actually a Healer - We are all dying here
> I am Running out of Magika healing you lot
> How I was A bad Healer

It seems to me that you have certain problems with healing. In normal dungeons, you can heal a group with three buttons. No one is going to die from anything other than an oneshot, but I don't think you're going to be blamed for that. And to have magicka, you need to periodically do heavy attacks. This shouldn't be a problem.
What do you mean by tank spec? That you have sets that are suitable for both heal and tank?
Healing in TESO is very easy. The healer must first of all be a buffer (because tank and heal are called support roles), and these are the right skills and sets. The lack of damage in the group is DD's fault, but a tank and a heal can make the situation worse

Pelanora

aleksandr_ESO wrote: »

> My healers are All Spec'd as TANKS
> I am in a Dungeon with a False Healer
> Are you Actually a Healer - We are all dying here
> I am Running out of Magika healing you lot
> How I was A bad Healer

It seems to me that you have certain problems with healing. In normal dungeons, you can heal a group with three buttons. No one is going to die from anything other than an oneshot, but I don't think you're going to be blamed for that. And to have magicka, you need to periodically do heavy attacks. This shouldn't be a problem.
What do you mean by tank spec? That you have sets that are suitable for both heal and tank?
Healing in TESO is very easy. The healer must first of all be a buffer (because tank and heal are called support roles), and these are the right skills and sets. The lack of damage in the group is DD's fault, but a tank and a heal can make the situation worse

Read the room dude, seriously

Sockermannen

i’ve seen this a fair bit lately aswell; people who fake tank with tank DPS and then like to act as if someone else is the problem while they themselves rack up more deaths than Sean Bean but it’s ok because ”it’s only normal lol”.

It’s always somewhat amusing because it’s rarely bad enough to where it has too much of a negative impact on the group but mostly enough impact for someone to say something and start a fuss.

MidniteOwl1913

Fake tanks are pretty awful, and I agree that just adding a taunt doesn't make up for having less than 30k health.

The tank is supposed to have enough health and shields to keep themselves alive while holding the boss. I agree as a healer you should do what you can to keep the party alive.

What I'm not sure of is how good a healer you can be while doing the job of the tank. How you get 47k health without sacrificing points/skills that you need for magika. My healers are usually about 25k health and 40k magika. Skills with an eye to buffs with some damage on the back bar. I don't need everything every time, but I don't think I would be able to be as effective a healer if I had to worry about shields and taunts.

Orbital78

It isn't the low health so much as the lack of resists, correct cp, and running solo arenas enough to understand mitigation and survival. A dps should have no issues tanking normals even solo. If you're not able to carry the group you shouldn't go out of role.

JimFord047

aleksandr_ESO wrote: »

> My healers are All Spec'd as TANKS
> I am in a Dungeon with a False Healer
> Are you Actually a Healer - We are all dying here
> I am Running out of Magika healing you lot
> How I was A bad Healer

It seems to me that you have certain problems with healing. In normal dungeons, you can heal a group with three buttons. No one is going to die from anything other than an oneshot, but I don't think you're going to be blamed for that. And to have magicka, you need to periodically do heavy attacks. This shouldn't be a problem.
What do you mean by tank spec? That you have sets that are suitable for both heal and tank?
Healing in TESO is very easy. The healer must first of all be a buffer (because tank and heal are called support roles), and these are the right skills and sets. The lack of damage in the group is DD's fault, but a tank and a heal can make the situation worse

Healer "Tank Armour", Leeching Plate - You get hit You Heal, Undertakers - You Hit You Heal Your Group, Bogdens Monster Set - You Hit a Heal even with the undertakers - It Drops and Does MORE Healing to the Group, Staff is Powered to boost Healing, CP's Either Tank or Heal or Mix - Heavy Hits Boost Magika no problem - Unless they are taking more damage and your having to raise idiots = No Hits No Magika Regen. Backed with 5 Heal buttons, 1 Taunt Button, 4 Shield Buttons, 1 Ulti Shield, 1 Ulti Heal!

its a Good Healer Setup and can off-tank a normal dungeon / Trail with No problems.

Lack of damage is all down to the DPS, But if Low level its what is to be expected, longer the kill, more the damage..

Hope it clears it up for you, twas Not meant to be about me, but a Tounge in cheek laugh at the plastics, and a way of giving them a little slack, Especially Low Levels

JimFord047

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

Fake tanks are pretty awful, and I agree that just adding a taunt doesn't make up for having less than 30k health.

The tank is supposed to have enough health and shields to keep themselves alive while holding the boss. I agree as a healer you should do what you can to keep the party alive.

What I'm not sure of is how good a healer you can be while doing the job of the tank. How you get 47k health without sacrificing points/skills that you need for magika. My healers are usually about 25k health and 40k magika. Skills with an eye to buffs with some damage on the back bar. I don't need everything every time, but I don't think I would be able to be as effective a healer if I had to worry about shields and taunts.

Nearly All of my healers are 44K Health, unless your spamming heals / The Wrong Heals! you really dop not need that much in the way of MAgika, Group Heal then an Individual if needed, or only individual, depends on the situation. Your heavy hits will return that magika in a single hit, 3 if your spamming.

A Tank Healing is not as daft as it sounds, All DPS are in range (unless they are out with a bow / staff, then they really don't get hit in any case) Templar is the BEST for this, 2 Circles Down, pop 2 shields, and your good to go... Stamina is what your most likely to run out of NOT magika, Try it, it works!

I play with a Friend who IS a Tank, for YEARS we have done the same thing, 2 Templars , drop the circles, we both stand in Both, he gets healed all the time and so do the DPS.. Normal or Veteran, we generally get through no death all the time

Sluggy

Sarannah wrote: »

This is why I have stopped doing dungeons completely. They are beyond broken, but ... "Play your way" is more important than players having good experiences/a good time while playing.

All other MMO's have safeguards in place to prevent this type of toxicity, and so everyone who enters a dungeon has a good time AND so everyone gets what they came for in that dungeon: Exp, gear, learning, quest, transmutes, etc.

Doubt ZOS is ever going to fix this though.

Agreed. I used to love dungeons. I really hate the dungeon experience now. And this is coming from someone that is used to the nonesense in Cyrodiil...

Veinblood1965

Sluggy wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

This is why I have stopped doing dungeons completely. They are beyond broken, but ... "Play your way" is more important than players having good experiences/a good time while playing.

All other MMO's have safeguards in place to prevent this type of toxicity, and so everyone who enters a dungeon has a good time AND so everyone gets what they came for in that dungeon: Exp, gear, learning, quest, transmutes, etc.

Doubt ZOS is ever going to fix this though.

Agreed. I used to love dungeons. I really hate the dungeon experience now. And this is coming from someone that is used to the nonesense in Cyrodiil...

There is no nonsense in Cyrodiil. The zone chat is quite lovely......

Desiato

Sluggy wrote: »

Agreed. I used to love dungeons. I really hate the dungeon experience now. And this is coming from someone that is used to the nonesense in Cyrodiil...

It would be an improvement if all the tanks in Cyrodiil were fake.

Thysbe

I just started to completely avoid Normal and go only Vet

It´s a lot smoother - people usually fulfill their roles, some are very good, some still learn but its much more enjoyable than plastic tank, speedrunner normal

you wont believe it - some say even "hi"

xylena_lazarow

Tanks will stop being fake when the dps stops being bad.

MidniteOwl1913

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Tanks will stop being fake when the dps stops being bad.

I don't think anything justifies a fake tank.

Metafae

I will only take my actual Tank characters to pre-made groups to do veteran dungeons, I will never take them in a random normal dungeon anymore because the number of times the DPS is just too low for my patience.

When it comes to Random Normals, I just bring my DPS with a taunt and just do basic CC and positioning to make it smooth for the rest of the team, but ultimately doing over 60-80% of the groups DPS.

I don't die because it's easy to avoid one shot mechs by blocking/shielding at the right time or simply dodging it if it's going to be a real hard hitter.

However, when I queue as a DPS in a random normal, I notice the tanks I get are just other DPS not doing these basic tanking duties, it's unfortunate and I understand the overall frustration with these fake tanks (Fanks).

LannStone

"Plastic tank"
First time I've heard that one
Love it

Hapexamendios

Plastic seems too durable.

vsrs_au

I believe Radiohead wrote a song about it, called "Fake Plastic Tanks"

Enemoriana

JimFord047 wrote: »

they come in to avoid the queue in the Majority, But Some actually think that "you do not need a TANK, DPS is Enough" , YES in a lot of cases you are correct, if the others are ALL HIGH LEVEL experienced, they are going to Carry YOU. But All Low Level, and Particular Dungeons, YOU NEED THE TANK!

Are you speaking about mostly DLC dungeons?
I used to think of myself as a fake tank (only normals, of course, and don't have most dlc dungeons - I want to make it quick, not painful). Real is "bad DD", I think. Low dps, undaunted taunt, though most time I'm able keep myself alive. Usually I get random group with at least one member with cp higher (I have is 1888), so I'm carryed, but sometimes it's my turn to carry others. So I try to taunt, attack and heal (with twilight) at one time. And in nearly all base dungeons and some dlc it's still ok, no need in three high level group members or actual tank.

(But I hate Blackheart Haven. Also has worst luck there, 90% times half of group leaves in the middle)

Pevey

Metafae wrote: »

I will only take my actual Tank characters to pre-made groups to do veteran dungeons, I will never take them in a random normal dungeon anymore because the number of times the DPS is just too low for my patience.

When it comes to Random Normals, I just bring my DPS with a taunt and just do basic CC and positioning to make it smooth for the rest of the team, but ultimately doing over 60-80% of the groups DPS.

I don't die because it's easy to avoid one shot mechs by blocking/shielding at the right time or simply dodging it if it's going to be a real hard hitter.

However, when I queue as a DPS in a random normal, I notice the tanks I get are just other DPS not doing these basic tanking duties, it's unfortunate and I understand the overall frustration with these fake tanks (Fanks).

I agree with this 100%. It's fine to be a dps/tank hybrid in normal, even optimal. But so often these days the person queued as tank is neither tank NOR dps. They are leveling toons and using the tank role to skip the queue. They die constantly.

If you've played the game for a while and know how to block, dodge, stay out of red, sure, queue as tank. But if you just power-leveled your baby toon to 50 and are now trying to level undaunted and get skill points, do not queue as tank.

It's all guessing, but in my view ZOS made their position on all this clear when they re-did inner rage a few years back and added a damage bonus to the inner beast morph. This makes life easy for dps/tank hybrids because the taunt boosts your dps, making the GCD spent on it basically a wash. Just taunt the thing already.

And, yes, I queue as tank for RND. Mostly to avoid fake fake tanks. FFTs. Just tank it. The "tanks" who panic and run from boss and then die are the same ones who say, "It's normal, it's so easy, we don't need a tank." Yes, it's easy. So just hold the boss still and stop dying.

Sluggy

Desiato wrote: »

Sluggy wrote: »

Agreed. I used to love dungeons. I really hate the dungeon experience now. And this is coming from someone that is used to the nonesense in Cyrodiil...

It would be an improvement if all the tanks in Cyrodiil were fake.

They are! They don't even taunt the boss, man!

Sluggy

Enemoriana wrote: »

JimFord047 wrote: »

they come in to avoid the queue in the Majority, But Some actually think that "you do not need a TANK, DPS is Enough" , YES in a lot of cases you are correct, if the others are ALL HIGH LEVEL experienced, they are going to Carry YOU. But All Low Level, and Particular Dungeons, YOU NEED THE TANK!

Are you speaking about mostly DLC dungeons?
I used to think of myself as a fake tank (only normals, of course, and don't have most dlc dungeons - I want to make it quick, not painful). Real is "bad DD", I think. Low dps, undaunted taunt, though most time I'm able keep myself alive. Usually I get random group with at least one member with cp higher (I have is 1888), so I'm carryed, but sometimes it's my turn to carry others. So I try to taunt, attack and heal (with twilight) at one time. And in nearly all base dungeons and some dlc it's still ok, no need in three high level group members or actual tank.

(But I hate Blackheart Haven. Also has worst luck there, 90% times half of group leaves in the middle)

Their story specifically mentioned people that weren't up to the task of actually tanking regardless of their stats. If they could hold aggro on what counts and not die doing it then it didn't matter.

MorganaLaVey

Well, all we people who cared about playing as a team and performing our role where told to form premades.
Thats what we did.

So this is what your left with. Better get used to it.

alpha_synuclein

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Tanks will stop being fake when the dps stops being bad.

No, they won't.
Because their primary goal will still be speedrunning for transmutes.

I've started doing dungeons before the 10 transmutes for rnd was introduced. The average dps of group finder dds was waaaaay lower then, but the fake tank/ speeding thing was nowhere near as common as it is now.

Yes, there are tons of players that have no clue how to dps, probably more now than before
But blaming them for the current rnd situation is a misunderstanding.

Aurielle

I only do random daily normals for the transmutes / XP, and I generally only tend to do them when I don’t have ESO plus (so I don’t get anything more complicated than WGT/ICP). I do them on a DPS/tank hybrid Arcanist WITHOUT a S&B bar, rocking Ring of the Pale Order to be fully independent and not have to rely on noob heals or fake heals. Some would call that “fake” tanking, but I taunt and turn the boss and I AOE pull the adds, so it’s real tanking, IMO. I usually do 70% of the group’s DPS and I never die. The fact that I do that much DPS on a hybrid tank build is the reason why I would never, ever take a true tank to a normal dungeon. I used to occasionally heal/DPS normal dungeons as well, and my heart always sank when I saw a 40k health tank in dual S&B bars taunting, pulling, blocking and doing nothing else — because it was always a waste, and made the run much longer than necessary.

I reserve true 40k health tanking for vet DLC content only, and I hardly ever run that these days unless I’m in a guild group with competent DDs.

Sarannah

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Tanks will stop being fake when the dps stops being bad.

In literally hundreds of normal dungeons(before I stopped doing them) as a real tank, I have only encountered bad dps a handful of times. Every other time DPS quickly improves, really quickly!

What fake tanks and fake healers do not realize is they are the cause of bad dps. When people have to expect a fake role, they have to change their build accordingly:
-10-15% dps loss: Due to fake tanks, players have to build for survival. Meaning they have to change some gear, spend a skillslot, and/or have to change CP's to counter this. This is about a 10-15% dps loss, at minimum.
-10-15% dps loss: Due to fake healers, players have to be able to heal themselves. Meaning they have to spend a skillslot for healing. This is about a 10-15% dps loss, at minimum!
-50% dps loss: Due to fake tanks, players are unable to perform their rotations well. Half the time they have to run around to not die, instead of dealing damage. This is about a 50% dps loss, often more due to death or having to keep running.
-10-15% dps loss due to non-optimal rotation/human factor. Due to fake healers/fake tanks, players cannot learn their role well or at all. Meaning the 100% dps possible output is reduced by atleast 30% due to not being able to be efficient. Only experienced players can do this, and even then it often won't be 100% efficient all the time. So I will take a low value and call it a 10-15% dps loss only.

Take the above and lets assume a person starts out with a 100% efficient rotation and would do 100k dps. Incorporate the above, and that is at the very least already an 80% dps loss at minimum. So that 100k dps is now 20k dps, even if you take the above minimum values. (Even more of a dps loss if you take the higher percentages)

So yes, bad dps is the result of fake roles.

PS: This is not even accounting for the bad experiences players have due to fake roles/speedrunners.
PPS: You can argue about my values somewhat, but they aren't far off the mark.

pklemming

If played properly a 20k health dps/tank needs zero healing in all normal dungeons and vet non-dlc. I have tanked all of them at 20k on an Arcanist. Have my taunt, debuffs, heal and shields. Allows me to put out decent dps whilst tanking, which can be helpful in random groups.

Ezhh

Sarannah wrote: »

In literally hundreds of normal dungeons(before I stopped doing them) as a real tank, I have only encountered bad dps a handful of times. Every other time DPS quickly improves, really quickly!

All I can say is that you've been very lucky, or I am very unlucky. From my experience it's a minimum 1 in 3 dungeons, and that's not counting low CP DDs or those who are not doing much but seem to be making a genuine effort.

Sarannah wrote: »

What fake tanks and fake healers do not realize is they are the cause of bad dps. When people have to expect a fake role, they have to change their build accordingly:

...

Take the above and lets assume a person starts out with a 100% efficient rotation and would do 100k dps. Incorporate the above, and that is at the very least already an 80% dps loss at minimum. So that 100k dps is now 20k dps, even if you take the above minimum values. (Even more of a dps loss if you take the higher percentages)

So yes, bad dps is the result of fake roles.

PS: This is not even accounting for the bad experiences players have due to fake roles/speedrunners.
PPS: You can argue about my values somewhat, but they aren't far off the mark.

Shortened quote a bit for neatness here, but I'd argue these values are very far off the mark. While there'll definitely be some dps loss, a player who is capable of around 100k dps (using your example above) is very likely to be capable of just adapting as they go and making it work. When you have DDs at this level normal dungeon trash often melts long before a tank could stack it and long before it does enough damage for healing to become a concern. It's not impossible for my tank (my actual real vet trial HM completing tank) to be able to do around 15k dps in a dungeon, so the idea that a 100k dps DD will be reduced to 20k dps simply doesn't add up. For myself I'd guess I lose 20% maybe 30% dps at absolute max on a normal dungeon with two fake supports who run around all over the place compared to when I have a tank stacking. It would be a lot higher on vet DLC dungeons where stacking becomes a lot more important and things actually hurt.

I want to be really clear that I don't support fake tanks (I do support tank/DD hybrid in normals/easier vets who can taunt while doing damage though) and that I suspect your figures get more and more accurate the less capable the DDs in a group are to begin with. I just don't think such a strong claim (100k reduced to 20k dps DD) helps when it doesn't hold up in practice. If this was how the numbers worked you wouldn't have capable players sailing through normals in four DD groups.