Arctic Blast and the future of Warden PvP.

RisKKR · July 13

I made a forum account today for this issue as I think strongly about the upcoming changes. I’ve mained a PvP Stamden/Magden for close to 5 years now - this year being a ton of fun as comparatively to other classes the Warden is in a comfortable state, not the absolute best but not the worst either. However after the recent patch notes I am concerned the Warden will turn back into the very low tier PvP state it was in prior to the Arctic Blast buff a couple years ago.

- Let’s start with the positives. Firstly, I actually think the Piercing Cold change is great. It rids the crazy PvP phenomenon of extremely high health Polar Wind crutch wardens who still put out decent damage - whilst not ruining the morph for tanks/healers.
- The change in giving non-ice staff wardens 6% more damage is also very nice and needed.

This really should’ve been all the proposed changes to warden and most people would be very happy. However… we all just got hit with an insane nerf instead via the changes to Arctic Blast (I believe ice staff wardens got that 4% damage nerf in order to balance out this new spammable Arctic Blast change too). I, nor the whole community it seems, can find the logic behind it all:

The devs made a claim AB is overpowered being a heal and CC “at once”, but this is false as it was already addressed in prior patches by changing the CC to be delayed; it has two huge rings of damage that pulse out and give players a big warning of the CC to come. For most players it’s easily recognisable and hasn’t been an oppressive problem, hence nobody had put forward complaints about the current state of the skill. You could literally emulate the same mechanic on any other class by pressing a burst heal, then a CC two seconds later. So in this regard AB is just good in terms of bar space.

With this nerf you simply won’t be able to get the heal off reliably even if you tried - you’d be double casting (~7k+ mag), with a 2 second delay in between, just for the burst heal. The comment the developers put forward about the skill being reworked with intention of it being ‘a CC with the occasional random, quirky, surprise burst heal every now and then’ is just awful game design. A heal or CC aren’t interchangeable mechanics; we want a CC when we want a CC and we want a heal when we want a heal…

Furthermore, doesn’t changing AB into a ‘spammable’ contradict the developer’s alleged purpose in changing the skill to begin with? It’s now not only ‘overpowered’ being a CC, Heal and DoT ‘all in one skill’, it’s now also a powerful AoE spammable too!
*Therefore I can only deduce that the initial heal of AB was not in fact removed “due to it over-performing”, but because the developers wanted to nerf the skill after this huge new AoE spammable buff for PvE (which I believe outperforms the previous Pulsar/Unstable Wall now), with no regard for PvP. I assume the devs foresaw this AoE buff with AB’s change and then decided to nerf the extra bonus of damage with ice staves down from the prior 12%.* 

So overall it seems nobody is happy right now. I’d recommend keeping the initial heal of Arctic Blast with the delayed CC, and keeping this new AoE spammable buff. Preventing PvE players from having the initial heal of AB isn’t worth breaking warden PvP over, and it wouldn’t put wardens ahead of Sorcs, DKs and Arcs in PvE anyway. After more PvE PTS testing data, if frost staff wardens still underperform give them their extra damage back too.

If this PTS change to AB isn’t contested before it goes live, PvP wardens will have to revert to the days of struggle-healing off Budding Seeds and Soothing Spores… or just give in and be forced to buy the DLC for the new crazy burst heal ‘Healing Soul’… either way say goodbye to your use of the Glacial Presence passive.

ragnarok6644b14_ESO · July 13

Man and I was excited that the templar's Hasty Prayer heals and also grants Minor Expedition...

Sounds like I should be asking for CC or damage too on that morph, haha.

React · July 13

The changes to arctic make absolutely no sense whatsoever. On live, it is already completely fine as is - a decent burst heal that saves space as the stun as well. Honestly, it's even been partially power crept as a heal by the new soul heal with vitality + resource return.

The fact that polar wind remains untouched while arguably being the single most broken overpowered heal that exists currently in PVP is absurd. They need to undo their changes to arctic and address polar wind.

I do agree that the piercing col changes are good, though. Incentivizing lower HP for more damage is an excellent concept that is healthy for the game overall.

gariondavey · July 13

Bad changes. Should be reversed.

ZDunlain · July 13

Bad changes but warden is really great on PvP and OP in some aspects and polar wind is one of those op things and it should be a self heal, it will stop the warden healers in PvP abusing it while full tank. And they change things they shouldnt change "because of PvP" when in PvP artic blast and the passive are not the real prblem lol.
For me, they are really disconnected of PvP.

RisKKR · July 13

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

Man and I was excited that the templar's Hasty Prayer heals and also grants Minor Expedition...

Sounds like I should be asking for CC or damage too on that morph, haha.

That's already a loaded skill, being a self heal, group heal and giving group minor expedition (a rarer buff too). How about we delay the minor expedition by 2 seconds after casting...

Not to mention none of your passives are neglected by not solely using Hasty Prayer. As I'd already mentioned too, Warden's do not have a viable, comparative burst heal (or even CC) apart from the new DLC's 'Healing Soul', haha.

xylena_lazarow · July 13

RisKKR wrote: »

Firstly, I actually think the Piercing Cold change is great. It rids the crazy PvP phenomenon of extremely high health Polar Wind crutch wardens who still put out decent damage

No it doesn't. Meta DW Wardens didn't use that passive to begin with, they're gonna keep running 40k hp, cross healing with Polar, and dropping shalks spin2win combos in groups. Frost builds are gutted for no reason.

RisKKR · July 13

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

RisKKR wrote: »

Firstly, I actually think the Piercing Cold change is great. It rids the crazy PvP phenomenon of extremely high health Polar Wind crutch wardens who still put out decent damage

No it doesn't. Meta DW Wardens didn't use that passive to begin with, they're gonna keep running 40k hp, cross healing with Polar, and dropping shalks spin2win combos in groups. Frost builds are gutted for no reason.

True actually yeah, the prior 2% damage for them was basically irrelevant, so it won't deter the people really dedicated to that build.

But the whole issue for everyone else revolves around Arctic Blast, not the Piercing Cold change - if it wasn't being gutted then ice staff Magdens could front bar <30k health and only be at a 4% damage done loss and back bar >30k health for more block mitigation. This is annoying damage wise but not build breaking or impossible to work around.

xylena_lazarow · July 13

RisKKR wrote: »

if it wasn't being gutted then ice staff Magdens could front bar <30k health and only be at a 4% damage done loss and back bar >30k health for more block mitigation. This is annoying damage wise but not build breaking or impossible to work around.

They're deleting the most fair ranged spec in the game, and pigeonholing it into an uninteractive degenerate block build, PvP seriously does not need permablock DD encouraged. My own Warden was stat hybrid melee spin2win front bar, ranged frost dps back bar, now I'd need to rearrange my sets to accommodate a Lightning 5pc instead of Master Ice, I figured why bother rebuilding and relearning on Warden, I'll move to a degenerate proc NB with pull sets, as ZOS intended.

And just to comment briefly on Arctic Blast, I've reread the change several times and I still have no idea what exactly it does now, really don't care either since Dazing Soul has performed so well as the stun. If there was ever a time for standardization, Arctic Blast seems like that time. Standard immediate AoE stun, standard AoE dot effect, etc.

RisKKR · July 14

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

RisKKR wrote: »

if it wasn't being gutted then ice staff Magdens could front bar <30k health and only be at a 4% damage done loss and back bar >30k health for more block mitigation. This is annoying damage wise but not build breaking or impossible to work around.

They're deleting the most fair ranged spec in the game, and pigeonholing it into an uninteractive degenerate block build, PvP seriously does not need permablock DD encouraged. My own Warden was stat hybrid melee spin2win front bar, ranged frost dps back bar, now I'd need to rearrange my sets to accommodate a Lightning 5pc instead of Master Ice, I figured why bother rebuilding and relearning on Warden, I'll move to a degenerate proc NB with pull sets, as ZOS intended.

And just to comment briefly on Arctic Blast, I've reread the change several times and I still have no idea what exactly it does now, really don't care either since Dazing Soul has performed so well as the stun. If there was ever a time for standardization, Arctic Blast seems like that time. Standard immediate AoE stun, standard AoE dot effect, etc.

If this AB change goes live, im just gonna make an obnoxious max health

RisKKR wrote: »

I made a forum account today for this issue as I think strongly about the upcoming changes. I’ve mained a PvP Stamden/Magden for close to 5 years now - this year being a ton of fun as comparatively to other classes the Warden is in a comfortable state, not the absolute best but not the worst either. However after the recent patch notes I am concerned the Warden will turn back into the very low tier PvP state it was in prior to the Arctic Blast buff a couple years ago.

- Let’s start with the positives. Firstly, I actually think the Piercing Cold change is great. It rids the crazy PvP phenomenon of extremely high health Polar Wind crutch wardens who still put out decent damage - whilst not ruining the morph for tanks/healers.
- The change in giving non-ice staff wardens 6% more damage is also very nice and needed.

This really should’ve been all the proposed changes to warden and most people would be very happy. However… we all just got hit with an insane nerf instead via the changes to Arctic Blast (I believe ice staff wardens got that 4% damage nerf in order to balance out this new spammable Arctic Blast change too). I, nor the whole community it seems, can find the logic behind it all:

The devs made a claim AB is overpowered being a heal and CC “at once”, but this is false as it was already addressed in prior patches by changing the CC to be delayed; it has two huge rings of damage that pulse out and give players a big warning of the CC to come. For most players it’s easily recognisable and hasn’t been an oppressive problem, hence nobody had put forward complaints about the current state of the skill. You could literally emulate the same mechanic on any other class by pressing a burst heal, then a CC two seconds later. So in this regard AB is just good in terms of bar space.

With this nerf you simply won’t be able to get the heal off reliably even if you tried - you’d be double casting (~7k+ mag), with a 2 second delay in between, just for the burst heal. The comment the developers put forward about the skill being reworked with intention of it being ‘a CC with the occasional random, quirky, surprise burst heal every now and then’ is just awful game design. A heal or CC aren’t interchangeable mechanics; we want a CC when we want a CC and we want a heal when we want a heal…

Furthermore, doesn’t changing AB into a ‘spammable’ contradict the developer’s alleged purpose in changing the skill to begin with? It’s now not only ‘overpowered’ being a CC, Heal and DoT ‘all in one skill’, it’s now also a powerful AoE spammable too!
*Therefore I can only deduce that the initial heal of AB was not in fact removed “due to it over-performing”, but because the developers wanted to nerf the skill after this huge new AoE spammable buff for PvE (which I believe outperforms the previous Pulsar/Unstable Wall now), with no regard for PvP. I assume the devs foresaw this AoE buff with AB’s change and then decided to nerf the extra bonus of damage with ice staves down from the prior 12%.* 

So overall it seems nobody is happy right now. I’d recommend keeping the initial heal of Arctic Blast with the delayed CC, and keeping this new AoE spammable buff. Preventing PvE players from having the initial heal of AB isn’t worth breaking warden PvP over, and it wouldn’t put wardens ahead of Sorcs, DKs and Arcs in PvE anyway. After more PvE PTS testing data, if frost staff wardens still underperform give them their extra damage back too.

If this PTS change to AB isn’t contested before it goes live, PvP wardens will have to revert to the days of struggle-healing off Budding Seeds and Soothing Spores… or just give in and be forced to buy the DLC for the new crazy burst heal ‘Healing Soul’… either way say goodbye to your use of the Glacial Presence passive.

Somebody had made a decent point to me that if the devs are adamant in this AB change, then they should MAJORLY buff leaching vines/trellis and lotus in healing power to compensate. Like literally triple the healing or something since we don't have a burst heal anymore. Most warden DDs are running leaching/trellis and lotus.

RisKKR · July 14

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

RisKKR wrote: »

if it wasn't being gutted then ice staff Magdens could front bar <30k health and only be at a 4% damage done loss and back bar >30k health for more block mitigation. This is annoying damage wise but not build breaking or impossible to work around.

They're deleting the most fair ranged spec in the game, and pigeonholing it into an uninteractive degenerate block build, PvP seriously does not need permablock DD encouraged. My own Warden was stat hybrid melee spin2win front bar, ranged frost dps back bar, now I'd need to rearrange my sets to accommodate a Lightning 5pc instead of Master Ice, I figured why bother rebuilding and relearning on Warden, I'll move to a degenerate proc NB with pull sets, as ZOS intended.

And just to comment briefly on Arctic Blast, I've reread the change several times and I still have no idea what exactly it does now, really don't care either since Dazing Soul has performed so well as the stun. If there was ever a time for standardization, Arctic Blast seems like that time. Standard immediate AoE stun, standard AoE dot effect, etc.

apologies didn't mean to reply that to you above^^ still new to this forum haha

VixxVexx · July 14

xStealthfulx · July 14

All the warden changes are horrible the passive change not only pigeon holds warden to running lower hp in PVP but the concept of having hp scaling skills is pointless with this change not only that having 6 seconds of both portions of the passives isnt good for warden in general same with artic change if it goes thru now warden's lost a reliable heal that doesnt have you needing to run polar winds which again is a HP SCALING skill allowing lower hp builds to function. The second portion of that "new" passive is no good ice staff already has block mitigation why give wardens more block mitigation when ice staff is good enough and if you account CP mitigation with this why give more block mitigation overall i would come up with a better concept to make pvper's and pver's happy on both spectrums. R.I.P ice wardens

Skjaldbjorn · July 15

xStealthfulx wrote: »

overall i would come up with a better concept to make pvper's and pver's happy on both spectrums. R.I.P ice wardens

@xStealthfulx They tried. Multiple different iterations of damage passives, both scaling % and flat % bonuses. Every single time, it resulted their "data" made them feel it was too strong in PVP, so PVE Wardens get slapped into the basement over and over again. This passive prevents that.

ZDunlain · July 15

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

xStealthfulx wrote: »

overall i would come up with a better concept to make pvper's and pver's happy on both spectrums. R.I.P ice wardens

@xStealthfulx They tried. Multiple different iterations of damage passives, both scaling % and flat % bonuses. Every single time, it resulted their "data" made them feel it was too strong in PVP, so PVE Wardens get slapped into the basement over and over again. This passive prevents that.

In fact wardern is really really strong (PvP) but man, nerf sorc and nb, they are over-overperforming.

moderatelyfatman · July 16

I don't mind that the occasional PvP build takes a hit to fix things for PvE, and vica versa. But this change is absolute garbage for all forms of the game.

Skjaldbjorn · July 16

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

I don't mind that the occasional PvP build takes a hit to fix things for PvE, and vica versa. But this change is absolute garbage for all forms of the game.

EDIT: Derp, wrong thread. Thought you were referring to the Piercing Cold passive. Nevermind.

xylena_lazarow · July 16

Worth double posting this, because 10.1 Arctic Blast is currently unplayable in PvP.

Scenario: two NBs jump me, chunking my hp into execute range. I have one gcd to get my defenses up. I press Arctic Blast, stunning one of the NBs which means no heal, but the other had popped an immovable pot. Since Arctic Blast neither stopped my attackers nor healed me, I have just spent 3780 magicka to immediately die.

Polar Wind would probably save me here, also because I would have much higher hp on a Polar setup.

RisKKR · August 12

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Worth double posting this, because 10.1 Arctic Blast is currently unplayable in PvP.

Scenario: two NBs jump me, chunking my hp into execute range. I have one gcd to get my defenses up. I press Arctic Blast, stunning one of the NBs which means no heal, but the other had popped an immovable pot. Since Arctic Blast neither stopped my attackers nor healed me, I have just spent 3780 magicka to immediately die.

Polar Wind would probably save me here, also because I would have much higher hp on a Polar setup.

Problem is, I think this is absolutely futile. Zos have already made up their mind as this was an explicit PvE change (their priority), that they loosely guised as a 'PvP balancing concern'. The devs don't even PvP competently to understand our concerns. We will either have to buy the DLC and run Healing Soul or retire our Wardens again, or in my case quit ESO. I'll make a new and updated post about it when I feel like wasting my time haha...

Skjaldbjorn · August 12

RisKKR wrote: »

We will either have to buy the DLC and run Healing Soul or retire our Wardens again, or in my case quit ESO. I'll make a new and updated post about it when I feel like wasting my time haha...

"We will either have to buy the DLC and play the new class, retire our Warden again or quit ESO."

Welcome to basically every patch for Warden since release as a PVE DPS. Enjoy your stay.

Durham · August 12

45k Vamp claw spamming, Balorgs Northern Storm drops with groups of 3 stacking healing wardens! What are we doing ZoS?

1 Warden is nothing to be concerned about currently they have the most predictable damage in the game. They are eliminating the dynamic ways of playing the class. Now it will be a very tanky and dull PVP class, that can not solo.

You will only be useful as a backup healer/or running with at least 3 Wardens waiting for a Northern Storm drop!

PhilipPloeger · August 26

Hi!

I have the Wish, that the Warden get's a useful (2nd) ground-target-AoE-Healing-Skill-morph.

The morph where you need to use 2 global-cooldowns to triggre the complete healing isn't worth it.

Kind Regards,

Philip.Ploeger.

MindOfTheSwarm · August 27

Personally I think it would be just simpler to separate Arctic Blast and Polar Wind completely.

Arctic Blast deals damage and that’s it. An Aura based DoT that lasts 20 seconds and perhaps as a bonus deals more damage to Chilled targets. Or maybe add an Execute aspect to it. No heal or stun. Pure Offence.

Polar Wind remains the heal that it is perhaps some tweaking of the numbers.

Now you have to choose heal or damage. If you choose damage, get your on demand heal from elsewhere like your mushrooms.

As for a stun just make Frozen Slab an on demand ranged single target stun. Leave Shimmering as the defensive one.

ESO_Nightingale · September 1

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Personally I think it would be just simpler to separate Arctic Blast and Polar Wind completely.

Arctic Blast deals damage and that’s it. An Aura based DoT that lasts 20 seconds and perhaps as a bonus deals more damage to Chilled targets. Or maybe add an Execute aspect to it. No heal or stun. Pure Offence.

Polar Wind remains the heal that it is perhaps some tweaking of the numbers.

Now you have to choose heal or damage. If you choose damage, get your on demand heal from elsewhere like your mushrooms.

As for a stun just make Frozen Slab an on demand ranged single target stun. Leave Shimmering as the defensive one.

You'd need to add an on demand large burst heal to yourself as well. Either by updating enchanted growth or trellis

Urzigurumash · September 1

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Personally I think it would be just simpler to separate Arctic Blast and Polar Wind completely.

Arctic Blast deals damage and that’s it. An Aura based DoT that lasts 20 seconds and perhaps as a bonus deals more damage to Chilled targets. Or maybe add an Execute aspect to it. No heal or stun. Pure Offence.

Polar Wind remains the heal that it is perhaps some tweaking of the numbers.

Now you have to choose heal or damage. If you choose damage, get your on demand heal from elsewhere like your mushrooms.

As for a stun just make Frozen Slab an on demand ranged single target stun. Leave Shimmering as the defensive one.

You'd need to add an on demand large burst heal to yourself as well. Either by updating enchanted growth or trellis

My vote:

Thematically, Mushrooms. We all want mushrooms growing at our feet.

Mechanically, Trellis, for Nature's Gift while preserving barspace.

Theist_VII · September 2

Urzigurumash wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Personally I think it would be just simpler to separate Arctic Blast and Polar Wind completely.

Arctic Blast deals damage and that’s it. An Aura based DoT that lasts 20 seconds and perhaps as a bonus deals more damage to Chilled targets. Or maybe add an Execute aspect to it. No heal or stun. Pure Offence.

Polar Wind remains the heal that it is perhaps some tweaking of the numbers.

Now you have to choose heal or damage. If you choose damage, get your on demand heal from elsewhere like your mushrooms.

As for a stun just make Frozen Slab an on demand ranged single target stun. Leave Shimmering as the defensive one.

You'd need to add an on demand large burst heal to yourself as well. Either by updating enchanted growth or trellis

My vote:

Thematically, Mushrooms. We all want mushrooms growing at our feet.

Mechanically, Trellis, for Nature's Gift while preserving barspace.

Speak for yourself.

I can’t stand the Vvardenfell theme that the class is tied to and would prefer less mushrooms, shalks, cliffracers, and netches.

Urzigurumash · September 2

Theist_VII wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Personally I think it would be just simpler to separate Arctic Blast and Polar Wind completely.

Arctic Blast deals damage and that’s it. An Aura based DoT that lasts 20 seconds and perhaps as a bonus deals more damage to Chilled targets. Or maybe add an Execute aspect to it. No heal or stun. Pure Offence.

Polar Wind remains the heal that it is perhaps some tweaking of the numbers.

Now you have to choose heal or damage. If you choose damage, get your on demand heal from elsewhere like your mushrooms.

As for a stun just make Frozen Slab an on demand ranged single target stun. Leave Shimmering as the defensive one.

You'd need to add an on demand large burst heal to yourself as well. Either by updating enchanted growth or trellis

My vote:

Thematically, Mushrooms. We all want mushrooms growing at our feet.

Mechanically, Trellis, for Nature's Gift while preserving barspace.

Speak for yourself.

I can’t stand the Vvardenfell theme that the class is tied to and would prefer less mushrooms, shalks, cliffracers, and netches.

Trellis it is then

It's got the best hand waving anyhow

NuarBlack · September 2

Can we make frozen gate useful for something other than niche gimmicks? It's my vote for giving Warden an on demand stun.